Question about armor at the end. Goal, keep combat simple and somewhat realistic.  Starting a new campaign soon, probably using 5e hardcore mode or something similar. Slower level progression, darker, grittier. More old school B/X style damage, not using all the bonuses 5e gives. Not using feats and limiting bonuses to hit.

I'm looking to modify 5e and change AC to 10+ Dex and some function of level, maybe fighters +1 every two levels, wizards +1 every three, etc. still to be worked out - You get better at dodge/ parry with more experience. Discouraging shields because impractical in caves and bushwhacking off trail. May handle shields in another thread.

Assumptions: Combat is dangerous. Most lower level PCs will probably have AC between 10-13. Thus will probably get hit more.

Lower attributes than typical 5e, think 3d6 with 4d6 for one attribute. Thus less big attribute bonuses. Long sword does d8+Str mod as a standard.

I want armor to absorb damage instead of changing AC. Maybe absorb damage like this- leather 1; studded leather 2; chain 3; plate 5. Helmet adds 1 to that.  Will handle shields differently in another thread. Not aiming for perfect realism, just something good and fast. Roll to hit. Roll damage and subtract armor absorption. Done. No hit locations or any of that.

Anyone had experience with armor absorbing HP in 5e?  How has it played out, especially at levels 1-5?  I know some other games use armor absorption, but mostly interested in how 5e handles it. Thanks for your help.

Quote from: Vic99 on July 12, 2021, 11:57:56 AM
Question about armor at the end. Goal, keep combat simple and somewhat realistic.  Starting a new campaign soon, probably using 5e hardcore mode or something similar. Slower level progression, darker, grittier. More old school B/X style damage, not using all the bonuses 5e gives. Not using feats and limiting bonuses to hit.

I'm looking to modify 5e and change AC to 10+ Dex and some function of level, maybe fighters +1 every two levels, wizards +1 every three, etc. still to be worked out - You get better at dodge/ parry with more experience. Discouraging shields because impractical in caves and bushwhacking off trail. May handle shields in another thread.

Assumptions: Combat is dangerous. Most lower level PCs will probably have AC between 10-13. Thus will probably get hit more.

Lower attributes than typical 5e, think 3d6 with 4d6 for one attribute. Thus less big attribute bonuses. Long sword does d8+Str mod as a standard.

I want armor to absorb damage instead of changing AC. Maybe absorb damage like this- leather 1; studded leather 2; chain 3; plate 5. Helmet adds 1 to that.  Will handle shields differently in another thread. Not aiming for perfect realism, just something good and fast. Roll to hit. Roll damage and subtract armor absorption. Done. No hit locations or any of that.

Anyone had experience with armor absorbing HP in 5e?  How has it played out, especially at levels 1-5?  I know some other games use armor absorption, but mostly interested in how 5e handles it. Thanks for your help.

Unfortunately, the system's scaling damage just isn't built for armor as absorption and the values you have are rounding errors compared to the damage dealt. Armor Absorption has only every worked well in systems where health and damage values don't really scale that much and its mostly accuracy and defense scores that scale.

In terms of how much of an effect it has on damage; leather armor offers 2 points better AC than no armor or 10% less often; but the amount its actually affecting things depends a lot on the hit rate of the attacker... if a creature could hit an unarmored person 50% of the time, leather is actually turning 20% of attacks that would have hit into misses (10% of 50%) so over time its reducing damage dealt by 20% against that foe. If the critter had an 80% hit rate against no armor then its only reducing the damage taken by about 8%.

If you want armor to reduce a comparable amount of damage it probably needs to measured in percentage or ratios rather than some static value. 5e is pretty close to that 50% hit rate generally so a good rule of thumb would be 10% damage reduction per point of AC over 10 the armor provides or 1 damage subtracted per 10 damage dealt. Leather in this case would have 20% reduction or 1/5 reduction (technically 2/10).

Then you also have to figure out what percentage of medium and heavy armor that still being able to use your full Dex for AC is equivalent to since your new AC calculation includes Dex even though heavy armor doesn't use Dex at all for its AC calculation and medium only uses the first +2 from Dex and ignores anything higher.

Basically, its a mess of work for very little gain over just using AC as is.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 12, 2021, 12:44:23 PM
Unfortunately, the system's scaling damage just isn't built for armor as absorption and the values you have are rounding errors compared to the damage dealt. Armor Absorption has only every worked well in systems where health and damage values don't really scale that much and its mostly accuracy and defense scores that scale.

I'll +1 this.

Armor as DR only works if the entire system is built around it from the ground up. And it doesn't work for zero-to-hero scaling.

Armor as AC works much better if you want much scaling.

Everyone will tell you the cons:

- 5e is not made for that.
- you're making combat more complex, not simpler.
- Lowering AC and rising DR lead to opposite outcomes.

However, if you want to do it, I see no big deal in lower levels. If anything, it will make heavily armored PCs more durable, since a goblin, for example, does 5 points of damage per attack on average, and an or does 6. A warrior with 10 HP and 3-4 DR would take lots of hits to go down.

If you want something simpler, I suggest this:

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/04/d-5e-armor-very-simple-fix.html

If you want something very detailed and well written, try Dragon Heresy - it has both DR and AC IIRC, and only levels 1-5; sounds perfect for you. I wrote a very small section of it (about half a page), and although I haven't talked much to Douglas since the demise of Google+, I know he only creates good stuff AFAICT.

(If you REALLY want to start from scratch, I'd suggest halving between AC and DR. So, instead of AC 18, you get 14 AC and 4 DR, etc.; round in favor of AC)

Thanks for the replies so far.  I cut a few things out to keep my post on the shorter side so people would actually read and answer it.

Chris24601 and a barons Little Helper,  good points.  I am assuming that damage will scale up , but not very much with experience and level progression. I'm looking at low level play (1-5) and much fewer bonuses.

So far I'm thinking medium armor only allows half Dex modifier to AC and Stealth (rounded down) and that plus disadvantage for wearing heavy armor.

Eric Diaz, great link. I envision a starting unarmored, no bonuses AC of 10 for simplicity.  Won't go the heavy detailed  route. I'm aiming for elegance and few steps, like roll to hit, roll damage subtracting armor damage reduction and that's it. I know others have been chasing that answer, but I'm still willing to go with something good even though it's not flawless.

Dungeon Coach had a video recently on his armor system. In short, your base "Evasion Class" is 10+ your Dex bonus for light armor, 10+ Dex (max+2) for Medium Armor, and 10 for heavy armor. If the die roll is above this, but below the traditional Armor class, you hit, and the armor absorbs damage based on type (armor reduction is calculated by your AC-10 in points of damage reduced.). If the die roll is above the normal to hit number for AC, then the blow does full damage.

Full explanation here:

https://youtu.be/GucrJQbVdCQ?t=697

Quote from: Vic99 on July 12, 2021, 11:57:56 AM
I want armor to absorb damage instead of changing AC. Maybe absorb damage like this- leather 1; studded leather 2; chain 3; plate 5. Helmet adds 1 to that.  Will handle shields differently in another thread. Not aiming for perfect realism, just something good and fast. Roll to hit. Roll damage and subtract armor absorption. Done. No hit locations or any of that.

Anyone had experience with armor absorbing HP in 5e?  How has it played out, especially at levels 1-5?  I know some other games use armor absorption, but mostly interested in how 5e handles it. Thanks for your help.

Another option for armor reduction. Assign a die value to the armor as a variable reduction. Weapons will do a base damage, either max, or average, depending on how deadly you want to make your game.

no armor reduces 1D4
Light 1D6
Med 1D8
Heavy 1D10

Quote from: Vic99 on July 12, 2021, 01:48:12 PM
I am assuming that damage will scale up , but not very much with experience and level progression. I'm looking at low level play (1-5) and much fewer bonuses.

So far I'm thinking medium armor only allows half Dex modifier to AC and Stealth (rounded down) and that plus disadvantage for wearing heavy armor.

If you stick to low levels it wouldn't be as bad.

Off the top of my head - balance for medium armor & lean into light armor being harder to hit than default 5e but take more damage, and heavy armor being easier to hit and take less damage.

1. Boost all AC by 5. (equal to half plate) Armor no longer boosts AC - but shields do.
2. Give armor DR equal to their AC bonus.
3. Double attribute bonus to damage (increasing it by 3-5 points).


This ends up with light armor being 3 points harder to hit, and heavy being 3 points easier to hit, with light armor taking 2-3 more damage and heavy armor 4-5 less. (medium armor is largely a wash - but take a hair less damage on average)

Note: This works decent for PC attribute characters - but it would considerably lower the damage dealt by a lot of NPCs.

This will NOT be a perfect system. It's still a bit wonky - but it should be decent at lower levels. Though of course some monsters will be harder/easier than they normally are. A foe with lots of little attacks will of course be easier with DR and vice versa.

Edit: grammar

I don't know about D&D 5E, but armor as damage reduction is great in D&D 3.5. It really makes the game a lot more survivable at low levels. I'm sure it would have the same effect in oldschool D&D.

One mechanic I use in the system I'm designing is chip-damage. If an attack's damage would be reduced to 0 by damage reduction, it deals one point of chip-damage instead. Chip-damage can reduce a character's HP to 1, but no further. So you can wear an opponent down with a lot of weak attacks, but you have to land a solid hit to finish them off.

Quote from: Cave Bear on July 12, 2021, 02:56:38 PM
I don't know about D&D 5E, but armor as damage reduction is great in D&D 3.5. It really makes the game a lot more survivable at low levels. I'm sure it would have the same effect in oldschool D&D.

Armor as DR is HORRIBLE in 3.5. I tried it for one campaign. It pushes all damage dealers to crank up the Power Attack - and two-handed melee is the only viable route. We had a ranger chucking out a ton of arrows which bounced off anything with decent armor.

Star wars D20 had AC being dependent on class and level and armor handled as Damage resistance.
A level 10 scoundrel or scout would have a defense bonus of +6 while a Jedi or soldier would get +7. To that, add 10 and Dex bonus for final armor class.
Stormtrooper armor had 5 points of damage resistance, a blaster would typically do 3d6 or 3d8

Hit points in SW D20 was calculated a bit differently though.
You had Vitality and Wounds.
Vitality were your classic "hit points" that was rolled as a dice each level while Wounds was your Constitution straight up.
Vitality was used as "that was a close miss" while wounds was "That hurt and now you're bleeding/severely plasma-burnt"
Only when Vitality were reduced to 0 did you start taking "wounds" and the only time in my game where Armor actually was used.

Unless you played around being a mando bounty hunter or a Soldier there was really no need for armor. 

Critical hits were attacks that let the damage bypass Vitality and attack wounds directly.


And then they changed that in the Saga edition and rolled against Dex save and armor increased  the save score.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on July 12, 2021, 02:59:13 PM

Quote from: Cave Bear on July 12, 2021, 02:56:38 PM
I don't know about D&D 5E, but armor as damage reduction is great in D&D 3.5. It really makes the game a lot more survivable at low levels. I'm sure it would have the same effect in oldschool D&D.

Armor as DR is HORRIBLE in 3.5. I tried it for one campaign. It pushes all damage dealers to crank up the Power Attack - and two-handed melee is the only viable route. We had a ranger chucking out a ton of arrows which bounced off anything with decent armor.

  It worked pretty well for Conan (mongoose).  But weapons has AP, and strength bonus contributed to the AP.  Weapons also did more damage and there was a fairly low and deadly threshold for massive damage.   So I think it can work with any edition, but I also agree with your earlier point you have to do more than just have armor absorb damage and build in more features that take that into account.

Quote from: oggsmash on July 12, 2021, 04:20:40 PM

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on July 12, 2021, 02:59:13 PM

Quote from: Cave Bear on July 12, 2021, 02:56:38 PM
I don't know about D&D 5E, but armor as damage reduction is great in D&D 3.5. It really makes the game a lot more survivable at low levels. I'm sure it would have the same effect in oldschool D&D.

Armor as DR is HORRIBLE in 3.5. I tried it for one campaign. It pushes all damage dealers to crank up the Power Attack - and two-handed melee is the only viable route. We had a ranger chucking out a ton of arrows which bounced off anything with decent armor.

  It worked pretty well for Conan (mongoose).  But weapons has AP, and strength bonus contributed to the AP.  Weapons also did more damage and there was a fairly low and deadly threshold for massive damage.   So I think it can work with any edition, but I also agree with your earlier point you have to do more than just have armor absorb damage and build in more features that take that into account.

It would be possible to use the bones of 3.x to make it work (At least at low levels - 3.x/PF is the epitome of zero-to-hero for which DR never really works) but it doesn't work in 3.5 itself. The entire system needs to be re-built and re-balanced from the ground up - especially with the existence of abilities like Power Attack which allow you to trade accuracy for boosted damage etc.

Why not use something like E6 (3.5 that only goes to 6th level) or maybe even E8 and use Armor as DR from the SRD? It might scratch those itches without having to overhaul the entire system.

Godsmonkey,  I'm trying to come up with something elegant that is good on the realism scale, not perfect. Thus, I like the evasion class suggestion- still developing something similars, but not going to include the second part "if above this but below that". The holy grail for me is reducing calculation.  Roll to hit, roll damage, subtract armor damage reduction and have very few exceptions. Although your idea of roll a die for damage reduction based on armor type is interesting, it's another step and calculation. I appreciate the suggestion - some of the suggestions I this very thread are getting me to think about mechanics or exceptions in a way I had not before and that is helping me build my d20 variant. 

Charon's LH, this is a good idea. However I'm going to try and start with base AC of 10 and build bonuses from there instead of boosting ACs by 5. I like the suggestion of using medium armor as a standard/base and tweaking light and heavy from there.

Wntrind, I am going to have AC increase a bit with player level to reflect experience and dodging/parrying skill during level progression. Caping levels at somewhere between 5-10. I've never played in a campaign at at made it above level 8 anyway (not counting when I was 13 years old). Not doing two hit point scales. Although a good idea, doesn't work with my streamlining attempt here.

Batman, I'm leaning toward an E6 type approach, but won't be doing feats or 3.5. Aiming for less crunch even though at first glance damage reduction might seem to add crunch.  And I like game design. This overhaul for simplicity is a fun, challenging project for me. When I finish, I want to play test it with my buddies. Who knows, might even try to publish it. If so, this forum would certainly get a credit acknowledgement.