So, the most recent episode of Delicious in Dungeon got me thinking about OD&D's Underworld. Most D&D games don't really have this concept anymore and that the ruins adventurers plumb are just 'dead' places. At least originally, the Underworld was itself a malevolent entity. Doors slammed shut or opened at the worst times (hence why you needed Iron Spikes), lanterns and torches would be blown out, etc. That seems to be missing from subsequent editions and I think its kinda sad. There was a reason for things like Black Puddings, Ochre Jellies, Otyughs, Carrion-Crawlers and the like. They served as the 'clean up crew' that occasionally came around and disposed of the waste that would accumulate (all the way down to almost anything organic being fodder for them).

What if you brought back The Underworld concept, but took it a step further? When player characters toss a fireball or lightning bolts inside a confined space, things are gonna get destroyed, including the masonry. What if The Underworld repairs itself? This isn't that radical of an idea, after all. We are talking about a magical world where the evolutionary process is going to be changed anyway. Its why Drow ended up with inky black skin: a magical adaptation to their surroundings (especially in places like The Vault of Erelhei-Cinlu).

A ruined temple (for example), after so long, merges with The Underworld to become part of it and The Underworld always retains its form. So once you go in and start wrecking the place, eventually it will return to its 'pristine' condition. Dust will resettle, walls/stonework will 'heal' and return to their natural forms, etc. Of course, not every dungeon crawling location would be like this, as some are still actively inhabited (The Moathouse, The Caves of Chaos, etc). Others might become part of The Underworld because of how they're used (The Chapel of Evil Chaos, The Temple of Elemental Evil, etc) so that they meet all the criterion to 'merge'.

This makes them 'living' locations in another sense. They naturally become a beacon/welcoming to monsters and humanoids like Orks, Goblins, Gnolls, etc. And its because of this that the 'unreality' of groups of monsters cohabitating can exist. Yes, they will murder each other when they can, but for the most part, the smarter ones avoid areas where they can be the local Owlbear's lunch and the 'clean up crew' can go about their time steadily making sure the dungeon is just right. 

Love OD&D's Underworld. The idea of a mystical hellspawn of sorts luring players into its depths with potential fortune is appealing.

So much you can do with a physical location trying to confuse, torment, and ultimately kill you.

The house eventually wins.

You could even take it a step further and say the underworld is constantly growing too. New hallways open up, leading to more and more sublevels, parallel levels, and endless adventure. It grows as it "gains experience".

It's a neat idea though. Ever since I heard of the idea, I always thought it was neat that the dungeon itself was a malevolent entity. It can't outright snuff out the players, so it needs monsters and traps to do it.

Sounds like OD&D's Underworld is what I thought Shadowdark was going to be, and then got disappointed when it wasn't.

Dungeons cleaning themselves up after the players leave doesn't matter much to me, but I do love the whole "malignant entity which presides over the setting is out to get you trope", something like Silent Hill or the Hunter's Nightmare in Bloodborne.

DMs I've played with in the past tend to get tied up too closely on the Silent Hill influence and try to do the thing where the setting makes your own personal hell to punish you for your sins. That never works in tabletop PCs because you have to railroad them into having sins to punish, which in turn prevents them from feeling any guilt.

Dropping the personal angle and blowing the malevolent entity up to full setting scale would work better for the tabletop. It'd pair well with something like Against the Darkmaster or Shadow of the Demon Lord, which already presume an overarching big bad in their rules. And like you say, it goes a long way to make sense of certain elements of the traditional fantasy dungeon which otherwise stretch credibility (such as how there's always a steady supply of stocked dungeons, even after decades of adventurers clearing them out).

I think there's a risk of dungeons feeling like 'instances' in MMORPGs?

I like for there to be at least some change, like the corpses of previous adventurers.

Quote from: DonJonKeeper on April 21, 2024, 03:37:07 PMI think there's a risk of dungeons feeling like 'instances' in MMORPGs?

I like for there to be at least some change, like the corpses of previous adventurers.

That's still a possibility. Not every ruin is going to be part of The Underworld, after all. A great example is the corpses of the dead adventurers found in B1: In Search of the Unknown, and the hacked up 'corpse-sicles' in G2: Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl.

Besides, its gonna take the 'clean up crew' a while to get around to 'cleaning up' the mess. Of course, if the site is part of The Underworld, the 'clean up crew' may just eat the 'juicy' bits of dead adventurers and leave their skeletons and gear alone. That works especially if The Underworld is itself an antagonist of sorts.

This is basically what the author of Operation Unfathomable does.  It was expanded and converted to DCC a couple years ago, but the original was for Swords & Wizardry and you can still get it: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/413228/Completely-Unfathomable-DCC

Something to consider for higher level parties is that there are some locations so cursed that even The Underworld avoids absorbing them.....

Hmm, this could work as The Underworld is a demigod or other divine being....

Great post. It got me thinking that Zuggtmoy from the Temple Of Elemental Evil, who is often seen as a bit of joke by the YouTube commentariat, is an almost perfect Underworld deity - like a Demeter or Ceres in the world above ground, she is is the patron deity of fungus, a main source of food in the Underworld, and also the source of light (see e.g. Gygax's D1 and D3 modules). She also controls the clean-up crew (molds, slimes, etc). You could see her Underworld cult as a kind of Barley King (or Mushroom King) cult - with sacrifices of the weak to the clean-up crew as part of the celebration for a good mushroom crop. Maybe, like fungus, the Underworld is rhizomatic in nature - formed by the Underworld chaotically sending out new underground structures and pathways in multiple directions and spreading and self-replicating where evil is strongest - hence the association in Gygax's modules with the scattered lost shards of the Elder Elemental God.