Slight riff from the Samurai thread... but it got me thinking. It's something I've noticed, especially on this forum, but others as well.

Why is it, when talking about Asian RPG's there seems to be this almost immediate descent into "realism" or very narrow "wants" in their Asian-flavored gaming that "seems" to be less stressed than European fare?

We all know D&D is basically Euro-flavored Renfaire Fantasy elevated with whatever authenticity to period(s) that float your boat. Even D&D isn't that specific, mixing and matching Bronze and Iron Age conceits fairly freely. And cultural analogs often mix different periods within the same culture.

Why do people get anal about it with Asian cultures? I'm Asian and even I notice it. You have those that dislike Japanese-fare, and prefer Chinese "fantasy", or they get into Jungle-Asian cultural stuff (which is cool), but it *seems* inevitably that discussions lean towards trying to get as authentic as possible over what might otherwise simply be "fun"? I think there is a middle-ground.

My players are terrified of when I'd GM Kara-Tur as Americans that generally know nothing about Asian, much less feudal Asian societies. I think leaning into heavy authenticity scares the noobs. Thoughts?

The first thought that leaps into my head is to lead with an Enter-The-Dragon-style session zero -- Kung-Fu vs Samurai vs Ninja vs Stick-Fighting vs etc. Get the whole Asian culture soup established right off the bat and calm those nervous players with a touch of gonzo.

I'd guess it's that if you want an Asian setting it's because you have some knowledge of such things and are looking for something specific.  Pseudo-European medieval is the default for most games, so the folks that just want to get to the fight, which is a lot of them, just go there.

I prefer my ninjas to be able to phase through walls and the Shaolin monks throwing fireballs. I used to watch Kung Fu Theatre on Saturday afternoons when I was a kid, so my idea of an "Asian-flavored" game involves MAC-10 wielding Hong Kong gangsters shooting up sushi shops while Jackie Chan jumps through a window. I figure katanas can cut through anything like it was Swiss cheese and random street urchins can morph into dragons.

But that's just me.

Quote from: tenbones on October 22, 2024, 03:27:10 PMSlight riff from the Samurai thread... but it got me thinking. It's something I've noticed, especially on this forum, but others as well.

Why is it, when talking about Asian RPG's there seems to be this almost immediate descent into "realism" or very narrow "wants" in their Asian-flavored gaming that "seems" to be less stressed than European fare?

We all know D&D is basically Euro-flavored Renfaire Fantasy elevated with whatever authenticity to period(s) that float your boat. Even D&D isn't that specific, mixing and matching Bronze and Iron Age conceits fairly freely. And cultural analogs often mix different periods within the same culture.

Why do people get anal about it with Asian cultures? I'm Asian and even I notice it. You have those that dislike Japanese-fare, and prefer Chinese "fantasy", or they get into Jungle-Asian cultural stuff (which is cool), but it *seems* inevitably that discussions lean towards trying to get as authentic as possible over what might otherwise simply be "fun"? I think there is a middle-ground.

My players are terrified of when I'd GM Kara-Tur as Americans that generally know nothing about Asian, much less feudal Asian societies. I think leaning into heavy authenticity scares the noobs. Thoughts?

Gaming nerds get anal about details. There's the whole infamous section in AD&D about all the freakin' types of polearms. Like anyone outside of historical sticklers gave a crap.

But also I think there's a desire to make the campaign different from the standard psuedo medieval
D&D setting. Gamers get off in the weeds over authenticity to make the campaign distinct.

I pretty much agree. A level of authenticity can add to the game, but we're here to have fun adventures and bonk monsters, not argue over the petty details of cultures and their mythologies. (Unless one is a wokester who want to bitch about "cultural appropriation" )

The pole arm thing in AD&D was basically a Dragon article re-printed in UA (like most of UA) because they had money problems and needed to sell a hardback book with minimal development costs (and production costs, which is why pretty much all copies of UA have fallen apart)

But I think there are plenty of realistic pseudo-Western European games, Chivalry & Sorcery, Harn, maybe Pendragon and plenty of nonsensical Asian games.

But with that said, there does seem to be a pretty big difference in Chinese wuxia fantasy and Japanese fantasy (what with samurai and ninjas). I would compare it to being the difference between Arabian Nights style games vs Western European. They were close to each other, have a lot of common history, but have different feels

Absolutely right. I don't see this in reverse either. And frankly the weirdly distorted versions of Europe I see in Anime seem far cooler RPG playgrounds than anything realistic.

I could speculate a few reasons, but I think they all circle around the idea that people are going to be more comfortable bowdlerizing/tropifying/anachronizing either their own culture or one that they are more familiar with, than they are with a strange one.

If I run a European inspired setting, I can do so in reasonable confidence that I know when I am portraying it inaccurately, and that my players will likely know that too. If I'm running, say, medieval China, I know almost nothing about it and neither do my players, so there's a much higher risk that I will unknowingly convey inaccurate ideas about it, and my players will internalize those ideas as accurate. And let's be honest, if you screw up European history, people are less likely to get offended than if you screw up any other culture.

On top of that, I think that when Anglo-European players experience a non-European setting, they tend to desire more accuracy, because the game is a way for them to experience a culture they otherwise don't get exposed to, and they want it to be authentic.

Further, "D&D fantasy", while totally unrealistic, is a style of fantasy that is so ubiquitous that it kind of constitutes a known culture. Most players probably know it better than they do any real world history. So there's a kind of honesty to running it because no one really thinks you're running anything other than a genre trope.

Quote from: tenbones on October 22, 2024, 03:27:10 PMWhy is it, when talking about Asian RPG's there seems to be this almost immediate descent into "realism" or very narrow "wants" in their Asian-flavored gaming that "seems" to be less stressed than European fare?

I have wondered this as well. People bitch incessantly about how "inrealistic" Oriental Adventures is. But its srawn dtraight from Chinese martial arts movies and Japanese samurai and giant monster movies with some historical elements tossed in.

Quote from: tenbones on October 22, 2024, 03:27:10 PMSlight riff from the Samurai thread... but it got me thinking. It's something I've noticed, especially on this forum, but others as well.

Why is it, when talking about Asian RPG's there seems to be this almost immediate descent into "realism" or very narrow "wants" in their Asian-flavored gaming that "seems" to be less stressed than European fare?

We all know D&D is basically Euro-flavored Renfaire Fantasy elevated with whatever authenticity to period(s) that float your boat. Even D&D isn't that specific, mixing and matching Bronze and Iron Age conceits fairly freely. And cultural analogs often mix different periods within the same culture.

Why do people get anal about it with Asian cultures? I'm Asian and even I notice it. You have those that dislike Japanese-fare, and prefer Chinese "fantasy", or they get into Jungle-Asian cultural stuff (which is cool), but it *seems* inevitably that discussions lean towards trying to get as authentic as possible over what might otherwise simply be "fun"? I think there is a middle-ground.

My players are terrified of when I'd GM Kara-Tur as Americans that generally know nothing about Asian, much less feudal Asian societies. I think leaning into heavy authenticity scares the noobs. Thoughts?

To your final point, I run a lot of wuxia and I do find this mentality is one of the things that seems to intimidate a lot of players and potential GMs. I think maybe part of it is these are genres that are rooted in real historical settings (whereas something like Lord of the Rings is vaguely reminiscent of the real world, but is part of a long tradition of fantasy in fabricated settings). For example, most wuxia movies and books, even if they aren't historically realistic ones, are still set in real China, so people expect that or something close to it when you are running a campaign (same thing with Samurai). But they are also genres that bend reality, so I think it gets complicated. I have also noticed, with wuxia in particular, a tendency to distill the genre into something that it isn't necessarily. That is why I go on a lot about wuxia dungeons (dungeons and inns are both more prevalent in wuxia source material in my opinion than in traditional fantasy, but dungeons are often considered antithetical to a wuxia campaign).

I do think it is good to lean the history and to incorporate it. But I also think there is no reason to be uptight about and to not let GMs be creative and fashion Asian settings in their own way

Asia has a dense history, cultures and religions. Western folks are typically completely ignorant of it. There's a negative history of colonialism. Blah blah.

For me, I don't mind pulling elements from Asian history and folklore to add to my game (I do it all the time IRL) in an over the top fantasy game.  By in large, I find that my players don't seem to notice it at all unless I make it explicit.

However, I feel that finding ways to ground the setting gives a much better game play experience.  Ancient Asian cultures are already exotic enough that grounding them a bit with real history and situations helps both me as the GM and my players connect with the world.

My current game project is a game where all the players are some flavor of ninja.  While the idea of stealth warriors is always cool, I think they are even cooler in context to their place and time.  The setting as a whole is medieval Japan but with the folklore and supernatural beliefs dial up to 11.  One session could be stealing a Diamyo's favorite sword to publicly shame him while another could be hunting yokai.  (Hopefully I will have play test materials ready for daylight next summer.  I got RL issues to address too.)

Quote from: Brad on October 22, 2024, 05:18:03 PMI prefer my ninjas to be able to phase through walls and the Shaolin monks throwing fireballs. I used to watch Kung Fu Theatre on Saturday afternoons when I was a kid, so my idea of an "Asian-flavored" game involves MAC-10 wielding Hong Kong gangsters shooting up sushi shops while Jackie Chan jumps through a window. I figure katanas can cut through anything like it was Swiss cheese and random street urchins can morph into dragons.

But that's just me.

Yeah me too. But I find it odd how hard people go on forums trying to get super-detailed in their Sengoku vs. Heian or Japanese vs. Chinese in their fantasy games.

At least as discussed in terms of RPG's that are out there. Where is the gonzo Asian stuff?

Quote from: tenbones on October 22, 2024, 09:57:03 PMWhere is the gonzo Asian stuff?

Waiting for you to write it?  Let us know when you're ready for play testers.

The game D&D is its own mishmash, like medieval interpreted by Stargate.

But a lot of players are looking for a specific vibe.

Chambara isn't the same sort of over the top vibe you get from "Journey to the West."