TheRPGSite

Greetings!

This is an interesting video by Melonie Mac Go Boom. She discusses the trend in video games of making women characters fat and ugly. Interestingly, she also mentions Anita Sarkeesian. I have heard about some cross-pollination of these trends in art with TTRPG's. Thus, I thought the video would be relevant as a reference point.

Are fat, ugly women characters popular in your campaigns?

Have you observed any cross-pollination of this trend from video game art to TTRPG art, in making women characters fat and ugly?

Interesting stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well, they add some realism to the setting.  It's not like men are falling all over themselves to play fat men.  There is a tendancy to make fat villains, male and female.  I suppose the association of youth and beauty with goodness is a little questionable.  But let's face it, rpg characters are aspirational and I don't think many people aspire to be fat and ugly.  I do recall an interview with an immigrant, long long ago, who was asked why he wanted to move to America, his answer was, "because I want to live in a place where poor people are fat."

Honestly though, I think disecting and unpacking a lot of these things too much is unhealthy.  There's nothing wrong with having fat and ugly characters.  Realistically they'll have lower Strength and Dexterity and higher Size but again, these games aren't modelling reality as much as they are modelling expectations built on fiction and movies.  I've often noted that one of the advantages of a points system is that you don't have to have modifiers for gender, you can just build characters that model those expectations, and the shrieking brigades will never know because they can't do math anyhow.

oof

I had a great time at Big Bad Con in October playing "Ma Nutkin" who was a troll mother of four. I was playing the Powered-by-the-Apocalypse game "Under Hollow Hills" as run by author Meg Baker.

https://lumpley.games/under-hollow-hills-about-the-game/

It was great fun. Ma Nutkin was a gravel-voiced ugly blocky old troll woman who was cynical as all hell, dealing with four troll kids and generally being the heavy-hitter of the party, but her weakness was having to watch after her tween-to-teen kids that I named as Grendel, Skarnar, Dunker, and Daisy. (She would say about Daisy "Watch out for that one" because Daisy took after her.)

It was mostly a social and magical problem-solving game, but I'd love to revisit the character in another game.

---

For non-PCs, my own D&D campaign recently finished up dealing with a number of hags as antagonists. A night-hag turns out to be a really annoying long-term enemy, able to turn both invisible and ethereal. But the PCs dispatched a bunch of green-hags and goblins, along with demons that the night-hag summoned.

I don't care for art in games of imagination, but when it comes to ugly, the standard is TV-ugly not ugly-ugly.

Quote from: David Johansen on January 18, 2024, 12:20:12 AM
Realistically they'll have lower Strength and Dexterity

A couple of Ozeki (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHVon8ZVuIs) have entered the chat.

Quote from: SHARK on January 18, 2024, 12:02:34 AMAre fat, ugly women characters popular in your campaigns?

When I run D&D, the only character images are whatever the player draws. Therefore, all the characters are ugly, because the fucking players can't draw. If they could draw, they'd be doing a real art, not sitting around a table eating chips and pretending to be an elf.

Quote from: David Johansen on January 18, 2024, 12:20:12 AM
Well, they add some realism to the setting.  It's not like men are falling all over themselves to play fat men.  There is a tendancy to make fat villains, male and female.  I suppose the association of youth and beauty with goodness is a little questionable.  But let's face it, rpg characters are aspirational and I don't think many people aspire to be fat and ugly.  I do recall an interview with an immigrant, long long ago, who was asked why he wanted to move to America, his answer was, "because I want to live in a place where poor people are fat."

Honestly though, I think disecting and unpacking a lot of these things too much is unhealthy.  There's nothing wrong with having fat and ugly characters.  Realistically they'll have lower Strength and Dexterity and higher Size but again, these games aren't modelling reality as much as they are modelling expectations built on fiction and movies.  I've often noted that one of the advantages of a points system is that you don't have to have modifiers for gender, you can just build characters that model those expectations, and the shrieking brigades will never know because they can't do math anyhow.

Ironically, I do lean towards them and typically play the "big guy" characters (whether half ogres/firbolgs in D&D or trolls in Shadowrun) who frequently are overweight (as I have been to various degrees for most of my life) but I don't see it as aspirational or healthy though.  I do also admit that I'm the outlier and that I've never encountered another such player/character in parties so far.

In a medieval fantasy rpg, calories are expensive, so the likelihood of finding a fat woman is unlikely short of them being a merchant or royalty with access to funds.  A villain being fat would make sense as they are self serving and got access to funds through illicit means.  As to playing a fat female, people want to play idealized versions of themselves when they roleplay.  No one idealizes being moribund.  Its just screwed up leftards pushing their narrative attacks on beauty and purity.  Ignore them, don't buy their games where they have sway, bankrupt them is my suggestion.  See Disney as an example of people boycotting them for their behavior and politics.

I have never seen a single player, either male or female, play a female PC who was overweight or unattractive. Not even when the player himself or herself was those things. To be honest, I don't remember ever even creating a female NPC with those specific traits in mind, although if a particular plot had called for it I would have.

The plural of anecdote is not data, of course, but I suspect I am not an outlier.

As I've mentioned before, I've never used different strength maximum for male/female.  I have insisted at times that the abilities of the character coincide with their appearance, especially in point buy games where the player can make anything they want, exactly how they want.  In all that time, I've never seen a single female player or player of a female character, even want to play a muscle-bound (Xena-type) female character, let alone one that was just big.  Athletic, healthy, moderately strong, maybe a bit tougher than you'd expect, etc., yes to all that.  And for that matter, I have rarely seen anyone want to play the grossly muscle-bound champion weight-lifter type, even in male characters, either.  Every now and then someone will go for the Conan look.

Well hm, interesting. For reference I am a pretty medium-sized guy, lean all my life -- and I have definitely played big, dumb, ugly dudes.

I've had plenty of female characters as well, but come to think of it all were objectively reasonably attractive I suppose. None were my "type" in particular, and certainly not designed to be sexy in any way. Sex has never been a part of our games, so my female characters were made to be plain-ol' badass, just like the male characters.

(I did play one obese character -- so fat he couldn't walk. Because I rolled a 3 Con! So he was a magic-user, wheezing his way around on a slow floaty tensers disk-like thing the DM allowed. Made it to 2nd level.)

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 18, 2024, 10:18:45 AM
And for that matter, I have rarely seen anyone want to play the grossly muscle-bound champion weight-lifter type, even in male characters, either.  Every now and then someone will go for the Conan look.

Are you saying "the Conan look" is something different than the "grossly muscle-bound champion weight-lifter type"? That would be confusing, since for the masses who get their idea of the "Conan look" from the 1982 film, he is quite literally a muscle-bound champion weight lifter. (In fact, Arnold came out of retirement while training for the film, to casually bag his seventh Mr. Olympia title. Pretty much the epitome!)

Genshin Impact is a game played monthly by about 25 million women. (Which, for perspective, is about what the TOTAL active gamers is on Steam at any time). And all their female character look like this:

(https://img.gamewith.jp/article_tools/genshin/gacha/charasort_03.jpg)

So the idea that woman want to play fat or ugly characters is simply propaganda.

Quote from: SHARK on January 18, 2024, 12:02:34 AMHave you observed any cross-pollination of this trend from video game art to TTRPG art, in making women characters fat and ugly?

The uglification of characters in TTRPGs is significantly worse than in video games. So much so that I would say that the trend is moving the other way, from TTRPG into video games.

Quote from: Zalman on January 18, 2024, 10:33:05 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 18, 2024, 10:18:45 AM
And for that matter, I have rarely seen anyone want to play the grossly muscle-bound champion weight-lifter type, even in male characters, either.  Every now and then someone will go for the Conan look.

Are you saying "the Conan look" is something different than the "grossly muscle-bound champion weight-lifter type"? That would be confusing, since for the masses who get their idea of the "Conan look" from the 1982 film, he is quite literally a muscle-bound champion weight lifter. (In fact, Arnold came out of retirement while training for the film, to casually bag his seventh Mr. Olympia title. Pretty much the epitome!)

Not exactly.  I've had a few go for that look, as the exceptions, which is why its occurrence in my games is rare instead of non-existent.  However, the vast majority of my players going after a Conan-type on the surface have deliberately tried to emphasize the overall athleticism, even limberness of the Conan-type character instead of weight-lifter parts.  More speedy linebacker or big defensive back than Arnold.  I realize that's not entirely inline with either the source material on Conan, or physics, or even the way Conan's speed is a big part of his muscle development, but nonetheless in the case of how the players view appearance, that's been my experience.  (Even so, it's somewhat inline with reality, given the trade-off between muscle mass and limberness--close enough for game purposes.)

I'm pretty well convinced at this point that the drive towards uglier female (and to a lesser extent male) characters in western videogames. which is noticeable, is entirely about ESG compliance, and not in any way caused by agenda or attempting to appeal to a market. I very much doubt the success of franchise-building successes of "hot girl" games like the Witcher, Mass Effect, Baldur's Gate 3 or Overwatch goes unnoticed by the industry.

In my entire time roleplaying, I can only think of one time a player intentionally chose to make an overweight, unattractive female character. Even then, I'm not sure the unattractive part was intentional. This player was a very left wing woman, possibly left wing enough to buy into the idea that beauty standards are a social construct. I've GM-ed the same player a couple of other times, and she usually plays very attractive (albeit in a shy, nerdy kind of way) characters and is keen to have them be involved in in-game romances.

As others have said, I think most players, especially women, tend to play a character they'd like to be, and most women, including left leaning ones, want to be beautiful.

Quote from: Zalman on January 18, 2024, 10:33:05 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 18, 2024, 10:18:45 AM
And for that matter, I have rarely seen anyone want to play the grossly muscle-bound champion weight-lifter type, even in male characters, either.  Every now and then someone will go for the Conan look.

Are you saying "the Conan look" is something different than the "grossly muscle-bound champion weight-lifter type"? That would be confusing, since for the masses who get their idea of the "Conan look" from the 1982 film, he is quite literally a muscle-bound champion weight lifter. (In fact, Arnold came out of retirement while training for the film, to casually bag his seventh Mr. Olympia title. Pretty much the epitome!)

Supposedly Arnie actually had to drop some weight for the role, because he was too bulky to convincingly swing the sword around.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 18, 2024, 10:39:23 AM
Genshin Impact is a game played monthly by about 25 million women. (Which, for perspective, is about what the TOTAL active gamers is on Steam at any time). And all their female character look like this:

(https://img.gamewith.jp/article_tools/genshin/gacha/charasort_03.jpg)

So the idea that woman want to play fat or ugly characters is simply propaganda.

I wonder what the international demographics for that figure are. I.e., what percentage of those women are in the asian markets, where the culture is less woke on the subject of aesthetics than it is in America?

Activists love the idea of representation and body positivity in game art.  Actual women like looking at attractive women.  That's why women's magazines are full of pictures of attractive women.  Another game that has a strong female player base in Final Fantasy XIV.  The women in it look like this.
(https://i.imgur.com/GuBbTd5.jpg)

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 18, 2024, 10:40:49 AM
Not exactly.  I've had a few go for that look, as the exceptions, which is why its occurrence in my games is rare instead of non-existent.  However, the vast majority of my players going after a Conan-type on the surface have deliberately tried to emphasize the overall athleticism, even limberness of the Conan-type character instead of weight-lifter parts.  More speedy linebacker or big defensive back than Arnold.  I realize that's not entirely inline with either the source material on Conan, or physics, or even the way Conan's speed is a big part of his muscle development, but nonetheless in the case of how the players view appearance, that's been my experience.  (Even so, it's somewhat inline with reality, given the trade-off between muscle mass and limberness--close enough for game purposes.)

To be fair Conan himself isn't always entirely in line with physics, so that makes sense!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 18, 2024, 04:54:07 AM

Quote from: SHARK on January 18, 2024, 12:02:34 AMAre fat, ugly women characters popular in your campaigns?

When I run D&D, the only character images are whatever the player draws. Therefore, all the characters are ugly, because the fucking players can't draw. If they could draw, they'd be doing a real art, not sitting around a table eating chips and pretending to be an elf.

Because doing both would be an impossibility?

Quote from: SHARK on January 18, 2024, 12:02:34 AM
Are fat, ugly women characters popular in your campaigns?

No.

Quote from: SHARK on January 18, 2024, 12:02:34 AMHave you observed any cross-pollination of this trend from video game art to TTRPG art, in making women characters fat and ugly?

Some, but I've also noticed that it doesn't sell well.

The introduction of fat, ugly women in TTRPGs is an attempt at self-inserts by the writers or artists who imagine that their internet popularity translates into Real World physical beauty. It also affects comics and animation. The fucking horrible Scooby-Doo remake Velma has the titular character resemble the person behind the show, Mindy Kaling. The comic book I Am Not Starfire has a protagonist who is fat, ugly, childish, and bears a striking resemblance to the author.

Not just women, but men in games that I have run tend to want to play physically attractive characters in game. Why? Because it is a GAME, it is ENTERTAINMENT. Nothing wrong with some wish fulfillment while playing a game.

I see enough fat, ugly broads whenever I go to Walmart, why would I want to play one in a fantasy game?

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 18, 2024, 09:46:04 AM
I have never seen a single player, either male or female, play a female PC who was overweight or unattractive.

I'll admit it: the one time I played a female character was in 50 Fathoms, where I played some female squid thing.  "Oh, so she had boobs and a vagina right?"  Nope and nope; not that it ever came up, but I figured she would reproduce like a squid does (squirts eggs out on the floor, male squirts on the eggs, no lactation so no breasts, and all of it about as arousing as watching a spastic make a PB&J sandwich*).  Which isn't anything like mammals do, but still much less horrific than octopus reproduction.

(*"Hey!  Spastic squid reproduction on bread is -my- fetish!"  No it isn't, hypothetical internet person, no it isn't.)

Quote from: Zalman on January 18, 2024, 10:33:05 AM
Are you saying "the Conan look" is something different than the "grossly muscle-bound champion weight-lifter type"? That would be confusing, since for the masses who get their idea of the "Conan look" from the 1982 film, he is quite literally a muscle-bound champion weight lifter. (In fact, Arnold came out of retirement while training for the film, to casually bag his seventh Mr. Olympia title. Pretty much the epitome!)

Body-building like Mr. Olympia is different than weight-lifting. Here, for example, is world-record weightlifter Lasha Talakhadze:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Lasha_Talakhadze_Rio_2016.jpg/800px-Lasha_Talakhadze_Rio_2016.jpg)

Athletes have different builds and looks depending on the sport.

Going back to the OP -

Quote from: SHARK on January 18, 2024, 12:02:34 AM
Are fat, ugly women characters popular in your campaigns?

Have you observed any cross-pollination of this trend from video game art to TTRPG art, in making women characters fat and ugly?

I answered before about some of the cool ugly women in my games, like the troll mother "Ma Nutkin". But as for the question from the thread title -- certainly they aren't popular. Currently, what's popular in general is fantasy art for 5E - specifically anime-inspired character art of thin, good-looking men and women. I find it blah.

I haven't notice any trend of fat and ugly women in TTRPG art that I've seen - it mostly seems to go with the anime-inspired trend.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on January 18, 2024, 03:34:25 PMI'll admit it: the one time I played a female character was in 50 Fathoms, where I played some female squid thing.

Hysterically, there was a Star Trek novel written back in the day -- I can't remember its title but it was definitely published pre-Next Generation -- in which the author was clearly taking the mickey on Captain Kirk's tendency to mack on alien babes; it created a minor alien character whose exotic beauty captivated the Captain, only for him to discover (fortunately through simple discussion rather than anything more humiliatingly graphic) that her species was descended from a piscean, seagoing lifeform that had evolved to amphibious sapience, and who reproduced exactly the way you describe. The female alien in question found mammalian reproduction as horrifying and laughable to her kind as Kirk found hers.  ("All that clutching...!" is the one line of dialogue I still remember.)

What interests me about the issue is that it is, in a way, two solutions to the same desire: we can fantasize about being an imaginary person who's better than we are in critical ways, or we fantasize about living in an imaginary world in which the way we are is the optimum way to be for success, gratification, excitement and prosperity. (And RPGing quite frequently encompasses both.)

Quote from: jhkim on January 18, 2024, 03:54:38 PM
I haven't notice any trend of fat and ugly women in TTRPG art that I've seen - it mostly seems to go with the anime-inspired trend.

So fat characters, particularly ladies, are something I've only seen in the art for fringe products, like Thirsty Sword Lesbians:
(https://i.postimg.cc/B62Ntw5V/Thirsty-Sword-Lesbians-Review.png)

In mainstream products, I would say the trend is more towards "plain" looking women, such as this druid from the 5e PHB:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLn5DTn5/5e1.jpg)

Or these ladies from Pathfinder 2:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vH51kwYj/PF21.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Hksp2qVb/PF22.jpg)

In fairness, it's hard to say if this is down to intentional ugliness, or just an unflattering art style. Neither is it necessarily new. These ladies from the 3.5 PHB probably aren't setting any hearts aflutter either:

(https://i.postimg.cc/KzvvY4Mk/351.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pf7rtXrJ/352.jpg)

Flipping through the PHBs for the various of editions, the only one I found where they were clearly trying to show beautiful female PCs was the Rules Cyclopedia:

(https://i.postimg.cc/hvNdxVL3/BECMI1.jpg)

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 04:32:00 PMFlipping through the PHBs for the various of editions, the only one I found where they were clearly trying to show beautiful female PCs was the Rules Cyclopedia:

(https://i.postimg.cc/hvNdxVL3/BECMI1.jpg)

A friend of mine grabbed the image of the legendary Morgan Ironwolf (this is from the Tom Moldvay Basic book) for a female paladin character he created in the '80s, which is why I've always remembered it:

(https://dragonsneverforget.files.wordpress.com/2022/03/morgan-illustration.jpg)

And then, of course, there is Warhammer where a character who isn't twisted, ugly, pox ridden, and stinky will probably get burned as a witch.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 04:32:00 PM
Flipping through the PHBs for the various of editions, the only one I found where they were clearly trying to show beautiful female PCs was the Rules Cyclopedia:

I suggest you try the Player's Manual for Basic Mentzer D&D. I count 8 attractive women, and no unattractive ones. Though I am amused to think of the picture of the hero with Aleena over his shoulder getting the Thirsty Sword Lesbians treatment. Now that's when you need a hero with an Arnie-esque physique.

Quote from: Krazz on January 18, 2024, 05:23:06 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 04:32:00 PM
Flipping through the PHBs for the various of editions, the only one I found where they were clearly trying to show beautiful female PCs was the Rules Cyclopedia:

I suggest you try the Player's Manual for Basic Mentzer D&D. I count 8 attractive female PCs, and no unattractive ones. Though I am amused to think of the picture of the hero with Aleena over his shoulder getting the Thirsty Sword Lesbians treatment. Now that's when you need a hero with an Arnie-esque physique.

How many of those illustrations are Aleena, though? In all seriousness, that does seem to have been a trend with the Basic Rulebooks. Curious that the same is not true of AD&D. I flipped through the 1st and 2nd edition PHBs, and there were almost no women in them at all.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 05:28:27 PM

Quote from: Krazz on January 18, 2024, 05:23:06 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 04:32:00 PM
Flipping through the PHBs for the various of editions, the only one I found where they were clearly trying to show beautiful female PCs was the Rules Cyclopedia:

I suggest you try the Player's Manual for Basic Mentzer D&D. I count 8 attractive female PCs, and no unattractive ones. Though I am amused to think of the picture of the hero with Aleena over his shoulder getting the Thirsty Sword Lesbians treatment. Now that's when you need a hero with an Arnie-esque physique.

How many of those illustrations are Aleena, though? In all seriousness, that does seem to have been a trend with the Basic Rulebooks. Curious that the same is not true of AD&D. I flipped through the 1st and 2nd edition PHBs, and there were almost no women in them at all.

You can never have too many pictures of Aleena.

OK, so I got curious, and went and scrolled through the Player's books or Corebooks for a bunch of the more "mainstream" recent games I have PDFs of on my computer. I'll spare you all a slideshow, but the trend of muddy artwork with plain-looking women is noticeable in the most recent editions of 13th Age, 7th Sea, Call of Cthulhu, most of the Modiphius 2d20 games, Symbaroum, Shadow of the Demon Lord, Iron Kingdoms and Runequest.

The two exceptions I came across, where there were PC illustrations that had something of the flair of those 80s glamour girls in the BECMI books, were:

The Dark Eye:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCvq41q0/DarkEye1.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/ZRDggkWg/DarkEye2.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/bw3Kb2zp/DarkEye3.jpg)

and Forbidden Lands:
(https://i.postimg.cc/85WKyFVF/FL1.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/656cZbT4/FL2.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/6qMdzwT2/FL3.jpg)

Probably not a coincidence that both games are European.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 18, 2024, 10:39:23 AM
Genshin Impact is a game played monthly by about 25 million women. (Which, for perspective, is about what the TOTAL active gamers is on Steam at any time). And all their female character look like this:

(https://img.gamewith.jp/article_tools/genshin/gacha/charasort_03.jpg)

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 05:39:35 PM
The two exceptions I came across, where there were PC illustrations that had something of the flair of those 80s glamour girls in the BECMI books

The Dark Eye:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCvq41q0/DarkEye1.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/ZRDggkWg/DarkEye2.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/bw3Kb2zp/DarkEye3.jpg)

Bleah. I don't have a problem with pretty women characters, but I don't care for medieval adventurers looking like 80s glamour girls - and I hate the anime trend. All due respect to the artistic skill of Boris Vallejo, but I don't picture my adventurers - male or female - looking like they're a model just out of hair and makeup posing for their glamour shot -- or an anime romance character just before a kissing scene.

If those are my options, I prefer the "plain" trend.

 8) Whereas I am the exact opposite, jhkim! More cheesecake! More beefcake! More! More! More!  ;D

Though a little diversity is nice to baseline how cakey my cake is. Without a one you cannot gauge a ten.  ;)

Quote from: David Johansen on January 18, 2024, 05:08:34 PM
And then, of course, there is Warhammer where a character who isn't twisted, ugly, pox ridden, and stinky will probably get burned as a witch.

To be fair, in the Old World a character who is twisted, ugly, pox-ridden and stinky is also fairly likely to get burned as a witch.

Quote from: jhkim on January 18, 2024, 05:55:16 PMI don't care for medieval adventurers looking like 80s glamour girls ... I don't picture my adventurers - male or female - looking like they're a model just out of hair and makeup posing for their glamour shot.... If those are my options, I prefer the "plain" trend.

A point worth noting. "Ugliness" can be a product of context, preparation and situation as much as inherent lack of comeliness.

How much of the trend towards "plain" in RPG art is about creating verisimilitude about the typical events and experiences of adventure, rather than attempting to be "representative" of particular groups in the audience?

Quote from: jhkim on January 18, 2024, 05:55:16 PM
Bleah. I don't have a problem with pretty women characters, but I don't care for medieval adventurers looking like 80s glamour girls - and I hate the anime trend. All due respect to the artistic skill of Boris Vallejo, but I don't picture my adventurers - male or female - looking like they're a model just out of hair and makeup posing for their glamour shot -- or an anime romance character just before a kissing scene.

If those are my options, I prefer the "plain" trend.

I actually share your dislike of Boris Vallejo. His art is almost too photoreal, which combined with his tendency to pick bodybuilders as figure modes, tends to make his paintings look like modern people in costumes, rather than people in a fantasy universe. At the same time, I do think art should be aesthetically appealing, and fantasy heroes ought to be at least a little bit larger than life.

I would cite some of Larry Elmore's black-and-whites as a happy medium between the two extremes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zGtHBdZF/BECMI2.jpg)

That's an aesthetically pleasing picture of a pretty lady. Not very realistic, but I still completely buy that she's an adventurous character in a fantasy world.

I also really like this piece (which I think is from a 7th Sea book):
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJXRWYKg/Ocularagirl.jpg)

Not exactly a pinup model, but she's bursting with personality, and again I believe her as a character in her environment (despite the fact she's holding her sword wrong).

The sorceress in 1st edition pathfinder, got it just right. 

Just downloaded the free Valiant Adventures rpg quickstart. Suggest you pop along to their website to snag yourselves a copy. For the most part, the art is fine. But, there is a prime example of what this thread is about on page 10. And the sample PCs they have provided are something else. I certainly wouldn't want to play any character that looked like those bunch of teen misfits. They don't look anything like superheroes. What are GR playing at?

Quote from: Jam The MF on January 19, 2024, 01:38:37 PM
The sorceress in 1st edition pathfinder, got it just right.

And that's why Paizo quickly changed her design, same with the Barbarian.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 08:20:14 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 18, 2024, 05:55:16 PM
Bleah. I don't have a problem with pretty women characters, but I don't care for medieval adventurers looking like 80s glamour girls - and I hate the anime trend. All due respect to the artistic skill of Boris Vallejo, but I don't picture my adventurers - male or female - looking like they're a model just out of hair and makeup posing for their glamour shot -- or an anime romance character just before a kissing scene.

If those are my options, I prefer the "plain" trend.

I actually share your dislike of Boris Vallejo. His art is almost too photoreal, which combined with his tendency to pick bodybuilders as figure modes, tends to make his paintings look like modern people in costumes, rather than people in a fantasy universe. At the same time, I do think art should be aesthetically appealing, and fantasy heroes ought to be at least a little bit larger than life.

I would cite some of Larry Elmore's black-and-whites as a happy medium between the two extremes

I like your two pictures, but I don't think all art needs to be just like those. I agree art should be aesthetically appealing, but that doesn't mean that PCs should all look the same. Gandalf doesn't have to look like a hot anime silver fox -- he can be a wise old bearded man.

There can be all of fierce-looking heavily muscled PCs, and lithe hot-looking PCs, and grizzled pirate PCs, and so forth.

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2024, 02:17:02 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 08:20:14 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 18, 2024, 05:55:16 PM
Bleah. I don't have a problem with pretty women characters, but I don't care for medieval adventurers looking like 80s glamour girls - and I hate the anime trend. All due respect to the artistic skill of Boris Vallejo, but I don't picture my adventurers - male or female - looking like they're a model just out of hair and makeup posing for their glamour shot -- or an anime romance character just before a kissing scene.

If those are my options, I prefer the "plain" trend.

I actually share your dislike of Boris Vallejo. His art is almost too photoreal, which combined with his tendency to pick bodybuilders as figure modes, tends to make his paintings look like modern people in costumes, rather than people in a fantasy universe. At the same time, I do think art should be aesthetically appealing, and fantasy heroes ought to be at least a little bit larger than life.

I would cite some of Larry Elmore's black-and-whites as a happy medium between the two extremes

I like your two pictures, but I don't think all art needs to be just like those. I agree art should be aesthetically appealing, but that doesn't mean that PCs should all look the same. Gandalf doesn't have to look like a hot anime silver fox -- he can be a wise old bearded man.

There can be all of fierce-looking heavily muscled PCs, and lithe hot-looking PCs, and grizzled pirate PCs, and so forth.

Gandalf the Shredded Bro

https://images.nightcafe.studio/jobs/lpwinwPYopnpGrYD6PY6/lpwinwPYopnpGrYD6PY6--1--gw7bl.jpg?tr=w-1600,c-at_max (https://images.nightcafe.studio/jobs/lpwinwPYopnpGrYD6PY6/lpwinwPYopnpGrYD6PY6--1--gw7bl.jpg?tr=w-1600,c-at_max)

Quote from: Simon W on January 19, 2024, 02:00:38 PM
Just downloaded the free Valiant Adventures rpg quickstart. Suggest you pop along to their website to snag yourselves a copy. For the most part, the art is fine. But, there is a prime example of what this thread is about on page 10. And the sample PCs they have provided are something else. I certainly wouldn't want to play any character that looked like those bunch of teen misfits. They don't look anything like superheroes. What are GR playing at?

That's Zephyr.

I am not going to claim to be a huge Valiant Comics fan. I googled her and this is what I found:

https://valiant.fandom.com/wiki/Faith_Herbert_(Valiant_Entertainment)#Powers_and_Abilities


It seems her debut was in 1992 and from what I could find, she was always at least Hollywood pudgy if not outright obese.

Of course, her new reboot design leans more heavily on that, but it seems she was always meant to be that way.


(https://i.postimg.cc/90D3bzMF/Screenshot-2024-01-19-135636.png)


(https://i.postimg.cc/zDyX0G4g/Screenshot-2024-01-19-135429.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/G3G6L0yf/Screenshot-3.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/L5WJQq3y/Screenshot-6.png)


Still, she stood out because she was rare. I don't think anyone is actually clamoring for characters like these. As others have said on this thread, most people would rather see good looking characters in media. This is the reason why most actors are attractive.

In Hollywood there's like 1 Danny DeVito for every 100 Brad Pitts.

Even IRL actors on superhero movies have to train like crazy and roid out of their gills to achieve the "superhero" physique, so its not like women are the only ones represented as a very hard to achieve beauty standard.

Where I disagree is that saying this is "unrealistic". You can go back as far as you want, even before readily available plastic surgery or steroids, and you will still find good looking men and women as actors. They had symmetrical and pretty faces and a lean physique, with the men having some muscle on them.

But even on that last picture of 90s comic book cheese and beefcake, the women on the right don't have impossible body structure and the men also don't have an impossible amount of muscle. It's just improbable.

A fat adventurer doesn't really make sense. By virtue of having to eat on the move and walk a lot, there's no way an adventurer is going to be obese. Maybe a little pudgy at best. A fat character in a medieval fantasy would have to be a rich merchant or noble that doesn't do anything but eat and scheme or something along those lines.

In this sense, I don't mind Zephyr's design, she is supposed be in a modern environment with McDonald's or its analogue and since she can fly she doesn't need to move all that much.

For me, design has to make sense, so plain or average looking adventurers would be more than acceptable. But, if I have to choose between fat and/or ugly or lean and/or good looking, I'll rather take the latter any day of the week.

Quote from: jhkim on January 19, 2024, 02:17:02 PM
I like your two pictures, but I don't think all art needs to be just like those. I agree art should be aesthetically appealing, but that doesn't mean that PCs should all look the same. Gandalf doesn't have to look like a hot anime silver fox -- he can be a wise old bearded man.

There can be all of fierce-looking heavily muscled PCs, and lithe hot-looking PCs, and grizzled pirate PCs, and so forth.

I don't think anyone was arguing any different. Though now that you've suggested it, the idea of recasting Lord of The Rings with Galdalf-Chan and a fellowship of anime bimbos is a funny one.

I was going to do a good-art-bad-art comparison for bearded wizard types, but honestly wizards get treated pretty well in PHB art relative to other classes. Instead, I'll just post this illustration of Gandalf, because it's awesome.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Fzsvqcbj/53-Gabdalf.jpg)

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 08:20:14 PM
I would cite some of Larry Elmore's black-and-whites as a happy medium between the two extremes:

Nice!

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 18, 2024, 08:20:14 PM
I also really like this piece (which I think is from a 7th Sea book):

Nice x 10!

you will dump charisma as low as 5 to get 18/00 strength and you will be happy.

Greetings!

Melonie Mac Go Boom! is also just funny. She has made several more videos commenting and showcasing all of this as well.

As for art, well, yeah, I always like yummy looking women. The men need to look like beasts as well. That should be the norm, and the constant standard.

Having said that, on occasion, a very different character is fine, and appropriate. Based on subject matter, etc.

Righteous, bearded Gandalf is awesome, by the way!

Art of villains, or say of normal people, or what have you, yeah. Be appropriate. Some can be older, some can be fat, some can be ugly. Whatever. That is fine.

But, as usual, we have Woke morons worming their way into these industries, and destroying them.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The interesting thing is people complaining about "unrealistic beauty standards" would say Melanie is "unrealistic".   She is an average looking girl who is fit (which in this day and age being fit adds about 2-3 clicks to the 10 point scale for women) and I am certain there is some purple haired problem glasses person who thinks she is setting unrealistic standards. 

    I think the turning away from an idealized version of a character is a form of narcissism in some cases.   A person who thinks they have no room for improvement to the point that some daring adventurer who pulls of the impossible should look just like them (fat roll included) is peak level delusion.  I do not get it. 

   To be fair I also do not know how much it actually happens at a table top.  I am pretty convinced it does not happen regarding "female video gamers" either.   I think all the complaints and "lack of representation" comes from people writing articles (or commercials) who do not play games, have never played games and are simply camels pushing a nose into the tent. 

I can't speak for everyone's imaginations, but on the whole I'd say no. I mean I don't think everyone looks like Conan or Chun Li, but more often than not I think people imagine characters as beautiful or handsome.

I can't think of a single time, outside of my first D&D character when I was 10, that I ever designed a character after myself. Even in video games I don't do that, so whenever that commercial came out about "seeing myself in the characters" it was the fattest load of B.S. I ever saw. It was written by and for people who don't play video games. When I play Commander Shepard in Mass Effect, I don't need him to look like a mildly overweight suburban dad because "that's realistic body standards". No, I want him to look like a strapping, muscular man because he's the hero and he should look the part.

"Unrealistic beauty standards" is feminist internet code for "normal human being"...every single time I head that phrase it's ALWAYS from some fat, purple haired pseudo-lesbian. Normal women I interact with on a daily basis would think it's absurd.

There's been a couple of hot mic moments where the mask has slipped.  They make these unattractive characters as a shit test.  They know no one likes them and they think it's funny to shit up the hobby by making you swallow it or get called a bigot.

In the history of the female players I've had at my table over 20+ years, they tend to make characters in one of two types.

Type 1)
Ultra Hot Femme Fatale.
Lots of girls want to play the sexy femme fatale who is hot just because it's a fun power fantasy for them just as much as it can be for a guy. Bonus points for the GM who can take their appearance and attractiveness into account with NPC reactions while not being creepy about it.

Type 2)
Plain Jane Adventurer.
They don't make the character fat and ugly, but they don't make anything notable or special about their appearance. They might be TV Hot if everyone at the table is playing TV hot, but you won't see them putting points into social stats or trying to leverage any feminine wiles. These players in particular want to play a female character like themselves, but don't want any weird baggage associated with in character come on lines or anything akin to that. They're just there for the adventure.

I'm aware there are female gamers who deliberately play ugly female characters but this has become more of a modern convention and is specifically among those players who believe they're 'striking a blow against the patriarchy' by doing so.

Quote from: SHARK on January 19, 2024, 06:53:20 PM
As for art, well, yeah, I always like yummy looking women. The men need to look like beasts as well. That should be the norm, and the constant standard.

Having said that, on occasion, a very different character is fine, and appropriate. Based on subject matter, etc.

I liked it when the standard for characters looked like this:

(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/1e_chars.png)

These characters don't look like beasts. They look plain, which is fine. I'm not opposed to characters looking like Fabio or Hemsworth, but I don't think it needs to be the majority of all characters.

Quote from: Orphan81 on January 20, 2024, 01:26:43 AM
In the history of the female players I've had at my table over 20+ years, they tend to make characters in one of two types.

Type 1)
Ultra Hot Femme Fatale.
Lots of girls want to play the sexy femme fatale who is hot just because it's a fun power fantasy for them just as much as it can be for a guy. Bonus points for the GM who can take their appearance and attractiveness into account with NPC reactions while not being creepy about it.

Type 2)
Plain Jane Adventurer.
They don't make the character fat and ugly, but they don't make anything notable or special about their appearance. They might be TV Hot if everyone at the table is playing TV hot, but you won't see them putting points into social stats or trying to leverage any feminine wiles. These players in particular want to play a female character like themselves, but don't want any weird baggage associated with in character come on lines or anything akin to that. They're just there for the adventure.

I'm aware there are female gamers who deliberately play ugly female characters but this has become more of a modern convention and is specifically among those players who believe they're 'striking a blow against the patriarchy' by doing so.

Perhaps in game; Plain Jane is a really good cook, and she's just waiting to find a man worthy of spoiling with her talents?  Perhaps she'll be really good wife material, once the dragon is slain and peace returns to the realm?

With regard to video games, it will be hilarious when the wokesters find out about Palworld:

Quote from: SHARK on January 18, 2024, 12:02:34 AM
Are fat, ugly women characters popular in your campaigns?
...Interesting stuff!

Only if they're also smelly.

PS: in my RPG plain girls are called "Betties".

In my experience, female players use images of attractive women for their characters even if that doesn't match their stats.  Their characters are always good looking even if they dump charisma.   

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 20, 2024, 06:38:47 PM
In my experience, female players use images of attractive women for their characters even if that doesn't match their stats.  Their characters are always good looking even if they dump charisma.   

A woman doesn't have to be unattractive, to have low Charisma.  Just add a scornful bitchy scowl, to the face of any woman.  Instantly, Low Charisma.

Quote from: jhkim on January 20, 2024, 02:05:40 AM
I liked it when the standard for characters looked like this:

(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/1e_chars.png)

These characters don't look like beasts. They look plain, which is fine. I'm not opposed to characters looking like Fabio or Hemsworth, but I don't think it needs to be the majority of all characters.

Maybe my fictional societies are malnourished.  Fat only happens when you're living high off the hog and not burning those calories.  So, a little meat on their bones is fine and even desirable.  Gluttony on the other hand is seen as what it is whether you are low or high class. Scars and pock marks are rare when healing magic exists.  On the other hand, body builders and super models are the greyhounds of society, they are high maintenance forms that are rare (and perhaps even supernatural.)

Greetings!

In my world of Thandor, there is a Dark Mutation that transforms the host humanoid into a gigantic, no-neck, undulating behemoth woman. ;D

There are also cults composed entirely of such Behemoth-women members. Some of these Behemoth cults also create and organize civic action groups, where groups of Behemoth women gather together in urban streets to promote protests and riots, as they shriek at, and lecture nearby citizens.

There are also dark cults of Behemoth-women that operate depraved sex rings and clubs, where they dominate and play with hordes of weak male simps. Many of these terrible examples of males also actually *pay* the Behemoth-women to dominate them and engage with them in sexual parties.

Such fun opportunities! I use them periodically as villains, and as encounters that remind the players of how gross, depraved, and disgusting civilized society can be.

Such encounters with Behemoth women always inspire outbursts of humour in my groups. The women are especially savage!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2024, 08:54:37 PM
Greetings!

In my world of Thandor, there is a Dark Mutation that transforms the host humanoid into a gigantic, no-neck, undulating behemoth woman. ;D

There are also cults composed entirely of such Behemoth-women members. Some of these Behemoth cults also create and organize civic action groups, where groups of Behemoth women gather together in urban streets to promote protests and riots, as they shriek at, and lecture nearby citizens.

There are also dark cults of Behemoth-women that operate depraved sex rings and clubs, where they dominate and play with hordes of weak male simps. Many of these terrible examples of males also actually *pay* the Behemoth-women to dominate them and engage with them in sexual parties.

Such fun opportunities! I use them periodically as villains, and as encounters that remind the players of how gross, depraved, and disgusting civilized society can be.

Such encounters with Behemoth women always inspire outbursts of humour in my groups. The women are especially savage!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

What is the root cause of this mutation?

Can any female character be stroke with it? Or is this something like the "flaking rot" that comes from a ghoul or such foul undead creature?

Quote from: Cipher on January 20, 2024, 11:45:55 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2024, 08:54:37 PM
Greetings!

In my world of Thandor, there is a Dark Mutation that transforms the host humanoid into a gigantic, no-neck, undulating behemoth woman. ;D

There are also cults composed entirely of such Behemoth-women members. Some of these Behemoth cults also create and organize civic action groups, where groups of Behemoth women gather together in urban streets to promote protests and riots, as they shriek at, and lecture nearby citizens.

There are also dark cults of Behemoth-women that operate depraved sex rings and clubs, where they dominate and play with hordes of weak male simps. Many of these terrible examples of males also actually *pay* the Behemoth-women to dominate them and engage with them in sexual parties.

Such fun opportunities! I use them periodically as villains, and as encounters that remind the players of how gross, depraved, and disgusting civilized society can be.

Such encounters with Behemoth women always inspire outbursts of humour in my groups. The women are especially savage!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

What is the root cause of this mutation?

Can any female character be stroke with it? Or is this something like the "flaking rot" that comes from a ghoul or such foul undead creature?

A degree from a liberal arts college.

Quote from: Cipher on January 20, 2024, 11:45:55 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2024, 08:54:37 PM
Greetings!

In my world of Thandor, there is a Dark Mutation that transforms the host humanoid into a gigantic, no-neck, undulating behemoth woman. ;D

There are also cults composed entirely of such Behemoth-women members. Some of these Behemoth cults also create and organize civic action groups, where groups of Behemoth women gather together in urban streets to promote protests and riots, as they shriek at, and lecture nearby citizens.

There are also dark cults of Behemoth-women that operate depraved sex rings and clubs, where they dominate and play with hordes of weak male simps. Many of these terrible examples of males also actually *pay* the Behemoth-women to dominate them and engage with them in sexual parties.

Such fun opportunities! I use them periodically as villains, and as encounters that remind the players of how gross, depraved, and disgusting civilized society can be.

Such encounters with Behemoth women always inspire outbursts of humour in my groups. The women are especially savage!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

What is the root cause of this mutation?

Can any female character be stroke with it? Or is this something like the "flaking rot" that comes from a ghoul or such foul undead creature?

Greetings!

Well, the root-cause of the Dark Mutation comes from Chaos Energy, or Chaos Taint, which comes from the dark, monstrous realms of Nav, and the Dark Gods. Anytime a person rejects righteousness and the natural order, thereby embracing depravity, they can then be afflicted by such Dark Mutations. Dark Mutations can burst forth from within, based upon the individual's depravity and rebellion. Other avenues, as one might imagine, are embracing the worship of Dark and evil gods. Yet another is being exposed to various kinds of Chaos Diseases. Likewise, using various Dark spells, evil magic items, and participating in dark, evil rituals.

So, there are many avenues from which a person may gain such Dark Mutations.

Female humanoids, of course, they are otherwise mortal and can be afflicted with Dark Mutations, in the same manner that any male humanoid can be.

There is also an Undead Variant of the Behemoth Queen mutation. Thus, there are huge, towering Zombie and Ghoul women, ponderously moving along, layers of fetid blubber hanging from them. Clouds of stench hovering around them at all times. Such women also attract clouds of flies that hover and crawl about them, feasting on the sweat, the postules of body fluid and lesions seeping malevolent pus.

With diseases, of course, such creatures are frequently riddled with pestilence. Being touched by their fetid juices can of course be contagious in spreading their diseases. There are depraved cults full of men and women alike, but mostly men--that seek out such Behemoth Ghoul Queens, and make them a twisted focus of worship, sensuality, and servitude. Such pathetic creatures eagerly lay with the Behemoth Ghouls, wallowing in their streams of filth, intentionally hoping to become infected by their diseases, so that they can enter the glories of the new age to come. ;D

The "Ick" factor and shrieking humour practically writes itself whenever my parties encounter these kinds of monstrous women. The players, themselves, will provide you with an endless barrage of humour and dark commentary! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 21, 2024, 12:14:45 AM

Quote from: Cipher on January 20, 2024, 11:45:55 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2024, 08:54:37 PM
Greetings!

In my world of Thandor, there is a Dark Mutation that transforms the host humanoid into a gigantic, no-neck, undulating behemoth woman. ;D

There are also cults composed entirely of such Behemoth-women members. Some of these Behemoth cults also create and organize civic action groups, where groups of Behemoth women gather together in urban streets to promote protests and riots, as they shriek at, and lecture nearby citizens.

There are also dark cults of Behemoth-women that operate depraved sex rings and clubs, where they dominate and play with hordes of weak male simps. Many of these terrible examples of males also actually *pay* the Behemoth-women to dominate them and engage with them in sexual parties.

Such fun opportunities! I use them periodically as villains, and as encounters that remind the players of how gross, depraved, and disgusting civilized society can be.

Such encounters with Behemoth women always inspire outbursts of humour in my groups. The women are especially savage!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

What is the root cause of this mutation?

Can any female character be stroke with it? Or is this something like the "flaking rot" that comes from a ghoul or such foul undead creature?

A degree from a liberal arts college.

Greetings!

*HOWLING LAUGHTER*!!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 21, 2024, 12:21:39 AM

Quote from: Cipher on January 20, 2024, 11:45:55 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2024, 08:54:37 PM
Greetings!

In my world of Thandor, there is a Dark Mutation that transforms the host humanoid into a gigantic, no-neck, undulating behemoth woman. ;D

There are also cults composed entirely of such Behemoth-women members. Some of these Behemoth cults also create and organize civic action groups, where groups of Behemoth women gather together in urban streets to promote protests and riots, as they shriek at, and lecture nearby citizens.

There are also dark cults of Behemoth-women that operate depraved sex rings and clubs, where they dominate and play with hordes of weak male simps. Many of these terrible examples of males also actually *pay* the Behemoth-women to dominate them and engage with them in sexual parties.

Such fun opportunities! I use them periodically as villains, and as encounters that remind the players of how gross, depraved, and disgusting civilized society can be.

Such encounters with Behemoth women always inspire outbursts of humour in my groups. The women are especially savage!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

What is the root cause of this mutation?

Can any female character be stroke with it? Or is this something like the "flaking rot" that comes from a ghoul or such foul undead creature?

Greetings!

Well, the root-cause of the Dark Mutation comes from Chaos Energy, or Chaos Taint, which comes from the dark, monstrous realms of Nav, and the Dark Gods. Anytime a person rejects righteousness and the natural order, thereby embracing depravity, they can then be afflicted by such Dark Mutations. Dark Mutations can burst forth from within, based upon the individual's depravity and rebellion. Other avenues, as one might imagine, are embracing the worship of Dark and evil gods. Yet another is being exposed to various kinds of Chaos Diseases. Likewise, using various Dark spells, evil magic items, and participating in dark, evil rituals.

So, there are many avenues from which a person may gain such Dark Mutations.

Female humanoids, of course, they are otherwise mortal and can be afflicted with Dark Mutations, in the same manner that any male humanoid can be.

There is also an Undead Variant of the Behemoth Queen mutation. Thus, there are huge, towering Zombie and Ghoul women, ponderously moving along, layers of fetid blubber hanging from them. Clouds of stench hovering around them at all times. Such women also attract clouds of flies that hover and crawl about them, feasting on the sweat, the postules of body fluid and lesions seeping malevolent pus.

With diseases, of course, such creatures are frequently riddled with pestilence. Being touched by their fetid juices can of course be contagious in spreading their diseases. There are depraved cults full of men and women alike, but mostly men--that seek out such Behemoth Ghoul Queens, and make them a twisted focus of worship, sensuality, and servitude. Such pathetic creatures eagerly lay with the Behemoth Ghouls, wallowing in their streams of filth, intentionally hoping to become infected by their diseases, so that they can enter the glories of the new age to come. ;D

The "Ick" factor and shrieking humour practically writes itself whenever my parties encounter these kinds of monstrous women. The players, themselves, will provide you with an endless barrage of humour and dark commentary! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I see. Very interesting. Did you draw inspiration from Warhammer fantasy Chaos corruption for this? Not saying it in a negative manner, there's nothing new under the sun.

Also, I assume this can have mechanical representation in gameplay. Say, a player character can be afflicted by these?

Quote from: Jam The MF on January 20, 2024, 06:52:48 PM

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 20, 2024, 06:38:47 PM
In my experience, female players use images of attractive women for their characters even if that doesn't match their stats.  Their characters are always good looking even if they dump charisma.   

A woman doesn't have to be unattractive, to have low Charisma.  Just add a scornful bitchy scowl, to the face of any woman.  Instantly, Low Charisma.

They aren't that either.

Quote from: zircher on January 20, 2024, 08:33:50 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 20, 2024, 02:05:40 AM
I liked it when the standard for characters looked like this:

(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/1e_chars.png)

These characters don't look like beasts. They look plain, which is fine. I'm not opposed to characters looking like Fabio or Hemsworth, but I don't think it needs to be the majority of all characters.

Maybe my fictional societies are malnourished.  Fat only happens when you're living high off the hog and not burning those calories.  So, a little meat on their bones is fine and even desirable.  Gluttony on the other hand is seen as what it is whether you are low or high class. Scars and pock marks are rare when healing magic exists.  On the other hand, body builders and super models are the greyhounds of society, they are high maintenance forms that are rare (and perhaps even supernatural.)

I'm not sure what the general point is you're driving at here. But I think I agree in that I don't prefer the constant standard should be adventurers looking like body builders and super models posing for the camera.

Obviously, it's a matter of taste, but I happen to like the tone original Player's Handbook by Trampier as well as the Erol Otus covers for the Basic Set. From this thread, though, it sounds like many posters don't like this - that they want PCs to be attractive and highlighted, as became more common in 2E.

Quote from: Cipher on January 21, 2024, 01:39:57 AM

Quote from: SHARK on January 21, 2024, 12:21:39 AM

Quote from: Cipher on January 20, 2024, 11:45:55 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2024, 08:54:37 PM
Greetings!

In my world of Thandor, there is a Dark Mutation that transforms the host humanoid into a gigantic, no-neck, undulating behemoth woman. ;D

There are also cults composed entirely of such Behemoth-women members. Some of these Behemoth cults also create and organize civic action groups, where groups of Behemoth women gather together in urban streets to promote protests and riots, as they shriek at, and lecture nearby citizens.

There are also dark cults of Behemoth-women that operate depraved sex rings and clubs, where they dominate and play with hordes of weak male simps. Many of these terrible examples of males also actually *pay* the Behemoth-women to dominate them and engage with them in sexual parties.

Such fun opportunities! I use them periodically as villains, and as encounters that remind the players of how gross, depraved, and disgusting civilized society can be.

Such encounters with Behemoth women always inspire outbursts of humour in my groups. The women are especially savage!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

What is the root cause of this mutation?

Can any female character be stroke with it? Or is this something like the "flaking rot" that comes from a ghoul or such foul undead creature?

Greetings!

Well, the root-cause of the Dark Mutation comes from Chaos Energy, or Chaos Taint, which comes from the dark, monstrous realms of Nav, and the Dark Gods. Anytime a person rejects righteousness and the natural order, thereby embracing depravity, they can then be afflicted by such Dark Mutations. Dark Mutations can burst forth from within, based upon the individual's depravity and rebellion. Other avenues, as one might imagine, are embracing the worship of Dark and evil gods. Yet another is being exposed to various kinds of Chaos Diseases. Likewise, using various Dark spells, evil magic items, and participating in dark, evil rituals.

So, there are many avenues from which a person may gain such Dark Mutations.

Female humanoids, of course, they are otherwise mortal and can be afflicted with Dark Mutations, in the same manner that any male humanoid can be.

There is also an Undead Variant of the Behemoth Queen mutation. Thus, there are huge, towering Zombie and Ghoul women, ponderously moving along, layers of fetid blubber hanging from them. Clouds of stench hovering around them at all times. Such women also attract clouds of flies that hover and crawl about them, feasting on the sweat, the postules of body fluid and lesions seeping malevolent pus.

With diseases, of course, such creatures are frequently riddled with pestilence. Being touched by their fetid juices can of course be contagious in spreading their diseases. There are depraved cults full of men and women alike, but mostly men--that seek out such Behemoth Ghoul Queens, and make them a twisted focus of worship, sensuality, and servitude. Such pathetic creatures eagerly lay with the Behemoth Ghouls, wallowing in their streams of filth, intentionally hoping to become infected by their diseases, so that they can enter the glories of the new age to come. ;D

The "Ick" factor and shrieking humour practically writes itself whenever my parties encounter these kinds of monstrous women. The players, themselves, will provide you with an endless barrage of humour and dark commentary! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I see. Very interesting. Did you draw inspiration from Warhammer fantasy Chaos corruption for this? Not saying it in a negative manner, there's nothing new under the sun.

Also, I assume this can have mechanical representation in gameplay. Say, a player character can be afflicted by these?

Greetings!

Oh, yes. Totally inspired from Warhammer's Chaos Corruption!

And, yes indeed there is mechanical representation in the game. I have an entire Dark Mutations Table that I can either choose from, or make random dice rolls from. Each Dark Mutation having a thorough rules and mechanics profile.

Player Characters can, and have been afflicted with such Dark Mutations. That always results in lots of drama. *Laughing* I have game mechanics detailed where Players, for example, have some chance of being healed from such Dark Mutations, and restored to their normal selves. However, the process typically involves dangerous quests, sacrifice, and much dedication and faith for such redemption and cleansing to be achieved.

Most people or creatures that are afflicted with Dark Mutations are, well, just effed. Most of the time, they embrace wickedness and evil, spurred on by growing madness and depravity. As doomed Slaves to Darkness, they join the ranks of The Lost and the Damned ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on January 21, 2024, 07:57:09 AM
I'm not sure what the general point is you're driving at here. But I think I agree in that I don't prefer the constant standard should be adventurers looking like body builders and super models posing for the camera.

Obviously, it's a matter of taste, but I happen to like the tone original Player's Handbook by Trampier as well as the Erol Otus covers for the Basic Set. From this thread, though, it sounds like many posters don't like this - that they want PCs to be attractive and highlighted, as became more common in 2E.

I remember when I was in the British Territorial Army Reserve, I noticed that pretty well all the younger soldiers were well above average attractiveness, both sexes - though I paid more attention to the girls. ;D I remember one somewhat overweight 'curvy' female soldier at a snooker game; no supermodel, but because she was fit, she was definitely still sexy, and very attractive bending over that snooker table.  8)

I think adventurers are a lot like soldiers, the older veteran ones may look beaten up like the 1e PHB cover characters, but young ones will generally be good looking, simply through being in near peak physical shape.

Quote from: S'mon on January 21, 2024, 05:26:20 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 21, 2024, 07:57:09 AM
I'm not sure what the general point is you're driving at here. But I think I agree in that I don't prefer the constant standard should be adventurers looking like body builders and super models posing for the camera.

Obviously, it's a matter of taste, but I happen to like the tone original Player's Handbook by Trampier as well as the Erol Otus covers for the Basic Set. From this thread, though, it sounds like many posters don't like this - that they want PCs to be attractive and highlighted, as became more common in 2E.

I remember when I was in the British Territorial Army Reserve, I noticed that pretty well all the younger soldiers were well above average attractiveness, both sexes - though I paid more attention to the girls. ;D I remember one somewhat overweight 'curvy' female soldier at a snooker game; no supermodel, but because she was fit, she was definitely still sexy, and very attractive bending over that snooker table.  8)

I think adventurers are a lot like soldiers, the older veteran ones may look beaten up like the 1e PHB cover characters, but young ones will generally be good looking, simply through being in near peak physical shape.

Sure. Being physically fit with no major health issues will skew the demographic more attractive.

What did you think of the 1E PHB cover, though, with this in mind? Specifically, did you have a problem with it because you thought that the adventurers should look more attractive?

There's a huge difference between art where the subjects look like people who are physically attractive, and art where the subjects look like models just out of hair and makeup posing for the camera.

---

EDITED TO ADD: To clarify, I have no problem with Boris Vallejo art and posed models in general - in places where it fits. For example, I am a fan of Macho Women With Guns, where that is largely the premise of the game. Or a glam Rocker in Cyberpunk. But a lot of the 2E D&D art looked like posed models (both male and female) standing around looking at the camera, rather than conveying action in a vivid dungeon.

When I was a virginal pre-teen boy early 80s, sure, I obsessed over the Succubus and Sylph in the Monster Manual - and the slave girls in the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide. But as an adult, I have plenty of outlets for seeing models in skimpy outfits. Heck, I have a hard time avoiding them in Internet advertising.

Quote from: jhkim on January 21, 2024, 09:06:07 PM
There's a huge difference between art where the subjects look like people who are physically attractive, and art where the subjects look like models just out of hair and makeup posing for the camera.

Out of curiosity, into which of those two categories would you sort these two KMart-brand Eowyns? (from Against the Darkmaster):
(https://i.postimg.cc/FsdB70xh/VsDM1.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/KYH9Gzg1/VsDM2.jpg)

And just for laughs, what about this absolute gigachad?
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmf1B245/VsDM3.jpg)

Quote from: jhkim on January 20, 2024, 02:05:40 AM

Quote from: SHARK on January 19, 2024, 06:53:20 PM
As for art, well, yeah, I always like yummy looking women. The men need to look like beasts as well. That should be the norm, and the constant standard.

Having said that, on occasion, a very different character is fine, and appropriate. Based on subject matter, etc.

I liked it when the standard for characters looked like this:

(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/1e_chars.png)

These characters don't look like beasts. They look plain, which is fine. I'm not opposed to characters looking like Fabio or Hemsworth, but I don't think it needs to be the majority of all characters.

I like that cover, too.  It gets the probable sex of the adventurers correct, along with the aesthetic.  I'm kind of surprised you'd pick an example with no women as your example in a thread about ugly women in RPGs, but it's nice to see you coming around...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 21, 2024, 11:30:37 PMI'm kind of surprised you'd pick an example with no women as your example in a thread about ugly women in RPGs....

Goes to the greater logic being examined. Part of the reason unattractive and un-athletic female characters are rare is the general player tendency to avoid such characters whatever their sex. However, the other extreme of unrealistically gorgeous characters (especially if every character in a particular product is so depicted) is likewise worth criticizing, from a verisimilitude/plausibility standpoint.

As a result, if the optimum is to go back to the original "old school" art style, some reminder examples of just what that used to be -- decent but unspectacular looks for adventurers, mostly male with the occasional (and most likely somewhat better looking) female adventurer among them -- would not be out of place.

Greetings!

Yeah, 2-Time World Kickboxing Champion, Belorussian Katya Kavaleva puts all the fat, bloated, blue-haired landwhales to shame. Katya is 6'5" and weighs 200-lbs. Omagine wrestling with her!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

@JhKim yes I like the grizzled 1e PHB adventurers a lot. But I like Morgan Ironwolf and Aleena too. I agree re Vallejo art.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 22, 2024, 12:58:54 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 21, 2024, 11:30:37 PMI'm kind of surprised you'd pick an example with no women as your example in a thread about ugly women in RPGs....

Goes to the greater logic being examined. Part of the reason unattractive and un-athletic female characters are rare is the general player tendency to avoid such characters whatever their sex. However, the other extreme of unrealistically gorgeous characters (especially if every character in a particular product is so depicted) is likewise worth criticizing, from a verisimilitude/plausibility standpoint.

Yup. And a lot of people are posting pictures of non-ugly, non-fat women -- which is also outside the strict topic. SHARK and Opaopajr both explicitly said that the same standard should apply for men and women - the men should be "beefcake" or "beasts".

I think that for both men and women, it's fine to have attractive PC illustrations, and it's also fine to have some unattractive PC illustrations - for both men and women.

Quote from: S'mon on January 22, 2024, 04:57:22 AM
@JhKim yes I like the grizzled 1e PHB adventurers a lot. But I like Morgan Ironwolf and Aleena too. I agree re Vallejo art.

As I said, I don't have a problem with attractive PCs - just that it shouldn't be the constant standard. I also like Dee's cover for Module A1 which is on topic for the thread.

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0149/6074/files/6029126-origpic-86c5ba_J_grande.jpg)

I don't think Elwita on the right is ugly (it's hard to tell), but she's certainly shown in action rather than posing.

I was just thinking what a middle aged adventuress should look like. A grizzled biker chick or MMA Fighter maybe. Definitely not a "land whale" type. I guess the occasional stout wizard of either sex is ok.

Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2024, 08:13:28 AM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 22, 2024, 12:58:54 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 21, 2024, 11:30:37 PMI'm kind of surprised you'd pick an example with no women as your example in a thread about ugly women in RPGs....

Goes to the greater logic being examined. Part of the reason unattractive and un-athletic female characters are rare is the general player tendency to avoid such characters whatever their sex. However, the other extreme of unrealistically gorgeous characters (especially if every character in a particular product is so depicted) is likewise worth criticizing, from a verisimilitude/plausibility standpoint.

Yup. And a lot of people are posting pictures of non-ugly, non-fat women -- which is also outside the strict topic. SHARK and Opaopajr both explicitly said that the same standard should apply for men and women - the men should be "beefcake" or "beasts".

I think that for both men and women, it's fine to have attractive PC illustrations, and it's also fine to have some unattractive PC illustrations - for both men and women.

Quote from: S'mon on January 22, 2024, 04:57:22 AM
@JhKim yes I like the grizzled 1e PHB adventurers a lot. But I like Morgan Ironwolf and Aleena too. I agree re Vallejo art.

As I said, I don't have a problem with attractive PCs - just that it shouldn't be the constant standard. I also like Dee's cover for Module A1 which is on topic for the thread.

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0149/6074/files/6029126-origpic-86c5ba_J_grande.jpg)

I don't think Elwita on the right is ugly (it's hard to tell), but she's certainly shown in action rather than posing.

  Its a female with a beard...she is ugly as hell.

Quote from: jhkim on January 20, 2024, 02:05:40 AM

Quote from: SHARK on January 19, 2024, 06:53:20 PM
As for art, well, yeah, I always like yummy looking women. The men need to look like beasts as well. That should be the norm, and the constant standard.

Having said that, on occasion, a very different character is fine, and appropriate. Based on subject matter, etc.

I liked it when the standard for characters looked like this:

(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/1e_chars.png)

These characters don't look like beasts. They look plain, which is fine. I'm not opposed to characters looking like Fabio or Hemsworth, but I don't think it needs to be the majority of all characters.

  The guy in armor looks to be around 6'3" and square jawed and broad shouldered.   The dude cleaning his sword is not as big, but also square jawed and tough.  He is in the background and sitting as well as covered in mail...so it is not so easy to determine physical size.  Wizard looks to be thin and frail...but probably is simply an average sized dude who looks small due to company.   Even the rogue has a square jaw and athletic build.  I suspect the guy in the plate armor is a beast.  The artist just put him in armor as any practical minded warrior is going to wear the best armor he can verses showing everyone he put 50 pounds on his best bench by showing everyone his bare shoulders and chest.   I would agree the vallejo representation tends to overstate men to a degree....but that guy in plate armor is college linebacker sized...and I do not know where you live but that is in NO WAY the average or normal man walking the streets...its a beast.

NO,...they're Not.

There can be a variety of looks - but players practically never ask to play an ugly character.

- Ed C.

Honestly guys, all you have to do is open up Thirsty Sword Lesbians to see the "body positivity" in all of its glory. Or, you know, don't and save your sanity and soul.

Quote from: oggsmash on January 22, 2024, 11:33:42 AM

Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2024, 08:13:28 AM

Quote from: S'mon on January 22, 2024, 04:57:22 AM
@JhKim yes I like the grizzled 1e PHB adventurers a lot. But I like Morgan Ironwolf and Aleena too. I agree re Vallejo art.

As I said, I don't have a problem with attractive PCs - just that it shouldn't be the constant standard. I also like Dee's cover for Module A1 which is on topic for the thread.

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0149/6074/files/6029126-origpic-86c5ba_J_grande.jpg)

I don't think Elwita on the right is ugly (it's hard to tell), but she's certainly shown in action rather than posing.

  Its a female with a beard...she is ugly as hell.

That's fine. I just meant that we don't know what she would look like if we could see her face sans beard and hammer-swinging-arm in front of it. Female dwarves having beards was established by Gygax (Dragon magazine #38, 1980) - which is in keeping with Tolkien. That's when Module A1 came out, so it was following canon rather than an artistic choice. I think it was WotC in 3rd edition who reversed that, though I'm not sure.

Anyway, I like the cover, and I don't see a problem with having an ugly dwarf fighter in illustrations. As I said, nothing wrong with pretty characters, but it's fine if there are some ugly ones too.

Quote from: Dropbear on January 22, 2024, 01:02:56 PM
Honestly guys, all you have to do is open up Thirsty Sword Lesbians to see the "body positivity" in all of its glory.

Leading onto the next logical question: What are the sales figures for TSL like? There may be a market for nontraditional beauty depictions, but how professionally viable is it?

And it's worth pointing out that even in the picture from TSL linked above, in post #25, (a) all the figures have symmetrical features and no maiming or facial scarring, (b) nearly half of them are wearing high heels and showing off the shape of their leg, (c) all but one of them have bust-waist-hip ratios where the waist is smaller in the middle, and (d) maybe up to half of them appear to be wearing makeup. In other words, half the deliberate "unattractiveness" of those drawings is in the garishness of the costumes, and nothing else -- if those shapes and faces were put into tasteful and understated fashions instead they would all be reasonably pleasant-looking, and the "nontraditional positivity" they make so much of really doesn't go as far as they think it does.

Big nope here, buddy. Every single one of them, garish clothes or not, are ugly af to me.  I think their art is poor and the characters are highly unattractive because of it. Just goes to show you that tastes vary widely.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 22, 2024, 05:05:52 PM

Quote from: Dropbear on January 22, 2024, 01:02:56 PM
Honestly guys, all you have to do is open up Thirsty Sword Lesbians to see the "body positivity" in all of its glory.

Leading onto the next logical question: What are the sales figures for TSL like? There may be a market for nontraditional beauty depictions, but how professionally viable is it?

Thirsty Sword Lesbians made $298K in its Kickstarter, which is slightly more than the $291 for "Old-School Essentials: Advanced Fantasy". That's far from the biggest Kickstarters like Avatar: Legends RPG ($9.5M) or Dolmenwood ($1.4M) -- but it's bigger than most RPG Kickstarters. 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/evilhat/thirsty-sword-lesbians

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/exaltedfuneral/old-school-essentials-advanced-fantasy

Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2024, 06:17:38 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 22, 2024, 05:05:52 PM

Quote from: Dropbear on January 22, 2024, 01:02:56 PM
Honestly guys, all you have to do is open up Thirsty Sword Lesbians to see the "body positivity" in all of its glory.

Leading onto the next logical question: What are the sales figures for TSL like? There may be a market for nontraditional beauty depictions, but how professionally viable is it?

Thirsty Sword Lesbians made $298K in its Kickstarter, which is slightly more than the $291 for "Old-School Essentials: Advanced Fantasy". That's far from the biggest Kickstarters like Avatar: Legends RPG ($9.5M) or Dolmenwood ($1.4M) -- but it's bigger than most RPG Kickstarters. 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/evilhat/thirsty-sword-lesbians

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/exaltedfuneral/old-school-essentials-advanced-fantasy

The difference is that people actually play Old School Essentials (OSE)

Also, people are actually spending money on OSE adventures and 'zines from Necrotic Gnome and other publishers.  There is an actual market for OSE products as opposed to sholathy money for Thirsty Sword Lesbians.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 22, 2024, 06:53:36 PMThere is an actual market for OSE products as opposed to sholathy money for Thirsty Sword Lesbians.

My Google-fu has failed me: "sholathy"?

Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2024, 06:17:38 PMThirsty Sword Lesbians made $298K in its Kickstarter, which is slightly more than the $291 for "Old-School Essentials: Advanced Fantasy".

What have the post-Kickstarter sales been like? It would not surprise me to find out that most of the people who wanted to actually buy and play TSL got their copy during said Kickstarter.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 22, 2024, 06:59:14 PM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 22, 2024, 06:53:36 PMThere is an actual market for OSE products as opposed to sholathy money for Thirsty Sword Lesbians.

My Google-fu has failed me: "sholathy"?

That was supposed to be "Sympathy". 

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 22, 2024, 07:37:55 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2024, 06:17:38 PMThirsty Sword Lesbians made $298K in its Kickstarter, which is slightly more than the $291 for "Old-School Essentials: Advanced Fantasy".

What have the post-Kickstarter sales been like? It would not surprise me to find out that most of the people who wanted to actually buy and play TSL got their copy during said Kickstarter.

The only number that I could find is that as of 2021 Q3 it had sold 13,000 copies, as reported by Evil Hat Production.

Also of note is that even though the Kickstarter made $298K, the number of backers was 8,152.

In their own Kickstarter they list that after all was said and done, they bagged $88K as profit for their efforts.

Which clearly shows there is money to be made, but doesn't really say anything about the staying power of the game and how many people are actually playing it.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on January 18, 2024, 03:34:25 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 18, 2024, 09:46:04 AM
I have never seen a single player, either male or female, play a female PC who was overweight or unattractive.

I'll admit it: the one time I played a female character was in 50 Fathoms, where I played some female squid thing.  "Oh, so she had boobs and a vagina right?"  Nope and nope; not that it ever came up, but I figured she would reproduce like a squid does (squirts eggs out on the floor, male squirts on the eggs, no lactation so no breasts, and all of it about as arousing as watching a spastic make a PB&J sandwich*).  Which isn't anything like mammals do, but still much less horrific than octopus reproduction.

(*"Hey!  Spastic squid reproduction on bread is -my- fetish!"  No it isn't, hypothetical internet person, no it isn't.)

Somehow mermaids became less sexy after I read this comic...
(https://safr.kingfeatures.com/api/img.php?e=png&s=c&file=Qml6YXJyby8yMDIxLzA3L0JpemFycm9fcC4yMDIxMDcwMl82NTcucG5n)

Quote from: DocJones on January 22, 2024, 08:31:39 PM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on January 18, 2024, 03:34:25 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 18, 2024, 09:46:04 AM
I have never seen a single player, either male or female, play a female PC who was overweight or unattractive.

I'll admit it: the one time I played a female character was in 50 Fathoms, where I played some female squid thing.  "Oh, so she had boobs and a vagina right?"  Nope and nope; not that it ever came up, but I figured she would reproduce like a squid does (squirts eggs out on the floor, male squirts on the eggs, no lactation so no breasts, and all of it about as arousing as watching a spastic make a PB&J sandwich*).  Which isn't anything like mammals do, but still much less horrific than octopus reproduction.

(*"Hey!  Spastic squid reproduction on bread is -my- fetish!"  No it isn't, hypothetical internet person, no it isn't.)

Somehow mermaids became less sexy after I read this comic...
(https://safr.kingfeatures.com/api/img.php?e=png&s=c&file=Qml6YXJyby8yMDIxLzA3L0JpemFycm9fcC4yMDIxMDcwMl82NTcucG5n)

Same thing happened to me, but with that one Futurama episode.

Quote from: Cipher on January 22, 2024, 08:14:44 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 22, 2024, 07:37:55 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2024, 06:17:38 PMThirsty Sword Lesbians made $298K in its Kickstarter, which is slightly more than the $291 for "Old-School Essentials: Advanced Fantasy".

What have the post-Kickstarter sales been like? It would not surprise me to find out that most of the people who wanted to actually buy and play TSL got their copy during said Kickstarter.

The only number that I could find is that as of 2021 Q3 it had sold 13,000 copies, as reported by Evil Hat Production.

Also of note is that even though the Kickstarter made $298K, the number of backers was 8,152.

In their own Kickstarter they list that after all was said and done, they bagged $88K as profit for their efforts.

Which clearly shows there is money to be made, but doesn't really say anything about the staying power of the game and how many people are actually playing it.

Thanks, Cipher. I tried checking its sales in Amazon, but they have bizarrely classified it as "Costume Weapons & Armor". It's #661 in that category, but it's not directly comparable to other RPGs.

https://www.amazon.com/Evil-Hat-Productions-17197-Lesbians/dp/1613171978/

It's one supplement, "Advanced Lovers & Lesbians", is rated #825 in "Martial Arts Swords". (?!?)

https://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Lovers-Lesbians-Supplement-Hardback/dp/1613172001/

Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2024, 08:49:53 PM

Quote from: Cipher on January 22, 2024, 08:14:44 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 22, 2024, 07:37:55 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2024, 06:17:38 PMThirsty Sword Lesbians made $298K in its Kickstarter, which is slightly more than the $291 for "Old-School Essentials: Advanced Fantasy".

What have the post-Kickstarter sales been like? It would not surprise me to find out that most of the people who wanted to actually buy and play TSL got their copy during said Kickstarter.

The only number that I could find is that as of 2021 Q3 it had sold 13,000 copies, as reported by Evil Hat Production.

Also of note is that even though the Kickstarter made $298K, the number of backers was 8,152.

In their own Kickstarter they list that after all was said and done, they bagged $88K as profit for their efforts.

Which clearly shows there is money to be made, but doesn't really say anything about the staying power of the game and how many people are actually playing it.

Thanks, Cipher. I tried checking its sales in Amazon, but they have bizarrely classified it as "Costume Weapons & Armor". It's #661 in that category, but it's not directly comparable to other RPGs.

https://www.amazon.com/Evil-Hat-Productions-17197-Lesbians/dp/1613171978/

It's one supplement, "Advanced Lovers & Lesbians", is rated #825 in "Martial Arts Swords". (?!?)

https://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Lovers-Lesbians-Supplement-Hardback/dp/1613172001/

I see. Any thoughts on why they would classify it in such a manner?

I don't know enough, hence why I ask, but does Amazon has a ttrpg classification? If not, then it would explain these choices.

Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2024, 03:08:17 PM
That's fine. I just meant that we don't know what she would look like if we could see her face sans beard and hammer-swinging-arm in front of it. Female dwarves having beards was established by Gygax (Dragon magazine #38, 1980) - which is in keeping with Tolkien. That's when Module A1 came out, so it was following canon rather than an artistic choice. I think it was WotC in 3rd edition who reversed that, though I'm not sure.

I only have the starter box and revised PHB pdfs for 2e handy. The Revised PHB interestingly does not reference beards in the text description for dwarves at all. The Introduction to AD&D starter box says that "Dwarves are short, stocky creatures with long braided beards and burly builds". So it's probably safe to say that for D&D at least, 3rd edition canonized female dwarves not having beards. I don't have the pdfs for the first edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, but the second edition also just says "dwarfs have beards", not specifying by male or female. The Gotrek and Felix story "The Dark Beneath the World" (originally published 1990) includes a female dwarf, and I don't think it mentions a beard, though I'm not sure (even though I just read it recently).

If I had to guess, I'd suspect it was World of Warcraft that canonized female dwarfs not having beards for most people, since that tends to be the case with most things modern fantasy. The fact that it is now nearly universal in fantasy media is probably a decent point of evidence that most players want their female characters to be more attractive. The way WoW treated some of its other races certainly is:

The female orcs and trolls don't even look like the same species as the males  :P
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0zzThhn/WoW1.png) (https://i.postimg.cc/W43B74sG/WoW2.jpg)

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 22, 2024, 11:48:36 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2024, 03:08:17 PM
That's fine. I just meant that we don't know what she would look like if we could see her face sans beard and hammer-swinging-arm in front of it. Female dwarves having beards was established by Gygax (Dragon magazine #38, 1980) - which is in keeping with Tolkien. That's when Module A1 came out, so it was following canon rather than an artistic choice. I think it was WotC in 3rd edition who reversed that, though I'm not sure.

I only have the starter box and revised PHB pdfs for 2e handy. The Revised PHB interestingly does not reference beards in the text description for dwarves at all. The Introduction to AD&D starter box says that "Dwarves are short, stocky creatures with long braided beards and burly builds". So it's probably safe to say that for D&D at least, 3rd edition canonized female dwarves not having beards. I don't have the pdfs for the first edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, but the second edition also just says "dwarfs have beards", not specifying by male or female. The Gotrek and Felix story "The Dark Beneath the World" (originally published 1990) includes a female dwarf, and I don't think it mentions a beard, though I'm not sure (even though I just read it recently).

If I had to guess, I'd suspect it was World of Warcraft that canonized female dwarfs not having beards for most people, since that tends to be the case with most things modern fantasy. The fact that it is now nearly universal in fantasy media is probably a decent point of evidence that most players want their female characters to be more attractive. The way WoW treated some of its other races certainly is:

The female orcs and trolls don't even look like the same species as the males  :P
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0zzThhn/WoW1.png) (https://i.postimg.cc/W43B74sG/WoW2.jpg)

Specially, the female Troll. You can't even see her tusks and no hunch stance either.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 22, 2024, 11:48:36 PM
The way WoW treated some of its other races certainly is:

I remember when The Burning Crusade came out and a bunch of people started playing Horde because they finally had a pretty race in the Blood Elves.
(https://i.imgur.com/fXGUBjm.jpeg)

For me, this is the type of art/aesthetics I like for a fantasy game/story:


(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqvW5NVL/124645-2x.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/15ghTKtM/124725-2x.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/tgRHrGVn/124766-2x.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/63GbcMzG/Captured.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fy1wFqhn/Dragons-of-Triumph.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/bYnNS80q/e78zy-IZi-0211171101451gpadd.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/wBbLMHXh/Fqy-FD0-ac-AE4-BE.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnmRKDM8/FWOV9-Z5-Xk-AA-Lj-P.jpg)


Men are ripped and look like men. Women are fit and look like women.

Someone can argue about women showing leg but you can see men showing leg and even torso as well. It's just a style to show some skin I don't find this pornographic or in bad taste.

The art is excellent, has a lot of use of color, perspective, and detail. It's evocative and like I said, men look like men and women look like women. Yes, a little more idealistic, but adventurers would almost always tend to be on the fit side of the scale with low body fat and well defined muscles, for both men and women, since they have to walk a lot, fight and eat on the road while rationing their food instead of sitting all day and gorging McDonalds.

I can see the argument that is a little too stylized but I like my fantasy heroes to be idealistic. Something you can aspire to be. Men are ripped but not huge. They don't have the roided to the gills bodybuilder type of body. Same with the women, they are fit and have a good figure, but not unrealistic or plastic amounts of T and A.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 22, 2024, 11:48:36 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2024, 03:08:17 PM
That's fine. I just meant that we don't know what she would look like if we could see her face sans beard and hammer-swinging-arm in front of it. Female dwarves having beards was established by Gygax (Dragon magazine #38, 1980) - which is in keeping with Tolkien. That's when Module A1 came out, so it was following canon rather than an artistic choice. I think it was WotC in 3rd edition who reversed that, though I'm not sure.

I only have the starter box and revised PHB pdfs for 2e handy. The Revised PHB interestingly does not reference beards in the text description for dwarves at all. The Introduction to AD&D starter box says that "Dwarves are short, stocky creatures with long braided beards and burly builds". So it's probably safe to say that for D&D at least, 3rd edition canonized female dwarves not having beards. I don't have the pdfs for the first edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, but the second edition also just says "dwarfs have beards", not specifying by male or female. The Gotrek and Felix story "The Dark Beneath the World" (originally published 1990) includes a female dwarf, and I don't think it mentions a beard, though I'm not sure (even though I just read it recently).

If I had to guess, I'd suspect it was World of Warcraft that canonized female dwarfs not having beards for most people, since that tends to be the case with most things modern fantasy. The fact that it is now nearly universal in fantasy media is probably a decent point of evidence that most players want their female characters to be more attractive. The way WoW treated some of its other races certainly is:

The female orcs and trolls don't even look like the same species as the males  :P
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0zzThhn/WoW1.png) (https://i.postimg.cc/W43B74sG/WoW2.jpg)

Probably not what moat people think, but in Norse myth female dwarves dont have beards either. Gleipnir was made from impossible things like the "roots of mountains and breath of fish" one of the ingredients was a woman's beard which implies that its just as impossible as the other stuff. Though norse Dwarf =/= Fantasy Dwarves really but its an interesting anecdote.

Quote from: Cipher on January 23, 2024, 12:46:25 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 22, 2024, 11:48:36 PM
If I had to guess, I'd suspect it was World of Warcraft that canonized female dwarfs not having beards for most people, since that tends to be the case with most things modern fantasy. The fact that it is now nearly universal in fantasy media is probably a decent point of evidence that most players want their female characters to be more attractive. The way WoW treated some of its other races certainly is:

The female orcs and trolls don't even look like the same species as the males  :P
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0zzThhn/WoW1.png) (https://i.postimg.cc/W43B74sG/WoW2.jpg)

Specially, the female Troll. You can't even see her tusks and no hunch stance either.

Yeah, this is my problem with the "ugly women are bad" side of things. I want female orcs and trolls to look like the same species. More broadly, it messes with my sense of verisimilitude if characters look like posing models.

Quote from: Cipher on January 29, 2024, 12:56:24 AM
For me, this is the type of art/aesthetics I like for a fantasy game/story:
...
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnmRKDM8/FWOV9-Z5-Xk-AA-Lj-P.jpg)

Men are ripped and look like men. Women are fit and look like women.

Someone can argue about women showing leg but you can see men showing leg and even torso as well. It's just a style to show some skin I don't find this pornographic or in bad taste.

Taking the last image there. It's not that I find it pornographic or in poor taste, but I prefer the original PHB cover because to me, this one doesn't make sense. The barbarian doesn't look like he just forced the door open with his shoulder. He looks like he is standing and posing - and the door shattered inward from the awesomeness of his body-building stance. It has the feel of posed models.

The original PHB cover gives more of a sense of action in a real world to me. The figures look fit (as oggsmash says), but they don't look like posing models.

Likewise, this one:

Quote from: Cipher on January 29, 2024, 12:56:24 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/bYnNS80q/e78zy-IZi-0211171101451gpadd.jpg)

Here it's even more clear that the figures are standing and posing looking at the camera (or portrait-drawer, maybe). It feels posed, and the aesthetic is more than just their pose. There's a clean and bright look to their clothes and gear, and there's the glamour-shot lighting.

In the 1E era, the covers were more about characters more believably in the middle of action - styled for action more than glamour. There's the PHB and the Erol Otus Basic Set cover, and the Module A1 cover I posted earlier. If you prefer a more photorealistic style, there are still covers like the 1E Wilderness Survival Guide cover:

(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/d/d7/WildernessSurvivalGuide.jpg)

There is some posing in the stance here, but it's much more subtle. And the characters definitely look like they're in action. As oggsmash noted about the 1E PHB characters, they look like they're reasonably fit - but they just don't look like bodybuilders posing for an audience. Likewise, these characters aren't ugly - but they're not posed for glamour.

Quote from: jhkim on January 29, 2024, 02:30:31 AM

Quote from: Cipher on January 23, 2024, 12:46:25 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 22, 2024, 11:48:36 PM
If I had to guess, I'd suspect it was World of Warcraft that canonized female dwarfs not having beards for most people, since that tends to be the case with most things modern fantasy. The fact that it is now nearly universal in fantasy media is probably a decent point of evidence that most players want their female characters to be more attractive. The way WoW treated some of its other races certainly is:

The female orcs and trolls don't even look like the same species as the males  :P
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0zzThhn/WoW1.png) (https://i.postimg.cc/W43B74sG/WoW2.jpg)

Specially, the female Troll. You can't even see her tusks and no hunch stance either.

Yeah, this is my problem with the "ugly women are bad" side of things. I want female orcs and trolls to look like the same species. More broadly, it messes with my sense of verisimilitude if characters look like posing models.

There is a specific reason why this happened. Warcraft being a video game franchise is important.

Code and memory storage could only handle so much, so "orc grunt" was always the same art model. There were some female hero units, but I don't think there were any female regular units until Warcraft 3. Even then, a particular unit always had the same sex. Archers were female and druids were male. When the MMORPG comes out, however, the game has to accommodate both male and female characters for every race. While the majority of the player base was male, women did want to play the game.

As a general rule, people don't stray far from themselves. There are people who play the opposite sex, and women in the early 2000s did this more often, the overwhelming majority of people play their own sex.

The majority of women don't want to play an ugly character. Simple as. I remember having this conversation with a friend that I played with at the time, and even the female orc was too "butch" for her. She wouldn't play it. This woman isn't unusual. I've seen my sister-in-law do the same thing. So while it's true that they don't look like the same species, women vetoed playing the female version of an orc or a troll. They wanted to be the orc or troll version of a real woman, instead. So that's what the developer made.

World of Warcraft was so big that it influenced a lot of later artwork.

the "nontraditional positivity" they make so much of really doesn't go as far as they think it does

They will tell you Lizzo is beautiful, but woe betide the man who says "you look just like Lizzo".

The female orcs and trolls don't even look like the same species as the males

I always preferred Castle Falkenstein's approach: there are no female dwarves, and no male elves.  They're one species with extreme sexual dimorphism.

Quote from: daniel_ream on January 29, 2024, 12:27:48 PM
I always preferred Castle Falkenstein's approach: there are no female dwarves, and no male elves.  They're one species with extreme sexual dimorphism.

That's actually a really neat way of making elves and dwarves more alien too.

Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on January 29, 2024, 12:51:17 PM

Quote from: daniel_ream on January 29, 2024, 12:27:48 PM
I always preferred Castle Falkenstein's approach: there are no female dwarves, and no male elves.  They're one species with extreme sexual dimorphism.

That's actually a really neat way of making elves and dwarves more alien too.

You can have a lot of fun with that idea.  Perhaps the dwarves carve their kin out of stone and then call upon their gods to animate them with the breath of life.  Literally, every dwarf is a blessing from their god.  While elves on the other hand might be like Mass Effect Assari in that they can bond/mate with anyone but any children will be another female elf.  Sorry, no half elves in that setting.

I can't remember if it's CF canon or fanon, but I recall reading a loresheet that said that the reason dwarves are so avaricious is that elves are very rare - no 50-50 births here - and picky, and it is every adult dwarf's life goal to accumulate enough wealth to impress an elf-maid enough to get her to settle down with him.  Strongly implied is that the vast majority of dwarfs never do.

Quote from: daniel_ream on January 29, 2024, 02:52:04 PM
I can't remember if it's CF canon or fanon, but I recall reading a loresheet that said that the reason dwarves are so avaricious is that elves are very rare - no 50-50 births here - and picky, and it is every adult dwarf's life goal to accumulate enough wealth to impress an elf-maid enough to get her to settle down with him.  Strongly implied is that the vast majority of dwarfs never do.

That's not the impression I got from the core books. Note that Castle Falkenstein doesn't have "elf" per se as a character type. Rather, there are a dozen or more different types of Faerie characters - which include male and female, but there are a few male-only types (like Leprechauns) and more female types (like Selkies, Naiads, and Russalkie). From page 21,

QuoteThis finally brings me (in a roundabout way) to the subject of Dwarfen females. Remember a raging controversy in fantasy lit as to whether female dwarfs had beards? The answer--what female dwarfs? When a Dwarf falls in love, he marries a willing female from one of the other Faerie races, like a Naiad, White Lady or Russalkie. THe offspring always take after their parents: all the males turn out short and heavy-set like their Dwarfish fathers, while all the females turn out like their willowy Faerie mothers. Dad raises the boys under the mountains in his dwarfhold, the slender, beautiful females go off to live with their mothers; and everybody gets together throughout the year in big family gatherings that drive distracted human male observers to wonder "What on earth could she (a beautiful Naiad or Selkie) see in him (a short, bristly-bearded Dwarf engineer)?" It figures.

I like the argument about calories one of the commenters made earlier. In most medieval fantasy settings, as well as other grimdark types and post-apocalyptic fantasy, it must be hard to get thicker and bouncier. As far as ugly is concerned, I think that's quite subjective. I don't know a lot of players who emphasized/worried about playing good looking characters, honestly.

Quote from: Cipher on January 22, 2024, 09:42:41 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2024, 08:49:53 PM

Quote from: Cipher on January 22, 2024, 08:14:44 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 22, 2024, 07:37:55 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 22, 2024, 06:17:38 PMThirsty Sword Lesbians made $298K in its Kickstarter, which is slightly more than the $291 for "Old-School Essentials: Advanced Fantasy".

What have the post-Kickstarter sales been like? It would not surprise me to find out that most of the people who wanted to actually buy and play TSL got their copy during said Kickstarter.

The only number that I could find is that as of 2021 Q3 it had sold 13,000 copies, as reported by Evil Hat Production.

Also of note is that even though the Kickstarter made $298K, the number of backers was 8,152.

In their own Kickstarter they list that after all was said and done, they bagged $88K as profit for their efforts.

Which clearly shows there is money to be made, but doesn't really say anything about the staying power of the game and how many people are actually playing it.

Thanks, Cipher. I tried checking its sales in Amazon, but they have bizarrely classified it as "Costume Weapons & Armor". It's #661 in that category, but it's not directly comparable to other RPGs.

https://www.amazon.com/Evil-Hat-Productions-17197-Lesbians/dp/1613171978/

It's one supplement, "Advanced Lovers & Lesbians", is rated #825 in "Martial Arts Swords". (?!?)

https://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Lovers-Lesbians-Supplement-Hardback/dp/1613172001/

I see. Any thoughts on why they would classify it in such a manner?

I don't know enough, hence why I ask, but does Amazon has a ttrpg classification? If not, then it would explain these choices.

I believe books can have multiple classifications. The aim here is presumably to get the game in front of whichever people browsing Amazon might buy it, even if it doesn't fit the category.

Yes.  They're NPC villains.  Jealous, envious, and bitter about their lot in life they'll go to any extreme to get revenge.

...Er, almost any extreme.  Running a few miles a day is asking too much it seems.

Quote from: David Johansen on January 18, 2024, 05:08:34 PMAnd then, of course, there is Warhammer where a character who isn't twisted, ugly, pox ridden, and stinky will probably get burned as a witch.

I can partially agree with you there.

Even the all female factions like Sisters of battle and Sisters of Silence look hot as can be, boob armor plates and all. 

Or lack of armor for female Dark Eldar.  Hell, Slannesh demons and troops are a thing of their own, if they can even be considered two separate genders anymore. 

Female Custodies and that one Imperial Guard general, Ursula Creed, have made it into the lore. However, that's the exception.

But the default are women so hot that their buns of steel still show through any power armor. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 28, 2024, 04:48:36 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on January 18, 2024, 05:08:34 PMAnd then, of course, there is Warhammer where a character who isn't twisted, ugly, pox ridden, and stinky will probably get burned as a witch.

I can partially agree with you there.

Even the all female factions like Sisters of battle and Sisters of Silence look hot as can be, boob armor plates and all. 

Or lack of armor for female Dark Eldar.  Hell, Slannesh demons and troops are a thing of their own, if they can even be considered two separate genders anymore. 

Female Custodies and that one Imperial Guard general, Ursula Creed, have made it into the lore. However, that's the exception.

But the default are women so hot that their buns of steel still show through any power armor. 

Like many things with Warhammer, this seems to be wildly inconsistent depending on when you were exposed to the franchise, what sources you read, and who you ask. I'm more familiar with the Warhammer Fantasy Universe, but that at least can be pretty schizophrenic on the topic. The general vibe which the marketing and most of the official art wants to put out seems to be that everything in the world is grim, dirty and ugly, but they're perfectly happy to describe characters as beautiful in rpg modules and canon fiction. And then on top of that the art style has changed drastically over the editions.

Personally, I find that to make either universe coherent, you have to look past the "grim-derp" and just assume whatever makes sense. Warhammer humans are humans. Some will be hot. some will be fugly. Most will be average. Aristocrats and wealthy professionals will be clean and well dressed. Gongfarmers will smell like shit. Elves are gorgeous. Goblins are ugly. Dark elves are beautiful, but in a creepy way. So on and so forth.

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2024, 06:50:53 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 28, 2024, 04:48:36 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on January 18, 2024, 05:08:34 PMAnd then, of course, there is Warhammer where a character who isn't twisted, ugly, pox ridden, and stinky will probably get burned as a witch.

I can partially agree with you there.

Even the all female factions like Sisters of battle and Sisters of Silence look hot as can be, boob armor plates and all. 

Or lack of armor for female Dark Eldar.  Hell, Slannesh demons and troops are a thing of their own, if they can even be considered two separate genders anymore. 

Female Custodies and that one Imperial Guard general, Ursula Creed, have made it into the lore. However, that's the exception.

But the default are women so hot that their buns of steel still show through any power armor. 

Like many things with Warhammer, this seems to be wildly inconsistent depending on when you were exposed to the franchise, what sources you read, and who you ask. I'm more familiar with the Warhammer Fantasy Universe, but that at least can be pretty schizophrenic on the topic. The general vibe which the marketing and most of the official art wants to put out seems to be that everything in the world is grim, dirty and ugly, but they're perfectly happy to describe characters as beautiful in rpg modules and canon fiction. And then on top of that the art style has changed drastically over the editions.

Personally, I find that to make either universe coherent, you have to look past the "grim-derp" and just assume whatever makes sense. Warhammer humans are humans. Some will be hot. some will be fugly. Most will be average. Aristocrats and wealthy professionals will be clean and well dressed. Gongfarmers will smell like shit. Elves are gorgeous. Goblins are ugly. Dark elves are beautiful, but in a creepy way. So on and so forth.

Three words

Female Nurgle cultists. 

So some Googling turned up that nerds like us still cannot accept unattractive women, even for Grandfather Nurgle's army. There is no stopping male hormones it seems.  We like what we like.

I have noticed something with female players on Roll20.  The art they use for their characters is always of attractive women even if their character's stats don't really reflect that.  Some guys will use art of average looking guys for their characters but women never do.  They always use art of attractive women.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 28, 2024, 08:41:23 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2024, 06:50:53 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 28, 2024, 04:48:36 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on January 18, 2024, 05:08:34 PMAnd then, of course, there is Warhammer where a character who isn't twisted, ugly, pox ridden, and stinky will probably get burned as a witch.

I can partially agree with you there.

Even the all female factions like Sisters of battle and Sisters of Silence look hot as can be, boob armor plates and all. 

Or lack of armor for female Dark Eldar.  Hell, Slannesh demons and troops are a thing of their own, if they can even be considered two separate genders anymore. 

Female Custodies and that one Imperial Guard general, Ursula Creed, have made it into the lore. However, that's the exception.

But the default are women so hot that their buns of steel still show through any power armor. 

Like many things with Warhammer, this seems to be wildly inconsistent depending on when you were exposed to the franchise, what sources you read, and who you ask. I'm more familiar with the Warhammer Fantasy Universe, but that at least can be pretty schizophrenic on the topic. The general vibe which the marketing and most of the official art wants to put out seems to be that everything in the world is grim, dirty and ugly, but they're perfectly happy to describe characters as beautiful in rpg modules and canon fiction. And then on top of that the art style has changed drastically over the editions.

Personally, I find that to make either universe coherent, you have to look past the "grim-derp" and just assume whatever makes sense. Warhammer humans are humans. Some will be hot. some will be fugly. Most will be average. Aristocrats and wealthy professionals will be clean and well dressed. Gongfarmers will smell like shit. Elves are gorgeous. Goblins are ugly. Dark elves are beautiful, but in a creepy way. So on and so forth.

Three words

Female Nurgle cultists. 

So some Googling turned up that nerds like us still cannot accept unattractive women, even for Grandfather Nurgle's army. There is no stopping male hormones it seems.  We like what we like.

I mean, horny fanart is going to be a thing no matter what the source material is. I'm not sure how much it says about the universe or even how most people interpret it.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 28, 2024, 09:02:30 PMI have noticed something with female players on Roll20.  The art they use for their characters is always of attractive women even if their character's stats don't really reflect that.  Some guys will use art of average looking guys for their characters but women never do.  They always use art of attractive women.

Yeah I've generally noticed the same, with the caveat that female players will often choose not to play beautiful women. It's just that when they do, they tend to play as inhuman a character as they can. If they're not going to go with a hot chick, they'll be the one choosing to play a rock-monster or a sentient parakeet or whatever the weirdest thing the setting offers.

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2024, 11:33:34 PMYeah I've generally noticed the same, with the caveat that female players will often choose not to play beautiful women. It's just that when they do, they tend to play as inhuman a character as they can. If they're not going to go with a hot chick, they'll be the one choosing to play a rock-monster or a sentient parakeet or whatever the weirdest thing the setting offers.

I've seen this too, but I thought it might be an outlier.

I would think Orcs would find them a tasty and easy treat, not only meat is back in the menu but human bacon too.

I don't think I've *ever* had a player (male or female) play a fat, ugly female PC in one of my games. So from that admittedly anecdotal data I'd say "no, such characters aren't popular."

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 28, 2024, 09:02:30 PMI have noticed something with female players on Roll20.  The art they use for their characters is always of attractive women even if their character's stats don't really reflect that.  Some guys will use art of average looking guys for their characters but women never do.  They always use art of attractive women.

In my games, the females playing female characters usually want their PC to be pretty or even beautiful. Multiple times I've had female players describe a low Charisma score PC as being pretty, but cool/aloof/rude/arrogant/etc to explain the low score.

Quote from: Brad on January 18, 2024, 03:01:51 PMI see enough fat, ugly broads whenever I go to Walmart, why would I want to play one in a fantasy game?

Greetings!

Whenever I step inside a Walmart, I always laugh, as I feel like I have stepped into some crazy, human zoo!

So many people I see there are mind-numbingly gross and ugly. *Especially* the women. I quietly laugh hysterically, as so many of these gross, women Hogbeasts wear see-through pajamas, or too-tight, way-too small shirts that only cover half their torse, so that their rolls of bellyfat are jiggling openly for all to see!

And oftentimes, so many women wear brightly coloured, furry animal slippers!

In every aisle, there is yet some new horrific trainwreck to assault a person's eyes.

*Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 01, 2025, 09:44:20 PM

Quote from: Brad on January 18, 2024, 03:01:51 PMI see enough fat, ugly broads whenever I go to Walmart, why would I want to play one in a fantasy game?

Greetings!

Whenever I step inside a Walmart, I always laugh, as I feel like I have stepped into some crazy, human zoo!

So many people I see there are mind-numbingly gross and ugly. *Especially* the women. I quietly laugh hysterically, as so many of these gross, women Hogbeasts wear see-through pajamas, or too-tight, way-too small shirts that only cover half their torse, so that their rolls of bellyfat are jiggling openly for all to see!

And oftentimes, so many women wear brightly coloured, furry animal slippers!

In every aisle, there is yet some new horrific trainwreck to assault a person's eyes.

*Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

LOL, every Wal-Mart around the country must be the same.  It's like this in every one I've ever been in.  The too-tight clothes, the animal print slippers, the blubber hanging out of the too-small shirt.  Add in lots of bad hair dye  jobs, facial piercings, and cheap tattoos that look as if they got them in prison from their lesbian cellmate with a Bic pen and a sharpened spoon stolen from the kitchen.

I never play unattractive characters, but, then again, I adhere to a traditioinalist school, where beauty is associated with virtue and ugliness with vice. Of course, the Devil can appear in a fair form if he wishes.

Quote from: I on January 02, 2025, 02:06:55 AM

Quote from: SHARK on January 01, 2025, 09:44:20 PM

Quote from: Brad on January 18, 2024, 03:01:51 PMI see enough fat, ugly broads whenever I go to Walmart, why would I want to play one in a fantasy game?

Greetings!

Whenever I step inside a Walmart, I always laugh, as I feel like I have stepped into some crazy, human zoo!

So many people I see there are mind-numbingly gross and ugly. *Especially* the women. I quietly laugh hysterically, as so many of these gross, women Hogbeasts wear see-through pajamas, or too-tight, way-too small shirts that only cover half their torse, so that their rolls of bellyfat are jiggling openly for all to see!

And oftentimes, so many women wear brightly coloured, furry animal slippers!

In every aisle, there is yet some new horrific trainwreck to assault a person's eyes.

*Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

LOL, every Wal-Mart around the country must be the same.  It's like this in every one I've ever been in.  The too-tight clothes, the animal print slippers, the blubber hanging out of the too-small shirt.  Add in lots of bad hair dye  jobs, facial piercings, and cheap tattoos that look as if they got them in prison from their lesbian cellmate with a Bic pen and a sharpened spoon stolen from the kitchen.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Isn't that just boggling how so many people--again, especially the women--that you see in Walmart look like that? I've been into Walmarts in a number of states, west of the the Mississippi, and the women at Walmart. Yeah, they are absolute fugly Hogbeasts. The men can be terrible looking too, but they tend to be more normal looking.

I often use such descriptions and depictions for NPC's in my campaign. The Players always roll hysterically at the descriptions and mannerisms. They say that I hugely increase the realism and believability of the campaign with my NPC portrayals. They say they SO REAL! *laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 01, 2025, 09:44:20 PM

Quote from: Brad on January 18, 2024, 03:01:51 PMI see enough fat, ugly broads whenever I go to Walmart, why would I want to play one in a fantasy game?

Greetings!

Whenever I step inside a Walmart, I always laugh, as I feel like I have stepped into some crazy, human zoo!

So many people I see there are mind-numbingly gross and ugly. *Especially* the women. I quietly laugh hysterically, as so many of these gross, women Hogbeasts wear see-through pajamas, or too-tight, way-too small shirts that only cover half their torse, so that their rolls of bellyfat are jiggling openly for all to see!

And oftentimes, so many women wear brightly coloured, furry animal slippers!

In every aisle, there is yet some new horrific trainwreck to assault a person's eyes.

*Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

And they each think, they are quite the catch, for some lucky guy out there.  Then they whine online, about "where have all the good men gone?"

Quote from: Man at Arms on January 02, 2025, 02:19:29 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 01, 2025, 09:44:20 PM

Quote from: Brad on January 18, 2024, 03:01:51 PMI see enough fat, ugly broads whenever I go to Walmart, why would I want to play one in a fantasy game?

Greetings!

Whenever I step inside a Walmart, I always laugh, as I feel like I have stepped into some crazy, human zoo!

So many people I see there are mind-numbingly gross and ugly. *Especially* the women. I quietly laugh hysterically, as so many of these gross, women Hogbeasts wear see-through pajamas, or too-tight, way-too small shirts that only cover half their torse, so that their rolls of bellyfat are jiggling openly for all to see!

And oftentimes, so many women wear brightly coloured, furry animal slippers!

In every aisle, there is yet some new horrific trainwreck to assault a person's eyes.

*Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

And they each think, they are quite the catch, for some lucky guy out there.  Then they whine online, about "where have all the good men gone?"

Greetings!

*Laughing* That's right, my friend!

They are constantly searching and hoping to find a weak, Blue-pilled Simp that will acquiesce to the woman's every whim and control. Eventually, pushing him to join her in Polyamoury, or letting her go on "Girl's Trips" to the Caribbean or Africa for a "Fun Vacation". Lots of weak, thirsty cucks will sign on to these women's plans. Somehow, despite all the males giving them attention, these women are frequently lonely, miserable, and always crying and complaining.

More and more men are waking up to the Feminist BS games, and refusing to play. No Marriage, No Children, No Co-Habitation. This growing attitude by men is driving the women absolutely insane! Whaa! Whaa! Whaa!

These terrible women deserve their cats and wine after they have been ran through and hit the Wall. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK