QuoteI've been playing RPGs for forty years, and I've hardly sat at a table since high school that didn't have a woman at it. And I'm talking AD&D, D&D, not Vampire. There have always been women in RPGs. It's just that, firstly, they weren't made welcome, and second, when they joined the hobby, they tended to avoid big social spaces where they would be continually subjected to that attitude. Women have always, since the beginning, had a significant presence.

So it's kinda hard to notice this great exclusion in adult circles at least, if as you say significant presence was constant from very beginning.

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 01, 2023, 05:19:25 PM

QuoteI've been playing RPGs for forty years, and I've hardly sat at a table since high school that didn't have a woman at it. And I'm talking AD&D, D&D, not Vampire. There have always been women in RPGs. It's just that, firstly, they weren't made welcome, and second, when they joined the hobby, they tended to avoid big social spaces where they would be continually subjected to that attitude. Women have always, since the beginning, had a significant presence.

So it's kinda hard to notice this great exclusion in adult circles at least, if as you say significant presence was constant from very beginning.

By significant he means about 20% IIRC, that was the number when TSR was runing things.

Even today, with a few exceptions, most RPG spaces/conversations are male dominated, not because we bann women from participating, because they don't want to.

Except of course with 5e that's socially known and VtM that appeals to their libido.

QuoteBy significant he means about 20% IIRC, that was the number when TSR was runing things.

Considering my general experience with old D&D that sounds like naturally predictable numbers, and I'm gonna again repeat claim - numbers grow because different games and settings with more stereotypical female baits were introduced, and that's fine. And of course 5e doing it's FASHION thing and LIFESTYLE thing - but then I could not care less about people going for that.

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 01, 2023, 05:19:25 PM

QuoteI've been playing RPGs for forty years, and I've hardly sat at a table since high school that didn't have a woman at it. And I'm talking AD&D, D&D, not Vampire. There have always been women in RPGs. It's just that, firstly, they weren't made welcome, and second, when they joined the hobby, they tended to avoid big social spaces where they would be continually subjected to that attitude. Women have always, since the beginning, had a significant presence.

So it's kinda hard to notice this great exclusion in adult circles at least, if as you say significant presence was constant from very beginning.

You're confusing a relationship between the fact that I was in some all-male groups as a nine-year-old and the observation that Margaret Weis exists.

QuoteYou're confusing a relationship between the fact that I was in some all-male groups as a nine-year-old and the observation that Margaret Weis exists.

As a nine year old... huh, yes boys n girls holding separate circles at this age is truly prove of deep running sexism in DnD circles.

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 01, 2023, 06:29:55 PM

QuoteYou're confusing a relationship between the fact that I was in some all-male groups as a nine-year-old and the observation that Margaret Weis exists.

As a nine year old... huh, yes boys n girls holding separate circles at this age is truly prove of deep running sexism in DnD circles.

You mustn't hold it against him, only people with the maturity of a nine year old would fall for the woke cult.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 01, 2023, 06:54:40 PM
You mustn't hold it against him, only people with the maturity of a nine year old would fall for the woke cult.

What is a woke cult, and where do they meet? Are there meetings or something?

I think it's interesting that many folks on the left love to crow about minority statistics for playing whatever game or in whatever corporate or societal context. The numbers are never accused of being too high. But certain demographic categories are the sign of the devil, or at least have no positive value, even if they bring in profit. Indeed, if targeting them brings in profit, this is seen as a systemic failure.

Personally, I think it's fine to have whoever is interested be interested, and for different things to appeal to different people in aggregate. Doesn't mean it will always be as financially viable, but hey, you do you. That said, when people start to single out folks preferentially based on ethnicity or identity, or trying to get categories to leave, rather than focusing on making a solid product and letting chips fall where they may, it can be in a sense discriminatory and suboptimal. If the corporate sway is large enough, it can also be something with discriminatory societal impacts, or major impacts within the hobby or subculture in question.

You can look at the steady downward chart of Disney income to see what happens when you start targeting an audience that doesn't exist.  It sure sounds noble to declare that you've made a project to be inclusive of bi-curious Argentinian teen girls with autism, but the narrower the focus, the fewer the customers.  WotC can only put out but so many gay tiefling proms before the well runs dry, because the number of people who'll go and buy a gay tiefling prom adventure solely on the principle of supporting gay tiefling proms is not equal to the number of people who would buy an actual well-written adventure module, and general consumers can actually tell the difference between a well-rounded product with universal appeal and corporate pandering.  Some better than others, but we've reached the point where it's so blatant it's nearly impossible not to notice.

Roleplaying has always been open to everyone.  Like others in the thread have said, the games I've played in have included women, not-straight and non-white players without any issue over the years; nobody who wanted to play has ever been excluded.  Which is why any company that is wise will not aim their marketing so far to one side or another that the normies start avoiding it.  D&D's gargantuan marketshare has let it coast by in recent years, but the company's shedding goodwill by the minute.  I think the market's ripe for upstarts to grab bigger pieces of the pie thanks in large part to WotC behaving like a stereotypical Seattle corporation.

I think you seriously underestimate the market for gay tieflings.

Quote from: pawsplay on December 02, 2023, 12:24:38 AM
I think you seriously underestimate the market for gay tieflings.

Except we have actual book sales figures to back up our estimates that gay forward material isn't selling as well.  Not just RPGs but comics, video games, movies, and more.  Publishers see less units moved for products that push forward LGBQIALMNOP characters and themes.

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 01, 2023, 07:45:09 PM
I think it's interesting that many folks on the left love to crow about minority statistics for playing whatever game or in whatever corporate or societal context.

Sort of.  Their concern over statistical disparities is very selective.  About 80% of the publishing industry is female but no one is wringing their hands about the under-representation of men in the publishing industry.  There is on one claiming that this means that men have been excluded from publishing because of misandry.  About 73% of NBA players are black while only about 17% are white.  No one talking about the need for diversity or proportional representation in the NBA.  Statistical disparities only matter when it suits them.     

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 02, 2023, 04:03:47 AM

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 01, 2023, 07:45:09 PM
I think it's interesting that many folks on the left love to crow about minority statistics for playing whatever game or in whatever corporate or societal context.

Sort of.  Their concern over statistical disparities is very selective.  About 80% of the publishing industry is female but no one is wringing their hands about the under-representation of men in the publishing industry.  There is on one claiming that this means that men have been excluded from publishing because of misandry.  About 73% of NBA players are black while only about 17% are white.  No one talking about the need for diversity or proportional representation in the NBA.  Statistical disparities only matter when it suits them.     

Greetings!

*BOOM*--such a key observation, Yosemitemike!

That is so very true about Leftists. Of course, pointing this fact out to Leftists typically either provokes a response of shrieking, screaming, tears and crying, and or attacking you with an endless litany of slurs and name-calling. Or, they look at you with that wide-eyed, deer-in-the-headlights look, and are rendered speechless. Then, they sulk, and stomp off, still calling you a Nazi, Misogynist, patriarchal tyrant, racist, homophobe, or warmonger. 

I love it though. Such a great observation, sir!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

QuoteI think you seriously underestimate the market for gay tieflings.

I think market for gay tieflings is severly overrepresented because rainbow internet tumblr artists just love painting them, so they are visually all over the place.
But in actual gaming horny tiefling bard is still losing to straight human warrior. Which does not mean we need to exclude any of them - but making actions like BG3 producers whining that players choose normie white human fighter - are kinda clearly against biggest chunk of gamer population.

If you try to grew your industry abandoning previous fans... well you may end with neither old or new ones.

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 02, 2023, 07:57:37 PM
I think market for gay tieflings is severly overrepresented because rainbow internet tumblr artists just love painting them, so they are visually all over the place.
But in actual gaming horny tiefling bard is still losing to straight human warrior. Which does not mean we need to exclude any of them - but making actions like BG3 producers whining that players choose normie white human fighter - are kinda clearly against biggest chunk of gamer population.

If you try to grew your industry abandoning previous fans... well you may end with neither old or new ones.

My understanding is that BG3 is a massive success financially, as the most popular release of the year in its category. I don't play any video games, so I'm not endorsing it, but it seems to be selling quite well.