Quote from: TristramEvans;620779Ah, the D&D sequels. I have not owned enough pot to consider renting them yet.I still make due with Hawk the Slayer.

The Sequels were not as bad as the original movie. The original movie permanently scarred my soul with it's badness. The sequels were merely boring.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;621337This is true. Alot of this arm-chair "feminism" looks an awful lot like "Slut Shaming" in practice.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the more you look at them the more similar extreme feminism and radical Islam look.

Quote from: elfandghost;620939AND

this: http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/ which recreates those pictures of revealing women in comic art and replaces them with Hawkeye to see if it still works. They largely don't.

I find this a fairly retarded way to try to make a point.
There's no doubt that some comic book art puts women in poses that are absurd, inappropriate for the context, or occasionally just plain biologically impossible (liefeld..).

But its also true that men and women tend to stand different, have different posture, centers of gravity, figures, etc.  
If you chose a bunch of comic book frames of male superheroes and tried to replace the men in the picture with Kitty Pride or Saturn Girl, you'd end up having an image that would look equally stupid.


RPGPundit

Quote from: Doctor Jest;621337This is true. Alot of this arm-chair "feminism" looks an awful lot like "Slut Shaming" in practice.

That's usually involving extreme instances of second wave feminism, which has been thoroughly discredited and is the domain of crazies.  I identify myself as a 3rd wave feminist, myself.

Generally - it's the respect test.  If all players at my table get respect and get to feel safe.  If that's not the case, then there is a problem.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;621337This is true. Alot of this arm-chair "feminism" looks an awful lot like "Slut Shaming" in practice.

There's the feminism that means something to me and most of the women of my acquaintance, which could probably be more accurately described as inclusion and equality and fairness. It's nothing earth-shattering at all, particularly not to people who were born in the 50s and later.

And then there's whatever these folks are pushing, which seems a lot more about exclusion and hatred and inequality. If they manage to take over the word "feminism," I've gotta find something else to call myself, 'cause I want no part of that bullshit.

Edited to add: That division into "waves" makes me nuts. I know lots of feminists, and we haven't felt a need to put ourselves into some bucket or other.

Quote from: RPGPundit;621538I find this a fairly retarded way to try to make a point.
There's no doubt that some comic book art puts women in poses that are absurd, inappropriate for the context, or occasionally just plain biologically impossible (liefeld..).

But its also true that men and women tend to stand different, have different posture, centers of gravity, figures, etc.  
If you chose a bunch of comic book frames of male superheroes and tried to replace the men in the picture with Kitty Pride or Saturn Girl, you'd end up having an image that would look equally stupid.

As I understand it, the point is to emphasize the ridiculousness of the posing of women.  A lot of people just don't get this point.  It does not imply that male and female figures should always be drawn identically.  

It is true that men and women tend to have different body language socially.  However, say, female basketball players in play tend to have roughly the same postures as male basketball players.  They don't play basketball in classically feminine poses.  

To some degree, comics are reflecting the larger societal issue here - but it is worse and more backwards in comics than it is in many other areas of life.  A lot of classically feminine behavior and posing is both sexualized and submissive.  It used to be that if a woman used assertive body language that was typical for men, she would be labeled as "bitchy" or similar.  It is becoming more acceptable for women to use assertive and/or strong body language.  So a female athlete who has just won a gold medal isn't expected to stand demurely as she gets her prize, and a female manager can assert herself in a meeting.  This doesn't seem to be true in many superhero comics, though.

Quote from: Dana;621541Edited to add: That division into "waves" makes me nuts. I know lots of feminists, and we haven't felt a need to put ourselves into some bucket or other.

It does make it easier to know when it's safe to reload and look for medpacks though.

Quote from: The Traveller;621502I've said it before and I'll say it again, the more you look at them the more similar extreme feminism and radical Islam look.

As I say, one reason I'm libertarian is that liberals and conservatives are ultimately more alike than either wants to admit.  

JG

Quote from: jhkim;621551As I understand it, the point is to emphasize the ridiculousness of the posing of women.  A lot of people just don't get this point.  It does not imply that male and female figures should always be drawn identically.  

It is true that men and women tend to have different body language socially.  However, say, female basketball players in play tend to have roughly the same postures as male basketball players.  They don't play basketball in classically feminine poses.  

To some degree, comics are reflecting the larger societal issue here - but it is worse and more backwards in comics than it is in many other areas of life.  A lot of classically feminine behavior and posing is both sexualized and submissive.  It used to be that if a woman used assertive body language that was typical for men, she would be labeled as "bitchy" or similar.  It is becoming more acceptable for women to use assertive and/or strong body language.  So a female athlete who has just won a gold medal isn't expected to stand demurely as she gets her prize, and a female manager can assert herself in a meeting.  This doesn't seem to be true in many superhero comics, though.

This is a good summary.

As an example, my kids had a Star Wars calendar last year that had a  mini-poster each month of a character from the SW Universe.  The month that had Leia on it had her in her Slave Girl outfit.  I could have chosen better, but to me the clothing was no big deal; she was wielding a polearm weapon, and by her face and the way she gripped it you could tell she meant business.  What bugged me about the pose wasn't the clothing --it was canon-- but how she was drawn.  In order to make both her ass and her chest prominent, the artist swung her hips around in such a way that Leia had more akin to Regan from The Exorcist than a woman about to attack.  What was worse was that in order for that contortion to actually work, the artist shaved Leia's abdomen down to where it was barely bigger than her neck.  

I mean, really?  The artist couldn't be bothered to give Leia a strong pose that wouldn't look like she was turning into Jessica Rabbit?  The Slave Girl outfit by itself was sexy enough.  BV's pic from Savage Sword is a great example of a woman's pose that works, looks sexy, and doesn't look ridiculous.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;621740BV's pic from Savage Sword is a great example of a woman's pose that works, looks sexy, and doesn't look ridiculous.

It was a good picture, not totally my cuppa but the artist was talented. I didn't find it particularly sexy though, but that's very subjective.

Quote from: Nexus;621749It was a good picture, not totally my cuppa but the artist was talented. I didn't find it particularly sexy though, but that's very subjective.

I don't think she's intentionally trying to pose as sexy in the pic, but the angle the artist chose definitely showed off her best assets.

Quote from: vytzka;620948To be honest, correct simulation of boob physics is not very high in my list of priorities when I'm looking at how well the game art portrays its setting or whatever. So while I appreciate you finding the link for me, it is not going to influence my tastes in game art a great deal.

Yeah, I fall more into "does it look cool?" camp. Realism is probably near the bottom when it comes to determining what I like in fantasy art. Generally, I find most "realistic" depictions of armor, weaponry, etc to be a bit dull.

Quote from: jhkim;621551As I understand it, the point is to emphasize the ridiculousness of the posing of women.  A lot of people just don't get this point.  It does not imply that male and female figures should always be drawn identically.

Exactly.

What's interesting is that in a few of the Hawkeye Initiative examples, Ol' Hawk doesn't look too bad - there's some measure of parity in poses revealed by the substitution.

The rest show just how much superhero comics are about fanservice.

Quote from: Nexus;621751Generally, I find most "realistic" depictions of armor, weaponry, etc to be a bit dull.

Generally, I find the  attitude that most "realistic" depictions of armor, weaponry, etc to be a bit dull to be more than a bit dull.

But I find most fantasy to be dull as shite anyway, so I guess that's to be expected.

Quote from: Dana;621541Edited to add: That division into "waves" makes me nuts. I know lots of feminists, and we haven't felt a need to put ourselves into some bucket or other.

A lot of feminist do feel that need.  If you put Andrea Dworkin and Ellen Willis in the same room, they'd not be singing songs and writing feminist books together: they'd be fighting to the death.  Sex-positive feminism is a relatively recent addition to the craft, and still an unfortunately controversial one.

Quote from: RPGPundit;621538If you chose a bunch of comic book frames of male superheroes and tried to replace the men in the picture with Kitty Pride or Saturn Girl, you'd end up having an image that would look equally stupid.

Some of the time, sure (and there are a good many poses that come a lot more comfortably for women than for men).  I don't think it's that common, though: there's not really a male equivalent to four inch heels.