I'm pretty well convinced at this point that the drive towards uglier female (and to a lesser extent male) characters in western videogames. which is noticeable, is entirely about ESG compliance, and not in any way caused by agenda or attempting to appeal to a market. I very much doubt the success of franchise-building successes of "hot girl" games like the Witcher, Mass Effect, Baldur's Gate 3 or Overwatch goes unnoticed by the industry.

In my entire time roleplaying, I can only think of one time a player intentionally chose to make an overweight, unattractive female character. Even then, I'm not sure the unattractive part was intentional. This player was a very left wing woman, possibly left wing enough to buy into the idea that beauty standards are a social construct. I've GM-ed the same player a couple of other times, and she usually plays very attractive (albeit in a shy, nerdy kind of way) characters and is keen to have them be involved in in-game romances.

As others have said, I think most players, especially women, tend to play a character they'd like to be, and most women, including left leaning ones, want to be beautiful.

Quote from: Zalman on January 18, 2024, 10:33:05 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 18, 2024, 10:18:45 AM
And for that matter, I have rarely seen anyone want to play the grossly muscle-bound champion weight-lifter type, even in male characters, either.  Every now and then someone will go for the Conan look.

Are you saying "the Conan look" is something different than the "grossly muscle-bound champion weight-lifter type"? That would be confusing, since for the masses who get their idea of the "Conan look" from the 1982 film, he is quite literally a muscle-bound champion weight lifter. (In fact, Arnold came out of retirement while training for the film, to casually bag his seventh Mr. Olympia title. Pretty much the epitome!)

Supposedly Arnie actually had to drop some weight for the role, because he was too bulky to convincingly swing the sword around.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 18, 2024, 10:39:23 AM
Genshin Impact is a game played monthly by about 25 million women. (Which, for perspective, is about what the TOTAL active gamers is on Steam at any time). And all their female character look like this:



So the idea that woman want to play fat or ugly characters is simply propaganda.

I wonder what the international demographics for that figure are. I.e., what percentage of those women are in the asian markets, where the culture is less woke on the subject of aesthetics than it is in America?

Activists love the idea of representation and body positivity in game art.  Actual women like looking at attractive women.  That's why women's magazines are full of pictures of attractive women.  Another game that has a strong female player base in Final Fantasy XIV.  The women in it look like this.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 18, 2024, 10:40:49 AM
Not exactly.  I've had a few go for that look, as the exceptions, which is why its occurrence in my games is rare instead of non-existent.  However, the vast majority of my players going after a Conan-type on the surface have deliberately tried to emphasize the overall athleticism, even limberness of the Conan-type character instead of weight-lifter parts.  More speedy linebacker or big defensive back than Arnold.  I realize that's not entirely inline with either the source material on Conan, or physics, or even the way Conan's speed is a big part of his muscle development, but nonetheless in the case of how the players view appearance, that's been my experience.  (Even so, it's somewhat inline with reality, given the trade-off between muscle mass and limberness--close enough for game purposes.)

To be fair Conan himself isn't always entirely in line with physics, so that makes sense!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 18, 2024, 04:54:07 AM

Quote from: SHARK on January 18, 2024, 12:02:34 AMAre fat, ugly women characters popular in your campaigns?

When I run D&D, the only character images are whatever the player draws. Therefore, all the characters are ugly, because the fucking players can't draw. If they could draw, they'd be doing a real art, not sitting around a table eating chips and pretending to be an elf.

Because doing both would be an impossibility?

Quote from: SHARK on January 18, 2024, 12:02:34 AM
Are fat, ugly women characters popular in your campaigns?

No.

Quote from: SHARK on January 18, 2024, 12:02:34 AMHave you observed any cross-pollination of this trend from video game art to TTRPG art, in making women characters fat and ugly?

Some, but I've also noticed that it doesn't sell well.

The introduction of fat, ugly women in TTRPGs is an attempt at self-inserts by the writers or artists who imagine that their internet popularity translates into Real World physical beauty. It also affects comics and animation. The fucking horrible Scooby-Doo remake Velma has the titular character resemble the person behind the show, Mindy Kaling. The comic book I Am Not Starfire has a protagonist who is fat, ugly, childish, and bears a striking resemblance to the author.

Not just women, but men in games that I have run tend to want to play physically attractive characters in game. Why? Because it is a GAME, it is ENTERTAINMENT. Nothing wrong with some wish fulfillment while playing a game.

I see enough fat, ugly broads whenever I go to Walmart, why would I want to play one in a fantasy game?

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 18, 2024, 09:46:04 AM
I have never seen a single player, either male or female, play a female PC who was overweight or unattractive.

I'll admit it: the one time I played a female character was in 50 Fathoms, where I played some female squid thing.  "Oh, so she had boobs and a vagina right?"  Nope and nope; not that it ever came up, but I figured she would reproduce like a squid does (squirts eggs out on the floor, male squirts on the eggs, no lactation so no breasts, and all of it about as arousing as watching a spastic make a PB&J sandwich*).  Which isn't anything like mammals do, but still much less horrific than octopus reproduction.

(*"Hey!  Spastic squid reproduction on bread is -my- fetish!"  No it isn't, hypothetical internet person, no it isn't.)

Quote from: Zalman on January 18, 2024, 10:33:05 AM
Are you saying "the Conan look" is something different than the "grossly muscle-bound champion weight-lifter type"? That would be confusing, since for the masses who get their idea of the "Conan look" from the 1982 film, he is quite literally a muscle-bound champion weight lifter. (In fact, Arnold came out of retirement while training for the film, to casually bag his seventh Mr. Olympia title. Pretty much the epitome!)

Body-building like Mr. Olympia is different than weight-lifting. Here, for example, is world-record weightlifter Lasha Talakhadze:



Athletes have different builds and looks depending on the sport.

Going back to the OP -

Quote from: SHARK on January 18, 2024, 12:02:34 AM
Are fat, ugly women characters popular in your campaigns?

Have you observed any cross-pollination of this trend from video game art to TTRPG art, in making women characters fat and ugly?

I answered before about some of the cool ugly women in my games, like the troll mother "Ma Nutkin". But as for the question from the thread title -- certainly they aren't popular. Currently, what's popular in general is fantasy art for 5E - specifically anime-inspired character art of thin, good-looking men and women. I find it blah.

I haven't notice any trend of fat and ugly women in TTRPG art that I've seen - it mostly seems to go with the anime-inspired trend.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on January 18, 2024, 03:34:25 PMI'll admit it: the one time I played a female character was in 50 Fathoms, where I played some female squid thing.

Hysterically, there was a Star Trek novel written back in the day -- I can't remember its title but it was definitely published pre-Next Generation -- in which the author was clearly taking the mickey on Captain Kirk's tendency to mack on alien babes; it created a minor alien character whose exotic beauty captivated the Captain, only for him to discover (fortunately through simple discussion rather than anything more humiliatingly graphic) that her species was descended from a piscean, seagoing lifeform that had evolved to amphibious sapience, and who reproduced exactly the way you describe. The female alien in question found mammalian reproduction as horrifying and laughable to her kind as Kirk found hers.  ("All that clutching...!" is the one line of dialogue I still remember.)

What interests me about the issue is that it is, in a way, two solutions to the same desire: we can fantasize about being an imaginary person who's better than we are in critical ways, or we fantasize about living in an imaginary world in which the way we are is the optimum way to be for success, gratification, excitement and prosperity. (And RPGing quite frequently encompasses both.)

Quote from: jhkim on January 18, 2024, 03:54:38 PM
I haven't notice any trend of fat and ugly women in TTRPG art that I've seen - it mostly seems to go with the anime-inspired trend.

So fat characters, particularly ladies, are something I've only seen in the art for fringe products, like Thirsty Sword Lesbians:


In mainstream products, I would say the trend is more towards "plain" looking women, such as this druid from the 5e PHB:


Or these ladies from Pathfinder 2:




In fairness, it's hard to say if this is down to intentional ugliness, or just an unflattering art style. Neither is it necessarily new. These ladies from the 3.5 PHB probably aren't setting any hearts aflutter either:




Flipping through the PHBs for the various of editions, the only one I found where they were clearly trying to show beautiful female PCs was the Rules Cyclopedia:

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 04:32:00 PMFlipping through the PHBs for the various of editions, the only one I found where they were clearly trying to show beautiful female PCs was the Rules Cyclopedia:

A friend of mine grabbed the image of the legendary Morgan Ironwolf (this is from the Tom Moldvay Basic book) for a female paladin character he created in the '80s, which is why I've always remembered it:

And then, of course, there is Warhammer where a character who isn't twisted, ugly, pox ridden, and stinky will probably get burned as a witch.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 04:32:00 PM
Flipping through the PHBs for the various of editions, the only one I found where they were clearly trying to show beautiful female PCs was the Rules Cyclopedia:

I suggest you try the Player's Manual for Basic Mentzer D&D. I count 8 attractive women, and no unattractive ones. Though I am amused to think of the picture of the hero with Aleena over his shoulder getting the Thirsty Sword Lesbians treatment. Now that's when you need a hero with an Arnie-esque physique.

Quote from: Krazz on January 18, 2024, 05:23:06 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 04:32:00 PM
Flipping through the PHBs for the various of editions, the only one I found where they were clearly trying to show beautiful female PCs was the Rules Cyclopedia:

I suggest you try the Player's Manual for Basic Mentzer D&D. I count 8 attractive female PCs, and no unattractive ones. Though I am amused to think of the picture of the hero with Aleena over his shoulder getting the Thirsty Sword Lesbians treatment. Now that's when you need a hero with an Arnie-esque physique.

How many of those illustrations are Aleena, though? In all seriousness, that does seem to have been a trend with the Basic Rulebooks. Curious that the same is not true of AD&D. I flipped through the 1st and 2nd edition PHBs, and there were almost no women in them at all.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 05:28:27 PM

Quote from: Krazz on January 18, 2024, 05:23:06 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 04:32:00 PM
Flipping through the PHBs for the various of editions, the only one I found where they were clearly trying to show beautiful female PCs was the Rules Cyclopedia:

I suggest you try the Player's Manual for Basic Mentzer D&D. I count 8 attractive female PCs, and no unattractive ones. Though I am amused to think of the picture of the hero with Aleena over his shoulder getting the Thirsty Sword Lesbians treatment. Now that's when you need a hero with an Arnie-esque physique.

How many of those illustrations are Aleena, though? In all seriousness, that does seem to have been a trend with the Basic Rulebooks. Curious that the same is not true of AD&D. I flipped through the 1st and 2nd edition PHBs, and there were almost no women in them at all.

You can never have too many pictures of Aleena.