I like the argument about calories one of the commenters made earlier. In most medieval fantasy settings, as well as other grimdark types and post-apocalyptic fantasy, it must be hard to get thicker and bouncier. As far as ugly is concerned, I think that's quite subjective. I don't know a lot of players who emphasized/worried about playing good looking characters, honestly.

Quote from: Cipher on January 22, 2024, 09:42:41 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2024, 08:49:53 PM

Quote from: Cipher on January 22, 2024, 08:14:44 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 22, 2024, 07:37:55 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2024, 06:17:38 PMThirsty Sword Lesbians made $298K in its Kickstarter, which is slightly more than the $291 for "Old-School Essentials: Advanced Fantasy".

What have the post-Kickstarter sales been like? It would not surprise me to find out that most of the people who wanted to actually buy and play TSL got their copy during said Kickstarter.

The only number that I could find is that as of 2021 Q3 it had sold 13,000 copies, as reported by Evil Hat Production.

Also of note is that even though the Kickstarter made $298K, the number of backers was 8,152.

In their own Kickstarter they list that after all was said and done, they bagged $88K as profit for their efforts.

Which clearly shows there is money to be made, but doesn't really say anything about the staying power of the game and how many people are actually playing it.

Thanks, Cipher. I tried checking its sales in Amazon, but they have bizarrely classified it as "Costume Weapons & Armor". It's #661 in that category, but it's not directly comparable to other RPGs.

https://www.amazon.com/Evil-Hat-Productions-17197-Lesbians/dp/1613171978/

It's one supplement, "Advanced Lovers & Lesbians", is rated #825 in "Martial Arts Swords". (?!?)

https://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Lovers-Lesbians-Supplement-Hardback/dp/1613172001/

I see. Any thoughts on why they would classify it in such a manner?

I don't know enough, hence why I ask, but does Amazon has a ttrpg classification? If not, then it would explain these choices.

I believe books can have multiple classifications. The aim here is presumably to get the game in front of whichever people browsing Amazon might buy it, even if it doesn't fit the category.

Yes.  They're NPC villains.  Jealous, envious, and bitter about their lot in life they'll go to any extreme to get revenge.

...Er, almost any extreme.  Running a few miles a day is asking too much it seems.

Quote from: David Johansen on January 18, 2024, 05:08:34 PMAnd then, of course, there is Warhammer where a character who isn't twisted, ugly, pox ridden, and stinky will probably get burned as a witch.

I can partially agree with you there.

Even the all female factions like Sisters of battle and Sisters of Silence look hot as can be, boob armor plates and all. 

Or lack of armor for female Dark Eldar.  Hell, Slannesh demons and troops are a thing of their own, if they can even be considered two separate genders anymore. 

Female Custodies and that one Imperial Guard general, Ursula Creed, have made it into the lore. However, that's the exception.

But the default are women so hot that their buns of steel still show through any power armor. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 28, 2024, 04:48:36 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on January 18, 2024, 05:08:34 PMAnd then, of course, there is Warhammer where a character who isn't twisted, ugly, pox ridden, and stinky will probably get burned as a witch.

I can partially agree with you there.

Even the all female factions like Sisters of battle and Sisters of Silence look hot as can be, boob armor plates and all. 

Or lack of armor for female Dark Eldar.  Hell, Slannesh demons and troops are a thing of their own, if they can even be considered two separate genders anymore. 

Female Custodies and that one Imperial Guard general, Ursula Creed, have made it into the lore. However, that's the exception.

But the default are women so hot that their buns of steel still show through any power armor. 

Like many things with Warhammer, this seems to be wildly inconsistent depending on when you were exposed to the franchise, what sources you read, and who you ask. I'm more familiar with the Warhammer Fantasy Universe, but that at least can be pretty schizophrenic on the topic. The general vibe which the marketing and most of the official art wants to put out seems to be that everything in the world is grim, dirty and ugly, but they're perfectly happy to describe characters as beautiful in rpg modules and canon fiction. And then on top of that the art style has changed drastically over the editions.

Personally, I find that to make either universe coherent, you have to look past the "grim-derp" and just assume whatever makes sense. Warhammer humans are humans. Some will be hot. some will be fugly. Most will be average. Aristocrats and wealthy professionals will be clean and well dressed. Gongfarmers will smell like shit. Elves are gorgeous. Goblins are ugly. Dark elves are beautiful, but in a creepy way. So on and so forth.

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2024, 06:50:53 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 28, 2024, 04:48:36 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on January 18, 2024, 05:08:34 PMAnd then, of course, there is Warhammer where a character who isn't twisted, ugly, pox ridden, and stinky will probably get burned as a witch.

I can partially agree with you there.

Even the all female factions like Sisters of battle and Sisters of Silence look hot as can be, boob armor plates and all. 

Or lack of armor for female Dark Eldar.  Hell, Slannesh demons and troops are a thing of their own, if they can even be considered two separate genders anymore. 

Female Custodies and that one Imperial Guard general, Ursula Creed, have made it into the lore. However, that's the exception.

But the default are women so hot that their buns of steel still show through any power armor. 

Like many things with Warhammer, this seems to be wildly inconsistent depending on when you were exposed to the franchise, what sources you read, and who you ask. I'm more familiar with the Warhammer Fantasy Universe, but that at least can be pretty schizophrenic on the topic. The general vibe which the marketing and most of the official art wants to put out seems to be that everything in the world is grim, dirty and ugly, but they're perfectly happy to describe characters as beautiful in rpg modules and canon fiction. And then on top of that the art style has changed drastically over the editions.

Personally, I find that to make either universe coherent, you have to look past the "grim-derp" and just assume whatever makes sense. Warhammer humans are humans. Some will be hot. some will be fugly. Most will be average. Aristocrats and wealthy professionals will be clean and well dressed. Gongfarmers will smell like shit. Elves are gorgeous. Goblins are ugly. Dark elves are beautiful, but in a creepy way. So on and so forth.

Three words

Female Nurgle cultists. 

So some Googling turned up that nerds like us still cannot accept unattractive women, even for Grandfather Nurgle's army. There is no stopping male hormones it seems.  We like what we like.

I have noticed something with female players on Roll20.  The art they use for their characters is always of attractive women even if their character's stats don't really reflect that.  Some guys will use art of average looking guys for their characters but women never do.  They always use art of attractive women.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 28, 2024, 08:41:23 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2024, 06:50:53 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 28, 2024, 04:48:36 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on January 18, 2024, 05:08:34 PMAnd then, of course, there is Warhammer where a character who isn't twisted, ugly, pox ridden, and stinky will probably get burned as a witch.

I can partially agree with you there.

Even the all female factions like Sisters of battle and Sisters of Silence look hot as can be, boob armor plates and all. 

Or lack of armor for female Dark Eldar.  Hell, Slannesh demons and troops are a thing of their own, if they can even be considered two separate genders anymore. 

Female Custodies and that one Imperial Guard general, Ursula Creed, have made it into the lore. However, that's the exception.

But the default are women so hot that their buns of steel still show through any power armor. 

Like many things with Warhammer, this seems to be wildly inconsistent depending on when you were exposed to the franchise, what sources you read, and who you ask. I'm more familiar with the Warhammer Fantasy Universe, but that at least can be pretty schizophrenic on the topic. The general vibe which the marketing and most of the official art wants to put out seems to be that everything in the world is grim, dirty and ugly, but they're perfectly happy to describe characters as beautiful in rpg modules and canon fiction. And then on top of that the art style has changed drastically over the editions.

Personally, I find that to make either universe coherent, you have to look past the "grim-derp" and just assume whatever makes sense. Warhammer humans are humans. Some will be hot. some will be fugly. Most will be average. Aristocrats and wealthy professionals will be clean and well dressed. Gongfarmers will smell like shit. Elves are gorgeous. Goblins are ugly. Dark elves are beautiful, but in a creepy way. So on and so forth.

Three words

Female Nurgle cultists. 

So some Googling turned up that nerds like us still cannot accept unattractive women, even for Grandfather Nurgle's army. There is no stopping male hormones it seems.  We like what we like.

I mean, horny fanart is going to be a thing no matter what the source material is. I'm not sure how much it says about the universe or even how most people interpret it.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 28, 2024, 09:02:30 PMI have noticed something with female players on Roll20.  The art they use for their characters is always of attractive women even if their character's stats don't really reflect that.  Some guys will use art of average looking guys for their characters but women never do.  They always use art of attractive women.

Yeah I've generally noticed the same, with the caveat that female players will often choose not to play beautiful women. It's just that when they do, they tend to play as inhuman a character as they can. If they're not going to go with a hot chick, they'll be the one choosing to play a rock-monster or a sentient parakeet or whatever the weirdest thing the setting offers.

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2024, 11:33:34 PMYeah I've generally noticed the same, with the caveat that female players will often choose not to play beautiful women. It's just that when they do, they tend to play as inhuman a character as they can. If they're not going to go with a hot chick, they'll be the one choosing to play a rock-monster or a sentient parakeet or whatever the weirdest thing the setting offers.

I've seen this too, but I thought it might be an outlier.

I would think Orcs would find them a tasty and easy treat, not only meat is back in the menu but human bacon too.

I don't think I've *ever* had a player (male or female) play a fat, ugly female PC in one of my games. So from that admittedly anecdotal data I'd say "no, such characters aren't popular."

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 28, 2024, 09:02:30 PMI have noticed something with female players on Roll20.  The art they use for their characters is always of attractive women even if their character's stats don't really reflect that.  Some guys will use art of average looking guys for their characters but women never do.  They always use art of attractive women.

In my games, the females playing female characters usually want their PC to be pretty or even beautiful. Multiple times I've had female players describe a low Charisma score PC as being pretty, but cool/aloof/rude/arrogant/etc to explain the low score.

Quote from: Brad on January 18, 2024, 03:01:51 PMI see enough fat, ugly broads whenever I go to Walmart, why would I want to play one in a fantasy game?

Greetings!

Whenever I step inside a Walmart, I always laugh, as I feel like I have stepped into some crazy, human zoo!

So many people I see there are mind-numbingly gross and ugly. *Especially* the women. I quietly laugh hysterically, as so many of these gross, women Hogbeasts wear see-through pajamas, or too-tight, way-too small shirts that only cover half their torse, so that their rolls of bellyfat are jiggling openly for all to see!

And oftentimes, so many women wear brightly coloured, furry animal slippers!

In every aisle, there is yet some new horrific trainwreck to assault a person's eyes.

*Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 01, 2025, 09:44:20 PM

Quote from: Brad on January 18, 2024, 03:01:51 PMI see enough fat, ugly broads whenever I go to Walmart, why would I want to play one in a fantasy game?

Greetings!

Whenever I step inside a Walmart, I always laugh, as I feel like I have stepped into some crazy, human zoo!

So many people I see there are mind-numbingly gross and ugly. *Especially* the women. I quietly laugh hysterically, as so many of these gross, women Hogbeasts wear see-through pajamas, or too-tight, way-too small shirts that only cover half their torse, so that their rolls of bellyfat are jiggling openly for all to see!

And oftentimes, so many women wear brightly coloured, furry animal slippers!

In every aisle, there is yet some new horrific trainwreck to assault a person's eyes.

*Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

LOL, every Wal-Mart around the country must be the same.  It's like this in every one I've ever been in.  The too-tight clothes, the animal print slippers, the blubber hanging out of the too-small shirt.  Add in lots of bad hair dye  jobs, facial piercings, and cheap tattoos that look as if they got them in prison from their lesbian cellmate with a Bic pen and a sharpened spoon stolen from the kitchen.

I never play unattractive characters, but, then again, I adhere to a traditioinalist school, where beauty is associated with virtue and ugliness with vice. Of course, the Devil can appear in a fair form if he wishes.

Quote from: I on January 02, 2025, 02:06:55 AM

Quote from: SHARK on January 01, 2025, 09:44:20 PM

Quote from: Brad on January 18, 2024, 03:01:51 PMI see enough fat, ugly broads whenever I go to Walmart, why would I want to play one in a fantasy game?

Greetings!

Whenever I step inside a Walmart, I always laugh, as I feel like I have stepped into some crazy, human zoo!

So many people I see there are mind-numbingly gross and ugly. *Especially* the women. I quietly laugh hysterically, as so many of these gross, women Hogbeasts wear see-through pajamas, or too-tight, way-too small shirts that only cover half their torse, so that their rolls of bellyfat are jiggling openly for all to see!

And oftentimes, so many women wear brightly coloured, furry animal slippers!

In every aisle, there is yet some new horrific trainwreck to assault a person's eyes.

*Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

LOL, every Wal-Mart around the country must be the same.  It's like this in every one I've ever been in.  The too-tight clothes, the animal print slippers, the blubber hanging out of the too-small shirt.  Add in lots of bad hair dye  jobs, facial piercings, and cheap tattoos that look as if they got them in prison from their lesbian cellmate with a Bic pen and a sharpened spoon stolen from the kitchen.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Isn't that just boggling how so many people--again, especially the women--that you see in Walmart look like that? I've been into Walmarts in a number of states, west of the the Mississippi, and the women at Walmart. Yeah, they are absolute fugly Hogbeasts. The men can be terrible looking too, but they tend to be more normal looking.

I often use such descriptions and depictions for NPC's in my campaign. The Players always roll hysterically at the descriptions and mannerisms. They say that I hugely increase the realism and believability of the campaign with my NPC portrayals. They say they SO REAL! *laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK