Quote from: KindaMeh on December 26, 2023, 05:52:12 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on December 26, 2023, 05:47:53 PM
I got no problems with people playing any character of any sexuality they want. I just don't want it up in my face. The games I run have very little to do with any sexuality. Because I see that as truly a side issue in my adventure design. It's not a prime motivator.

I don't want anyone's sexuality up in my face. No matter what it is.

All very reasonable positions. Yet again, not talking about you or others like you when talking about the decisions of corporations like WotC to go down a different path. Or when talking about specific parts of the trans movement more broadly who push for that kind of thing.

Kind of get what you're expressing, though. A lot of times folks hear I trend conservative, or take a look at my skin color, outfit, and beard, and assume I support things that I don't. (Such as more authoritarian or overreaching "conservative" policy.) Never fun, that.

I've rarely had a game without sexuality. It's a very central part of human life, so I find it weird to have characters with no sexuality. In my current campaign, the noblewoman fighter went back to her home town - and her mother arranged a courtship with a ranger of an allied house, who has now become an allied NPC. Even if there isn't a romantic subplot, it's normal for some sexuality to be expressed. Heroes like Conan and Aragorn are clear about their sexuality, even if it doesn't impact the adventure. And the harlot subtable is there in AD&D for a reason... :-)

Different tastes for different people, but I've generally found a bit of sexuality or romance adds to the verisimilitude of the setting. Even if not the PCs, NPCs will have marriages and families and so forth.

---

As for LGBT sexuality...  It's also been a part of my games since the late 1990s. I grew up in the cancel culture of the 1980s, when it was common for kids to be beaten up for being gay, and adults to be fired from their jobs and/or ostracized from society. There were no LGBT characters in RPG modules, because of publishing censorship. As I grew up, though, I realized that it's how some people are, and I would have some LGBT PCs and NPCs as a normal aspect of my games.

Quote from: jhkim on December 27, 2023, 03:25:05 AM

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 26, 2023, 05:52:12 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on December 26, 2023, 05:47:53 PM
I got no problems with people playing any character of any sexuality they want. I just don't want it up in my face. The games I run have very little to do with any sexuality. Because I see that as truly a side issue in my adventure design. It's not a prime motivator.

I don't want anyone's sexuality up in my face. No matter what it is.

All very reasonable positions. Yet again, not talking about you or others like you when talking about the decisions of corporations like WotC to go down a different path. Or when talking about specific parts of the trans movement more broadly who push for that kind of thing.

Kind of get what you're expressing, though. A lot of times folks hear I trend conservative, or take a look at my skin color, outfit, and beard, and assume I support things that I don't. (Such as more authoritarian or overreaching "conservative" policy.) Never fun, that.

I've rarely had a game without sexuality. It's a very central part of human life, so I find it weird to have characters with no sexuality.

God, I hate this argument. In this thread, and on this topic, we're talking about a politicized, activist form of "sexuality" that wants to "Smash the cishet patriarchal systems of oppression" by making everything gay and lame.

Quote from: jhkim on December 27, 2023, 03:25:05 AM

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 26, 2023, 05:52:12 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on December 26, 2023, 05:47:53 PM
I got no problems with people playing any character of any sexuality they want. I just don't want it up in my face. The games I run have very little to do with any sexuality. Because I see that as truly a side issue in my adventure design. It's not a prime motivator.

I don't want anyone's sexuality up in my face. No matter what it is.

All very reasonable positions. Yet again, not talking about you or others like you when talking about the decisions of corporations like WotC to go down a different path. Or when talking about specific parts of the trans movement more broadly who push for that kind of thing.

Kind of get what you're expressing, though. A lot of times folks hear I trend conservative, or take a look at my skin color, outfit, and beard, and assume I support things that I don't. (Such as more authoritarian or overreaching "conservative" policy.) Never fun, that.

I've rarely had a game without sexuality. It's a very central part of human life, so I find it weird to have characters with no sexuality. In my current campaign, the noblewoman fighter went back to her home town - and her mother arranged a courtship with a ranger of an allied house, who has now become an allied NPC. Even if there isn't a romantic subplot, it's normal for some sexuality to be expressed. Heroes like Conan and Aragorn are clear about their sexuality, even if it doesn't impact the adventure. And the harlot subtable is there in AD&D for a reason... :-)

Different tastes for different people, but I've generally found a bit of sexuality or romance adds to the verisimilitude of the setting. Even if not the PCs, NPCs will have marriages and families and so forth.

---

As for LGBT sexuality...  It's also been a part of my games since the late 1990s. I grew up in the cancel culture of the 1980s, when it was common for kids to be beaten up for being gay, and adults to be fired from their jobs and/or ostracized from society. There were no LGBT characters in RPG modules, because of publishing censorship. As I grew up, though, I realized that it's how some people are, and I would have some LGBT PCs and NPCs as a normal aspect of my games.

Of course it's the leftoid that can't stop thinking with his dick....

Quote from: BadApple on December 27, 2023, 04:34:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 27, 2023, 03:25:05 AM

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 26, 2023, 05:52:12 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on December 26, 2023, 05:47:53 PM
I got no problems with people playing any character of any sexuality they want. I just don't want it up in my face. The games I run have very little to do with any sexuality. Because I see that as truly a side issue in my adventure design. It's not a prime motivator.

I don't want anyone's sexuality up in my face. No matter what it is.

All very reasonable positions. Yet again, not talking about you or others like you when talking about the decisions of corporations like WotC to go down a different path. Or when talking about specific parts of the trans movement more broadly who push for that kind of thing.

Kind of get what you're expressing, though. A lot of times folks hear I trend conservative, or take a look at my skin color, outfit, and beard, and assume I support things that I don't. (Such as more authoritarian or overreaching "conservative" policy.) Never fun, that.

I've rarely had a game without sexuality. It's a very central part of human life, so I find it weird to have characters with no sexuality. In my current campaign, the noblewoman fighter went back to her home town - and her mother arranged a courtship with a ranger of an allied house, who has now become an allied NPC. Even if there isn't a romantic subplot, it's normal for some sexuality to be expressed. Heroes like Conan and Aragorn are clear about their sexuality, even if it doesn't impact the adventure. And the harlot subtable is there in AD&D for a reason... :-)

Different tastes for different people, but I've generally found a bit of sexuality or romance adds to the verisimilitude of the setting. Even if not the PCs, NPCs will have marriages and families and so forth.

---

As for LGBT sexuality...  It's also been a part of my games since the late 1990s. I grew up in the cancel culture of the 1980s, when it was common for kids to be beaten up for being gay, and adults to be fired from their jobs and/or ostracized from society. There were no LGBT characters in RPG modules, because of publishing censorship. As I grew up, though, I realized that it's how some people are, and I would have some LGBT PCs and NPCs as a normal aspect of my games.

Of course it's the leftoid that can't stop thinking with his dick....

It's Adam Koebel syndrome.  A lot of lefty type DM's go for story because they can't run a game of combat to save their purple hair dye collection.  And then when you see it online, oh the cringe, its painful to watch.  That video below is the cringe, but frankly his map making ability creeped me out the most, dude buy dungeonfog or dungeondraft anything but that shit you put up.

Common sense, if you have someone who wants sexy time during play in town, let them role, and state she's interested perhaps a date and let it go at that.  If the player wants to push, now we get to have fun in a medieval fantasy setting.  Warn them about possible consequences and let the moron go ahead.  You don't have to narrate anything from that point on.  Congratulations you have to marry the woman and support her, the father made sure the guards have locked the town down - what do you do or the possible STD.  It's a waste of fucking time, it takes away from other players game time and causes more issues than its worth in the short, mid and long run.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 26, 2023, 04:58:37 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on December 26, 2023, 04:45:57 PM
I'm not advocating transition be for anyone but myself. It's a difficult life choice that shouldn't be taken lightly. An adult choice.

I don't support transition for children. Regardless of aspects of transition that would be made easier starting before puberty would be. It's not something a child can truly process.

Good for you. But we're talking about the trans activist community who do.

https://opa.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/2023-08/gender-affirming-care-young-people.pdf

Not only the trans activist community: an entire US political party, the federal government they control, academia, hollywood, mainstream media, teachers' unions, and many states with extremist governors, together are a Goliath intent on forcing this abuse on our children.

Quote from: BadApple on December 26, 2023, 06:31:18 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on December 26, 2023, 05:47:53 PM
I have enough issues allowing a trans character to exist within my fiction. I don't want to play them in my gaming. It cuts too close to real life. And I play RPGs to escape.

I don't want anyone bringing their political agenda to my table. I just want to run games and escape the real world while I am doing so.

I got no problems with people playing any character of any sexuality they want. I just don't want it up in my face. The games I run have very little to do with any sexuality. Because I see that as truly a side issue in my adventure design. It's not a prime motivator.

I don't want anyone's sexuality up in my face. No matter what it is.

So we have common ground.  We have some differences.  That's ok.  We aren't at cross purposes as far as I can see from here. 

Let's make a deal, I won't assume that the activists speak for you and others and you don't take our frustrations with the activist personally.

See, this is great!  Darrin out of nowhere said, "That's it!  I'm done here!" but stayed around to have a meaningful conversation, and we learn about each other and grow when we can have differences, but discuss them maturely.  I'm glad that this happened.  And this is why I love the RPG site.  On other "forums", you're labeled a bigot by fascist admins and all discussion is shut down because you challenged the narrative with accursed independent thinking.  Real, open discussion is how we can learn from each other, and grow, whichever side we ar from.  Once that happens, people can see that we're all not so different.

I also used the Ignore list to block out the worst of the hatemongering.

I have no issue with rational discussion. But when it devolves into people slinging hate left and right, I'm so done with that.

Being trans isn't something I would wish on anybody. It's too painful, has too much risk of suicide. It's not a choice I made for myself. It was a realization of a condition that had been an active issue since childhood. It wasn't a phase to get over. It's not something I could just dismiss. It needs proper treatment. And for me, proper treatment is the transition process. No matter how difficult that is.

My end goal is to be comfortable in my own body. Something I am not now.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 27, 2023, 03:48:22 AM
God, I hate this argument. In this thread, and on this topic, we're talking about a politicized, activist form of "sexuality" that wants to "Smash the cishet patriarchal systems of oppression" by making everything gay and lame.

This is a variation of the same non-argument I see in comics circles when someone objects to super hero comics being turned into soap boxes for the writer to lecture us about their politics or characters being made gay and that becoming the entirety of their character from then on.  This is portrayed as people objecting to politics in some vague sense or any portrayal of non-heterosexual chaaracters.  It ignores what people are actually saying.  It pretends that people are saying that somehow be presented without sexuality at all when people are really jusy saying that they don't want a very activist version of sexuality to be shoe-horned into everything or to be beaten over the head with it constantly.  Most of the time, it doesn't actually mean anything or have any real significance beyond a character who is not heterosexual existing.  Posting that same Captain America cover as every other disingenuous weasel posts does not prove they were.  It's proves that you are regurgitating the same cherry-picked bullshit as the rest. 

There's also that tired, disingenuous bullshit about one table in one version of the DMG somehow proving that the game was always about sexuality.  Comics were always political.  Bullshit.  No, they weren't.  Not in the same way they are now.  Not even close. 

I grew up in a household that was very right-wing. My grandmother was a member of the John Birch Society, and about as racist as one could get. It was really soul-crushing to be in that environment and to be subject to her continual abuse for having a different opinion.

Sexuality I was always taught should be kept in the bedroom. Private. It makes me uncomfortable to have it displayed in public. This is not people in sexy clothing. But the actual sex acts. I was taught they were none of my business. And frankly, I don't want them to be. And honestly, porn movies have always made me uncomfortable.

I don't play games to be made uncomfortable. I don't run games to be made uncomfortable. My solution to sex acts in a game is always to fade to black. Out of sight, out of mind.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 27, 2023, 07:48:19 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 27, 2023, 03:48:22 AM
God, I hate this argument. In this thread, and on this topic, we're talking about a politicized, activist form of "sexuality" that wants to "Smash the cishet patriarchal systems of oppression" by making everything gay and lame.

This is a variation of the same non-argument I see in comics circles when someone objects to super hero comics being turned into soap boxes for the writer to lecture us about their politics or characters being made gay and that becoming the entirety of their character from then on.  This is portrayed as people objecting to politics in some vague sense or any portrayal of non-heterosexual chaaracters.  It ignores what people are actually saying.  It pretends that people are saying that somehow be presented without sexuality at all when people are really jusy saying that they don't want a very activist version of sexuality to be shoe-horned into everything or to be beaten over the head with it constantly.  Most of the time, it doesn't actually mean anything or have any real significance beyond a character who is not heterosexual existing.  Posting that same Captain America cover as every other disingenuous weasel posts does not prove they were.  It's proves that you are regurgitating the same cherry-picked bullshit as the rest. 

There's also that tired, disingenuous bullshit about one table in one version of the DMG somehow proving that the game was always about sexuality.  Comics were always political.  Bullshit.  No, they weren't.  Not in the same way they are now.  Not even close.

Well, guys, you must have missed the thread earlier where I made a startling discovery.  Did you know that jhkim is an AI?  Very sophisticated, very realistic, but limited by his programing.  Look at any response in any thread with controversy in it.  He picks a random post that is slightly off-topic (sexuality in D&D as opposed to trans-gamers as D&D's future), contradicts a premise that was never made, then appeals to his table and "gaming since..." whenever as evidence that his single, personal (and unverifiable) anecdote is a negative example that counteracts all of the possible positive examples you might provide.  Apparently he was programmed with deductive reasoning only, and cannot handle the concept that a single negative does not disprove a trend.  Technology nowadays is amazing, isn't it...

Quote from: Cathode Ray on December 27, 2023, 06:06:47 AM

See, this is great!  Darrin out of nowhere said, "That's it!  I'm done here!" but stayed around to have a meaningful conversation, and we learn about each other and grow when we can have differences, but discuss them maturely.  I'm glad that this happened.  And this is why I love the RPG site.  On other "forums", you're labeled a bigot by fascist admins and all discussion is shut down because you challenged the narrative with accursed independent thinking.  Real, open discussion is how we can learn from each other, and grow, whichever side we ar from.  Once that happens, people can see that we're all not so different.

It is nice to see a contentious issues discussed like adults. We don't have to agree with each other about everything, we just need to respect boundaries. Not so common with people prone to throw accusations and insults around like old cigarette butts. I think Internet also makes courtesy more difficult for everyone.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on December 27, 2023, 09:22:31 AM
I don't play games to be made uncomfortable. I don't run games to be made uncomfortable. My solution to sex acts in a game is always to fade to black. Out of sight, out of mind.

I totally agree there.  Also, I agree there are perverse people who want to be explicit in their games and play with groups that do.  IF they want  to do that, it's not for me, but live and let live.  Just as long as everyone playing's fine with that.  MY RPG, Radical High, is about teen life in the 80s, and romance is a big part of that.  But in the modules and scenarios, the content is never more explicit that going on dates and kissing.  It's all kept at a wholesome PG level, because that's how I want to play my own RH campaigns, and I also want people who are kind enough to play my system or purchase my RPG to feel comfortable, too.  Nothing is keeping people who own my game (or any RPG) from playing it as a raunchy sex comedy, or erotic journey, if that's what they want.  But those who don't want that kind of material in their games won't miss out on anything in my game by taking that route.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on December 27, 2023, 09:22:31 AM
I grew up in a household that was very right-wing. My grandmother was a member of the John Birch Society, and about as racist as one could get. It was really soul-crushing to be in that environment and to be subject to her continual abuse for having a different opinion.

Sexuality I was always taught should be kept in the bedroom. Private. It makes me uncomfortable to have it displayed in public. This is not people in sexy clothing. But the actual sex acts. I was taught they were none of my business. And frankly, I don't want them to be. And honestly, porn movies have always made me uncomfortable.

I don't play games to be made uncomfortable. I don't run games to be made uncomfortable. My solution to sex acts in a game is always to fade to black. Out of sight, out of mind.

I'm a firm believer in consent but so many people forget that observers are participants too.  There are things that make me uncomfortable that I can deal with under the right conditions and some that I don't want anything to do with at all.  None of them are things I think should be open to the general public. 

I use the MPAA ratings standards for how I run games.  I don't do anything more than PG in a public setting and nothing more than PG-13 (with the exception of swear words, I'm a sailor by profession) in home games.

If someone wanted to run a spicy rated-R game, I'm not likely to join but I'm not judging them for doing that.  I would only ask that they find a venue that keeps it away from kids.

Quote from: squirewaldo on December 27, 2023, 11:13:10 AM
It is nice to see a contentious issues discussed like adults. We don't have to agree with each other about everything, we just need to respect boundaries. Not so common with people prone to throw accusations and insults around like old cigarette butts. I think Internet also makes courtesy more difficult for everyone.

Honestly, rule zero for the internet should be "Your communication skills suck so speak and read carefully.  Even you, Mr. English major."

I know I'm not always the best at understanding others or conveying my own thoughts.

At this point this thread has meandered all over the place, its serving no function other than to take up the top slot on the forum, lock it down.

Quote from: jhkim on December 27, 2023, 03:25:05 AM
Different tastes for different people, but I've generally found a bit of sexuality or romance adds to the verisimilitude of the setting. Even if not the PCs, NPCs will have marriages and families and so forth.

If you cannot see a distinction between "this is NPC A, who is married to NPC B" and "this is NPC A, here is her two-paragraph monologue about how she cut off her boobs that she is telling the party, who she just met", then I don't much know what to tell you.  There's a difference between sex existing in the world and the author's cause du jour being pushed front and center in an encounter.  Of course NPCs have private lives going on, and that includes whatever percentage of people having weird bedroom shit happening, but there's no reason for that facet to get a spotlight pointed to it in the middle of a game.

And before you say, "Well I've never seen...", my example up there is from an actual Pathfinder adventure where the party encounters a dwarf with chest surgery scars who makes reference to them in conversation with the party.  Never mind that: A: Getting your chest carved up in a setting with no established history of surgical practice and that has magical polymorphing that is safe and inexpensive is insane, and B: Going around pointing out the proof that you've had surgery to people undermines the goal of passing as the sex you had that surgery to pass as.  If the dwarf was just going about their business and the party just believed the dwarf was male (a scenario that the dwarf should probably prefer), the writer and company couldn't say, "LOOK KIDS, IT'S A TRANS!"

Same for D&D's new paladin princess with the assburgers.  Would there be autistic people in the setting?  I'm sure there are.  Is there any point whatsoever to highlight the fact for this particular NPC aside from trying to look good on twitter and churn out some ass-patting news articles on Gawker sites?  No.

Quote from: BadApple on December 27, 2023, 12:09:58 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on December 27, 2023, 11:13:10 AM
It is nice to see a contentious issues discussed like adults. We don't have to agree with each other about everything, we just need to respect boundaries. Not so common with people prone to throw accusations and insults around like old cigarette butts. I think Internet also makes courtesy more difficult for everyone.

Honestly, rule zero for the internet should be "Your communication skills suck so speak and read carefully.  Even you, Mr. English major."

I know I'm not always the best at understanding others or conveying my own thoughts.

Yeah, I wish I could be better myself. Sometimes I blurt out something that makes no sense, or is just unhelpful. In person, you can explain and think a bit. But the Internet is fast and forever.