Quote from: jhkim on December 02, 2023, 09:57:31 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 02, 2023, 07:57:37 PM
I think market for gay tieflings is severly overrepresented because rainbow internet tumblr artists just love painting them, so they are visually all over the place.
But in actual gaming horny tiefling bard is still losing to straight human warrior. Which does not mean we need to exclude any of them - but making actions like BG3 producers whining that players choose normie white human fighter - are kinda clearly against biggest chunk of gamer population.

If you try to grew your industry abandoning previous fans... well you may end with neither old or new ones.

My understanding is that BG3 is a massive success financially, as the most popular release of the year in its category. I don't play any video games, so I'm not endorsing it, but it seems to be selling quite well.

Are you stupid?  His point was that the highly successful BG3 game has, according to its own statistics, the vast majority of its players roll up white-bread human warriors (so much so that the developers complained publicly that no one was using lots of the options)... which shows the popularity of non-binary tieflings in RPGs like 5e is overblown and artificially inflated by social media. 

Do you just drop in, glance at a topic, and then contradict the last statement you read, or do you actually read all the posts to get context?  Folks, I've just discovered that jhkim is an AI!

Quote from: jhkim on December 02, 2023, 09:57:31 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 02, 2023, 07:57:37 PM
I think market for gay tieflings is severly overrepresented because rainbow internet tumblr artists just love painting them, so they are visually all over the place.
But in actual gaming horny tiefling bard is still losing to straight human warrior. Which does not mean we need to exclude any of them - but making actions like BG3 producers whining that players choose normie white human fighter - are kinda clearly against biggest chunk of gamer population.

If you try to grew your industry abandoning previous fans... well you may end with neither old or new ones.

My understanding is that BG3 is a massive success financially, as the most popular release of the year in its category. I don't play any video games, so I'm not endorsing it, but it seems to be selling quite well.

Several video games have been sold with the queer content hidden and only discoverable if you try to pursue various types of relationships.  Jade Empire and Stardew Valley are a couple of examples.  BG3 does this as well, though a couple of the characters strongly hint at it more than other games I've seen.  Most players will miss it.  If they had pushed it forward more, I think sales would have been lower.

The inclusion of sexual trysts in BG3 baffles me altogether.  "We are all slowly dying of brain worms and time is of the essence, let's slow down and have sexy time."  Even as a game experience, it doesn't add anything to the immersion but rather feels like a tacky add on.

The reason we know about the "alternate relationships" available in BG3 is that the publishers advertised in a way that teased the possibility and some hard core gamers dug it out.

Quote from: BadApple on December 03, 2023, 01:33:22 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 02, 2023, 09:57:31 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 02, 2023, 07:57:37 PM
I think market for gay tieflings is severly overrepresented because rainbow internet tumblr artists just love painting them, so they are visually all over the place.
But in actual gaming horny tiefling bard is still losing to straight human warrior. Which does not mean we need to exclude any of them - but making actions like BG3 producers whining that players choose normie white human fighter - are kinda clearly against biggest chunk of gamer population.

If you try to grew your industry abandoning previous fans... well you may end with neither old or new ones.

My understanding is that BG3 is a massive success financially, as the most popular release of the year in its category. I don't play any video games, so I'm not endorsing it, but it seems to be selling quite well.

Several video games have been sold with the queer content hidden and only discoverable if you try to pursue various types of relationships.  Jade Empire and Stardew Valley are a couple of examples.  BG3 does this as well, though a couple of the characters strongly hint at it more than other games I've seen.  Most players will miss it.  If they had pushed it forward more, I think sales would have been lower.

The inclusion of sexual trysts in BG3 baffles me altogether.  "We are all slowly dying of brain worms and time is of the essence, let's slow down and have sexy time."  Even as a game experience, it doesn't add anything to the immersion but rather feels like a tacky add on.

The reason we know about the "alternate relationships" available in BG3 is that the publishers advertised in a way that teased the possibility and some hard core gamers dug it out.

Yeah, in general I think BG3 is one of the best games I've ever played, at least recent years. The romance stuff is extremely poorly executed IMO. I somehow, without ever meaning to, suddenly got propositioned by one of the male companions. I really don't care either way, but it was so poorly done, happened very fast without me actually pursuing any romantic relationships at all, and just focusing on the plot and moving ahead with the main quest.

They just threw it in my face with no build up. It was especially jarring as I feel so much of the other content is extremely well made. I think BG3 if not saved, but at least boosted D&D immensely. Unfortunately...

Quote from: jhkim on December 02, 2023, 09:57:31 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 02, 2023, 07:57:37 PM
I think market for gay tieflings is severly overrepresented because rainbow internet tumblr artists just love painting them, so they are visually all over the place.
But in actual gaming horny tiefling bard is still losing to straight human warrior. Which does not mean we need to exclude any of them - but making actions like BG3 producers whining that players choose normie white human fighter - are kinda clearly against biggest chunk of gamer population.

If you try to grew your industry abandoning previous fans... well you may end with neither old or new ones.

My understanding is that BG3 is a massive success financially, as the most popular release of the year in its category. I don't play any video games, so I'm not endorsing it, but it seems to be selling quite well.

From what I have seen there isnt all that many "gay tiefling" art out there compared to the straight or unknown pref ones.

Part of the problem is that you have as usual certain factions pusing things and the actual normal part of the community wishing theyd crawl back under whatever rock they came from.

Quote from: Omega on December 10, 2023, 04:32:13 AM
From what I have seen there isnt all that many "gay tiefling" art out there compared to the straight or unknown pref ones.

I'm on several of the larger FB groups for D&D and Pathfinder. Most of the tiefling art is the gay output of one artist in particular. The work is popular and well-received, the main criticism being that some of the pieces look more like pinups than a real fantasy RPG scene.

Quote from: pawsplay on December 11, 2023, 06:54:23 PM

Quote from: Omega on December 10, 2023, 04:32:13 AM
From what I have seen there isnt all that many "gay tiefling" art out there compared to the straight or unknown pref ones.

I'm on several of the larger FB groups for D&D and Pathfinder. Most of the tiefling art is the gay output of one artist in particular. The work is popular and well-received, the main criticism being that some of the pieces look more like pinups than a real fantasy RPG scene.

If you look at the #dnd hashtag on X, it's full of non-human art of supposed characters, though my impression is that most of these have never actually been played; it's just like, fanfiction or something. There's fucktons of tieflings, orcs, goblins, kobolds, furries of various types etc. Anything that moves these people away from both humanity and the traditional fantasy races.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 13, 2023, 03:29:25 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on December 11, 2023, 06:54:23 PM

Quote from: Omega on December 10, 2023, 04:32:13 AM
From what I have seen there isnt all that many "gay tiefling" art out there compared to the straight or unknown pref ones.

I'm on several of the larger FB groups for D&D and Pathfinder. Most of the tiefling art is the gay output of one artist in particular. The work is popular and well-received, the main criticism being that some of the pieces look more like pinups than a real fantasy RPG scene.

If you look at the #dnd hashtag on X, it's full of non-human art of supposed characters, though my impression is that most of these have never actually been played; it's just like, fanfiction or something. There's fucktons of tieflings, orcs, goblins, kobolds, furries of various types etc. Anything that moves these people away from both humanity and the traditional fantasy races.

And theres been elves, halflings and halfelves.
For fucks sake Monard was playing freaking BALROG at one point. Someone else was a VAMPIRE, and so on. From what they have described this is old hat even at the get-go.

And its just as old and tired an argument as the morons tho used to bitch about people playing humans.

To both sides of this incessant stupid I say Fuck Off! I'll play a human whenever I fucking want (which is like 80% of my PCs) and I'll play a Gnoll if I fucking feel like it.

Jesus Christ you people bitch piss and moan about how intolerant the other side is and then turn around and are just as intolerant.

Now I'm going back to playing my fucking human in a God Damn Harengon Game.

Quote from: Omega on December 13, 2023, 07:02:11 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 13, 2023, 03:29:25 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on December 11, 2023, 06:54:23 PM

Quote from: Omega on December 10, 2023, 04:32:13 AM
From what I have seen there isnt all that many "gay tiefling" art out there compared to the straight or unknown pref ones.

I'm on several of the larger FB groups for D&D and Pathfinder. Most of the tiefling art is the gay output of one artist in particular. The work is popular and well-received, the main criticism being that some of the pieces look more like pinups than a real fantasy RPG scene.

If you look at the #dnd hashtag on X, it's full of non-human art of supposed characters, though my impression is that most of these have never actually been played; it's just like, fanfiction or something. There's fucktons of tieflings, orcs, goblins, kobolds, furries of various types etc. Anything that moves these people away from both humanity and the traditional fantasy races.

And theres been elves, halflings and halfelves.
For fucks sake Monard was playing freaking BALROG at one point. Someone else was a VAMPIRE, and so on. From what they have described this is old hat even at the get-go.

And its just as old and tired an argument as the morons tho used to bitch about people playing humans.

To both sides of this incessant stupid I say Fuck Off! I'll play a human whenever I fucking want (which is like 80% of my PCs) and I'll play a Gnoll if I fucking feel like it.

Jesus Christ you people bitch piss and moan about how intolerant the other side is and then turn around and are just as intolerant.

Now I'm going back to playing my fucking human in a God Damn Harengon Game.

Hear hear! Not just the general point, but being the sole human in a game featuring multiple Harengon PCs (and playing humans and occasionally half-humans in pretty much everything).

The lesson I take from it all is that the main reason people don't play humans in 5e is largely the same reason they didn't in AD&D... human racial features (or the lack thereof) make them mechanically disadvantaged compared to other available races.

Level caps were a crap balance mechanic few campaigns would ever reach back then, +1 to all attributes (when a +2 is needed to actually change the modifier; with an array it only matters for half the attributes, for rolled it might matter to none) when other races give +2 to class critical attributes and other widgets on top is the reason now.

For some, the desire to play a human is sufficient to make taking the disadvantage compared to other PCs, but in general players always gravitate towards better mechanical options when they're apparent and then justify it with RP after the fact.

Ironically, 4E was the only edition of D&D (outside of the race as class editions) that ever made humans good enough to be a first choice for race. When running or playing in that it was the norm to see all human parties (even with the weirder races available) because human was pretty much THE best race option for every class.

Quote from: Omega on December 13, 2023, 07:02:11 AM
...
And theres been elves, halflings and halfelves.
For fucks sake Monard was playing freaking BALROG at one point. Someone else was a VAMPIRE, and so on. From what they have described this is old hat even at the get-go.

And its just as old and tired an argument as the morons tho used to bitch about people playing humans.

....

It is.

People continually bringing up Gygax's early OD&D monster PC's is old and tired. Because it refutes nothing.

Gygax had a lot to say about those experiences on p.21 of the AD&D DMG: 'The Monster as a player character'

If you are going to invoke that fact that he allowed monster PC's in his early games; then you have to acknowledge the opinion he formed of monster PC's based on those early experiences.

Let me give you the cliff notes- The 2nd sentence in paragraph six sums it all up:

"The considered opinion of this writer is that such characters are not beneficial to the game and should be excluded."


This is quite straightforward: Monster PC races were a bad idea back then, and they are still a bad idea almost 50 years later.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 13, 2023, 04:54:28 PM
This is quite straightforward: Monster PC races were a bad idea back then, and they are still a bad idea almost 50 years later.

Yeah, amazing isn't it? They tried things, decided it didn't work so well, and said that. But since Gygax was a WHITE MALE (whatever that even means anymore...white presenting male?) his opinion is obviously total bullshit and it patently absurd and wrong, so gay tieflings it is. God forbid anyone actually want to play a game normally instead of injecting pure stupidity at all possible times.

Quote from: Omega on December 13, 2023, 07:02:11 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 13, 2023, 03:29:25 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on December 11, 2023, 06:54:23 PM

Quote from: Omega on December 10, 2023, 04:32:13 AM
From what I have seen there isnt all that many "gay tiefling" art out there compared to the straight or unknown pref ones.

I'm on several of the larger FB groups for D&D and Pathfinder. Most of the tiefling art is the gay output of one artist in particular. The work is popular and well-received, the main criticism being that some of the pieces look more like pinups than a real fantasy RPG scene.

If you look at the #dnd hashtag on X, it's full of non-human art of supposed characters, though my impression is that most of these have never actually been played; it's just like, fanfiction or something. There's fucktons of tieflings, orcs, goblins, kobolds, furries of various types etc. Anything that moves these people away from both humanity and the traditional fantasy races.

And theres been elves, halflings and halfelves.
For fucks sake Monard was playing freaking BALROG at one point. Someone else was a VAMPIRE, and so on. From what they have described this is old hat even at the get-go.

And its just as old and tired an argument as the morons tho used to bitch about people playing humans.

To both sides of this incessant stupid I say Fuck Off! I'll play a human whenever I fucking want (which is like 80% of my PCs) and I'll play a Gnoll if I fucking feel like it.

Jesus Christ you people bitch piss and moan about how intolerant the other side is and then turn around and are just as intolerant.

Now I'm going back to playing my fucking human in a God Damn Harengon Game.

The difference is that the OG gamers (or indeed any gamers between then and around 2014) weren't playing these non-humans as a specific ideological act of anti-humanism or of "queering D&D".

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 13, 2023, 10:12:43 AM

Quote from: Omega on December 13, 2023, 07:02:11 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 13, 2023, 03:29:25 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on December 11, 2023, 06:54:23 PM

Quote from: Omega on December 10, 2023, 04:32:13 AM
From what I have seen there isnt all that many "gay tiefling" art out there compared to the straight or unknown pref ones.

I'm on several of the larger FB groups for D&D and Pathfinder. Most of the tiefling art is the gay output of one artist in particular. The work is popular and well-received, the main criticism being that some of the pieces look more like pinups than a real fantasy RPG scene.

If you look at the #dnd hashtag on X, it's full of non-human art of supposed characters, though my impression is that most of these have never actually been played; it's just like, fanfiction or something. There's fucktons of tieflings, orcs, goblins, kobolds, furries of various types etc. Anything that moves these people away from both humanity and the traditional fantasy races.

And theres been elves, halflings and halfelves.
For fucks sake Monard was playing freaking BALROG at one point. Someone else was a VAMPIRE, and so on. From what they have described this is old hat even at the get-go.

And its just as old and tired an argument as the morons tho used to bitch about people playing humans.

To both sides of this incessant stupid I say Fuck Off! I'll play a human whenever I fucking want (which is like 80% of my PCs) and I'll play a Gnoll if I fucking feel like it.

Jesus Christ you people bitch piss and moan about how intolerant the other side is and then turn around and are just as intolerant.

Now I'm going back to playing my fucking human in a God Damn Harengon Game.

Hear hear! Not just the general point, but being the sole human in a game featuring multiple Harengon PCs (and playing humans and occasionally half-humans in pretty much everything).

The lesson I take from it all is that the main reason people don't play humans in 5e is largely the same reason they didn't in AD&D... human racial features (or the lack thereof) make them mechanically disadvantaged compared to other available races.

Except that, very much to WotC's chagrin, and as an example that leftist ideologues on social media don't actually "represent" anyone other than themselves, polls have consistently shown that the most popular gender/race/class combo has for years been "Male Human Cleric".

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 14, 2023, 05:27:55 AM
Except that, very much to WotC's chagrin, and as an example that leftist ideologues on social media don't actually "represent" anyone other than themselves, polls have consistently shown that the most popular gender/race/class combo has for years been "Male Human Cleric".

I'd love to see where you found the specifics on the sex of characters and that cleric was most popular; as everything I've found is that Human Fighter is the most popular by a wide margin.

Are you perhaps thinking of BG3 numbers (I remember a comment registering annoyance that despite having all their options available, most players rolled up straight white men)?

Regardless, I am of course speaking anecdotally of a fairly conservative batch of gamers, but outside of myself, playing weird races is extremely common, but the considerations are almost universally mechanical rather than trying to be a furry or represent anything other than being a character option with some mechanical advantage they want their PC to have.

If humans provided better mechanical advantages, you'd see almost all humans among the players I'm familiar with. The lesson for me in my own system design being to give the races I want to be widely played solid mechanical advantages over the other races rather than outright banning them.

Banning makes it a forbidden fruit that certain player types will keep pushing for. Making the option available, but inferior to a baseline human means you almost never see them and no one asks you if you can play them.

ETA: also important to remember is that "most popular" in a group of many options doesn't mean a majority.

Indeed, per that one fivethirtyeight.com poll; Human Fighter is far and away the most popular combo (60% higher than the next highest combo), but overall accounts for less than 5% of PCs.

Humans overall were only 25% of PCs and human/elf/dwarf/halfling combined is only slightly over 50% (reaching about 65% if you also add half-elves).

Dragonborn and Tieflings are both more popular than Halflings (to say nothing of the gnome... you're more likely to find a human fighter than any flavor of gnome).

Essentially, "most popular" on its own with so many potential combos says very little without the actual numbers.

"Human Fighter is the most popular race/class combo" and "Human Fighters account for less than 5% of PCs" are both true statements and bringing up one without the other for context is just trying to push an agenda.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 13, 2023, 04:54:28 PM
This is quite straightforward: Monster PC races were a bad idea back then, and they are still a bad idea almost 50 years later.

One of the 'players played monsters' thing also has to do with what amounts to pvp play, with one player effectively acting as a Co-DM, playing an antagonist role.  I don't think this is what Gary was talking about here, but it was a thing that happened and generally isn't the same as a monster PC would be today.

In OD&D, there's a discussion that pretty much anything can be a player character, as long as it starts weak and gets stronger.  This is not how a monster PC normally works- it usually starts as a monster and then gains class levels, which is a totally different thing.

Finally, there's the lack of distinction between a monster PC and a PC with some monstrous features.  The genderqueer tiefling that looks a lot like a succubus isn't a succubus.  It has darkvision and a couple weak magical powers that are well within the purview of PCs.  Is this creature being played as a deliberate act of rebellion against the human form, does it work really well within the campaign world, is the player trying super hard to be a unique snowflake... or what?

And I think the conflation of all these things muddies the waters of the discussion, because the critiques are aimed in all different directions.


Should you allow a vampire PC as part of your player's team?  Probably not; there are huge power considerations, vampires are always evil, such a creature will dominate early encounters, etc.  But are any of these on topic as regards, say, Pundit's points?  No, not at all.

I just think this topic tends to spray light in all directions like a prism.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 14, 2023, 05:26:02 AM

Quote from: Omega on December 13, 2023, 07:02:11 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 13, 2023, 03:29:25 AM
If you look at the #dnd hashtag on X, it's full of non-human art of supposed characters, though my impression is that most of these have never actually been played; it's just like, fanfiction or something. There's fucktons of tieflings, orcs, goblins, kobolds, furries of various types etc. Anything that moves these people away from both humanity and the traditional fantasy races.

To both sides of this incessant stupid I say Fuck Off! I'll play a human whenever I fucking want (which is like 80% of my PCs) and I'll play a Gnoll if I fucking feel like it.

Jesus Christ you people bitch piss and moan about how intolerant the other side is and then turn around and are just as intolerant.

The difference is that the OG gamers (or indeed any gamers between then and around 2014) weren't playing these non-humans as a specific ideological act of anti-humanism or of "queering D&D".

Maybe DMs should have a test, and players allowed to play tieflings and half-orcs and such only if they prove they don't have anti-humanist or queering reasons?