TheRPGSite

Slight riff from the Samurai thread... but it got me thinking. It's something I've noticed, especially on this forum, but others as well.

Why is it, when talking about Asian RPG's there seems to be this almost immediate descent into "realism" or very narrow "wants" in their Asian-flavored gaming that "seems" to be less stressed than European fare?

We all know D&D is basically Euro-flavored Renfaire Fantasy elevated with whatever authenticity to period(s) that float your boat. Even D&D isn't that specific, mixing and matching Bronze and Iron Age conceits fairly freely. And cultural analogs often mix different periods within the same culture.

Why do people get anal about it with Asian cultures? I'm Asian and even I notice it. You have those that dislike Japanese-fare, and prefer Chinese "fantasy", or they get into Jungle-Asian cultural stuff (which is cool), but it *seems* inevitably that discussions lean towards trying to get as authentic as possible over what might otherwise simply be "fun"? I think there is a middle-ground.

My players are terrified of when I'd GM Kara-Tur as Americans that generally know nothing about Asian, much less feudal Asian societies. I think leaning into heavy authenticity scares the noobs. Thoughts?

The first thought that leaps into my head is to lead with an Enter-The-Dragon-style session zero -- Kung-Fu vs Samurai vs Ninja vs Stick-Fighting vs etc. Get the whole Asian culture soup established right off the bat and calm those nervous players with a touch of gonzo.

I'd guess it's that if you want an Asian setting it's because you have some knowledge of such things and are looking for something specific.  Pseudo-European medieval is the default for most games, so the folks that just want to get to the fight, which is a lot of them, just go there.

I prefer my ninjas to be able to phase through walls and the Shaolin monks throwing fireballs. I used to watch Kung Fu Theatre on Saturday afternoons when I was a kid, so my idea of an "Asian-flavored" game involves MAC-10 wielding Hong Kong gangsters shooting up sushi shops while Jackie Chan jumps through a window. I figure katanas can cut through anything like it was Swiss cheese and random street urchins can morph into dragons.

But that's just me.

Quote from: tenbones on October 22, 2024, 03:27:10 PMSlight riff from the Samurai thread... but it got me thinking. It's something I've noticed, especially on this forum, but others as well.

Why is it, when talking about Asian RPG's there seems to be this almost immediate descent into "realism" or very narrow "wants" in their Asian-flavored gaming that "seems" to be less stressed than European fare?

We all know D&D is basically Euro-flavored Renfaire Fantasy elevated with whatever authenticity to period(s) that float your boat. Even D&D isn't that specific, mixing and matching Bronze and Iron Age conceits fairly freely. And cultural analogs often mix different periods within the same culture.

Why do people get anal about it with Asian cultures? I'm Asian and even I notice it. You have those that dislike Japanese-fare, and prefer Chinese "fantasy", or they get into Jungle-Asian cultural stuff (which is cool), but it *seems* inevitably that discussions lean towards trying to get as authentic as possible over what might otherwise simply be "fun"? I think there is a middle-ground.

My players are terrified of when I'd GM Kara-Tur as Americans that generally know nothing about Asian, much less feudal Asian societies. I think leaning into heavy authenticity scares the noobs. Thoughts?

Gaming nerds get anal about details. There's the whole infamous section in AD&D about all the freakin' types of polearms. Like anyone outside of historical sticklers gave a crap.

But also I think there's a desire to make the campaign different from the standard psuedo medieval
D&D setting. Gamers get off in the weeds over authenticity to make the campaign distinct.

I pretty much agree. A level of authenticity can add to the game, but we're here to have fun adventures and bonk monsters, not argue over the petty details of cultures and their mythologies. (Unless one is a wokester who want to bitch about "cultural appropriation" :P )

The pole arm thing in AD&D was basically a Dragon article re-printed in UA (like most of UA) because they had money problems and needed to sell a hardback book with minimal development costs (and production costs, which is why pretty much all copies of UA have fallen apart)

But I think there are plenty of realistic pseudo-Western European games, Chivalry & Sorcery, Harn, maybe Pendragon and plenty of nonsensical Asian games.

But with that said, there does seem to be a pretty big difference in Chinese wuxia fantasy and Japanese fantasy (what with samurai and ninjas). I would compare it to being the difference between Arabian Nights style games vs Western European. They were close to each other, have a lot of common history, but have different feels

Absolutely right. I don't see this in reverse either. And frankly the weirdly distorted versions of Europe I see in Anime seem far cooler RPG playgrounds than anything realistic.

I could speculate a few reasons, but I think they all circle around the idea that people are going to be more comfortable bowdlerizing/tropifying/anachronizing either their own culture or one that they are more familiar with, than they are with a strange one.

If I run a European inspired setting, I can do so in reasonable confidence that I know when I am portraying it inaccurately, and that my players will likely know that too. If I'm running, say, medieval China, I know almost nothing about it and neither do my players, so there's a much higher risk that I will unknowingly convey inaccurate ideas about it, and my players will internalize those ideas as accurate. And let's be honest, if you screw up European history, people are less likely to get offended than if you screw up any other culture.

On top of that, I think that when Anglo-European players experience a non-European setting, they tend to desire more accuracy, because the game is a way for them to experience a culture they otherwise don't get exposed to, and they want it to be authentic.

Further, "D&D fantasy", while totally unrealistic, is a style of fantasy that is so ubiquitous that it kind of constitutes a known culture. Most players probably know it better than they do any real world history. So there's a kind of honesty to running it because no one really thinks you're running anything other than a genre trope.

Quote from: tenbones on October 22, 2024, 03:27:10 PMWhy is it, when talking about Asian RPG's there seems to be this almost immediate descent into "realism" or very narrow "wants" in their Asian-flavored gaming that "seems" to be less stressed than European fare?

I have wondered this as well. People bitch incessantly about how "inrealistic" Oriental Adventures is. But its srawn dtraight from Chinese martial arts movies and Japanese samurai and giant monster movies with some historical elements tossed in.

Quote from: tenbones on October 22, 2024, 03:27:10 PMSlight riff from the Samurai thread... but it got me thinking. It's something I've noticed, especially on this forum, but others as well.

Why is it, when talking about Asian RPG's there seems to be this almost immediate descent into "realism" or very narrow "wants" in their Asian-flavored gaming that "seems" to be less stressed than European fare?

We all know D&D is basically Euro-flavored Renfaire Fantasy elevated with whatever authenticity to period(s) that float your boat. Even D&D isn't that specific, mixing and matching Bronze and Iron Age conceits fairly freely. And cultural analogs often mix different periods within the same culture.

Why do people get anal about it with Asian cultures? I'm Asian and even I notice it. You have those that dislike Japanese-fare, and prefer Chinese "fantasy", or they get into Jungle-Asian cultural stuff (which is cool), but it *seems* inevitably that discussions lean towards trying to get as authentic as possible over what might otherwise simply be "fun"? I think there is a middle-ground.

My players are terrified of when I'd GM Kara-Tur as Americans that generally know nothing about Asian, much less feudal Asian societies. I think leaning into heavy authenticity scares the noobs. Thoughts?

To your final point, I run a lot of wuxia and I do find this mentality is one of the things that seems to intimidate a lot of players and potential GMs. I think maybe part of it is these are genres that are rooted in real historical settings (whereas something like Lord of the Rings is vaguely reminiscent of the real world, but is part of a long tradition of fantasy in fabricated settings). For example, most wuxia movies and books, even if they aren't historically realistic ones, are still set in real China, so people expect that or something close to it when you are running a campaign (same thing with Samurai). But they are also genres that bend reality, so I think it gets complicated. I have also noticed, with wuxia in particular, a tendency to distill the genre into something that it isn't necessarily. That is why I go on a lot about wuxia dungeons (dungeons and inns are both more prevalent in wuxia source material in my opinion than in traditional fantasy, but dungeons are often considered antithetical to a wuxia campaign).

I do think it is good to lean the history and to incorporate it. But I also think there is no reason to be uptight about and to not let GMs be creative and fashion Asian settings in their own way

Asia has a dense history, cultures and religions. Western folks are typically completely ignorant of it. There's a negative history of colonialism. Blah blah.

For me, I don't mind pulling elements from Asian history and folklore to add to my game (I do it all the time IRL) in an over the top fantasy game.  By in large, I find that my players don't seem to notice it at all unless I make it explicit.

However, I feel that finding ways to ground the setting gives a much better game play experience.  Ancient Asian cultures are already exotic enough that grounding them a bit with real history and situations helps both me as the GM and my players connect with the world.

My current game project is a game where all the players are some flavor of ninja.  While the idea of stealth warriors is always cool, I think they are even cooler in context to their place and time.  The setting as a whole is medieval Japan but with the folklore and supernatural beliefs dial up to 11.  One session could be stealing a Diamyo's favorite sword to publicly shame him while another could be hunting yokai.  (Hopefully I will have play test materials ready for daylight next summer.  I got RL issues to address too.)

Quote from: Brad on October 22, 2024, 05:18:03 PMI prefer my ninjas to be able to phase through walls and the Shaolin monks throwing fireballs. I used to watch Kung Fu Theatre on Saturday afternoons when I was a kid, so my idea of an "Asian-flavored" game involves MAC-10 wielding Hong Kong gangsters shooting up sushi shops while Jackie Chan jumps through a window. I figure katanas can cut through anything like it was Swiss cheese and random street urchins can morph into dragons.

But that's just me.

Yeah me too. But I find it odd how hard people go on forums trying to get super-detailed in their Sengoku vs. Heian or Japanese vs. Chinese in their fantasy games.

At least as discussed in terms of RPG's that are out there. Where is the gonzo Asian stuff?

Quote from: tenbones on October 22, 2024, 09:57:03 PMWhere is the gonzo Asian stuff?

Waiting for you to write it?  Let us know when you're ready for play testers. ;)

The game D&D is its own mishmash, like medieval interpreted by Stargate.

But a lot of players are looking for a specific vibe.

Chambara isn't the same sort of over the top vibe you get from "Journey to the West."

You could do a game that is a cool fusion of Asian elements the way standard D&D is for the Medieval & Ancient West. It is just that that knowledge isn't as ingrained in the average Westerner to pull it off. The synthesis of East Asia's history, it's classic cinema, old literature like Journey to the West, classic wuxia lit, classic xianxia lit, Japanese classical/Medieval lit and some of the better old light novels, orientalist pulp, and it's mythology in order to make something parallel in it's influences and vibe would be tons of effort.

As a side thought, there's been a bit of a boom in Asian fantasy videogames in recent years (most recently with Black Myth: Wukong being a huge success), along with a general increase in Asian (particularly Chinese and Korean) cultural influence in the west, so that might translate into an uptick in Asian fantasy RPGs at some point down the road.

Quote from: tenbones on October 22, 2024, 09:57:03 PMBut I find it odd how hard people go on forums trying to get super-detailed in their Sengoku vs. Heian or Japanese vs. Chinese in their fantasy games.

At least as discussed in terms of RPG's that are out there. Where is the gonzo Asian stuff?

_Legend of the Five Rings_ is probably the most popular Asian-themed RPG setting, and it's not at all historical. It is Japanese flavored, but there's no history or realism to it.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/legend-of-the-five-rings-roleplaying-game/

There's also the _Feng Shui_ RPG by Robin Laws, which is very gonzo Hong-Kong-action-movie inspired.

https://www.atlas-games.com/fengshui/

LoFR is a great example of what I'd like to see more of. It seemed to really catch people's attention with a large boost from its start as a card game.

It is obviously Japanese, but there is not reason it couldn't be expanded.

Frankly, I wonder if Asian-themed RPG's without the strict adherence to "analog" historical reality would work without European elements (i.e. cultures) tossed in for points of entry for those less inclined due to Asian themed stuff being a little different.

I've had my players say the main issues are the lack of understanding of the cultures, I'm always trying to ease them in through the other said ala "Shogun" where they're westerners sent to the Asian cultures for adventure reasons. That seems to work much better than tossing them in straight away.

What are the experiences of the rest of you when trying to introduce Asian themed stuff to your groups?

The main reason is to just have something, anything, be different than just strong Fighters, Wizards in robes, halfling thieves, elf rangers, castles, and another underground maze that is inexplicably filled with traps and deaf monsters that can't hear a battle going on literally in the next room. 

So, it's not that Japan or China is better or worse, but we sweat the details because the exotic world is why we are here.  We want to see and do things differently this time to keep it fresh.  That's why getting the cultural experience right is important.  Or rather, the cultural differences. 

It's sort of why people travel.  To see new things. Emphasis on the new. 

I'll write that again.  Emphasis on the new. 

Quote from: tenbones on October 23, 2024, 10:30:41 AMWhat are the experiences of the rest of you when trying to introduce Asian themed stuff to your groups?

Players just see it as Western fantasy stuff unless I make is explicitly clear it's Asian.  I would say a solid one half of the adventure setups in my campaigns have been directly ripped from Wuxia and Clashing Swords movies and no one has ever made the connection.  I love using the Chinese Confucius bureaucracy structure to to pattern in game fae governments to contrast them from human governments.

OTOH, I think you could straight up take D&D 2e with no editing, change the art to Asian art, rename the classes and a few other things, and you have a gonzo Asian fantasy game.  It's obvious to me that there's already a lot of things borrowed from Eastern cultures already.  Metallic dragons are clearly Loongs/Ryu(chineese dragons).

Look at film.  How many Westerns have been made into Clashing Swords or Wuxia movies and vice versa?  How many of these are you familiar with?
The Seven Samurai/The Magnificent Seven
A Fist Full of Dollars/Yojimbo
Unforgiven/Unforgiven
Infernal Affairs/The Departed
Hidden Fortress/Star Wars

I went to the movies with my wife opening weekend for The Departed and 20 minutes in she goes "I've already seen this movie."  She'd seen Infernal Affairs and recognized it right away.

Quote from: tenbones on October 23, 2024, 10:30:41 AMWhat are the experiences of the rest of you when trying to introduce Asian themed stuff to your groups?

I think it just takes time. Most players, if the setting interests them, start either watching or reading more relevant source material, or paying more attention to it. I've found it to be something players largely react well to.

I think a lot of folks have already made valid points concerning most of the major issues or perceptions so I'll not rehash them here.  As someone who does have a fairly solid knowledge of Asian history and culture, particularly East Asia, I have no problem mashing up Asian-inspired fantasy just like "regular" D&D.  It was Kung Fu Theater and James Clavell novels that largely sparked my interests in Asia in the first place.  So in my campaign world, there are Asian-inspired realms (located west of the European ones) that are derived from real world examples, but mashed up.  So there's a Japan analogue, but without an emperor; they just have a shogun.  The Korean analogue has a king but it subordinate to the China/Tibet mashup [Celestial Empire of Leng].  And the place modeled on India is in total disarray as it was destroyed by yuan ti centuries ago.  Players don't seem to care, so long as they can play a samurai or whatever.  Actually one of my all-time favorite PCs is a Half-elf samurai whose father was from Mimana ([pseudo-Japan) and whose mother was an elven ranger.  I also have a monk based on the monk-soldiers who fought the Japanese during the Hideyoshi invasions of the 1590s.  So I say, mash that shit up.

Someone should make a game where characters are Portuguese in Macao or Nagasaki.

Quote from: Ruprecht on October 23, 2024, 05:51:50 PMSomeone should make a game where characters are Portuguese in Macao or Nagasaki.

Literally a thing in my the game I'm doing.  You can in fact be a Iga shinobi who is of Portuguese origin.  It'll be a rare result from a multi tier random table rolled on during PC creation.

I don't have a real historical example of this happening but I do have some basis for why and how it might have happened.  The clans in Iga accepted outsiders and integrated them on more than one occasion as well as formed long term close and trusting relationships with those from outside their province.  It's believed that remnants of the Taira were accepted as they fled from the Minamoto at the end of the Gempei war.

When the Song Dynasty collapsed due to the the pressure of the Mongols, several nobles fled to Japan.  They were absorbed into the local population in Iga.  I believe that this explains many things, among them a high degree of literacy for a remote mountain population, a very refined manual of arms for a form of warfare almost completely alien to the war clans of Japan, and several advanced tools and weapons that are clearly of Song origin and not in use by others.     

Tokugawa and his retinue formed a friendship with some of the shinobi clans while fleeing for their lives right after the Hono-Ji incident.  (I cannot overstate how incredible this is.  Tokugawa was a close ally of Oda who was responsible for killing many Iga residents just a year earlier.)  Hattori Hanzo, a samurai retainer of Tokugawa, used his connection with the Iga shinobi to form a special operations unit.  There are several stories of Hattori Hanzo and his Shadow Riders that are some of my favorite military operations stories.

I don't think it would be a stretch for a shinobi team to see the value in a skilled Portuguese naval sailor or soldier and adopt him into the family.  I believe it would have been more an issue geographic opportunity and language barrier than any other consideration as to why it may not have happened.   

Quote from: tenbones on October 22, 2024, 03:27:10 PMSlight riff from the Samurai thread... but it got me thinking. It's something I've noticed, especially on this forum, but others as well.

Why is it, when talking about Asian RPG's there seems to be this almost immediate descent into "realism" or very narrow "wants" in their Asian-flavored gaming that "seems" to be less stressed than European fare?

We all know D&D is basically Euro-flavored Renfaire Fantasy elevated with whatever authenticity to period(s) that float your boat. Even D&D isn't that specific, mixing and matching Bronze and Iron Age conceits fairly freely. And cultural analogs often mix different periods within the same culture.

Why do people get anal about it with Asian cultures? I'm Asian and even I notice it. You have those that dislike Japanese-fare, and prefer Chinese "fantasy", or they get into Jungle-Asian cultural stuff (which is cool), but it *seems* inevitably that discussions lean towards trying to get as authentic as possible over what might otherwise simply be "fun"? I think there is a middle-ground.

My players are terrified of when I'd GM Kara-Tur as Americans that generally know nothing about Asian, much less feudal Asian societies. I think leaning into heavy authenticity scares the noobs. Thoughts?

I think there' a two-part answer here.  The first is social, the second is mental.  First, there has been such an outcry by Fasians (the fake-Asians... who have an Asian heritage, but are fully Westernized... have fetishized their heritage to the point where it has become a religion for them) about cultural appropriation and such a outgrowth of cultural sensitivity reader grifting that most major publishers would have to have a death-wish to approach the topic.  And a small designer or publisher would be digging their own grave without paying the sensitivity-reader Danegeld that they probably can't afford.  So anything that is done will have to be done by fans (who may or may not prove to be immune to the pressure).

Second, I think most Western gamers have been browbeaten to the point where they are afraid to "offend" by treating that material in as hyperbolic a matter as they would their "own" culture.  The same person who wouldn't think twice about turning the Spanish Inquisition into a cybernetically enhanced super-soldier program with subdermal weaponry will look both ways before suggesting Shaolin Monks with samurai swords and machine guns.  In a home group (where everyone is friends)?  Sure!  But posting that to the Internet, where someone may call your day job and ask your boss if he knew you were an anti-Asian racist?  Nope.

And thus, much that could have been won't be, because people censor themselves in the prevailing cultural zeitgeist...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 23, 2024, 08:20:28 PMThe first is social, the second is mental.  First, there has been such an outcry by Fasians (the fake-Asians... who have an Asian heritage, but are fully Westernized... have fetishized their heritage to the point where it has become a religion for them) about cultural appropriation and such a outgrowth of cultural sensitivity reader grifting that most major publishers would have to have a death-wish to approach the topic.  And a small designer or publisher would be digging their own grave without paying the sensitivity-reader Danegeld that they probably can't afford.  So anything that is done will have to be done by fans (who may or may not prove to be immune to the pressure).

While I agree that a lot of the outrage comes from Americans who happen to be of Asian extraction, what you'd probably consider to be legit Asians can also be surprisingly sensitive about how their cultures get represented by the filthy round-eyes. I was pretty surprised at the level of outrage that poured out from East Asia in regard to the last Mulan movie and the upcoming Assassin's Creed Shadows.

A Couple of examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ5_gjUWfTE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaggj0S49ws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3QKq24e0HM

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 23, 2024, 09:08:46 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 23, 2024, 08:20:28 PMThe first is social, the second is mental.  First, there has been such an outcry by Fasians (the fake-Asians... who have an Asian heritage, but are fully Westernized... have fetishized their heritage to the point where it has become a religion for them) about cultural appropriation and such a outgrowth of cultural sensitivity reader grifting that most major publishers would have to have a death-wish to approach the topic.  And a small designer or publisher would be digging their own grave without paying the sensitivity-reader Danegeld that they probably can't afford.  So anything that is done will have to be done by fans (who may or may not prove to be immune to the pressure).

While I agree that a lot of the outrage comes from Americans who happen to be of Asian extraction, what you'd probably consider to be legit Asians can also be surprisingly sensitive about how their cultures get represented by the filthy round-eyes. I was pretty surprised at the level of outrage that poured out from East Asia in regard to the last Mulan movie and the upcoming Assassin's Creed Shadows.

A Couple of examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ5_gjUWfTE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaggj0S49ws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3QKq24e0HM

I don't think the "black samurai" controversy in Assassin's Creed really supports your argument.  There's at least as many Westerners who are just as mad.  It's not about representation, and all about stupid choices...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 23, 2024, 09:58:44 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 23, 2024, 09:08:46 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 23, 2024, 08:20:28 PMThe first is social, the second is mental.  First, there has been such an outcry by Fasians (the fake-Asians... who have an Asian heritage, but are fully Westernized... have fetishized their heritage to the point where it has become a religion for them) about cultural appropriation and such a outgrowth of cultural sensitivity reader grifting that most major publishers would have to have a death-wish to approach the topic.  And a small designer or publisher would be digging their own grave without paying the sensitivity-reader Danegeld that they probably can't afford.  So anything that is done will have to be done by fans (who may or may not prove to be immune to the pressure).

While I agree that a lot of the outrage comes from Americans who happen to be of Asian extraction, what you'd probably consider to be legit Asians can also be surprisingly sensitive about how their cultures get represented by the filthy round-eyes. I was pretty surprised at the level of outrage that poured out from East Asia in regard to the last Mulan movie and the upcoming Assassin's Creed Shadows.

A Couple of examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ5_gjUWfTE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaggj0S49ws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3QKq24e0HM

I don't think the "black samurai" controversy in Assassin's Creed really supports your argument.  There's at least as many Westerners who are just as mad.  It's not about representation, and all about stupid choices...

I suppose it depends on who you ask. I was following the controversy for a while and there were certainly a lot of complaints being raised that weren't referencing the Yasuke character, and instead had to do with other misrepresentations of the historical setting, particularly getting architecture and other material culture wrong. Everything from the fact that Ubisoft released a collectible figurine of the characters sitting on a broken Torii gate (which apparently is a symbol associated with the Nagasaki bomb site) to them mixing up which plants are in bloom in certain seasons. Usually the phrase used is that Ubisoft is not "respecting" Japanese culture.

Of course some have suggested that all of that is smokescreen and these complaints wouldn't have been made if it wasn't for the Afro-Samurai thing. In fairness, I'm sure you could point to plenty of examples of equally inaccurate media that didn't receive anything like the same backlash. If nothing else, it's probably fair to say that the Yasuke situation got the eyes on it and then people started looking for other problems.

There are two chief complaints from Japan over Assassins Creed.

1.  The whole bastardization of history and claiming their changes is the real history.  Ubisoft went so far as to hire a "historian" to push a false interpretation of history as fact.  The individual complaints about things like architecture are extensions of this core complaint.  Had Ubisoft simply said that they took inspiration from things they discovered in Japanese history and went with their imaginations rather than literally trying to rewrite their history to fit a narrative there wouldn't have been anything like the backlash they got. 

2.  The statuette with the broken Torii gate was a straight up cultural insult.
Qlectors.png
The one legged Torii gate of Nagasaki is a remnant of the atomic bomb damage to the city.  It has a strong cultural resonance with the Japanese historically and spiritually.  In the mix with everything else, this came across as really callous and disrespectful.
translation-one-legged-torii-gate-shinto-that-still-stands-taken-in-august-2019-2CYAHC1.jpg

In my experience, Koreans, Japanese, Taiwanese, and Filipinos don't really mind Westerners borrowing cultural elements in fictional and fantastical ways and often find it flattering.  A group of Japanese gamers even brought out a copy of Oriental Adventures for me to run for them.  In short, be honest and don't belittle or ridicule and you can have a lot of fun with Asian inspiration with their blessings and maybe even encouragement.

And then there is this. An outlier maybe but still. "Why a Quintessentially Chinese Movie Was Made in Hollywood"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/11/AR2008071103281_pf.html

ON the mashup angle, I don't see any particular issue with it. There isn't anything wrong with blending cultures in a setting IMO. Pastiches are pretty standard for fantasy. And then there are campaigns that maybe vaguely pull on some of these elements but are even more broadly blended with European stuff. I've run all types of campaigns: mash-ups and more focused on a particular genre or region; I've also run tons of both the 1E and 3E oriental adventures, and I ran a d20 wuxia campaign that stripped out parts from tons of d20 supplements and non-D&D systems like Feng Shui; and I ran one that was a pretty standard western fantasy with dragons but the kobolds all had asian martial arts oriented cultures---and most of the PCs in that campaign were kobolds). Getting creative with tropes and history is one of the reasons I like GMing. It doesn't make sense to me that a world mashing up those elements would be considered wrong for some reason. I think these things tend to be a bit cyclical though, and what is out there tends to reflect what genres have strong presence in the culture (i.e. if tons of games are leaning into Japan or samurai movies, people who want something leaning more into China or wuxia will make games that serve that need).

Real Asians seem far more pissed off at cultural Marxist distortion of their history than at traditional Laser Katana Rule-of-Cool stuff. They tend to like the latter. Just as I wasn't offended by the presentation of Britain in (eg) Hellsing. It may not be any resemblance to reality, but it looks cool. That should be enough.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 24, 2024, 12:47:22 AMparticularly getting architecture and other material culture wrong.

Considering how much effort Ubisoft claimed they put into getting those things right, the response is understandable and may not have happened otherwise. They did do a decent job with the material culture of Ptolemaic Egypt, Classical Greece and Golden Age Baghdad etc. It's about the expectations they set.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 23, 2024, 09:08:46 PMWhile I agree that a lot of the outrage comes from Americans who happen to be of Asian extraction, what you'd probably consider to be legit Asians can also be surprisingly sensitive about how their cultures get represented by the filthy round-eyes. I was pretty surprised at the level of outrage that poured out from East Asia in regard to the last Mulan movie and the upcoming Assassin's Creed Shadows.

A Couple of examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ5_gjUWfTE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaggj0S49ws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3QKq24e0HM

Coming from a Korean background, I don't mind general lack of authenticity, but I do get annoyed at some things -- particularly over Japanese tropes being presented as "generic Asian" to be found all over the mainland. This isn't a modern American or college thing - it's common in the older generation in Korea.

During the occupation (1910 to 1945), the Japanese did their best to wipe out Korean culture. My father grew up under occupation, and had to go through things like not being allowed to speak Korean in school, and being beaten if he was caught doing so. Most cultural sites like palaces were burned by the Japanese and had to be reconstructed later.

Because of this, it bugs me, say, to have samurai and ninja being presented as generically Asian.

Quote from: S'mon on October 24, 2024, 02:59:08 PMReal Asians seem far more pissed off at cultural Marxist distortion of their history than at traditional Laser Katana Rule-of-Cool stuff. They tend to like the latter. Just as I wasn't offended by the presentation of Britain in (eg) Hellsing. It may not be any resemblance to reality, but it looks cool. That should be enough.

This tends to be what I experience as well.  Hell, a lot of the guys I've spent time with enjoy the American take on their cultures.  It's wrong more than right but usually pretty flattering and always entertaining.

Quote from: tenbones on October 22, 2024, 03:27:10 PMI think leaning into heavy authenticity scares the noobs. Thoughts?

I used to run Legends of the Five Rings at Commiefornia game cons and I met 3 White males who got college degrees in various Asian history/culture studies because of Gary's Oriental Adventures and L5R. One was fluent in Japanese and got his PhD in Japanese history and archeology.

That last one was great player as he could put aside his obsession to just enjoy L5R for what it was with no concern for authenticity.

I get the authenticity issue. Nobody wants to feel dumb, especially when playing a game. Playing a faux-historical game brings the assumption that you need to know some history stuff to be able to play effectively.

And...that's true. You kinda do. Not for L5R as much, but definitely for Bushido. 

I've toyed with the idea of making a RPG called "Chow Mein Fantasy" where we gleefully play Asian inspired fantasy with zero authenticity, but that would probably get nuked off Kickstarter.

It's predominantly a fear of committing Orientalism while being completely blind to their Occidentalism. :) Simple as that. People are simple beings and mash up unfamiliar areas until someone's feelings are hurt, then they try to make an effort to not.

;) But you always got to leave a % for the "samurai sword uber alles" superfans.

The funny thing about reading this thread is that my main homebrew fantasy setting is exactly my version of what Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk is to European fantasy. I throw things together and mix things up to make a not-Asia setting that echoes the real world, but is different enough that it does not need to be "realistic".

Quote from: Hzilong on November 01, 2024, 12:21:19 AMThe funny thing about reading this thread is that my main homebrew fantasy setting is exactly my version of what Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk is to European fantasy. I throw things together and mix things up to make a not-Asia setting that echoes the real world, but is different enough that it does not need to be "realistic".

How do you present your material to your players so that you convey the Asian flavor to your players?

Quote from: BadApple on November 01, 2024, 06:55:12 AM

Quote from: Hzilong on November 01, 2024, 12:21:19 AMThe funny thing about reading this thread is that my main homebrew fantasy setting is exactly my version of what Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk is to European fantasy. I throw things together and mix things up to make a not-Asia setting that echoes the real world, but is different enough that it does not need to be "realistic".

How do you present your material to your players so that you convey the Asian flavor to your players?

A lot of it comes down to literally the language I use at the table. I speak Cantonese and am familiar enough with other East Asian languages that I can bs words that soundly vaguely correct. By simply renaming things to a vaguely Asian equivalent (knightly orders become heroic brotherhoods, frequent use of "imperial" and "emperor", etc.) I can ground the world in an Asian aesthetic from the outset. Then add in some Confucian morals, which a lot of Asia uses, and you get a pretty good working baseline for at least a veneer of asianess. Then I add in monsters ripped straight from journey to the west or Japanese myth and make allusions to historical events and stories like the poems about Fa Mulan and the Ming dynasty treasure ships. It does take a bit of effort, especially if a person is not as familiar with East Asian history and culture.

Quote from: Hzilong on November 01, 2024, 08:35:51 AM

Quote from: BadApple on November 01, 2024, 06:55:12 AM

Quote from: Hzilong on November 01, 2024, 12:21:19 AMThe funny thing about reading this thread is that my main homebrew fantasy setting is exactly my version of what Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk is to European fantasy. I throw things together and mix things up to make a not-Asia setting that echoes the real world, but is different enough that it does not need to be "realistic".

How do you present your material to your players so that you convey the Asian flavor to your players?

A lot of it comes down to literally the language I use at the table. I speak Cantonese and am familiar enough with other East Asian languages that I can bs words that soundly vaguely correct. By simply renaming things to a vaguely Asian equivalent (knightly orders become heroic brotherhoods, frequent use of "imperial" and "emperor", etc.) I can ground the world in an Asian aesthetic from the outset. Then add in some Confucian morals, which a lot of Asia uses, and you get a pretty good working baseline for at least a veneer of asianess. Then I add in monsters ripped straight from journey to the west or Japanese myth and make allusions to historical events and stories like the poems about Fa Mulan and the Ming dynasty treasure ships. It does take a bit of effort, especially if a person is not as familiar with East Asian history and culture.

That seems to line up a lot with what I said earlier:

Quote from: BadApple on October 23, 2024, 11:20:02 AMPlayers just see it as Western fantasy stuff unless I make is explicitly clear it's Asian.  I would say a solid one half of the adventure setups in my campaigns have been directly ripped from Wuxia and Clashing Swords movies and no one has ever made the connection.  I love using the Chinese Confucius bureaucracy structure to to pattern in game fae governments to contrast them from human governments.

OTOH, I think you could straight up take D&D 2e with no editing, change the art to Asian art, rename the classes and a few other things, and you have a gonzo Asian fantasy game.  It's obvious to me that there's already a lot of things borrowed from Eastern cultures already.  Metallic dragons are clearly Loongs/Ryu(chineese dragons).

Look at film.  How many Westerns have been made into Clashing Swords or Wuxia movies and vice versa?  How many of these are you familiar with?
The Seven Samurai/The Magnificent Seven
A Fist Full of Dollars/Yojimbo
Unforgiven/Unforgiven
Infernal Affairs/The Departed
Hidden Fortress/Star Wars

I went to the movies with my wife opening weekend for The Departed and 20 minutes in she goes "I've already seen this movie."  She'd seen Infernal Affairs and recognized it right away.

I think the human experience is universal enough that the differences really come down to details and focus.  Do you have any thoughts one way or another in my perspective?

Quote from: Hzilong on November 01, 2024, 12:21:19 AMThe funny thing about reading this thread is that my main homebrew fantasy setting is exactly my version of what Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk is to European fantasy. I throw things together and mix things up to make a not-Asia setting that echoes the real world, but is different enough that it does not need to be "realistic".

This is exactly how my games are.

But it's weird watching people on forums talk about "Asian-themed" games descend into really granular specifics that even most Asians don't know about their own cultural history. We need that "Asian sweet spot" which uses Asian motifs like Realms or Greyhawk does for European analogs and keep it fun. Kara-Tur and Rokugan did it well. I never understood the critcisms that it was "Too Japanese" or "Not Chinese enough", what's funny is Kara-Tur did it all - even Kozakura is split into pre-and-post Tokugawa era by having Wa as an alternative to Kozakura. But you rarely see people say that of Realms or Greyhawk. It's not "Too English or French".

More to the point - MOST historical accuracy quibbles are over time-period accuracy of *gear*.

Quote from: tenbones on November 01, 2024, 03:25:47 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on November 01, 2024, 12:21:19 AMThe funny thing about reading this thread is that my main homebrew fantasy setting is exactly my version of what Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk is to European fantasy. I throw things together and mix things up to make a not-Asia setting that echoes the real world, but is different enough that it does not need to be "realistic".

This is exactly how my games are.

But it's weird watching people on forums talk about "Asian-themed" games descend into really granular specifics that even most Asians don't know about their own cultural history. We need that "Asian sweet spot" which uses Asian motifs like Realms or Greyhawk does for European analogs and keep it fun. Kara-Tur and Rokugan did it well. I never understood the critcisms that it was "Too Japanese" or "Not Chinese enough", what's funny is Kara-Tur did it all - even Kozakura is split into pre-and-post Tokugawa era by having Wa as an alternative to Kozakura. But you rarely see people say that of Realms or Greyhawk. It's not "Too English or French".

More to the point - MOST historical accuracy quibbles are over time-period accuracy of *gear*.

The anti-anachronistic crowd baffles me the most when it comes to fantasy.  "magic is ok but have a pocket watch 3 years before they were invented is a horrible no-no."

So, yes, I agree with what you said BadApple. Players in the West tend to default to European aesthetics for their imagined realms. Using explicitly non-European imagery and themes is pretty much how I shift the tone of my games. I don't blame anyone for this. People imagine what they know.

Another funny bit of irony is that, despite how some people in old school RPG circles feel about it, the rise in the popularity of anime has made it easier to do Asian themed games. Causally mentioning how a character or place resembles something else from Demon Slayer or Inuyasha, for examples of popular anime, immediately sets the scene for even a lot of normies. I suspect it's going to get easier to run Asian themed games as Asian media keeps seeping into the West since a lot of western popular media is, frankly, not worth consuming.

Also, I do quibble with gear accuracy in my game. But it's less about anachronism and more about why are daggers so weak? In every culture that has developed advanced armor, daggers and knives have likely killed more people in close combat than swords. I usually home brew a rule or feat that gives daggers something ridiculous for armor piercing or damage when grappling. As a Three Kingdoms fan (shocking, I know. You'd never guess from my name and pfp) anachronism is absolutely rife in Chinese literature. Guan Yu's famous crescent halberd would not be invented for practically a millennium after his death.

I have game worlds that cover a whole range of human civilizations. 

Over here are the Europeans.  Over there are the Arabs (pre Muslim, with sexy harem girls who belly dance).  Over on this island are the Vikings, and this island is the Japanese. And so on.

It's then that you run into that guy who just hates it when you borrow real cultures from history.  If everything isn't 100% made up, you're doing it wrong.

And that know-it-all has never GM'ed a game.  He has never even offered to.  It's like inventing a culture is no big thing.  Why can't you do that every time?  Weird, right?

Personally, I like fantasy worlds to have recognizable cultures.  Japan in particular. 

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 23, 2024, 08:20:28 PMSecond, I think most Western gamers have been browbeaten to the point where they are afraid to "offend" by treating that material in as hyperbolic a matter as they would their "own" culture.  The same person who wouldn't think twice about turning the Spanish Inquisition into a cybernetically enhanced super-soldier program with subdermal weaponry will look both ways before suggesting Shaolin Monks with samurai swords and machine guns.  In a home group (where everyone is friends)?  Sure!  But posting that to the Internet, where someone may call your day job and ask your boss if he knew you were an anti-Asian racist?  Nope.

The one difference between Euro-based and Asian-based non-historic fantasy is how the different people view their neighbors. Despite fighting two World Wars against the Germans, nobody in England is going to be upset with medieval German stuff in their RPG.

But I worked with a guy from Beijing in the late 90s who was pissed off when playing the Legend of Five Rings card game because they mixed Chinese and Japanese historic elements together. And, from my understanding, the anti-Japanese sentiment in mainland China is even worse than it was back then.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 02, 2024, 12:57:18 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 23, 2024, 08:20:28 PMSecond, I think most Western gamers have been browbeaten to the point where they are afraid to "offend" by treating that material in as hyperbolic a matter as they would their "own" culture.  The same person who wouldn't think twice about turning the Spanish Inquisition into a cybernetically enhanced super-soldier program with subdermal weaponry will look both ways before suggesting Shaolin Monks with samurai swords and machine guns.  In a home group (where everyone is friends)?  Sure!  But posting that to the Internet, where someone may call your day job and ask your boss if he knew you were an anti-Asian racist?  Nope.

The one difference between Euro-based and Asian-based non-historic fantasy is how the different people view their neighbors. Despite fighting two World Wars against the Germans, nobody in England is going to be upset with medieval German stuff in their RPG.

But I worked with a guy from Beijing in the late 90s who was pissed off when playing the Legend of Five Rings card game because they mixed Chinese and Japanese historic elements together. And, from my understanding, the anti-Japanese sentiment in mainland China is even worse than it was back then.

I have spent some time in Korea, Taiwan, and Japan as well as having lived in the Philippines for 18 years.  There is a very strong sense of animosity and superiority between many of the Asian countries.  It's very strong between Japanese and Korean.  There's centuries of history that fosters bad blood between them.  (It would be easy to see one the good guys and other one the bad guys but I can make a good case that "everyone's the asshole here.")

Honestly, the concept of international forgiveness and cooperation is modern and western.  Remember, the French and the English had a long standing blood feud up until the late 1800s.  A fairly realistic view of any culture or nation to be hostile to it's neighbors unless there was a compelling reason to be otherwise. 

I know I'm going to ruffle some feathers here but do some actual research on this before flaming me.  Throughout the vast majority of human history, the "natural order" accepted by everyone is that the strong dominated the weak.  If two nations got into a conflict, it was a matter of when, not if, one country subsumed the other and enslaved the living remnants.  It's extremely new (about 150 years) and largely driven by American and British efforts that the idea of preserving different cultures and establishing a baseline for human rights.

Quote from: BadApple on November 02, 2024, 01:55:27 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 02, 2024, 12:57:18 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 23, 2024, 08:20:28 PMSecond, I think most Western gamers have been browbeaten to the point where they are afraid to "offend" by treating that material in as hyperbolic a matter as they would their "own" culture.  The same person who wouldn't think twice about turning the Spanish Inquisition into a cybernetically enhanced super-soldier program with subdermal weaponry will look both ways before suggesting Shaolin Monks with samurai swords and machine guns.  In a home group (where everyone is friends)?  Sure!  But posting that to the Internet, where someone may call your day job and ask your boss if he knew you were an anti-Asian racist?  Nope.

The one difference between Euro-based and Asian-based non-historic fantasy is how the different people view their neighbors. Despite fighting two World Wars against the Germans, nobody in England is going to be upset with medieval German stuff in their RPG.

But I worked with a guy from Beijing in the late 90s who was pissed off when playing the Legend of Five Rings card game because they mixed Chinese and Japanese historic elements together. And, from my understanding, the anti-Japanese sentiment in mainland China is even worse than it was back then.

I have spent some time in Korea, Taiwan, and Japan as well as having lived in the Philippines for 18 years.  There is a very strong sense of animosity and superiority between many of the Asian countries.  It's very strong between Japanese and Korean.  There's centuries of history that fosters bad blood between them.  (It would be easy to see one the good guys and other one the bad guys but I can make a good case that "everyone's the asshole here.")

Honestly, the concept of international forgiveness and cooperation is modern and western.  Remember, the French and the English had a long standing blood feud up until the late 1800s.  A fairly realistic view of any culture or nation to be hostile to it's neighbors unless there was a compelling reason to be otherwise. 

I know I'm going to ruffle some feathers here but do some actual research on this before flaming me.  Throughout the vast majority of human history, the "natural order" accepted by everyone is that the strong dominated the weak.  If two nations got into a conflict, it was a matter of when, not if, one country subsumed the other and enslaved the living remnants.  It's extremely new (about 150 years) and largely driven by American and British efforts that the idea of preserving different cultures and establishing a baseline for human rights.

Greetings!

You are absolutely correct, BadApple! Jhkim often likes to grasp at jello in arguing with me against this historical reality. The strong and powerful always rule over the weaker. Historically, much of the time that results in the weaker nation, state or tribe being slaughtered and, as you said, the remnants enslaved. That has been the historical norm for millennia. In more modern times, the dynamic is somewhat more "gentle"--and less genocidal--but the power-dynamic is still very much in play. The priorities and interests of the larger, stronger nations take precedence over and above whatever the smaller, weaker nations might desire. In the halls of the fancy dinners and diplomats drinking cognac and smoking cigars, the smaller, weaker nations understand that they need to shut the fuck up and get with the program.

Abroad, it is also entirely normal for nations and peoples to hate each other based upon their history, as well as racism and religion. Most everyone views themselves as superior to their filthy, inferior neighbors. *Laughing* It is only in the pampered, feminized West that we clutch our pearls and REEE about any of this, especially amongst ourselves, while smugly assuming such assumptions and priorities are the same everywhere else in the world. The reality, of course, is very different. Other nations and peoples embrace whatever hatred and animosities towards their neighbors, and we are so often shocked and horrified. They often view us as arrogant, naive, and simplistic, as well as oblivious to the issues, history, and priorities that are important to *them*--rather than what we see as important.

If course, it always boggles me how so many people in the West somehow believe that Asia is "Strange and Exotic". Well, on the surface, certainly. Dig a bit deeper, though, and they aren't so strange or exotic after all. Chew into their histories, their cultures, their religions, their political dynamics and environments--and they are just like us. They have the same struggles, the same fears, as people in the West. The peoples of Asia have often even had the very same problems and challenges as nations in the West, and sometimes they have responded to such problems in the same manner, while at other times, they resolved the same kind of problem, but by going a different route or method. Still, though, they have typically faced the same concerns, problems, and struggles.

In my own campaign world of Thandor, creating and detailing different nations, such as Asian-type nations, differentiating them from more Western or Classical nations has been easy for me. The languages are different; the food may be exotic; the clothing materials and styles are certainly different; just like the architecture, the armour, weapons and gear; the laws and legal systems often seem bizarre or especially harsh--but at the core of it all, it also becomes very familiar and clear. Tragedy, greed, pride, glory, tradition, fear, dynastic lineage, jealousy, revenge, racism, lust, decadence, strength, discipline--all of these flaws and virtues are found in each and every Asian society and culture, whether dealing with China, Japan, India, Thailand, Vietnam, Korea, the Asian Steppes, Mongolia, and everywhere in between. It has helped in kind of broadcasting these issues and details sometimes with a bright neon colour, to make it easier for Non-Asian players to clue into what is going on, but once they get a taste of it, they start recognizing the familiar patterns, the familiar themes--as a foundation. *Laughing* Once they actually understand all of the familiar commonalities, it becomes easier for them to then understand some of the differences in approach or values, based upon the culture, race, or religion.

Of course, I don't provide huge historical lectures or "Lore Dumps" upon the players, but kind of feed it to them gradually, over time, and through different avenues and mediums. They gradually grow to understand the commonalities, and when it comes to the differences, and the different responses, they understand what those differences actually are, and *why* they are different--what historical aspect, philosophy, religion, or cultural value that is the foundation that animates that difference.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

To borrow something else Shark said, I think another way to embed "asianess" in a setting is just being casual about different names and practices. Don't need to make a big deal of it every time, just consistently describe the different food and culture as if it is an everyday occurrence, which to those nations, it is. By the third time you talk about getting a meal at an inn or tavern the players might already understand that it's a Chinese/japanese/korean/vietnamese meal if you have been consistent with descriptions and you won't need to go into a lot of detail.

That of course assumes that the players are spending a lot of time in the not-Asia areas. If they are just visiting fantasy Japan for a couple adventures then why not make it mysterious and strange? Bringing it back to the original premise of the topic, realism is dumb in this situation because they are strangers in a strange land and trying to make it realistic can actually detract from the vibe.

And yes, Asians do hold on to national/racial animosities in the modern day. Hell, Europeans do too, it's just people pretend that Italians and Spaniards don't actually distrust each other deep down, or that fucking everyone hates gypsies.

Quote from: BadApple on November 02, 2024, 01:55:27 PMI have spent some time in Korea, Taiwan, and Japan as well as having lived in the Philippines for 18 years.  There is a very strong sense of animosity and superiority between many of the Asian countries.  It's very strong between Japanese and Korean.  There's centuries of history that fosters bad blood between them.  (It would be easy to see one the good guys and other one the bad guys but I can make a good case that "everyone's the asshole here.")

People generally have their reasons but, it is often either generational hatred or government nurtured hatred. Also, North Korea has their own sort of special spin on it. Almost all of the countries have forms of cooperation and friendliness that don't directly involve any Western country - though I don't know of any involving NK that have gone well.

I also think its worth digging more into the history and culture of specific countries because they have their own rich mythologies, culture and folklore.