Greetings!

This is an interesting video by Melonie Mac Go Boom. She discusses the trend in video games of making women characters fat and ugly. Interestingly, she also mentions Anita Sarkeesian. I have heard about some cross-pollination of these trends in art with TTRPG's. Thus, I thought the video would be relevant as a reference point.

Are fat, ugly women characters popular in your campaigns?

Have you observed any cross-pollination of this trend from video game art to TTRPG art, in making women characters fat and ugly?

Interesting stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well, they add some realism to the setting.  It's not like men are falling all over themselves to play fat men.  There is a tendancy to make fat villains, male and female.  I suppose the association of youth and beauty with goodness is a little questionable.  But let's face it, rpg characters are aspirational and I don't think many people aspire to be fat and ugly.  I do recall an interview with an immigrant, long long ago, who was asked why he wanted to move to America, his answer was, "because I want to live in a place where poor people are fat."

Honestly though, I think disecting and unpacking a lot of these things too much is unhealthy.  There's nothing wrong with having fat and ugly characters.  Realistically they'll have lower Strength and Dexterity and higher Size but again, these games aren't modelling reality as much as they are modelling expectations built on fiction and movies.  I've often noted that one of the advantages of a points system is that you don't have to have modifiers for gender, you can just build characters that model those expectations, and the shrieking brigades will never know because they can't do math anyhow.

oof

I had a great time at Big Bad Con in October playing "Ma Nutkin" who was a troll mother of four. I was playing the Powered-by-the-Apocalypse game "Under Hollow Hills" as run by author Meg Baker.

https://lumpley.games/under-hollow-hills-about-the-game/

It was great fun. Ma Nutkin was a gravel-voiced ugly blocky old troll woman who was cynical as all hell, dealing with four troll kids and generally being the heavy-hitter of the party, but her weakness was having to watch after her tween-to-teen kids that I named as Grendel, Skarnar, Dunker, and Daisy. (She would say about Daisy "Watch out for that one" because Daisy took after her.)

It was mostly a social and magical problem-solving game, but I'd love to revisit the character in another game.

---

For non-PCs, my own D&D campaign recently finished up dealing with a number of hags as antagonists. A night-hag turns out to be a really annoying long-term enemy, able to turn both invisible and ethereal. But the PCs dispatched a bunch of green-hags and goblins, along with demons that the night-hag summoned.

I don't care for art in games of imagination, but when it comes to ugly, the standard is TV-ugly not ugly-ugly.

Quote from: David Johansen on January 18, 2024, 12:20:12 AM
Realistically they'll have lower Strength and Dexterity

A couple of Ozeki have entered the chat.

Quote from: SHARK on January 18, 2024, 12:02:34 AMAre fat, ugly women characters popular in your campaigns?

When I run D&D, the only character images are whatever the player draws. Therefore, all the characters are ugly, because the fucking players can't draw. If they could draw, they'd be doing a real art, not sitting around a table eating chips and pretending to be an elf.

Quote from: David Johansen on January 18, 2024, 12:20:12 AM
Well, they add some realism to the setting.  It's not like men are falling all over themselves to play fat men.  There is a tendancy to make fat villains, male and female.  I suppose the association of youth and beauty with goodness is a little questionable.  But let's face it, rpg characters are aspirational and I don't think many people aspire to be fat and ugly.  I do recall an interview with an immigrant, long long ago, who was asked why he wanted to move to America, his answer was, "because I want to live in a place where poor people are fat."

Honestly though, I think disecting and unpacking a lot of these things too much is unhealthy.  There's nothing wrong with having fat and ugly characters.  Realistically they'll have lower Strength and Dexterity and higher Size but again, these games aren't modelling reality as much as they are modelling expectations built on fiction and movies.  I've often noted that one of the advantages of a points system is that you don't have to have modifiers for gender, you can just build characters that model those expectations, and the shrieking brigades will never know because they can't do math anyhow.

Ironically, I do lean towards them and typically play the "big guy" characters (whether half ogres/firbolgs in D&D or trolls in Shadowrun) who frequently are overweight (as I have been to various degrees for most of my life) but I don't see it as aspirational or healthy though.  I do also admit that I'm the outlier and that I've never encountered another such player/character in parties so far.

In a medieval fantasy rpg, calories are expensive, so the likelihood of finding a fat woman is unlikely short of them being a merchant or royalty with access to funds.  A villain being fat would make sense as they are self serving and got access to funds through illicit means.  As to playing a fat female, people want to play idealized versions of themselves when they roleplay.  No one idealizes being moribund.  Its just screwed up leftards pushing their narrative attacks on beauty and purity.  Ignore them, don't buy their games where they have sway, bankrupt them is my suggestion.  See Disney as an example of people boycotting them for their behavior and politics.

I have never seen a single player, either male or female, play a female PC who was overweight or unattractive. Not even when the player himself or herself was those things. To be honest, I don't remember ever even creating a female NPC with those specific traits in mind, although if a particular plot had called for it I would have.

The plural of anecdote is not data, of course, but I suspect I am not an outlier.

As I've mentioned before, I've never used different strength maximum for male/female.  I have insisted at times that the abilities of the character coincide with their appearance, especially in point buy games where the player can make anything they want, exactly how they want.  In all that time, I've never seen a single female player or player of a female character, even want to play a muscle-bound (Xena-type) female character, let alone one that was just big.  Athletic, healthy, moderately strong, maybe a bit tougher than you'd expect, etc., yes to all that.  And for that matter, I have rarely seen anyone want to play the grossly muscle-bound champion weight-lifter type, even in male characters, either.  Every now and then someone will go for the Conan look.

Well hm, interesting. For reference I am a pretty medium-sized guy, lean all my life -- and I have definitely played big, dumb, ugly dudes.

I've had plenty of female characters as well, but come to think of it all were objectively reasonably attractive I suppose. None were my "type" in particular, and certainly not designed to be sexy in any way. Sex has never been a part of our games, so my female characters were made to be plain-ol' badass, just like the male characters.

(I did play one obese character -- so fat he couldn't walk. Because I rolled a 3 Con! So he was a magic-user, wheezing his way around on a slow floaty tensers disk-like thing the DM allowed. Made it to 2nd level.)

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 18, 2024, 10:18:45 AM
And for that matter, I have rarely seen anyone want to play the grossly muscle-bound champion weight-lifter type, even in male characters, either.  Every now and then someone will go for the Conan look.

Are you saying "the Conan look" is something different than the "grossly muscle-bound champion weight-lifter type"? That would be confusing, since for the masses who get their idea of the "Conan look" from the 1982 film, he is quite literally a muscle-bound champion weight lifter. (In fact, Arnold came out of retirement while training for the film, to casually bag his seventh Mr. Olympia title. Pretty much the epitome!)

Genshin Impact is a game played monthly by about 25 million women. (Which, for perspective, is about what the TOTAL active gamers is on Steam at any time). And all their female character look like this:



So the idea that woman want to play fat or ugly characters is simply propaganda.

Quote from: SHARK on January 18, 2024, 12:02:34 AMHave you observed any cross-pollination of this trend from video game art to TTRPG art, in making women characters fat and ugly?

The uglification of characters in TTRPGs is significantly worse than in video games. So much so that I would say that the trend is moving the other way, from TTRPG into video games.

Quote from: Zalman on January 18, 2024, 10:33:05 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 18, 2024, 10:18:45 AM
And for that matter, I have rarely seen anyone want to play the grossly muscle-bound champion weight-lifter type, even in male characters, either.  Every now and then someone will go for the Conan look.

Are you saying "the Conan look" is something different than the "grossly muscle-bound champion weight-lifter type"? That would be confusing, since for the masses who get their idea of the "Conan look" from the 1982 film, he is quite literally a muscle-bound champion weight lifter. (In fact, Arnold came out of retirement while training for the film, to casually bag his seventh Mr. Olympia title. Pretty much the epitome!)

Not exactly.  I've had a few go for that look, as the exceptions, which is why its occurrence in my games is rare instead of non-existent.  However, the vast majority of my players going after a Conan-type on the surface have deliberately tried to emphasize the overall athleticism, even limberness of the Conan-type character instead of weight-lifter parts.  More speedy linebacker or big defensive back than Arnold.  I realize that's not entirely inline with either the source material on Conan, or physics, or even the way Conan's speed is a big part of his muscle development, but nonetheless in the case of how the players view appearance, that's been my experience.  (Even so, it's somewhat inline with reality, given the trade-off between muscle mass and limberness--close enough for game purposes.)