Only 4th edition specified the deadlift and that creates problems the other way. Here is some research I did a while back:

In 1st edition, you did not get to roll for exceptional strength unless you were playing a fighter. The only female fighters that could roll for exceptional strength were humans and half-orcs, with female human fighters limited to 18/50 and female half-orc fighters limited to 18/75. The only fighters not limited were male humans, who could potentially get the fabled 18/00. I don't remember ever getting it or even playing with anyone who did. The chances are 1 in 1,072 characters rolled using Method I.

One thing to note about the 18/50 limit was that 18/01 to 18/50 was all one range for the purposes of the game bonuses. In terms of how much better this was than a non-fighter 18 strength, you got: 1 extra point of damage, the ability to carry 250 additional coins, and a 4% increase in your chance to bend bars or lift gates. As you went up, the bonuses were non-linear so 18/00 was significantly better in terms of bonuses even than 18/99. 18/00 was a lot better than 18/50, by comparison you got: another +2 on your chance to hit, another 3 points of damage, the ability to carry 2,000 additional coins, an increased chance to open doors by 2 in 6 and a 2 in 6 chance to force open locked, barred, or magically held doors, and double the chance to bend bars or lift gates.

The strength ability and exceptional strength did also figure into lifting ability. A humanoid character weighing less than 90 lbs and with 18 strength could lift up to double their own weight above their head. Heavier characters could lift the greater of 180 lbs or their own weight above their head. Characters with 18/50 could lift an additional 50 lbs, whereas characters with 18/00 could lift an additional 290 lbs. This was calculated by a formula: 1 lb per point from 1-50, 4 lbs per point from 51-90, and 8 lbs per point from 91-00.

Your weight played a significant part in the weight you could lift and that too was (and still is) based on your character's sex. For male human characters, your weight in pounds was an average of 175 with a range from 139 up to 375. For female humans, your weight in pounds was an average of 130 with a range from 100 to 250.

The type of lift was described in the 1st edition Player's Handbook as a military press. With this lift, you hold the weight at your shoulders and push straight up. It was an Olympic event until 1972 after which it was discontinued due to techniques that allowed lifters to lift more weight without actually being stronger. Fast forward to today and the military press is no longer an event. But we get a pretty good correlation across all the weight categories in the men's clean and jerk event.

Men's world clean and jerk record holders
Name              | weight (lbs) | lift (lbs) | 1e AD&D STR
-----------------------------------------------------------
Om Yun-chol       |         121* |        366 |       18/95
Eko Yuli Irawan   |         134* |        383 |       18/95
Pak Jong-ju       |         148  |        414 |       18/97
Shi Zhiyong       |         161  |        437 |       18/98
Lü Xiaojun        |         178  |        456 |       18/99
Tian Tao          |         211  |        509 |       18/00+
Simon Martirosyan |         240  |        529 |       18/00
Lasha Talakhadze  |         372  |        582 |       18/90

* too lightweight to create with 1st edition AD&D rules.
+ you would need greater than 18/00 strength to achieve this lift
Lasha Talakhadze is 6' 6, taller than the tallest in 5e

The women's event correlates close to 18/90 as the peak female human strength. It shouldn't be too surprising that the women's numbers are not as accurately modelled since women's weightlifting didn't take off until long after the publication of 1st edition.

Women's world clean and jerk record holders
Name              | weight (lbs) | lift (lbs) | 1e AD&D STR
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jiang Huihua      |         108  |        260 |       18/75
Liao Qiuyun       |         121  |        284 |       18/79
Kuo Hsing-chun    |         129  |        309 |       18/83
Deng Wei          |         140  |        320 |       18/83
Zhang Wangli      |         163  |        335 |       18/81
Li Wenwen         |         326* |        410 |       18/59

* too heavyweight to create using 1st edition AD&D rules.

2nd edition got rid of the limits on male and female abilities, although there were still race based limits. For strength, the character's weight no longer factored into lifting ability except for a note that only characters with exceptional strength rolls could lift more than twice their own weight. The real world reference for lifting ability now switched to the snatch, with the example being Antonio Krastev's 1987 World Championship 476 lb lift. A strength table listed the maximum weight you could lift for each score.

The default method for rolling abilities, Method I in 2nd edition, was a straight in order roll of 3d6. This made getting the fabled 18/00 much harder with only 1 in 21,600 characters likely to get it.

Men's world snatch record holders
Name              | weight (lbs) | lift (lbs) | 2e AD&D STR
-----------------------------------------------------------
Om Yun-chol       |         121* |        298 |    18/51-75
Li Fabin          |         134* |        320 |    18/76-90
Huang Minhao      |         147  |        342 |    18/91-99
Shi Zhiyong       |         161  |        370 |    18/91-99
Mohamed Ihab      |         178  |        381 |    18/00   
Sohrab Moradi     |         212* |        410 |    18/00   
Simon Martirosyan |         240* |        439 |    18/00   
Lasha Talakhadze  |         372* |        485 |    19     

* too light or heavy to generate randomly using 2nd edition AD&D rules

Women's world snatch record holders
Name              | weight (lbs) | lift (lbs) | 2e AD&D STR
-----------------------------------------------------------
Hou Zhihui        |         108  |        209 |    17     
Li Yajun          |         121  |        225 |    18     
Choe Hyo-sim      |         130  |        236 |    18     
Deng Wei          |         140  |        258 |    18/01-50
Rim Jong-sim      |         167  |        273 |    18/01-50
Li Wenwen         |         326* |        324 |    18/76-90

* too heavyweight to generate randomly using 2nd edition AD&D rules

3e doesn't reference any record or lifting technique but the lift it describes is similar to the snatch lift. It has a table for the maximum load you can lift. Weight now is unrelated to lifting ability for humans. For halflings and gnomes, their lifting ability is reduced to 75% of the table due to their small size.

Men's world snatch record holders
Name              | lift (lbs) | 3e STR
---------------------------------------
Om Yun-chol       |        298 |     18
Li Fabin          |        320 |     19
Huang Minhao      |        342 |     19
Shi Zhiyong       |        370 |     20
Mohamed Ihab      |        381 |     20
Sohrab Moradi     |        410 |     21
Simon Martirosyan |        439 |     21
Lasha Talakhadze  |        485 |     22


Women's world snatch record holders
Name              | lift (lbs) | 3e STR
---------------------------------------
Hou Zhihui        |        209 |     16
Li Yajun          |        225 |     16
Choe Hyo-sim      |        236 |     17
Deng Wei          |        258 |     17
Rim Jong-sim      |        273 |     18
Li Wenwen         |        324 |     19


4e changes the definition again. This time your strength x 20 represents the maximum weight you can lift off the ground. This action describes a deadlift. However, deadlift amounts are usually much greater than other types of lift and would result in ridiculously high equivalent STR scores for modern human lifting records. Equally the description is the amount you can lift and still move at a slowed rate. This might match something like the Atlas stones. Continuing with the snatch as a benchmark we get the following results.

Men's world snatch record holders
Name              | lift (lbs) | 4e STR
---------------------------------------
Om Yun-chol       |        298 |     15
Li Fabin          |        320 |     16
Huang Minhao      |        342 |     18
Shi Zhiyong       |        370 |     19
Mohamed Ihab      |        381 |     20
Sohrab Moradi     |        410 |     21
Simon Martirosyan |        439 |     22
Lasha Talakhadze  |        485 |     25


Women's world snatch record holders
Name              | lift (lbs) | 4e STR
---------------------------------------
Hou Zhihui        |        209 |     11
Li Yajun          |        225 |     12
Choe Hyo-sim      |        236 |     12
Deng Wei          |        258 |     13
Rim Jong-sim      |        273 |     14
Li Wenwen         |        324 |     17


5th edition doesn't specify any type of lift.

Men's world clean and jerk record holders
Name              | lift (lbs) | 5e STR
---------------------------------------
Om Yun-chol       |        366 |     13
Eko Yuli Irawan   |        383 |     13
Pak Jong-ju       |        414 |     14
Shi Zhiyong       |        437 |     15
Lü Xiaojun        |        456 |     16
Tian Tao          |        509 |     17
Simon Martirosyan |        529 |     18
Lasha Talakhadze  |        582 |     20


Women's world clean and jerk record holders
Name              | lift (lbs) | 5e STR
---------------------------------------
Jiang Huihua      |        260 |      9
Liao Qiuyun       |        284 |     10
Kuo Hsing-chun    |        309 |     11
Deng Wei          |        320 |     11
Zhang Wangli      |        335 |     12
Li Wenwen         |        410 |     14

Quote from: Godsmonkey on August 06, 2021, 11:09:34 AMSo yes, your point about women not wanting to play super strong characters probably extends beyond your group.

This has been my experience as well.

So, it seems that the most compelling reason to put stat modifiers on female characters is not realism but the fact that it would discourage male players from playing female PCs. As this is almost always a dumpster fire.

Quote from: mightybrain on August 08, 2021, 07:52:03 PM
Only 4th edition specified the deadlift and that creates problems the other way. Here is some research I did a while back:

In 1st edition, you did not get to roll for exceptional strength unless you were playing a fighter. The only female fighters that could roll for exceptional strength were humans and half-orcs, with female human fighters limited to 18/50 and female half-orc fighters limited to 18/75. The only fighters not limited were male humans, who could potentially get the fabled 18/00. I don't remember ever getting it or even playing with anyone who did. The chances are 1 in 1,072 characters rolled using Method I.

One thing to note about the 18/50 limit was that 18/01 to 18/50 was all one range for the purposes of the game bonuses. In terms of how much better this was than a non-fighter 18 strength, you got: 1 extra point of damage, the ability to carry 250 additional coins, and a 4% increase in your chance to bend bars or lift gates. As you went up, the bonuses were non-linear so 18/00 was significantly better in terms of bonuses even than 18/99. 18/00 was a lot better than 18/50, by comparison you got: another +2 on your chance to hit, another 3 points of damage, the ability to carry 2,000 additional coins, an increased chance to open doors by 2 in 6 and a 2 in 6 chance to force open locked, barred, or magically held doors, and double the chance to bend bars or lift gates.

The strength ability and exceptional strength did also figure into lifting ability. A humanoid character weighing less than 90 lbs and with 18 strength could lift up to double their own weight above their head. Heavier characters could lift the greater of 180 lbs or their own weight above their head. Characters with 18/50 could lift an additional 50 lbs, whereas characters with 18/00 could lift an additional 290 lbs. This was calculated by a formula: 1 lb per point from 1-50, 4 lbs per point from 51-90, and 8 lbs per point from 91-00.

Your weight played a significant part in the weight you could lift and that too was (and still is) based on your character's sex. For male human characters, your weight in pounds was an average of 175 with a range from 139 up to 375. For female humans, your weight in pounds was an average of 130 with a range from 100 to 250.

The type of lift was described in the 1st edition Player's Handbook as a military press. With this lift, you hold the weight at your shoulders and push straight up. It was an Olympic event until 1972 after which it was discontinued due to techniques that allowed lifters to lift more weight without actually being stronger. Fast forward to today and the military press is no longer an event. But we get a pretty good correlation across all the weight categories in the men's clean and jerk event.

Men's world clean and jerk record holders
Name              | weight (lbs) | lift (lbs) | 1e AD&D STR
-----------------------------------------------------------
Om Yun-chol       |         121* |        366 |       18/95
Eko Yuli Irawan   |         134* |        383 |       18/95
Pak Jong-ju       |         148  |        414 |       18/97
Shi Zhiyong       |         161  |        437 |       18/98
Lü Xiaojun        |         178  |        456 |       18/99
Tian Tao          |         211  |        509 |       18/00+
Simon Martirosyan |         240  |        529 |       18/00
Lasha Talakhadze  |         372  |        582 |       18/90

* too lightweight to create with 1st edition AD&D rules.
+ you would need greater than 18/00 strength to achieve this lift
Lasha Talakhadze is 6' 6, taller than the tallest in 5e

The women's event correlates close to 18/90 as the peak female human strength. It shouldn't be too surprising that the women's numbers are not as accurately modelled since women's weightlifting didn't take off until long after the publication of 1st edition.

Women's world clean and jerk record holders
Name              | weight (lbs) | lift (lbs) | 1e AD&D STR
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jiang Huihua      |         108  |        260 |       18/75
Liao Qiuyun       |         121  |        284 |       18/79
Kuo Hsing-chun    |         129  |        309 |       18/83
Deng Wei          |         140  |        320 |       18/83
Zhang Wangli      |         163  |        335 |       18/81
Li Wenwen         |         326* |        410 |       18/59

* too heavyweight to create using 1st edition AD&D rules.

2nd edition got rid of the limits on male and female abilities, although there were still race based limits. For strength, the character's weight no longer factored into lifting ability except for a note that only characters with exceptional strength rolls could lift more than twice their own weight. The real world reference for lifting ability now switched to the snatch, with the example being Antonio Krastev's 1987 World Championship 476 lb lift. A strength table listed the maximum weight you could lift for each score.

The default method for rolling abilities, Method I in 2nd edition, was a straight in order roll of 3d6. This made getting the fabled 18/00 much harder with only 1 in 21,600 characters likely to get it.

Men's world snatch record holders
Name              | weight (lbs) | lift (lbs) | 2e AD&D STR
-----------------------------------------------------------
Om Yun-chol       |         121* |        298 |    18/51-75
Li Fabin          |         134* |        320 |    18/76-90
Huang Minhao      |         147  |        342 |    18/91-99
Shi Zhiyong       |         161  |        370 |    18/91-99
Mohamed Ihab      |         178  |        381 |    18/00   
Sohrab Moradi     |         212* |        410 |    18/00   
Simon Martirosyan |         240* |        439 |    18/00   
Lasha Talakhadze  |         372* |        485 |    19     

* too light or heavy to generate randomly using 2nd edition AD&D rules

Women's world snatch record holders
Name              | weight (lbs) | lift (lbs) | 2e AD&D STR
-----------------------------------------------------------
Hou Zhihui        |         108  |        209 |    17     
Li Yajun          |         121  |        225 |    18     
Choe Hyo-sim      |         130  |        236 |    18     
Deng Wei          |         140  |        258 |    18/01-50
Rim Jong-sim      |         167  |        273 |    18/01-50
Li Wenwen         |         326* |        324 |    18/76-90

* too heavyweight to generate randomly using 2nd edition AD&D rules

3e doesn't reference any record or lifting technique but the lift it describes is similar to the snatch lift. It has a table for the maximum load you can lift. Weight now is unrelated to lifting ability for humans. For halflings and gnomes, their lifting ability is reduced to 75% of the table due to their small size.

Men's world snatch record holders
Name              | lift (lbs) | 3e STR
---------------------------------------
Om Yun-chol       |        298 |     18
Li Fabin          |        320 |     19
Huang Minhao      |        342 |     19
Shi Zhiyong       |        370 |     20
Mohamed Ihab      |        381 |     20
Sohrab Moradi     |        410 |     21
Simon Martirosyan |        439 |     21
Lasha Talakhadze  |        485 |     22


Women's world snatch record holders
Name              | lift (lbs) | 3e STR
---------------------------------------
Hou Zhihui        |        209 |     16
Li Yajun          |        225 |     16
Choe Hyo-sim      |        236 |     17
Deng Wei          |        258 |     17
Rim Jong-sim      |        273 |     18
Li Wenwen         |        324 |     19


4e changes the definition again. This time your strength x 20 represents the maximum weight you can lift off the ground. This action describes a deadlift. However, deadlift amounts are usually much greater than other types of lift and would result in ridiculously high equivalent STR scores for modern human lifting records. Equally the description is the amount you can lift and still move at a slowed rate. This might match something like the Atlas stones. Continuing with the snatch as a benchmark we get the following results.

Men's world snatch record holders
Name              | lift (lbs) | 4e STR
---------------------------------------
Om Yun-chol       |        298 |     15
Li Fabin          |        320 |     16
Huang Minhao      |        342 |     18
Shi Zhiyong       |        370 |     19
Mohamed Ihab      |        381 |     20
Sohrab Moradi     |        410 |     21
Simon Martirosyan |        439 |     22
Lasha Talakhadze  |        485 |     25


Women's world snatch record holders
Name              | lift (lbs) | 4e STR
---------------------------------------
Hou Zhihui        |        209 |     11
Li Yajun          |        225 |     12
Choe Hyo-sim      |        236 |     12
Deng Wei          |        258 |     13
Rim Jong-sim      |        273 |     14
Li Wenwen         |        324 |     17


5th edition doesn't specify any type of lift.

Men's world clean and jerk record holders
Name              | lift (lbs) | 5e STR
---------------------------------------
Om Yun-chol       |        366 |     13
Eko Yuli Irawan   |        383 |     13
Pak Jong-ju       |        414 |     14
Shi Zhiyong       |        437 |     15
Lü Xiaojun        |        456 |     16
Tian Tao          |        509 |     17
Simon Martirosyan |        529 |     18
Lasha Talakhadze  |        582 |     20


Women's world clean and jerk record holders
Name              | lift (lbs) | 5e STR
---------------------------------------
Jiang Huihua      |        260 |      9
Liao Qiuyun       |        284 |     10
Kuo Hsing-chun    |        309 |     11
Deng Wei          |        320 |     11
Zhang Wangli      |        335 |     12
Li Wenwen         |        410 |     14

  military press is not really an analog for a clean and jerk.  if executed properly, and there is a clear cut proper for both, the C&J is a considerably bigger number for everyone than they can press.    That said, it seems the people who want a metric for what a specific strength can lift and who write D&D have never set foot in a gym in their lives.   Ah well, somehow later editions have messed up what was a fairly solid metric to determine strength with regard to lifting IMO.   

In all honesty, men are biologically better at most of the things that D&D adventuring parties get up to. Men are far stronger than women, tougher, faster, better fighters, and though more susceptible to certain illnesses and ailments than women, generally more resistant to the harsh conditions that adventurers frequently encounter. So if we really accurately modeled the differences between men and women in D&D rules, it would probably be unbalanced in the favor of men.

Should we just have male characters be more powerful than female ones. I guess we could, but I don't know if that would add fun to the game. Since magic isn't real, we could do anything we want with that and give females a benefit to magical ability, that fits with certain myths. But do we want combat camaraderie to be all male and magic characters to be all female? That sounds less fun than giving the players more flexibility and choice. We could also say that sexual dimorphism is different with other races/species, in fact at various points they've done that with the Drow. That might be interesting, but once again it seems like encouraging pigeonholing.

Of course, in real life women have a lot of advantages that won't matter in a D&D game. Women can get pregnant, give birth, and lactate to feed babies. That is necessary for a civilization but not an advantage if you're fighting orcs in a dungeon. Women live longer, which is a huge advantage in life, but seldom in a game. We could go on like that for a while discussing how the sexes are different but it would be tedious and probably useless to try to model such differences in the rules.

What is my point here? Basically that trying to model these sorts of differences, realistic as they may be, probably won't add to the fun of the game. It would probably hurt balance and undermine player choices. I'd say let players decide what their characters are like. If they want a female barbarian with a Strength of 20, it would be unrealistic but no more so than playing a wizard or an elf, and it isn't representative of females that exist within the game world. I get it's kinda fun (especially since it's forbidden and politically incorrect) to come up with different attributes for men and women, but when the rubber hits the road and a game actually starts, it seems like it might reduce fun.

It's fine and good to have damsels in distress, but that is an NPC role, if someone wants to play a female character, they probably don't want to be that except in very rare cases.

I often get this weird impression that people simply aren't very honest about what they actually like. Have you guys noticed the tendency for many people to advocate for "women are strong too! everything is the same between the sexes" one minute, and then go starry-eyed when they see the latest historical drama about that handsome pirate with his cutlass and the vulnerable but resourceful woman in her baroque dress.  😆

I also think that the more we move into the "gender is a spectrum" trend, the more people will long for a time when men were men and women were women.

"In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri."

― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Quote from: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 08:44:28 PM
  military press is not really an analog for a clean and jerk.  if executed properly, and there is a clear cut proper for both, the C&J is a considerably bigger number for everyone than they can press.

These were the records back when it was still an Olympic event:

Press        236.5 kg  Vasily Alekseyev  15 April 1972
Snatch       180.0 kg  Vasily Alekseyev  24 July  1971
Clean & Jerk 237.5 kg  Vasily Alekseyev  15 April 1972

Quote from: ShieldWife on August 08, 2021, 09:54:48 PM
In all honesty, men are biologically better at most of the things that D&D adventuring parties get up to. Men are far stronger than women, tougher, faster, better fighters, and though more susceptible to certain illnesses and ailments than women, generally more resistant to the harsh conditions that adventurers frequently encounter. So if we really accurately modeled the differences between men and women in D&D rules, it would probably be unbalanced in the favor of men.

Should we just have male characters be more powerful than female ones. I guess we could, but I don't know if that would add fun to the game. Since magic isn't real, we could do anything we want with that and give females a benefit to magical ability, that fits with certain myths. But do we want combat camaraderie to be all male and magic characters to be all female? That sounds less fun than giving the players more flexibility and choice. We could also say that sexual dimorphism is different with other races/species, in fact at various points they've done that with the Drow. That might be interesting, but once again it seems like encouraging pigeonholing.

Of course, in real life women have a lot of advantages that won't matter in a D&D game. Women can get pregnant, give birth, and lactate to feed babies. That is necessary for a civilization but not an advantage if you're fighting orcs in a dungeon. Women live longer, which is a huge advantage in life, but seldom in a game. We could go on like that for a while discussing how the sexes are different but it would be tedious and probably useless to try to model such differences in the rules.

What is my point here? Basically that trying to model these sorts of differences, realistic as they may be, probably won't add to the fun of the game. It would probably hurt balance and undermine player choices. I'd say let players decide what their characters are like. If they want a female barbarian with a Strength of 20, it would be unrealistic but no more so than playing a wizard or an elf, and it isn't representative of females that exist within the game world. I get it's kinda fun (especially since it's forbidden and politically incorrect) to come up with different attributes for men and women, but when the rubber hits the road and a game actually starts, it seems like it might reduce fun.

It's fine and good to have damsels in distress, but that is an NPC role, if someone wants to play a female character, they probably don't want to be that except in very rare cases.

Great post, fits my view exactly. Realistically, women are worse at physical activity, especially combat. Some women can match the average man, a few exceptional women can match the average male soldier; no women come close to the most exceptional male warriors.  But this does not mean female PCs in a fantasy adventure game like D&D should be inferior to male PCs. All PCs should be competent at the core game activities.

Well, for your game you can reconcile however you want, as far as how the rules match the reality of that setting.  In D&D, this is even easier than some games, because once you allow for magic in the setting such that some male humans get extraordinary strength, it is an easy side step, hardly worth mentioning as movement, to female humans can do the same thing.

That is, it is easier to rationalize why there aren't difference in the upper range of the stats than it is to provide such rules, work through the handling time issues, work through the player issues, and rationalize your new rules.  As with any game rules, a rationalization that you can live with that lets you get on with the "realistic" flaws in the model, is usually good enough.

Which brings me back to my original point that if some of the players want a rationalization that is a little closer to reality, the best way is to adjust the bottom end of the range, not the upper.  If you do that, on average, male humans are stronger than female humans in your world.  Barely touches PCs at all, and when it does, no one cares.  No one cares that female wizards are likely to be a little less strong than male wizards.  They are both weak compared to everyone else.

Given that such a rule so barely touches PC generation that it would be better to just ignore it entirely (for simplicity), you could still use it for NPCs if you want.  Yet another example of how the fetish for making NPCs/Monsters generated the exact same way as PCs is a bad design decision.

Quote from: mightybrain on August 09, 2021, 03:31:03 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 08:44:28 PM
  military press is not really an analog for a clean and jerk.  if executed properly, and there is a clear cut proper for both, the C&J is a considerably bigger number for everyone than they can press.

These were the records back when it was still an Olympic event:

Press        236.5 kg  Vasily Alekseyev  15 April 1972
Snatch       180.0 kg  Vasily Alekseyev  24 July  1971
Clean & Jerk 237.5 kg  Vasily Alekseyev  15 April 1972

   You are not understanding me when I say there is a proper form for each.  The reason military press was removed was because guys would lean so far back wards, they were essentially doing a standing bench press, which is pretty dangerous and is NOT a military press.   If you feel the two are close, I suggest giving them both a try (after getting some quality coaching on the clean and the jerk, as technique and timing are paramount, and you will quickly understand what I am saying about proper press form) for yourself, and see how close they are after a bit of training.  What a fat dude could pull off in the 70's loaded to the gills on steroids is not going to be the likely results for many people.   Edited to add:  I mention fat dude because the bigger guys were able to tolerate the insane leaning that went on back then.   Point being, the baseline person who invests a lot of time in those lifts, and who is pressing with proper form, is not going to be all that close to their clean and jerk maximum.  The Jerk is essentially a press with a "cheat" if you are doing the press properly (upright throughout, zero bounce).  Guess what...when you "cheat" at something, you do more weight.  further edit:  I would say you can test this without the clean in a power rack (because if the clean is the limiting factor, well clean and then press, but as the clean is a complex maneuver under load, it is simple to get into a power rack, press your max, and then do a jerk starting at chest after taking from the rack).

 Sorry about all that rambling on the lifting.  Again though, it originated with people who had little to no exposure to both lifts (the rules in D&D) and we have weird numbers now like a 300 pound clean and jerk (which is more than many D1 football players could do) for an average peasant. 

Basically, it's too much minutia to get bogged down in, so I'm happy for them to be equal.

Adventurers are exceptional people too. So while men are 'technically' bigger and are generally a bit stronger in 'real life'. One could say that these adventurers who are women are pretty exceptional to begin with anyway.

Plus, it seems needlessly divisive over such a minor detail in a game of make believe imo.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 09, 2021, 09:45:46 AM
Adventurers are exceptional people too. So while men are 'technically' bigger and are generally a bit stronger in 'real life'.

Men who've gone through basic training are about twice as strong in the upper body as women who've gone through basic training. For sedentary males and females it's less, about 60% stronger.  Still it's a big difference, apparently the biggest among the great apes. And of course this affects how society looks, including medieval type societies that most fantasy games base off. There are good world-building reasons for not declaring that male & female human NPCs have the same or similar average strength. But I don't think they apply to PCs in D&D type games. Maybe in very simulationist games.

I'm a simulationist at heart.  Not only in RPGs, but simulations are also a large part of my professional skills.  As such I like my games to reflect reality except where's there's a specific reason to not do so.  I have never had a complaint from one of my players about a sex or race based stat modifier or limitation, so I'm inclined to think of this as one of the issues sjw nutjobs get bent out of shape over but that does not ever come up in actual play.  If it did come up because a player wants to be Xena or Wonder Woman, I would not have a problem making an exception to the rule.

In my current game I sidestepped the issues.  The "talents" are attack, defense, magic, athletics, perception, and guile.  There really isn't a fundamental need for strength as an ability score.

I'm not sure how character generation can be simulationist. Would that mean that the same percentage of PC are wizards who are wizards in the general population? If only 1 out of 1000 medieval peasants can lift a certain rock, then only 1 out of 1000 PCs can lift that rock? It seems rather odd.

I would think that character creation is the time when you are deciding what to simulate, once that is done, then the rules could be used to simulate the fictional people within the shared fictional reality of the setting. Hopefully not with D&D rules because they are highly unrealistic in numerous regards.