OK, so I got curious, and went and scrolled through the Player's books or Corebooks for a bunch of the more "mainstream" recent games I have PDFs of on my computer. I'll spare you all a slideshow, but the trend of muddy artwork with plain-looking women is noticeable in the most recent editions of 13th Age, 7th Sea, Call of Cthulhu, most of the Modiphius 2d20 games, Symbaroum, Shadow of the Demon Lord, Iron Kingdoms and Runequest.

The two exceptions I came across, where there were PC illustrations that had something of the flair of those 80s glamour girls in the BECMI books, were:

The Dark Eye:


and Forbidden Lands:


Probably not a coincidence that both games are European.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 18, 2024, 10:39:23 AM
Genshin Impact is a game played monthly by about 25 million women. (Which, for perspective, is about what the TOTAL active gamers is on Steam at any time). And all their female character look like this:

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 05:39:35 PM
The two exceptions I came across, where there were PC illustrations that had something of the flair of those 80s glamour girls in the BECMI books

The Dark Eye:

Bleah. I don't have a problem with pretty women characters, but I don't care for medieval adventurers looking like 80s glamour girls - and I hate the anime trend. All due respect to the artistic skill of Boris Vallejo, but I don't picture my adventurers - male or female - looking like they're a model just out of hair and makeup posing for their glamour shot -- or an anime romance character just before a kissing scene.

If those are my options, I prefer the "plain" trend.

  Whereas I am the exact opposite, jhkim! More cheesecake! More beefcake! More! More! More! 

Though a little diversity is nice to baseline how cakey my cake is. Without a one you cannot gauge a ten. 

Quote from: David Johansen on January 18, 2024, 05:08:34 PM
And then, of course, there is Warhammer where a character who isn't twisted, ugly, pox ridden, and stinky will probably get burned as a witch.

To be fair, in the Old World a character who is twisted, ugly, pox-ridden and stinky is also fairly likely to get burned as a witch.

Quote from: jhkim on January 18, 2024, 05:55:16 PMI don't care for medieval adventurers looking like 80s glamour girls ... I don't picture my adventurers - male or female - looking like they're a model just out of hair and makeup posing for their glamour shot.... If those are my options, I prefer the "plain" trend.

A point worth noting. "Ugliness" can be a product of context, preparation and situation as much as inherent lack of comeliness.

How much of the trend towards "plain" in RPG art is about creating verisimilitude about the typical events and experiences of adventure, rather than attempting to be "representative" of particular groups in the audience?

Quote from: jhkim on January 18, 2024, 05:55:16 PM
Bleah. I don't have a problem with pretty women characters, but I don't care for medieval adventurers looking like 80s glamour girls - and I hate the anime trend. All due respect to the artistic skill of Boris Vallejo, but I don't picture my adventurers - male or female - looking like they're a model just out of hair and makeup posing for their glamour shot -- or an anime romance character just before a kissing scene.

If those are my options, I prefer the "plain" trend.

I actually share your dislike of Boris Vallejo. His art is almost too photoreal, which combined with his tendency to pick bodybuilders as figure modes, tends to make his paintings look like modern people in costumes, rather than people in a fantasy universe. At the same time, I do think art should be aesthetically appealing, and fantasy heroes ought to be at least a little bit larger than life.

I would cite some of Larry Elmore's black-and-whites as a happy medium between the two extremes:


That's an aesthetically pleasing picture of a pretty lady. Not very realistic, but I still completely buy that she's an adventurous character in a fantasy world.

I also really like this piece (which I think is from a 7th Sea book):


Not exactly a pinup model, but she's bursting with personality, and again I believe her as a character in her environment (despite the fact she's holding her sword wrong).

The sorceress in 1st edition pathfinder, got it just right. 

Just downloaded the free Valiant Adventures rpg quickstart. Suggest you pop along to their website to snag yourselves a copy. For the most part, the art is fine. But, there is a prime example of what this thread is about on page 10. And the sample PCs they have provided are something else. I certainly wouldn't want to play any character that looked like those bunch of teen misfits. They don't look anything like superheroes. What are GR playing at?

Quote from: Jam The MF on January 19, 2024, 01:38:37 PM
The sorceress in 1st edition pathfinder, got it just right.

And that's why Paizo quickly changed her design, same with the Barbarian.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 08:20:14 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 18, 2024, 05:55:16 PM
Bleah. I don't have a problem with pretty women characters, but I don't care for medieval adventurers looking like 80s glamour girls - and I hate the anime trend. All due respect to the artistic skill of Boris Vallejo, but I don't picture my adventurers - male or female - looking like they're a model just out of hair and makeup posing for their glamour shot -- or an anime romance character just before a kissing scene.

If those are my options, I prefer the "plain" trend.

I actually share your dislike of Boris Vallejo. His art is almost too photoreal, which combined with his tendency to pick bodybuilders as figure modes, tends to make his paintings look like modern people in costumes, rather than people in a fantasy universe. At the same time, I do think art should be aesthetically appealing, and fantasy heroes ought to be at least a little bit larger than life.

I would cite some of Larry Elmore's black-and-whites as a happy medium between the two extremes

I like your two pictures, but I don't think all art needs to be just like those. I agree art should be aesthetically appealing, but that doesn't mean that PCs should all look the same. Gandalf doesn't have to look like a hot anime silver fox -- he can be a wise old bearded man.

There can be all of fierce-looking heavily muscled PCs, and lithe hot-looking PCs, and grizzled pirate PCs, and so forth.

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2024, 02:17:02 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 08:20:14 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 18, 2024, 05:55:16 PM
Bleah. I don't have a problem with pretty women characters, but I don't care for medieval adventurers looking like 80s glamour girls - and I hate the anime trend. All due respect to the artistic skill of Boris Vallejo, but I don't picture my adventurers - male or female - looking like they're a model just out of hair and makeup posing for their glamour shot -- or an anime romance character just before a kissing scene.

If those are my options, I prefer the "plain" trend.

I actually share your dislike of Boris Vallejo. His art is almost too photoreal, which combined with his tendency to pick bodybuilders as figure modes, tends to make his paintings look like modern people in costumes, rather than people in a fantasy universe. At the same time, I do think art should be aesthetically appealing, and fantasy heroes ought to be at least a little bit larger than life.

I would cite some of Larry Elmore's black-and-whites as a happy medium between the two extremes

I like your two pictures, but I don't think all art needs to be just like those. I agree art should be aesthetically appealing, but that doesn't mean that PCs should all look the same. Gandalf doesn't have to look like a hot anime silver fox -- he can be a wise old bearded man.

There can be all of fierce-looking heavily muscled PCs, and lithe hot-looking PCs, and grizzled pirate PCs, and so forth.

Gandalf the Shredded Bro

https://images.nightcafe.studio/jobs/lpwinwPYopnpGrYD6PY6/lpwinwPYopnpGrYD6PY6--1--gw7bl.jpg?tr=w-1600,c-at_max

Quote from: Simon W on January 19, 2024, 02:00:38 PM
Just downloaded the free Valiant Adventures rpg quickstart. Suggest you pop along to their website to snag yourselves a copy. For the most part, the art is fine. But, there is a prime example of what this thread is about on page 10. And the sample PCs they have provided are something else. I certainly wouldn't want to play any character that looked like those bunch of teen misfits. They don't look anything like superheroes. What are GR playing at?

That's Zephyr.

I am not going to claim to be a huge Valiant Comics fan. I googled her and this is what I found:

https://valiant.fandom.com/wiki/Faith_Herbert_(Valiant_Entertainment)#Powers_and_Abilities


It seems her debut was in 1992 and from what I could find, she was always at least Hollywood pudgy if not outright obese.

Of course, her new reboot design leans more heavily on that, but it seems she was always meant to be that way.












Still, she stood out because she was rare. I don't think anyone is actually clamoring for characters like these. As others have said on this thread, most people would rather see good looking characters in media. This is the reason why most actors are attractive.

In Hollywood there's like 1 Danny DeVito for every 100 Brad Pitts.

Even IRL actors on superhero movies have to train like crazy and roid out of their gills to achieve the "superhero" physique, so its not like women are the only ones represented as a very hard to achieve beauty standard.

Where I disagree is that saying this is "unrealistic". You can go back as far as you want, even before readily available plastic surgery or steroids, and you will still find good looking men and women as actors. They had symmetrical and pretty faces and a lean physique, with the men having some muscle on them.

But even on that last picture of 90s comic book cheese and beefcake, the women on the right don't have impossible body structure and the men also don't have an impossible amount of muscle. It's just improbable.

A fat adventurer doesn't really make sense. By virtue of having to eat on the move and walk a lot, there's no way an adventurer is going to be obese. Maybe a little pudgy at best. A fat character in a medieval fantasy would have to be a rich merchant or noble that doesn't do anything but eat and scheme or something along those lines.

In this sense, I don't mind Zephyr's design, she is supposed be in a modern environment with McDonald's or its analogue and since she can fly she doesn't need to move all that much.

For me, design has to make sense, so plain or average looking adventurers would be more than acceptable. But, if I have to choose between fat and/or ugly or lean and/or good looking, I'll rather take the latter any day of the week.

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2024, 02:17:02 PM
I like your two pictures, but I don't think all art needs to be just like those. I agree art should be aesthetically appealing, but that doesn't mean that PCs should all look the same. Gandalf doesn't have to look like a hot anime silver fox -- he can be a wise old bearded man.

There can be all of fierce-looking heavily muscled PCs, and lithe hot-looking PCs, and grizzled pirate PCs, and so forth.

I don't think anyone was arguing any different. Though now that you've suggested it, the idea of recasting Lord of The Rings with Galdalf-Chan and a fellowship of anime bimbos is a funny one.

I was going to do a good-art-bad-art comparison for bearded wizard types, but honestly wizards get treated pretty well in PHB art relative to other classes. Instead, I'll just post this illustration of Gandalf, because it's awesome.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 08:20:14 PM
I would cite some of Larry Elmore's black-and-whites as a happy medium between the two extremes:

Nice!

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 08:20:14 PM
I also really like this piece (which I think is from a 7th Sea book):

Nice x 10!

you will dump charisma as low as 5 to get 18/00 strength and you will be happy.