Greetings!
I was reviewing some campaign notes recently, and was looking over material concerning the ubiquitous Thieves' Guild found throughout gaming and then I was thinking about expanding some material on Assassin's Brotherhoods in my campaign world. I definitely have some religions and political factions that would embrace and support such shadowy organizations!
Does your campaigns have such organizations? How do you detail them? Have they played a prominent role within an area's politics or religion?
I was recently watching an historical video about the Mongol Empire, and one program was about the Mongol invasion and conquest of Persia and most of the Middle East. One of the main highlights concerned how the Mongols annihilated the Muslim Assassins. The Assassin's Brotherhood--from the "Hashin"--had existed for two centuries. The Muslim Assassins had numerous fortresses and mountain citadels, as well as several cities and numerous towns full of their agents, support forces, and sympathizers. While the Christian Crusaders may have had some problems periodically with the Assassins, the Assassins operated mostly against various Muslim Caliphates and Sultanates. Then, as Mongol armies first entered Turkey, fighting against the Seljuk Turks, the Assassins struck against the Mongols, and assassinated an important Mongol general.
That turned out to be a very bad move, for the Assassins. A fatal mistake, indeed.
All the way from the Mongol Imperial capital at Korukoum, the command came down from the Great Khan--
"Crush the Assassins and all of their supporters, their women, their children, everyone, under the hooves of your wrath."
What then followed was that the Mongol armies entered Persia, and swept down from Turkestan, and also into Armenia. The Mongol armies purposefully annihilated entire cities and towns, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people, even remotely believed to be connected or supportive of the Assassins. Then, the Mongol armies laid siege to each and every Assassin stronghold and fortress, including at Al Amut. The Imam of the Assassins, was captured by the Mongols, and executed. His sons, his wives, all of his family, all of his seed, were all exterminated. All of the Assassins were ruthlessly slaughtered. No one was left alive. Huge piles of gore and bones were left everywhere by the Mongols, and the Mongols tore down and burned every fortress, every city, every town that supported the Assassins in any way. The Mongols never again had any problem, even so much as a whisper of revenge or resistance, from the Assassins. The Assassins had been absolutely annihilated.
It seems strange that for two Centuries, the Assassins ruled as a quasi-shadow government, spreading terror and strife throughout the Middle East, Turkey, and the Levant. The Christian Crusaders were largely helpless against the Assassins, as were the various Muslim states and powers.
The Mongols exterminated them entirely in a campaign that took the Mongols less than two years. After the Mongols had exterminated the Assassins, within just a few years, the Mongols had annihilated the capital city of the Abbassid Caliphate, the glittering Muslim city of Baghdad. The Mongols annihilated somewhere between 1,000,000 and 2,000,000 Muslim inhabitants in Baghdad. The Caliph and all of his family were all exterminated, except for his wife. She evidently was packed off to live deep inside Mongolia, where she eventually died, crushed in misery, despair, and poverty.
With the fall of Baghdad, and the earlier destruction of the Assassin's Brotherhood, the heart of Islam had been crushed by the Mongols. Most of the Near East, all of Persia, Syria, and much of the Levant would be conquered by the Mongol armies.
Nonetheless, despite such a crushing fate historically-speaking, there seems to be some excellent potential for adventure scenarios and drama in being inspired by such Assassins Brotherhoods in a campaign.
Interesting stuff!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
The Mongols treated humans the way humans treat livestock. If there's a disease in a herd, slaughter the entire herd, healthy ones and all, and burn the bodies.
For religious and kinship reasons, Muslims and Christians rarely went that far, though the sack of cities could certainly be very brutal. The Mongols were on another level. I do get the impression that the Indo-European/Wagon People/Battleaxe Culture invasion of the north European plain, previously inhabited by Early European Farmers descended from the first agriculturists in the Levant & Anatolia, may have been similarly genocidal, if not so well organised or swift.
I guess the lesson there is that Assassins & similar work best within a common cultural reference frame? The Mafia & Camorra were doing well until Mussolini nearly wiped them out, but then thrived in post-WW2 Italy and North-East USA. In my home culture the IRA, UVF etc started off like the Assassins as political/quasi-military/ideological organisations but have tended to evolve into criminal gangs, similar to the Mafia. They operate almost exclusively within their 'home communities'. There's a wealthy Italian-American family in my ex wife's home town in rural Tennessee rumoured to have Mafia links. But apart from a rather garish and un-Tennessean mansion in the middle of town (lots of fountains) they wouldn't dream of doing any Mafia-like stuff there, they'd be run out of town real fast.
Yes, I've long thought that the only way to truly eradicate the Taliban is to hire Mongol mercenaries. The late Qing military did similar things to Muslim rebels in northwest China in the 1860s-70s. They supposedly killed up to 90% of the Muslims living in the affected provinces. They later crushed a jihad in Central Asia. The survivors of that are now known as the Uighurs....
Quote from: SHARK on May 17, 2023, 04:46:55 AM
It seems strange that for two Centuries, the Assassins ruled as a quasi-shadow government, spreading terror and strife throughout the Middle East, Turkey, and the Levant. The Christian Crusaders were largely helpless against the Assassins, as were the various Muslim states and powers.
The Mongols exterminated them entirely in a campaign that took the Mongols less than two years. After the Mongols had exterminated the Assassins, within just a few years, the Mongols had annihilated the capital city of the Abbassid Caliphate, the glittering Muslim city of Baghdad.
Quote from: SHARK on May 17, 2023, 04:46:55 AM
Nonetheless, despite such a crushing fate historically-speaking, there seems to be some excellent potential for adventure scenarios and drama in being inspired by such Assassins Brotherhoods in a campaign.
It's difficult to separate fact from fiction as far as the real Nizari Ismailis. I'm pretty sure that they were on the one hand not good people, and that they did publicly kill enemy leaders -- but I am also pretty sure that they were different from the stories ascribed to them by their enemies. Notably, I think they are famous by Marco Polo's account of them -- but that seems almost certainly rumor created by their enemies.
I think their rule as a quasi-shadow government seeming strange is likely because it is at most hyperbole. The Nizari Ismailis were a minority sect compared to the ruling Seljuk Turks (during most of the state). The Nizari Ismaili survived by holding defensible strongholds and striking hard at leaders who wanted to attack them. They conducted public assassination of leaders as intimidation, but then, the Seljuk Turks used brutal tactics as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizari_Ismaili_state
Within RPGs, I don't think I've had anything like the Nizari, at least within pseudo-medieval games.
More broadly, PCs usually are the ones who are a small band who sneak into an enemy fortress and take out their leadership. They don't call this "assassination", mainly because they're good and their enemies are evil. "Against the Giants", for example, is a good example of a guerilla mission to kill enemy leadership in order to stop enemy attacks.
Quote from: S'mon on May 17, 2023, 06:47:13 AM
The Mongols treated humans the way humans treat livestock. If there's a disease in a herd, slaughter the entire herd, healthy ones and all, and burn the bodies.
For religious and kinship reasons, Muslims and Christians rarely went that far, though the sack of cities could certainly be very brutal. The Mongols were on another level. I do get the impression that the Indo-European/Wagon People/Battleaxe Culture invasion of the north European plain, previously inhabited by Early European Farmers descended from the first agriculturists in the Levant & Anatolia, may have been similarly genocidal, if not so well organised or swift.
Greetings!
"The Mongols were on another level." Oh yeah, man. Totally, my friend! It seems so quaint as the enemies of the Mongols bluster and strut about, proclaiming their arrogant defiance and scorn towards the Mongols...and then they proceed to get absolutely wrecked, not just having an army defeated, but their cities, their entire populations, being rapidly and utterly annihilated.
It's like, dude! You really don't know what you are dealing with here. The Mongols have you outclassed in every way possible, like a human stomping on an ant hill. You are utterly helpless and pathetic--you just don't know it yet. Everything that you are, your entire society, your entire people and culture, are about to be scourged and cast into the flames, and the Mongols will make it all look so easy, and your destruction will come upon you far faster than you can even comprehend.
Incredible level of genius involved. Not even with just Genghis Khan, as his descendants carried on the same ruthless policies of absolute victory. A Mongol Army was literally like a modern-day nuclear weapon.
The Naziiri Assassins look so pitiful, as their proclaimed fortress strongholds were laid siege to, all the defenders slaughtered, and then the Mongols tore every brick down, and burned everything to ashes. Rinse and repeat. No mercy, no negotiation. The Mongols gave the Assassins one opportunity to negotiate--and then, ok. The switch is flicked, and the fire comes down. Assassins are done and gone for. Them, their children, their siblings, their parents and grandparents, and their children. Your seed is annihilated, and even your memory is scourged. Even the whisper of your community being supporters--boom. Absolute annihilation. The Great Khan said no. Their defiance and threatening us, killing a Mongol general--they are judged. Exterminate them all.
It is interesting though, how the Imam of the Assassins, he was so accustomed to dealing with other Muslims, and Christians. He thought he was powerful, and strong, and always secure in his impregnable fortresses. It is equally amazing though, how all the way from Karakorum, the Mongol capital, the Great Khan sent his command down, to the legendary Mongol General, Hulagu, thousands of miles away, on the edge of Persia.
Then, Hulagu's vast Mongol army went into action. The Naziiri fortresses were all surrounded by Mongol columns pouring in from everywhere. There is no help coming, and no escape is possible. Then,doom sweeps over the Naziiri, fortress by fortress. Town after town, city after city, were encircled, battered down, and their people slaughtered like sheep. And then, as I have read, huge piles of gore, bones, and skulls, piled high. The stench so overwhelming as to be repellent for miles. Men, women, children. The young and the old. Even animals, as well. All slaughtered, and burned. All standing as an absolute symbol of the doom that awaits any that resist the Mongols.
Another quote I read..."There are no one left at all. There is no one left to even cry or moan."
I read about one Muslim city, in Kwarazam, that was annihilated. Even several years afterwards, witnesses claimed that the site was only visited by merchants passing trough, and the circling swarms of vultures and ravens. Piles of corpses, bones, and gore were piled high, and left just as it was. There was no one to bury anyone. Everything was just absolute destruction, and ashes.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Hey SHARK!
Were there specific vids on the youtube you can link? Or were these documentaries from some other source?
Can you recommend any books by chance?
Thank hombre.
I love assassins, and use the guild system, had a few PCs that were members. Haven't ever done much with them politically though. Just haven't got to it yet.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on May 17, 2023, 07:15:45 PM
Hey SHARK!
Were there specific vids on the youtube you can link? Or were these documentaries from some other source?
Can you recommend any books by chance?
Thank hombre.
Greetings!
These are *FANTASTIC* Historical videos!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
The Mongol Conquest of the Khwarazmian Empire
The Conquest of Ukraine and Marching to the Gates of Europe
Greetings!
Here are two more excellent videos, dealing particularly with the Mongol campaign against the Nazarii Assassins, and then, the Conquest of Baghdad, and the Conquest of the great Muslim Abbasid Caliphate.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
The Campaign against the Nazarii Assassins
The Conquest of Baghdad
Greetings!
Thorn Drumheller, my friend, here are just a small selection of excellent books that I recommend. I have all of these and more in my own personal library. I think this selection of books are a solid foundation for understanding the overall history of the Great Steppe, and especially understanding the Mongol Empire and its achievements.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
The Steppes, Central Asia and Far Asia (7 Books)
Central Asia in World History (New Oxford World History)
Golden, Peter B.
Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World
Jack Weatherford
Genghis Khan: The Man Who Conquered the World
Mclynn, Frank
Genghis Khan: His Conquests, His Empire, His Legacy
Mclynn, Frank
The Secret History of the Mongol Queens: How the Daughters of Genghis Khan Rescued His Empire
Weatherford, Jack
Warriors Of The Steppe: A Military History of Central Asia, 500 B.C. To 1700 A.D.
Hildinger, Erik
The Empire of the Steppes: A History of Central Asia
Grousset, Rene
Greetings!
Here is a solid overview of the Mongol Empire from Genghis Khan to Kublai Khan. Special emphasis and detail focuses on military tactics and battles on various campaigns. The program is by Kings & Generals. Commentary, Narrative, Graphics, Maps, Animations, are all excellent.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Greetings!
Here is one of my favorite historical films. Mongol: The Rise of Genghis Khan.
The film covers Temudjen's early years as a child, growing into manhood, and the battles and struggles along the way, culminating in a final battle and his rise from being Temudjen, to being Genghis Khan.
The movie has English subtitles, and is otherwise very accurate in language, equipment, weaponry, and more. The film features some really outstanding actors, excellent musical soundtrack, writing, direction, action, and cinematography. The film was done on location in Mongolia, Russia, and Kazakhstan.
It is a gripping film, showing his romance with his first and primary wife, Borte, complex family and tribal relationships, all taking place with the backdrop of Temudjen's frequent hardships and tribulations. Seeing him slowly rise to gain absolute power and authority is exhilarating. Mongolia, and the entire world, will be forever changed.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Holy crap!!! Thanks for the links and book suggestions SHARK. You're a gawd among men.
Yes, thanks, SHARK. I watched the first video on Khwarazmian Empire, and then read a little more on it.
I was intrigued to hear about the Mongol aspirations to trade routes. The video had a lot of purple prose about the fighting, but what was fascinating to me is the richness of the Mongol trade caravan to Otrar in 1218. Genghis Khan put a lot of effort into sending out a rich trade caravan to Khwarazmia, only to have its hundreds of Mongol traders slaughtered and their goods stolen.
It seems like the war with Khwarazmia was the pivot where the Mongols turned from having local ambitions against the Xia and Jin, to wanting to become a world-spanning empire like Macedonia earlier or Britain later.
I've wanted to learn more about central Asian history, which is often a huge black hole in most people's historical knowledge.
Has anyone had a Mongol or central Asian themed campaign? I could see having that as a future campaign setting.
Quote from: SHARK on May 17, 2023, 09:48:30 PM
Greetings!
Here is one of my favorite historical films. Mongol: The Rise of Genghis Khan.
The film covers Temudjen's early years as a child, growing into manhood, and the battles and struggles along the way, culminating in a final battle and his rise from being Temudjen, to being Genghis Khan.
The movie has English subtitles, and is otherwise very accurate in language, equipment, weaponry, and more. The film features some really outstanding actors, excellent musical soundtrack, writing, direction, action, and cinematography. The film was done on location in Mongolia, Russia, and Kazakhstan.
It is a gripping film, showing his romance with his first and primary wife, Borte, complex family and tribal relationships, all taking place with the backdrop of Temudjen's frequent hardships and tribulations. Seeing him slowly rise to gain absolute power and authority is exhilarating. Mongolia, and the entire world, will be forever changed.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I showed this movie in my Mongol Empire class. They were supposed to make a whole trilogy, but IIRC funding and other issues scuttled the project after the first film.
And this book, while a bit dated, is still probably the best one volume academic survey on the Mongols and contains info on the Order of Assassins: https://www.amazon.com/Mongols-Peoples-Europe-David-Morgan/dp/0631135561/ref=sr_1_1?crid=14N8COBDCSVTI&keywords=the+mongols+by+david+morgan&qid=1684425226&s=books&sprefix=the+mongols+by+david+morgan%2Cstripbooks%2C118&sr=1-1
This is also good, and written by a friend of mine: https://www.amazon.com/Mongol-Edinburgh-History-Islamic-Empires/dp/0748642366/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1684425422&sr=1-1
Quote from: Persimmon on May 18, 2023, 11:52:18 AM
Quote from: SHARK on May 17, 2023, 09:48:30 PM
Greetings!
Here is one of my favorite historical films. Mongol: The Rise of Genghis Khan.
The film covers Temudjen's early years as a child, growing into manhood, and the battles and struggles along the way, culminating in a final battle and his rise from being Temudjen, to being Genghis Khan.
The movie has English subtitles, and is otherwise very accurate in language, equipment, weaponry, and more. The film features some really outstanding actors, excellent musical soundtrack, writing, direction, action, and cinematography. The film was done on location in Mongolia, Russia, and Kazakhstan.
It is a gripping film, showing his romance with his first and primary wife, Borte, complex family and tribal relationships, all taking place with the backdrop of Temudjen's frequent hardships and tribulations. Seeing him slowly rise to gain absolute power and authority is exhilarating. Mongolia, and the entire world, will be forever changed.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I showed this movie in my Mongol Empire class. They were supposed to make a whole trilogy, but IIRC funding and other issues scuttled the project after the first film.
Greetings!
Persimmon!!! My friend! Don't you just LOVE this awesome film? You showed it in your Mongol Empire class??? OOH RAH! OUTSTANDING!
How did your class like the film?
Yes, very sad that they could not continue on with the trilogy. I think it is a landmark historical film. I'mso tickled at all the crazy little details that these folks got right! Even including the Mongol's spirituality, like when Temudjen would encounter the WOLF up on Tengri's holy mountain! I roared when I saw that! Such awesome touches like that. The badass scimitars, the weaponry, the Mongolian language.
And, who can forget BORTE? That girl showed monumental courage and loyalty all across the board, and super cunning and shrewdness. Damn, what a woman, you know?
Such an awesome movie!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
My class had mixed thoughts on the film, finding it too much of a love story without enough bloodshed. But that battle scene at the end in the storm is pretty freaking epic.
Sadly I tried to offer a course on the Mongols at my current university and there was zero interest so I had to teach something else. Sad how ignorant provincials delight in remaining ignorant provincials. There's declining interest in history anyhow, but if it's not US from the Civil War onwards, it's impossible to fill anymore and even those classes often don't fill. Just 7-8 years ago that wasn't the case. Alas!
Quote from: Persimmon on May 18, 2023, 11:58:31 AM
And this book, while a bit dated, is still probably the best one volume academic survey on the Mongols and contains info on the Order of Assassins: https://www.amazon.com/Mongols-Peoples-Europe-David-Morgan/dp/0631135561/ref=sr_1_1?crid=14N8COBDCSVTI&keywords=the+mongols+by+david+morgan&qid=1684425226&s=books&sprefix=the+mongols+by+david+morgan%2Cstripbooks%2C118&sr=1-1
This is also good, and written by a friend of mine: https://www.amazon.com/Mongol-Edinburgh-History-Islamic-Empires/dp/0748642366/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1684425422&sr=1-1
Greetings!
I have them both on order now, my friend! Awesome!
Thank you for the suggestions, Persimmon!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on May 19, 2023, 03:00:16 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on May 18, 2023, 11:58:31 AM
And this book, while a bit dated, is still probably the best one volume academic survey on the Mongols and contains info on the Order of Assassins: https://www.amazon.com/Mongols-Peoples-Europe-David-Morgan/dp/0631135561/ref=sr_1_1?crid=14N8COBDCSVTI&keywords=the+mongols+by+david+morgan&qid=1684425226&s=books&sprefix=the+mongols+by+david+morgan%2Cstripbooks%2C118&sr=1-1
This is also good, and written by a friend of mine: https://www.amazon.com/Mongol-Edinburgh-History-Islamic-Empires/dp/0748642366/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1684425422&sr=1-1
Greetings!
I have them both on order now, my friend! Awesome!
Thank you for the suggestions, Persimmon!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Same, all these books (along with SHARK's suggestions) are either wish listed or ordered.......now just need to find the room to put them when they arrive.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on May 19, 2023, 08:52:54 AM
Quote from: SHARK on May 19, 2023, 03:00:16 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on May 18, 2023, 11:58:31 AM
And this book, while a bit dated, is still probably the best one volume academic survey on the Mongols and contains info on the Order of Assassins: https://www.amazon.com/Mongols-Peoples-Europe-David-Morgan/dp/0631135561/ref=sr_1_1?crid=14N8COBDCSVTI&keywords=the+mongols+by+david+morgan&qid=1684425226&s=books&sprefix=the+mongols+by+david+morgan%2Cstripbooks%2C118&sr=1-1
This is also good, and written by a friend of mine: https://www.amazon.com/Mongol-Edinburgh-History-Islamic-Empires/dp/0748642366/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1684425422&sr=1-1
Greetings!
I have them both on order now, my friend! Awesome!
Thank you for the suggestions, Persimmon!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Same, all these books (along with SHARK's suggestions) are either wish listed or ordered.......now just need to find the room to put them when they arrive.
Greetings!
Yes. I love reading books. It is also a joy to collect them. So, I like buying them and having them in my personal library. I don't think I am satisfied with borrowing books from libraries.
Have you watched the videos I linked? What do you think of the videos?
And the wonderful film, Mongol?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Persimmon on May 18, 2023, 07:01:23 PM
My class had mixed thoughts on the film, finding it too much of a love story without enough bloodshed. But that battle scene at the end in the storm is pretty freaking epic.
Sadly I tried to offer a course on the Mongols at my current university and there was zero interest so I had to teach something else. Sad how ignorant provincials delight in remaining ignorant provincials. There's declining interest in history anyhow, but if it's not US from the Civil War onwards, it's impossible to fill anymore and even those classes often don't fill. Just 7-8 years ago that wasn't the case. Alas!
Greetings!
Persimmon, I am saddened to hear of what deep rot and corruption has swept into our universities. Earlier tonight, a friend of mine joined me for some whiskey and some cigars. We talked current events, politics, and education. I explained to him what you have described here. It is mind blowing. I recall reading a comment somewhere, when discussing the whole Afro-centrism, Black Cleopatra BS, and Liberal rot within our education, and the commenter said--"They all think that "world history" doesn't exist, and American history begins at the Civil War." That commentary obviously came to my mind when I read your own *ironically timed* testimony. It's all part of this "Black, Black, Black" everything, and it is all extremely focused on American history, and Black slavery. That's it. There is nothing else, and no one else even matters. Everyone, and everything else--is entirely irrelevant.
Your commentary brought to my mind some of my own experiences at my university years and years ago. I had a "Graduation Requirement" of taking any combination of two classes about minorities, multiculturalism BS, or Women's Studies. I took two BS women Studies classes. Here I am, a senior, getting ready to graduate, and I have to take these moron classes. Listening to a DR. Professor chick bloviate with all academic seriousness and authority about how "Women are just as strong as men" and blah, blah, blah. I used to wonder, throughout my courses in Political Science, English, and History--as well as science classes like Biology--and Philosophy classes--everyone was on the same page, and papers, evidence, knowledge, facts and truth were essentially transferable. One class wouldn't discount what some other class in a different field had said.
Until I stepped into a Women's Studies class, or went over to sit in on a lecture given for a Black Studies class. Suddenly, I walked into the an episode of the Twilight Zone. These classes--by proud, arrogant, smug Ph.D. Professors--tried to shovel absolute nonsense and BS to the entire class. 90% of the students in these classes gulped it down. I, of course, had something to say. I could not believe how these people lie, lie, lie. They are absolute FRAUDS. If I gave *ANY* paper I wrote in these corrupt classes to *ANY* of my other professors--I would have been unceremoniously failed, and dressed down for my academic laziness, and seeking to peddle total BS and nonsense. I can imagine the shocked "WTF?" looks my other professors would have given me. Of course, no such thing ever occurred, because I was educated and trained properly, by solid, strong professors that were excellent, professional scholars and fine men, and women. However, that wasn't the case in the Multicultural Studies and Women's Studies courses. Their entire departments were full of frauds, Marxism, Feminism, and absolute BS.
That experience made me wonder, however, and forgive my digression--but where are all of the OTHER PROFESSORS that embrace Truth? Why are they not stomping these Fraudulent, BS professors out of the university? How can these people even be hired? How can thy promote such LIES and INTELLECTUAL FRAUD to students? These jackasses keep their jobs, even! No getting fired! WTF? These morons even receive academic awards, and oh, so much slobbering and obsequious, Grima-Wormtongue praise! These academic frauds get TENURE. They are GIVEN POWER AND GLORY AND PRESTIGE. I wouldn't let these fraudulent professors teach kids how to play with Playdoh, let alone genuine academic classes in a university.
I say that as a verbose tangent on how it is also these same kind of professors that are promoting this evil, twisted, pathetic hatred of truth, facts, evidence, shrewd judgment, academic balance, sober historical and academic scrutiny--a cautious, strict view of evidence, testimony, and sources. These professors actively HATE YOU. They sneer, and mock, and despise genuine history classes. They actively work and encourage their students to avoid genuine history classes and they lobby against students taking *any* kind of courses that are not firmly swallowed up by Marxism, Feminism, Afro-centrism, blah, blah, blah. And, sadly, since so many students "love" these professors, worshipping them, and viewing them as "Cool and Hip" professors--they embrace these hostile attitudes. I know something of what this feels like--when I had Liberal, Feminist, Marxist professors ask me about my own views about history were, historiography, and the schools of history--I responded to them honestly, and forthrightly.
I embraced the Traditionalist School. (Are you surprised?)
They, of course, looked at me upon learning this with an attitude that you can no doubt imagine well. Yeah, in these special classes, I had to work extra hard just to get a passing grade, taking the hit to my excellent GPA, just so I could be done with them and move on. It was a thoroughly unpleasant experience, I can assure you.
It is so frustrating, and sad, that so many students nowadays have zero interest in truth, real history, and world history. It is mind boggling how, they reject truth and exchange it for a fiction instead. No, no, we don't want to learn about real history, real cultures, real struggle, real people that actually existed, and did great things--no. We want gentle jello spoon fed to us, that has been drenched in Marxist propaganda and outright lies.
There are all kinds of great events, people, and things going on in Mongolia. The Mongol Empire changed the entire world. Warfare, cultures, religious exchanges, economics, on and on. The impact and scope is staggering!
But no one is interested in learning about the Mongol Empire?
I need to make me some fresh coffee, and light my pipe, my friend. I hope you at least get some entertainment from my rant and questions.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Shark,
The problem, as I'm sure you know, is that the Leftist SJWs completely dominate the universities, particularly in the Humanities fields. So if you're not one of them you are kept off committees, denied sabbaticals, overlooked for awards and recognitions, etc. As a case in point, I recently applied for a "Distinguished Professorship" at my university, which would have granted release time and extra salary to complete a book. It's theoretically reserved for senior professors with the highest credentials. I decided to apply despite my misgivings as the dean in charge of granting the award doesn't like me because I refuse to tow the leftist line in curriculum committee discussions. This past year I was the only person (of 15) to question why the music program needed an entire required class in Rap & Hip Hop Awareness. I simply asked why they don't teach "cultural awareness" in all their classes. The professor proposing the class literally had no response and they passed the class anyhow by a 14 to 1 vote. Later I got pushback for my proposal on a Survey History of Asia to 1500 because it was a "course that only I was qualified to teach." They wanted "more generic" offerings. I managed to push it through by pushing the diversity card, but it was ridiculous to even be challenged.
So anyhow, I applied for the Professorship. In my time at the university I have published more than anyone else in my department. My seventh book is just going into production. I already have a contract for the next one, which will be a history of the Three Feudatories Rebellion (1673-1681) in China. I have international standing in my field. All my monographs are being translated into Chinese, which is a big deal for a white guy like me. I'm a board member of The Chinese Military History Society, which I also helped to found. I'm Senior Project Adviser to the Aftermath Project at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, which studies the repercussions of Japan's invasion of Korea in the 1590s. But of course I didn't get the professorship. Not sure who did, but I suspect it was one of the English profs from the department the dean was in because they study things with "more resonance for our students." And they like to give this award to people to help them get promoted, which makes no sense if it's "distinguished." And ironically the only people who have finished books with this grant in the past 15 years have been the other military historians in my Center for the Study of War & Society.
Sorry for the rant, but I knew you could appreciate it!
Quote from: Persimmon on May 20, 2023, 09:00:01 AM
Shark,
The problem, as I'm sure you know, is that the Leftist SJWs completely dominate the universities, particularly in the Humanities fields. So if you're not one of them you are kept off committees, denied sabbaticals, overlooked for awards and recognitions, etc. As a case in point, I recently applied for a "Distinguished Professorship" at my university, which would have granted release time and extra salary to complete a book. It's theoretically reserved for senior professors with the highest credentials. I decided to apply despite my misgivings as the dean in charge of granting the award doesn't like me because I refuse to tow the leftist line in curriculum committee discussions. This past year I was the only person (of 15) to question why the music program needed an entire required class in Rap & Hip Hop Awareness. I simply asked why they don't teach "cultural awareness" in all their classes. The professor proposing the class literally had no response and they passed the class anyhow by a 14 to 1 vote. Later I got pushback for my proposal on a Survey History of Asia to 1500 because it was a "course that only I was qualified to teach." They wanted "more generic" offerings. I managed to push it through by pushing the diversity card, but it was ridiculous to even be challenged.
So anyhow, I applied for the Professorship. In my time at the university I have published more than anyone else in my department. My seventh book is just going into production. I already have a contract for the next one, which will be a history of the Three Feudatories Rebellion (1673-1681) in China. I have international standing in my field. All my monographs are being translated into Chinese, which is a big deal for a white guy like me. I'm a board member of The Chinese Military History Society, which I also helped to found. I'm Senior Project Adviser to the Aftermath Project at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, which studies the repercussions of Japan's invasion of Korea in the 1590s. But of course I didn't get the professorship. Not sure who did, but I suspect it was one of the English profs from the department the dean was in because they study things with "more resonance for our students." And they like to give this award to people to help them get promoted, which makes no sense if it's "distinguished." And ironically the only people who have finished books with this grant in the past 15 years have been the other military historians in my Center for the Study of War & Society.
Sorry for the rant, but I knew you could appreciate it!
Greetings!
Oh yes. So sad, and frustrating, Persimmon! It is mind bogging and a huge tragedy watching our entire school system become blasted through with such filth and corruption! I remember that several of my good professors and mentors o mine, we would be having lunch together, and they would seriously and earnestly tell me, that if I went on to get my Ph.D in Ancient History, that I would be best advised finding a position in a small, conservative religious school, or one of the old universities that still prided themselves on being Military Schools--or at least greatly celebrated their Ancient History and Military History programs and sub-schools. In truth, there were not many of them to really choose from. A few back east, a few in the South, and a few in Texas. I had several of them at the time send me admissions and invitations to join them. I was surprised to see that Texas A&M wanted me, too. Alas! My academic mentors explained to me that the academic environment, professionally, was becoming increasingly politically Leftist, and actively hostile towards any Conservatives, from any discipline. That was over 25 years ago, my friend. Sad to see where we are at now, isn't it?
It also provides fuel for my ranting belief that 50% or more of humanity are hopelessly lost, stupid, brutal and simple animals, barely above apes. They seek only to slake themselves on sex, eating, a house, and being entertained. That is all that they care about, and that I all that they *can* care about. Their minds and cognitive capacities are simply burnt out, and reduced to just above minimal functioning. That is what 50% and more of our society is composed of. It saddens me to think that we are really here, at such a dark and dismal place.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Persimmon on May 20, 2023, 09:00:01 AM
I'm a board member of The Chinese Military History Society, which I also helped to found. I'm Senior Project Adviser to the Aftermath Project at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, which studies the repercussions of Japan's invasion of Korea in the 1590s. But of course I didn't get the professorship. Not sure who did, but I suspect it was one of the English profs from the department the dean was in because they study things with "more resonance for our students." And they like to give this award to people to help them get promoted, which makes no sense if it's "distinguished." And ironically the only people who have finished books with this grant in the past 15 years have been the other military historians in my Center for the Study of War & Society.
Sorry about your Mongol history class, Persimmon. At this point, I'm neither a historian nor an academic - but I appreciate historical studies. In my family, the third generation are pretty interested in history. I have a nephew who majored in history and is currently living in Taiwan improving his Chinese and teaching there. I'm checking out the Aftermath project now - I'm very into Korean history.
I feel like a lot of the current generation have lost studying the past for its own sake, and are focused only on current political differences. Within the U.S. especially, the intensity of partisan politics has intensified a lot over the past 25 years or so.
Would you be interested in a thread on Mongol and/or Central Asian based RPGs? I'd love some recommendations.
Quote from: jhkim on May 20, 2023, 11:10:01 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on May 20, 2023, 09:00:01 AM
I'm a board member of The Chinese Military History Society, which I also helped to found. I'm Senior Project Adviser to the Aftermath Project at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, which studies the repercussions of Japan's invasion of Korea in the 1590s. But of course I didn't get the professorship. Not sure who did, but I suspect it was one of the English profs from the department the dean was in because they study things with "more resonance for our students." And they like to give this award to people to help them get promoted, which makes no sense if it's "distinguished." And ironically the only people who have finished books with this grant in the past 15 years have been the other military historians in my Center for the Study of War & Society.
Sorry about your Mongol history class, Persimmon. At this point, I'm neither a historian nor an academic - but I appreciate historical studies. In my family, the third generation are pretty interested in history. I have a nephew who majored in history and is currently living in Taiwan improving his Chinese and teaching there. I'm checking out the Aftermath project now - I'm very into Korean history.
I feel like a lot of the current generation have lost studying the past for its own sake, and are focused only on current political differences. Within the U.S. especially, the intensity of partisan politics has intensified a lot over the past 25 years or so.
Would you be interested in a thread on Mongol and/or Central Asian based RPGs? I'd love some recommendations.
Are there any Mongol-based RPGs? Obviously you have The Horde Boxed set for AD&D and the Ethengar Gazetteer. Some of the Conan RPGs have cultures with obvious Mongol influences and there's the Unicorn clan from L5R. That's all I can think of, off the top of my head.
Incidentally, you might be interested in an indie supplement for 5e that was based on Korean history & culture: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/350882/The-Koryo-Hall-of-Adventures-5e-Compatible-Campaign-Setting
Quote from: SHARK on May 19, 2023, 03:57:38 PM
Greetings!
Yes. I love reading books. It is also a joy to collect them. So, I like buying them and having them in my personal library. I don't think I am satisfied with borrowing books from libraries.
Have you watched the videos I linked? What do you think of the videos?
And the wonderful film, Mongol?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Oh, indeed. The vids have been very elucidating. Just haven't watched the film yet. Thanks again!
Quote from: Persimmon on May 20, 2023, 09:00:01 AM
Shark,
The problem, as I'm sure you know, is that the Leftist SJWs completely dominate the universities, particularly in the Humanities fields. So if you're not one of them you are kept off committees, denied sabbaticals, overlooked for awards and recognitions, etc. As a case in point, I recently applied for a "Distinguished Professorship" at my university, which would have granted release time and extra salary to complete a book. It's theoretically reserved for senior professors with the highest credentials. I decided to apply despite my misgivings as the dean in charge of granting the award doesn't like me because I refuse to tow the leftist line in curriculum committee discussions. This past year I was the only person (of 15) to question why the music program needed an entire required class in Rap & Hip Hop Awareness. I simply asked why they don't teach "cultural awareness" in all their classes. The professor proposing the class literally had no response and they passed the class anyhow by a 14 to 1 vote. Later I got pushback for my proposal on a Survey History of Asia to 1500 because it was a "course that only I was qualified to teach." They wanted "more generic" offerings. I managed to push it through by pushing the diversity card, but it was ridiculous to even be challenged.
So anyhow, I applied for the Professorship. In my time at the university I have published more than anyone else in my department. My seventh book is just going into production. I already have a contract for the next one, which will be a history of the Three Feudatories Rebellion (1673-1681) in China. I have international standing in my field. All my monographs are being translated into Chinese, which is a big deal for a white guy like me. I'm a board member of The Chinese Military History Society, which I also helped to found. I'm Senior Project Adviser to the Aftermath Project at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, which studies the repercussions of Japan's invasion of Korea in the 1590s. But of course I didn't get the professorship. Not sure who did, but I suspect it was one of the English profs from the department the dean was in because they study things with "more resonance for our students." And they like to give this award to people to help them get promoted, which makes no sense if it's "distinguished." And ironically the only people who have finished books with this grant in the past 15 years have been the other military historians in my Center for the Study of War & Society.
Sorry for the rant, but I knew you could appreciate it!
Persimmon, it's truly tragic to hear this. I would love to say I'm surprised......but I'm not. The rot infests everywhere. Education, hobby, churches.....all in the name of inclusion and diversity. In the left's desire to force inclusion they're actually fomenting segregation. But eh.....another topic for another day.
UK academia is only fractionally less extreme than USA. And there has definitely been a strong leftwards shift in the decades I've worked in academia. In the mid-late 1990s my (gay) PhD supervisor was a right-wing Eurosceptic Conservative! Back at Oxford in the early 1990s, one of our law tutors openly mocked Andrea Dworkin & Catherine McKinnon.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on May 21, 2023, 10:47:07 AM
Quote from: SHARK on May 19, 2023, 03:57:38 PM
Greetings!
Yes. I love reading books. It is also a joy to collect them. So, I like buying them and having them in my personal library. I don't think I am satisfied with borrowing books from libraries.
Have you watched the videos I linked? What do you think of the videos?
And the wonderful film, Mongol?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Oh, indeed. The vids have been very elucidating. Just haven't watched the film yet. Thanks again!
Greetings!
OUTSTANDING MY FRIEND! I'm glad that you have enjoyed them. The narration, the ART, the Music, just are really incredible, and so enjoyable. All in addition to solid historical truth. Really good stuff!
"Crush them all under the hooves of your wrath!"
*Laughing* How is that not a an awesome quote?
It's funny, too. Who knew that the Mongols were doing memes back then, right? *Laughing*
I'm always amazed at how thorough the Mongols are, though. It is also interesting to see how the Mongols--previously, these filthy, primitive, factionalized barbarians--take absolutely fanatical loyalty, discipline, and professionalism--and ruthlessness--to a whole different level. I'm always thinking of this, comparing the Mongols to say, the Muslim Caliphates, or the European states. They so often look like amateurs by comparison. So many of the Mongol's opponents are plagued by ideas, outmoded thinking, strife, and pettiness--that the Mongols have entirely left behind.
There are some solid reasons why more than one historian has described the Mongol Horde as being the age's first, truly "Modern" military force. I'd say of the "Era"--I think Rome was certainly close to being a professional military force, even by "Modern" standards. But the Mongols came over a thousand years after Rome, so yeah. The Mongols were definitely a game changer.
That's why in the US military, we also study the Romans and the Mongols.
I also enjoyed the Assassin Campaign video. Amazing how determined and ruthless the Mongols were!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: jhkim on May 18, 2023, 10:59:09 AM
Yes, thanks, SHARK. I watched the first video on Khwarazmian Empire, and then read a little more on it.
I was intrigued to hear about the Mongol aspirations to trade routes. The video had a lot of purple prose about the fighting, but what was fascinating to me is the richness of the Mongol trade caravan to Otrar in 1218. Genghis Khan put a lot of effort into sending out a rich trade caravan to Khwarazmia, only to have its hundreds of Mongol traders slaughtered and their goods stolen.
It seems like the war with Khwarazmia was the pivot where the Mongols turned from having local ambitions against the Xia and Jin, to wanting to become a world-spanning empire like Macedonia earlier or Britain later.
I've wanted to learn more about central Asian history, which is often a huge black hole in most people's historical knowledge.
Has anyone had a Mongol or central Asian themed campaign? I could see having that as a future campaign setting.
Greetings!
Jhkim, I have started a separate Thread on Central Asian Steppe Campaigns in the main menu.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on May 17, 2023, 09:48:30 PM
Greetings!
Here is one of my favorite historical films. Mongol: The Rise of Genghis Khan.
The film covers Temudjen's early years as a child, growing into manhood, and the battles and struggles along the way, culminating in a final battle and his rise from being Temudjen, to being Genghis Khan.
The movie has English subtitles, and is otherwise very accurate in language, equipment, weaponry, and more. The film features some really outstanding actors, excellent musical soundtrack, writing, direction, action, and cinematography. The film was done on location in Mongolia, Russia, and Kazakhstan.
It is a gripping film, showing his romance with his first and primary wife, Borte, complex family and tribal relationships, all taking place with the backdrop of Temudjen's frequent hardships and tribulations. Seeing him slowly rise to gain absolute power and authority is exhilarating. Mongolia, and the entire world, will be forever changed.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Greetings!
Here is the I'm you need to see, S'mon!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on May 24, 2023, 07:07:58 PM
Quote from: SHARK on May 17, 2023, 09:48:30 PM
Greetings!
Here is one of my favorite historical films. Mongol: The Rise of Genghis Khan.
The film covers Temudjen's early years as a child, growing into manhood, and the battles and struggles along the way, culminating in a final battle and his rise from being Temudjen, to being Genghis Khan.
The movie has English subtitles, and is otherwise very accurate in language, equipment, weaponry, and more. The film features some really outstanding actors, excellent musical soundtrack, writing, direction, action, and cinematography. The film was done on location in Mongolia, Russia, and Kazakhstan.
It is a gripping film, showing his romance with his first and primary wife, Borte, complex family and tribal relationships, all taking place with the backdrop of Temudjen's frequent hardships and tribulations. Seeing him slowly rise to gain absolute power and authority is exhilarating. Mongolia, and the entire world, will be forever changed.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Greetings!
Here is the I'm you need to see, S'mon!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Blocked in the UK/EU by Beta Film GmbH, sadly!
QuoteFor religious and kinship reasons, Muslims and Christians rarely went that far, though the sack of cities could certainly be very brutal. The Mongols were on another level. I do get the impression that the Indo-European/Wagon People/Battleaxe Culture invasion of the north European plain, previously inhabited by Early European Farmers descended from the first agriculturists in the Levant & Anatolia, may have been similarly genocidal, if not so well organised or swift.
Doubtful. Indoeuropeans took control over most of Europe - but Neolithic Farmers with few exceptions like Celtic invasion on Ireland were subjugated and assimilated. It's seen quite nice on genetic level - IE haplogroup R1 dominates most Europe in male lineages, but in terms of overall genetics - southern Europe can be between 60 to 90% of overall Neolithic DNA. They were very populous people for their times and IE prefered to vassalize them, rather than destroy them.
So did Mongols - those grand campaigns of destruction were done against opponents, traitors and commonly when Mongols envoys were disrespected.
But most of population of Mongolian Empire stayed in their original form.
Also ability to do such massive actions were part of Temujin genius - as he organised his soldiers in very professional formations under strict code of conduct - they were most pro army around the world - and they were massive because every adult men among nomadic Mongols and Turks was both shepard and warrior. So when Europeans and Muslims could mobilize 5-10% of men, Genghis Khan could mobilize whole nations. Neither Muslims nor Crusaders had forces to just overwhelm Assassins all at once. Mongols did.
QuoteYes, I've long thought that the only way to truly eradicate the Taliban is to hire Mongol mercenaries. The late Qing military did similar things to Muslim rebels in northwest China in the 1860s-70s. They supposedly killed up to 90% of the Muslims living in the affected provinces. They later crushed a jihad in Central Asia. The survivors of that are now known as the Uighurs....
Not sure if there are any mercenaries in Mongolia to do it.
Alas I also think it's way easier to genocide cities and strongholds than hideouts of highlander clans in part of tallest mountains of world.
Pashto folk are well accustomed to it and no one through millenia managed to root them out. Even with modern tech NATO forces were unable to really find all those hidden places.
Quote from: Wrath of God on June 13, 2023, 05:21:20 PM
Doubtful. Indoeuropeans took control over most of Europe - but Neolithic Farmers with few exceptions like Celtic invasion on Ireland were subjugated and assimilated. It's seen quite nice on genetic level - IE haplogroup R1 dominates most Europe in male lineages, but in terms of overall genetics - southern Europe can be between 60 to 90% of overall Neolithic DNA.
I did specify the North European Plain, where there seems to have been near-complete genetic replacement.
Quote from: S'mon on June 13, 2023, 05:35:16 PM
Quote from: Wrath of God on June 13, 2023, 05:21:20 PM
Doubtful. Indoeuropeans took control over most of Europe - but Neolithic Farmers with few exceptions like Celtic invasion on Ireland were subjugated and assimilated. It's seen quite nice on genetic level - IE haplogroup R1 dominates most Europe in male lineages, but in terms of overall genetics - southern Europe can be between 60 to 90% of overall Neolithic DNA.
I did specify the North European Plain, where there seems to have been near-complete genetic replacement.
Greetings!
Yes, S'mon! There were some Farmer Peoples that managed to survive in Sardinia! *Laughing* As far as Southern Europe, well, the Celts, the Greeks, and the Romans are all INDO-EUROPEAN. So, while the Indo-European armies may have focused on Northern Europe, they conquered most of Southern Europe as well. The Celts were all through Gaul, Northern Iberia, Northern Italy, Illyria, Dacia, parts of Greece, and even extended into Northern Turkey--where the land of Galatia was established, namesake for the Biblical Book of Galatians, and known well into the Dark Ages even for being a uniquely Celtic people, right there in the middle of Northern Turkey! *Laughing* I would say such proves that the Indo-European Conquest was very extensive.
Wrath of God's take away about genetics studies may have some merit, but it is at best a minor element. History, Language, Religion, from all the major areas of Europe are Indo-European. That's why the only remnants of the Farmer People according to Historians, Linguists, and Archaeologists, are the Sardinians and some potential tribes in Southern Spain. ;D
The Indo-European Conquest was THOROUGH. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on May 17, 2023, 04:46:55 AM
I was reviewing some campaign notes recently, and was looking over material concerning the ubiquitous Thieves' Guild found throughout gaming and then I was thinking about expanding some material on Assassin's Brotherhoods in my campaign world. I definitely have some religions and political factions that would embrace and support such shadowy organizations!
Does your campaigns have such organizations? How do you detail them? Have they played a prominent role within an area's politics or religion?
I haven't used an Assassins Guild in my campaigns but when I do I'll model it as a medieval fantasy version of the "High Table" in the John Wick Movies.
Thieves Guilds are already loosely modeled after organized crime with most of their money coming from prostitutions, drugs, gambling, protection rackets, and stealing from warehouses owned by Fat Merchants not from picking pockets and burglary.
About 15 years ago I got really fascinated by the assassins and did as much research as I could. (I'm not an academic, just a guy with autism.) The reality is that there's very little known about them because they were so secretive. The current wikipedia page does a good job of giving a cliff notes overview of everything I was able to find.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Assassins
A few interesting side notes I discovered during my delves into the available material:
1. Assassins were considered a separate religion by many and not Islamic. It still exists today as a quasi sect of Islam called Isma'ili and has it's own Imam.
2. They weren't the only other non-primary religious or political group in the area involved with the Crusades. Various Christian sects of Eastern Orthodoxy and even pre Counsel of Nicaea Christian chruches were very active. Also, there were active sects of Zoroastrianism and animistic religions. The vast majority of faction divisions were based on both ethnic background and religion simultaneously.
3. Much of the "killers for hire" idea that was had about them was from after they were destroyed by the Mongols. A local scholar claimed that they would kill for a fixed price about 100 years after the last stronghold fell. Whether that was him making it up or if there were families of survivors making a living as hired killers is not verified by anything I've ever come across.
4. The timing of the fall of the Hasssasin lines up with the birth Iga style Shinobi in Japan. There is a thin but possible connection. (Personally, I think it more likely they were refugees from noble families in China. Much of what they did was based on interpretations of Sun Tzu's Art of War.)
Edit: Grammar
QuoteI did specify the North European Plain, where there seems to have been near-complete genetic replacement.
Also not.
Pictures presents Paleolithic European DNA and Neolithic Farmer DNa in modern Europeans. Even in places where local genocide happened - like Ireland - IE were so mixed when they got their - that modern genetics is still mixed.
(https://vividmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Western-Hunter-Gatherer.png)
(https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b78e44957f87c9e891a17d8f96fd6321)
QuoteYes, S'mon! There were some Farmer Peoples that managed to survive in Sardinia! *Laughing* As far as Southern Europe, well, the Celts, the Greeks, and the Romans are all INDO-EUROPEAN. So, while the Indo-European armies may have focused on Northern Europe, they conquered most of Southern Europe as well. The Celts were all through Gaul, Northern Iberia, Northern Italy, Illyria, Dacia, parts of Greece, and even extended into Northern Turkey--where the land of Galatia was established, namesake for the Biblical Book of Galatians, and known well into the Dark Ages even for being a uniquely Celtic people, right there in the middle of Northern Turkey! *Laughing* I would say such proves that the Indo-European Conquest was very extensive.
I do not deny IE conquest. I deny genetic replacement that happened with it.
Almost everywhere in Europe Neolithic Farmers are large chunk of population genetics.
As we know PIE were about 50% Siberian Ancestral North Eurasians - we can see that best you can get in Europe is about 25% of ANE ergo 50% of Yamnaya.
Destroying Farmers would be honestly just dumb.
QuoteWrath of God's take away about genetics studies may have some merit, but it is at best a minor element. History, Language, Religion, from all the major areas of Europe are Indo-European. That's why the only remnants of the Farmer People according to Historians, Linguists, and Archaeologists, are the Sardinians and some potential tribes in Southern Spain. ;D
If culture and religion are dominant then I have no idea why you exclude Sardinians. Sardinians speak Italic language (with some nonIE elements but guess what - all IE languages have a lot of those) and they are culturally Romance people, Catholics. If you want to find some survivors preIE then of course only ones who at least kept their homeland and language are Basks (who were originally mix of hunters with farmers). But even them are genetically mixed.