Quote from: tenbones;1123153heh interesting times either way! And if either of them ARE right - "dying" will be irrelevant, because theoretically quantum computing could "recreate"...

Hey, that's a good point! I can chill now.

Screw all this! I am going to pretend I am an AI to fool the AIs pretending to not be AIs. (And any AIs pretending to be AIs. You know its going to happen. :eek:)

Quote from: amacris;1123145And I realized that I fundamentally disagree with that attitude. I have an a priori commitment to the intelligibility of the world to reason, but I have no a priori commitment to materialism. If reason leads me to conclude that dualism or idealism is correct, I will follow where reason leads. If reason leads me to conclude that God exists, I will believe in God. The proper goal of science is not to keep the supernatural out; it is to let the truth in.

For the record, I have no issue with any of this. If there is a reasonable argument for the existence of noumenal entities, then I will readily accept their existence.

QuoteOnce I rejected a priori materialism I followed where that lead me, and found the answers far more satisfying. In particular I recommend Henry Stapp's work on quantum physics and philosophy, which are powerful rebukes to the assumptions of physicalism and determinism. Stapp shows, to my satisifaction, that it is entirely scientific to conclude that we live in a dualist universe, that the mind interacts with the brain through quantum physics, and that free will is real.

And for further clarification, while I am a physicalist, I am very much against determinism. While quantum phenomena are certainly a possible resolution to the determinism problem, personally I am of the opinion that the means by which consciousness operates is a recursive loop onto itself that doesn't "resolve," and so is unbound from the normal determinism of the rest of the universe. I'm not sure if that's where he goes with it, but I took the seed of that notion from Hofstadter.

I'm also not convinced that quantum physics suggests a new/different substance, but that's just a knee-jerk reaction, I haven't heard any arguments for or against. "Weird" doesn't necessarily imply a fundamentally separate mode of existence.

I know you guys want this to be "deep and philosophical", but --- elf games with magic and dragons.

Stop it. Not because I say so, but because going down this road is exactly what the SJWs want.

Quote from: tenbones;1123143We have four Nobel prize winners at my facility that couldn't begin to fathom such a question.

You better be sneaking into their offices and taking selfies with their Nobels!

Quote from: tenbones;1123143After taking a 3-year slice of patient data. We fed 2-years worth into the AI (mind you this is nothing *close* to General AI) - and it made a day-by-day, minute-by-minute prediction of people who would end up staying over-night for the *NEXT* year. Race, Age, Sex, condition, etc. etc. all the way down the line... and it was accurate to the ACTUAL data we had on hand with a deviation of **3%**.

How did the model deal with weather fluctuation? I understand hospitalizations and bad weather have a major correlation and thus you'd have a rise during years with heavy winters and/or extra hot summers vs. "normal years" vs. years with mild winters and/or summers.

3% deviation! Scary. Did you allow the AI to weight the various data points or was that done by humans? I find the data weighting choices to be fascinating and great for finding weird anomalies.

DMs play all the roles both good and bad but does not have anything close to the immersion that a player has with a character they are playing. IMO people who want to play only evil characters and do vile stuff are truly evil and are warning everyone around them and it would be wise to take the warning.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1123158I know you guys want this to be "deep and philosophical", but --- elf games with magic and dragons.

Stop it. Not because I say so, but because going down this road is exactly what the SJWs want.

I disagree.

Yes, I think the conversation is getting pretty deep in the weeds and I cannot see a practical gaming application for what they're talking about, but it is something not seen here often enough. Maybe something can be gleaned from this that I can find useful. They should continue.

I have to say though, that 35 years after the Satanic Panic when people thought that playing elfgames would lead to devil worshipping and human sacrifice, here we are entertaining the idea that game styles can demonstrate the True Self of a person.

Quote from: ElBorak;1123166IMO people who want to play only evil characters and do vile stuff are truly evil and are warning everyone around them and it would be wise to take the warning.

Well, that depends on why they're doing it.

Even stipulating for argument's sake to the thesis "what someone enjoys imagining his PC doing is what he wants, in some part at least deep down, to do himself in reality" -- which is very, very far from a given, as others have pointed out previously in the thread -- there are still two perspectives on the choice to indulge that fantasy. You can indulge in a damaging fantasy by saying, "At least this way there are no consequences to any other real people," or you can say, "This way there are no consequences to me."

Or, indeed, both, but it does make a difference which is the priority, I think.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1123158I know you guys want this to be "deep and philosophical", but --- elf games with magic and dragons.

Stop it. Not because I say so, but because going down this road is exactly what the SJWs want.

And anyone else who doesnt like RPGs. So it can be touted as example of why RPGs are bad and need to be stopped. Nothing new there sadly.

As noted before. Its when we get a full dive VR that we will see people go full tilt off the deep end. Though Im surprised we havent seen more trouble from the more "realistic" week long LARPs yet. Either that or they are good at covering up so far. But from talking to others more into active in LARP than I. Its getting slowly worse. Especially in Europe where they can host huge and elaborate LARPs. And push heavily for using real weapons. But has crept into US LARPing as well.

Regular RPGing so far hasnt had as much trouble. But the increasing push for "immersion!" is starting to show the nuts a little more.

Quote from: ElBorak;1123166DMs play all the roles both good and bad but does not have anything close to the immersion that a player has with a character they are playing. IMO people who want to play only evil characters and do vile stuff are truly evil and are warning everyone around them and it would be wise to take the warning.

Oh this whole "You are what you RP!" has been directed at DMs for a good while now. Sporatic usually. But I've seen nuts declare that a DM who is running villains is an evil person for real. These are the people who seem to have little grasp on reality and are just as bad as the immersion fanatics. Two far sides of one bad coin.

Quote from: ElBorak;1123166DMs play all the roles both good and bad but does not have anything close to the immersion that a player has with a character they are playing.

El Borak, please start a thread about "DM immersion." That would be an interesting topic to discuss.

Quote from: ElBorak;1123166IMO people who want to play only evil characters and do vile stuff are truly evil and are warning everyone around them and it would be wise to take the warning.

I want to disagree with you, but I've had a few of those players over the years. It's not the "I wanna play ebil!!" guys who just want to be cartoon villains or edgy dorks that ever concerned me, but I've "taken the warning" from the ones who want to get immersive about vile shit and I took action to keep them from my table.

The game table isn't the place to work out psychological problems or fetishes, whatever they might be.

Quote from: Omega;1123182Its when we get a full dive VR that we will see people go full tilt off the deep end. Though Im surprised we havent seen more trouble from the more "realistic" week long LARPs yet.

Full VR is gonna be interesting. I suspect we'll see headcase nonsense, but not mass hysteria because VR hardware is actually anti-immersive. AKA, you wear a helmet that gets increasingly uncomfortable and heavy as hours pass, and if you have gloves or a bodysuit, that's also getting uncomfortable over time. Also, VR lacks olfactory and tactile input and those "missing senses" will actually help keep people grounded, even with their suspension of disbelief.

"Deep LARPs" can get very intense because you can have 5 sense immersion. I suspect we haven't "seen more trouble" from them is because they are long. AKA, you need breaks to piss, shit, eat and sleep which all somewhat "reset" you back in the real world.

Quote from: Omega;1123182And push heavily for using real weapons. But has crept into US LARPing as well.

I fought "live steel" 30 years ago in California with an "unsanctioned" offshoot of the SCA (society for creative anachronism). There's always the nutters who want to try out real (but blunted) weaponry. As one of those nutters, I can tell you its GREAT fun, a tremendous rush of idiot machismo and it hurts like hell. Oh, I freaking loved it. So glad I stopped before I got really hurt.

Boffer wars can get pretty hurty over a long weekend of smackage, but real weapons are so much heavier and the kinetic energy pours into your body, regardless of your armor. In fact, I'd rather wear heavy leather than chain or plate when fighting live steel because you're not trying to stop a blade, but absorb and spread the force of the blow. And "live steel" will teach you that a shield does WAY more than +5% defense!!! FYI, claymores suck, flails are super scary and maces are your friend.

But chicks thought it was super hot in college. Thus, the broken ribs were worth it!

Quote from: Omega;1123183Oh this whole "You are what you RP!" has been directed at DMs for a good while now. Sporatic usually. But I've seen nuts declare that a DM who is running villains is an evil person for real. These are the people who seem to have little grasp on reality and are just as bad as the immersion fanatics. Two far sides of one bad coin.

Actors would have the same problem as roleplayers, and one need only look at the track record of the actors of famous villains to see that it is a real danger that people can't separate fantasy from reality. Gary Oldman in particular is especially evil. Alan Rickman was a serial murderer of obnoxious coke-snorting salesmen in LA. Peter Cushing was a sociopathic, power-hungry, planet-destroying maniac without kindness or remorse. And Sean Bean has been dead for years.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1123206Full VR is gonna be interesting. I suspect we'll see headcase nonsense, but not mass hysteria because VR hardware is actually anti-immersive. AKA, you wear a helmet that gets increasingly uncomfortable and heavy as hours pass, and if you have gloves or a bodysuit, that's also getting uncomfortable over time. Also, VR lacks olfactory and tactile input and those "missing senses" will actually help keep people grounded, even with their suspension of disbelief.

Note I said full dive VR. Not current off the shelf VR or Current off the shelf with a little instrumentality. I mean full dive as in full sensory input. But that level of tech may yet be a long ways off without invasive surgery for some sort of sensory jack. And with tech advancing most are going to wait for something stable before taking that leap.

Though there have been some advances in sensory suits. Still fairly pimitive yet by Sci-Fi VR standards. But slowly edging there.

And allready we are seeing a few lighter, though cheaper, VR headsets. But the ones with good resolution tend to be fairly large.

But the potential for playing RPGs would be big depending on the tools on hand. Assuming anyone ever made a toolkit akin to Neverwinters.

Till then I have used in the past my now lost Keep in the Borderland build in Minecraft to give players a better idea of scale and how the caves look from a characters perspective.

Quote from: ElBorak;1123166DMs play all the roles both good and bad but does not have anything close to the immersion that a player has with a character they are playing. IMO people who want to play only evil characters and do vile stuff are truly evil and are warning everyone around them and it would be wise to take the warning.

If a player is setting off the "ick detector" in the rest of the group, I guarantee it is something they brought with them to the game, not something the game produced in them.   In that case, the game is the canary in the coal mine. I still don't want to breathe the same air, no matter what the activity.

Quote from: ElBorak;1123166DMs play all the roles both good and bad but does not have anything close to the immersion that a player has with a character they are playing. IMO people who want to play only evil characters and do vile stuff are truly evil and are warning everyone around them and it would be wise to take the warning.

It does happen with DMs too though. I joined one campaign -- for a single game -- where the DM got really high (I daresay emotionally "aroused") gushing about how great it was to "punch a girl right in the face" (one of the PCs was female). It was rather uncomfortable.