Quote from: PulpHerb on November 29, 2023, 06:20:58 PM
If he is relying on them to make him the future, I think pawsplay is in for the same rude awakening a lot of evangelicals suffered circa 2000 when they quit being the hot gravy train and and found out their most public and vocal leaders were after power and money, not their particular cause. 

Every day is a rude awakening. Do you think I'm naive? In my adult life I've watched the goons peel back so many hard-won victories. And the other side range from actual conservatives themselves to tepid to a handful of really progressive people. The idea the Left is in charge is pure fantasy, not one I could believe for a second. What I said was for people who think Biden is left, or even Warren. I don't have saint or heroes. When I want to believe in something, I look for it in myself.

When I say I am the future of gaming, that's not placing a belief in someone else. I'm just telling you what I'm going to do.

Quote from: pawsplay on November 29, 2023, 08:35:49 PM
When I say I am the future of gaming, that's not placing a belief in someone else. I'm just telling you what I'm going to do.

I don't think I referenced left or right but activists.

I was going by you list of what you think the future holds and how much is currently based on what modern activists have made acceptable and unacceptable speech. Most of that is less than a generation old and then arguably much of it, especially in the gay rights area and its relatives, by using a mildly random event, AIDS, as a rally point.

History has a nasty habit of reverting to the mean and a big part of that is the oscillating of activists to different moral poles.

I don't think WEIRD views on sexuality or how to treat ethnically different people have a long enough trend line to think they'll last at the current relatively extreme position by historical standards much past my lifetime if that. Especially on sexuality and women if demographic trends continue as they are as either "solution" will probably mean the end of open and exclusive homosexuality being socially acceptable (I'm not even sure I'd bet on euphemistic exclusive homosexuality being socially acceptable...confirmed bachelor, Boston marriage kind of things).

Hell, I'm not convinced we've permanently ended chattel slavery as a socially acceptable thing and at least in the West that has been the norm since before my grandparents were born.

Then again, I have phrases like "the right of side of history" or "the arc of history" (although I've kinda used them once and then couched in "ability to" not "will live").

But, do what you will do. That's all any of us can.

QuoteWhen I say I am the future of gaming, that's not placing a belief in someone else. I'm just telling you what I'm going to do.

Oh, so it's more megalomania variant. OK.

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 29, 2023, 09:55:11 PM

QuoteWhen I say I am the future of gaming, that's not placing a belief in someone else. I'm just telling you what I'm going to do.

Oh, so it's more megalomania variant. OK.

Call it megalomania if you want. I just haven't held my breath for anyone else to give me permission to exist since I was like 13 years old. Robert A. Heinlein, one of my favorite authors, really impressed on me that no one else was going to make you good or great, that to lead an honorable and purposeful life was a gift you had to give to yourself. And that mediocre people would never tire in their envy of the little dots of happiness of any us might find in our lives, by being ourselves. When it comes to what you think is good, right, and most desirable in life, no one else gets a vote.

I'm not some God-emperor. For most of my life, wokeness was not, like, a thing. Like there was a girl I was friends with in high school, who was bullied for being bisexual. Really shunned. And then just a few years later, people just slightly younger treated it like that was the coolest thing ever. But the birth of the 1990s was rough, especially in the Bible belt.

So my point, the most important point, is that nothing will be made, nothing new and good, ex nihil, by acting out on some grievance. Typically it's the "woke" crowd who form the circular firing squads, but in this case, it's the opposite. Whatever was good and great about gaming in the past, still is, and there is nothing that should invalidate anyone who wants to kick it "old school." We've simply reached a point where it can't be ignored when certain people just assume they can infringe on others. And yes, there are woke zealots, just as there are extremists in any camp, but the "woke" crowd and the "let's just play and not be political" are mostly unified by a desire to just put something good into the world. It's hard, though, because historically, trans, PoC, other marginalized groups just haven't been given their full due as human beings to sit at the table. That's changed, and some people are having a hard time adjusting. The RPG world, like a lot of male-dominated social milieus, was in a bit of a bubble for a while. But eventually the "real world" seeps in. And there are a lot of older norms in the RPG world that just don't align any more with modern values and customs.

There is this idea, too, that there is An Agenda. But it's just different people's opinions. The accepted opinion, both in the more progressive wing and the solid mainstream crowed, is that including slavery, for instance, is just not conducive to enjoyable play, is insensitive, is easily abused. I personally would say I'm way left on diversity issues. But I don't accept the orthodoxy on slavery. Yes, in a mainstream game, especially something like D&D, it shouldn't be used gratuitously, or left out in the open for kids to create unpleasant situations. But I think it certainly belongs in plenty of adult-oriented entertainment, especially fantasy and historical games; and in fact, slavery still exists today. I just, you know, let it be. Like how back in the day a lot of people wanted everyone to say Afro-American, and I just wasn't into it, and it went its way. And now most people just say African-American or Black, or whatever. And genderqueer has mostly given way to the more neutral nonbinary. I don't love that, but it seems to have some sticking power. And that's what it means to live in civil society. Sometimes the norms shift. That doesn't mean you have to be a different person. But the expectations are different, and depending on your choices, some of your behavior may become coded in ways you didn't intend.

If you don't define yourself as an enemy of progress, or even fashion, there is a future. It's as simple as that.

And coming back around to the original topic, there is a demographic shift. RPGs have penetrated into minority communities, even when they were previously not as readily accessible, simply because of time and friction. And the demographics have changed in a lot of places, especially the USA, but no less drastically in other places to. And indigenous people are being acknowledged as present in their own places. And just as you can say things around, like your friends, because they know you and your intentions, and they know you don't represent a threat to you, there are norms that existed in the past because there was an expectation of safety. but those expectations were based on an assumption of who was at the table, that didn't necessarily hold before, but definitely doesn't hold now. Just, like, imagine my discomfort, when I've had Black gamer friends learn that Tunnels & Trolls used to have a charm spell called, I shit you not, Yassa Massa. And that was still in print in my college days.  The Internet is like this big room now, and everyone can hear you. So yeah, it matters, that not everyone in the RPG community fits your preconceptions.

Quote from: pawsplay on November 30, 2023, 12:17:16 AM

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 29, 2023, 09:55:11 PM

QuoteWhen I say I am the future of gaming, that's not placing a belief in someone else. I'm just telling you what I'm going to do.

Oh, so it's more megalomania variant. OK.

Call it megalomania if you want. I just haven't held my breath for anyone else to give me permission to exist since I was like 13 years old. Robert A. Heinlein, one of my favorite authors, really impressed on me that no one else was going to make you good or great, that to lead an honorable and purposeful life was a gift you had to give to yourself. And that mediocre people would never tire in their envy of the little dots of happiness of any us might find in our lives, by being ourselves. When it comes to what you think is good, right, and most desirable in life, no one else gets a vote.

I'm not some God-emperor. For most of my life, wokeness was not, like, a thing. Like there was a girl I was friends with in high school, who was bullied for being bisexual. Really shunned. And then just a few years later, people just slightly younger treated it like that was the coolest thing ever. But the birth of the 1990s was rough, especially in the Bible belt.

So my point, the most important point, is that nothing will be made, nothing new and good, ex nihil, by acting out on some grievance. Typically it's the "woke" crowd who form the circular firing squads, but in this case, it's the opposite. Whatever was good and great about gaming in the past, still is, and there is nothing that should invalidate anyone who wants to kick it "old school." We've simply reached a point where it can't be ignored when certain people just assume they can infringe on others. And yes, there are woke zealots, just as there are extremists in any camp, but the "woke" crowd and the "let's just play and not be political" are mostly unified by a desire to just put something good into the world. It's hard, though, because historically, trans, PoC, other marginalized groups just haven't been given their full due as human beings to sit at the table. That's changed, and some people are having a hard time adjusting. The RPG world, like a lot of male-dominated social milieus, was in a bit of a bubble for a while. But eventually the "real world" seeps in. And there are a lot of older norms in the RPG world that just don't align any more with modern values and customs.

There is this idea, too, that there is An Agenda. But it's just different people's opinions. The accepted opinion, both in the more progressive wing and the solid mainstream crowed, is that including slavery, for instance, is just not conducive to enjoyable play, is insensitive, is easily abused. I personally would say I'm way left on diversity issues. But I don't accept the orthodoxy on slavery. Yes, in a mainstream game, especially something like D&D, it shouldn't be used gratuitously, or left out in the open for kids to create unpleasant situations. But I think it certainly belongs in plenty of adult-oriented entertainment, especially fantasy and historical games; and in fact, slavery still exists today. I just, you know, let it be. Like how back in the day a lot of people wanted everyone to say Afro-American, and I just wasn't into it, and it went its way. And now most people just say African-American or Black, or whatever. And genderqueer has mostly given way to the more neutral nonbinary. I don't love that, but it seems to have some sticking power. And that's what it means to live in civil society. Sometimes the norms shift. That doesn't mean you have to be a different person. But the expectations are different, and depending on your choices, some of your behavior may become coded in ways you didn't intend.

If you don't define yourself as an enemy of progress, or even fashion, there is a future. It's as simple as that.

And coming back around to the original topic, there is a demographic shift. RPGs have penetrated into minority communities, even when they were previously not as readily accessible, simply because of time and friction. And the demographics have changed in a lot of places, especially the USA, but no less drastically in other places to. And indigenous people are being acknowledged as present in their own places. And just as you can say things around, like your friends, because they know you and your intentions, and they know you don't represent a threat to you, there are norms that existed in the past because there was an expectation of safety. but those expectations were based on an assumption of who was at the table, that didn't necessarily hold before, but definitely doesn't hold now. Just, like, imagine my discomfort, when I've had Black gamer friends learn that Tunnels & Trolls used to have a charm spell called, I shit you not, Yassa Massa. And that was still in print in my college days.  The Internet is like this big room now, and everyone can hear you. So yeah, it matters, that not everyone in the RPG community fits your preconceptions.

Well, congrats. You (the general "you") have lived long enough to see yourself become the villian. There is a strong and vocal majority of "progressives" who are proponents of the most vile ideas and calling anyone who disagrees -ist or -phobe, and a lot of people are now waking up to the reality that the LGBTQ activist community are not satisfied with simply getting along, but that everyone must agree with their most terrible and hurtful ideas.

So enjoy the decline as those who claim to be pro-trans, pro-poc are revealed to be a bunch of assholes who are using, among other things, hobbies like RPGs as ideological battlefields.

QuoteIf you don't define yourself as an enemy of progress, or even fashion, there is a future. It's as simple as that.

Unless progress shall implode with next generation consuming you. Simple as that, mr. Prophet.

QuoteIt's hard, though, because historically, trans, PoC, other marginalized groups just haven't been given their full due as human beings to sit at the table. That's changed, and some people are having a hard time adjusting. The RPG world, like a lot of male-dominated social milieus, was in a bit of a bubble for a while. But eventually the "real world" seeps in. And there are a lot of older norms in the RPG world that just don't align any more with modern values and customs.

I generally call that nonsense - based on vast majority of testimonies from old age of RPG. From what I see women and quirky minorities were not interested in old RPGs because they catered to interests and fiction not popular among them, and they jump in large numbers as soon as more thematic shit appeared like Vampire. But women being more interested in VtM than AD&D does not mean they were en masse excluded from AD&D. This is merely propaganda to promote new designers as some champions.

QuoteAnd that's what it means to live in civil society. Sometimes the norms shift. That doesn't mean you have to be a different person. But the expectations are different, and depending on your choices, some of your behavior may become coded in ways you didn't intend.

This Mr. Future stands in my opinion in clear contradiction (at least in spirit) with

QuoteI just haven't held my breath for anyone else to give me permission to exist since I was like 13 years old. Robert A. Heinlein, one of my favorite authors, really impressed on me that no one else was going to make you good or great, that to lead an honorable and purposeful life was a gift you had to give to yourself.

So what can we say - we will not helding our breth for progressive society permissions to act.

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 30, 2023, 12:18:54 PM
I generally call that nonsense - based on vast majority of testimonies from old age of RPG. From what I see women and quirky minorities were not interested in old RPGs because they catered to interests and fiction not popular among them, and they jump in large numbers as soon as more thematic shit appeared like Vampire. But women being more interested in VtM than AD&D does not mean they were en masse excluded from AD&D. This is merely propaganda to promote new designers as some champions.

I've been playing RPGs for forty years, and I've hardly sat at a table since high school that didn't have a woman at it. And I'm talking AD&D, D&D, not Vampire. There have always been women in RPGs. It's just that, firstly, they weren't made welcome, and second, when they joined the hobby, they tended to avoid big social spaces where they would be continually subjected to that attitude. Women have always, since the beginning, had a significant presence.

Quote from: pawsplay on November 30, 2023, 05:14:06 PM
I've been playing RPGs for forty years, and I've hardly sat at a table since high school that didn't have a woman at it. And I'm talking AD&D, D&D, not Vampire. There have always been women in RPGs. [It's just that, firstly, they weren't made welcome, and second, when they joined the hobby, they tended to avoid big social spaces where they would be continually subjected to that attitude. Women have always, since the beginning, had a significant presence.

Well, we've had this argument before. There have always been women in the hobby, but the argument that the hobby was mean to them doesn't hold much water. The most likely explanation is that nerds were looked down on, and young women didn't want to be associated with that unpopularity. As the decades (feels beard greying) went on, and nerd hobbies started to go mainstream, that stigma was lessened and more women joined the hobby.

I question the legitimacy of making any demographic, minority or majority, the one true future of D&D pandering. But Wizards seems very much dedicated to doing that kind of thing anyway. With ESG working the way it does, perhaps their investment future is nevertheless going to profit off of a bad targeting plan, IDK.

Quote from: pawsplay on November 30, 2023, 05:14:06 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 30, 2023, 12:18:54 PM
I generally call that nonsense - based on vast majority of testimonies from old age of RPG. From what I see women and quirky minorities were not interested in old RPGs because they catered to interests and fiction not popular among them, and they jump in large numbers as soon as more thematic shit appeared like Vampire. But women being more interested in VtM than AD&D does not mean they were en masse excluded from AD&D. This is merely propaganda to promote new designers as some champions.

I've been playing RPGs for forty years, and I've hardly sat at a table since high school that didn't have a woman at it. And I'm talking AD&D, D&D, not Vampire. There have always been women in RPGs. It's just that, firstly, they weren't made welcome, and second, when they joined the hobby, they tended to avoid big social spaces where they would be continually subjected to that attitude. Women have always, since the beginning, had a significant presence.

This is a flat out lie.  At no time were tables generally hostile to girls and women.  If anything, we'd invite them and they'd roll their eyes.  45 years of playing all over the US and in several other countries and I never once saw a girl or woman turned away from or abused at a table.  The idea that old school gamers were misogynists is nothing but slander and anyone that perpetuates it is a piece of shit human.

I did see a lot of uncomfortable teen guys with poor social skills fail to communicate effectively and girls leave because they didn't feel the fit in.  If a girl stuck around a few session, the guy would settle down and it would be a better game all around.

What I did see a lot of is teen girls mock and ridicule players for being socially undesirable in various forms and having various learning disabilities.  (Players with autism and ADHD are very common.)  I have seen relentless bullying by "popular" girls to the point where adults had to step in and then the girl would cry victim and get away with it all. 

Quote from: pawsplay on November 26, 2023, 12:18:51 AM
I, a trans PoC gamer, am personally the future of the industry. Deal with it.

LOL, I was trying to figure out WTF your deal was. This post tells me everything I need to know.

Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2023, 08:55:05 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on November 26, 2023, 12:18:51 AM
I, a trans PoC gamer, am personally the future of the industry. Deal with it.

LOL, I was trying to figure out WTF your deal was. This post tells me everything I need to know.

I know, right?

Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2023, 08:55:05 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on November 26, 2023, 12:18:51 AM
I, a trans PoC gamer, am personally the future of the industry. Deal with it.

LOL, I was trying to figure out WTF your deal was. This post tells me everything I need to know.

That and the part about D&D 4E being part of the next round of "old school" games makes me think this is a huge trolling effort. Putting too much work into it, IMO, but it does show dedication to the bit.

Quote from: Brad on November 30, 2023, 08:55:05 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on November 26, 2023, 12:18:51 AM
I, a trans PoC gamer, am personally the future of the industry. Deal with it.

LOL, I was trying to figure out WTF your deal was. This post tells me everything I need to know.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Damn, Brad! My exact thought as well! *This post tells me everything I need to know."

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Kanyenya on November 30, 2023, 09:54:26 PM
That and the part about D&D 4E being part of the next round of "old school" games makes me think this is a huge trolling effort. Putting too much work into it, IMO, but it does show dedication to the bit.

Don't make me blush. SHARK has been posting here a year longer than I have.