EDIT: Shit, that wasn't meant to come off as spamming. I was just trying to save time and avoid repeats while examining the issue with a very different cohort of people I like to listen to.
Ok, trying that again, do the following 5e spells that people have been complaining about (specifically that they are too strong or impossible to overcome) seem problematic to you guys or is it all "white room" fretting?
Contagion, Forcecage, Polymorph, True Polymorph, Wall of Force.
Spamming for enworld? I hate that.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;783100EDIT: Shit, that wasn't meant to come off as spamming. I was just trying to save time and avoid repeats while examining the issue with a very different cohort of people I like to listen to.
Ok, trying that again, do the following 5e spells that people have been complaining about (specifically that they are too strong or impossible to overcome) seem problematic to you guys or is it all "white room" fretting?
Contagion, Forcecage, Polymorph, True Polymorph, Wall of Force.
White Room fretting. Concentration is a big deal and the higher the level the spell and character using it the more likely it will be broken. That is on purpose ala Mearls. They wanted high level spells to be deadly but major decision/strategy/tactical decisions.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;783100EDIT: Shit, that wasn't meant to come off as spamming. I was just trying to save time and avoid repeats while examining the issue with a very different cohort of people I like to listen to.
Ok, trying that again, do the following 5e spells that people have been complaining about (specifically that they are too strong or impossible to overcome) seem problematic to you guys or is it all "white room" fretting?
Contagion, Forcecage, Polymorph, True Polymorph, Wall of Force.
Sorry, pet peeve of mine. In my experience, everything is breakable at some point, that can apply to both the game and the spells.
I agree with Marleycat, it does sound like white room fretting.
Quote from: Marleycat;783113White Room fretting. Concentration is a big deal and the higher the level the spell and character using it the more likely it will be broken. That is on purpose ala Mearls. They wanted high level spells to be deadly but major decision/strategy/tactical decisions.
Yeah cuz those white room fretters didn't think about that one time where we had this thing that happened cuz, you know we play the game with people thing you know, cuz yeah.
Quote from: Sommerjon;783115Yeah cuz those white room fretters didn't think about that one time where we had this thing that happened cuz, you know we play the game with people thing you know, cuz yeah.
Care to contribute like an adult, or are you content to act like usual?
As far as the OP, I think there are problems with the polymorph spells particularly. They way the game is designed, a party of 4 PCs will have a challenge with an equal CR creature.
Polymorph changes that from a 4:1 ratio to 1:1 ratio, which can result in some really powerful PCs. And true polymorph makes it permanent. You can see how people would really try to exploit this. For example, you could turn your 6th level PC (or henchmen) into a chimera, which is a LOT more powerful than any other level 6 PC.
Chimera
Large monstrosity, chaotic evil
Armor Class 14 (natural armor)
Hit Points 114 (12d10 + 48)
Speed 30 ft., fly 60 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
19 (+4) 11 (+0) 19 (+4) 3 (−4) 14 (+2) 10 (+0)
Skills Perception +8
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 18
Languages understands Draconic but can't speak
Challenge 6 (2,300 XP)
Actions
Multiattack. The chimera makes three attacks: one with its bite, one with its horns, and one with its claws. When its fire breath is available, it can use the breath in place of its bite or horns.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) piercing damage.
Horns. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 10 (1d12 + 4) bludgeoning damage.
Claws. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) slashing damage.
Fire Breath (Recharge 5–6). The dragon head exhales fire in a 15-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw, taking 31 (7d8) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
I wouldn't say broken so much as 'may have a huge impact if used cleverly'
Even if those spells prove very effective, presumably the enemies of the characters will also have such spells.
It's not a new thing; in 1E dnd spells like wall of force are amazing.
In my games certain spells will still call for a system shock check (or CON save) and others will still age the caster (another CON save).
Lets see how many people line up to get polymorphed when it could kill them?
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;783100EDIT: Shit, that wasn't meant to come off as spamming. I was just trying to save time and avoid repeats while examining the issue with a very different cohort of people I like to listen to.
Ok, trying that again, do the following 5e spells that people have been complaining about (specifically that they are too strong or impossible to overcome) seem problematic to you guys or is it all "white room" fretting?
Contagion, Forcecage, Polymorph, True Polymorph, Wall of Force.
The only interesting thing that came out of that thread for me was that some spells have components that you would really think would be consumed but are not.
To my mind if a spell takes 1,500 gp of ruby dust to cast, you should not be able to sweep it up afterwards and use it again.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;783117Chimera
Large monstrosity, chaotic evil
This creature is not a Beast, so you would need True Polymorph.
Quote from: jadrax;783133To my mind if a spell takes 1,500 gp of ruby dust to cast, you should not be able to sweep it up afterwards and use it again.
I think there are several spells where the omission of mentioning component consumption was a goof.
Identify- a single 100gp pearl and an owl feather and you are set for repeated castings.
Contagion - The big issue with this is the interpretation of the spell effects. It's clear that if you fail three saves then you've got the full effects of the disease for the seven day duration. It's also clear that if you make three saves you're fine. The ambiguity is about what happens on the first two or three rounds while you're making those saves.
Since the effects of some of the diseases can be quite nasty (e.g. double damage from all sources or stunned any time you take damage), if you take the full effects of the disease during the time in which you're making saving throws (which is one possible interpretation) then it means you can automatically give any creature one of those powerful effects for at least three rounds. Even "legendary" creatures with special abilities that let them automatically make saving throws can't throw off the effect during that time - and those are exactly the sort of big powerful creatures that you want to be able to do double damage to or to stun.
So if you take that interpretation then the spell can make fights against a big "solo" creature quite un-fun. That ancient dragon might have lots of nice abilities, but if it's stunned for at least three rounds with no save then the party can do a lot of beating on it during that time.
On the other hand, if you interpret the spell as working like the Flesh to Stone spell (which is a similar three-save mechanic) or like death saves when you run out of hit points (which again uses the same three-save mechanic) then the problem entirely disappears. Only after failing three saves does the big monster get the horrible disease effect, and that's a lot fairer.
Personally, I think that while the wording is definitely ambiguous the latter interpretation is obviously the correct one - both in terms of consistency with other similar effects and in terms of game fun.
But others favour the much more powerful first interpretation and then call the spell overpowered or broken.
Forcecage - It's a big impenetrable cage that can't easily be dispelled. That's fair for its level. I'm not seeing how it's particularly different from previous editions - and it wasn't a real problem then.
Polymorph - I'm not sure what the problem is supposed to be with this spell. It's probably the weakest version of the spell in any edition. It only turns people into animals ("beasts" as opposed to "monstrosities") and its even had the old turn-them-into-a-fish-and-watch-them-drown exploit removed because when they run out of hit points they turn back to normal at whatever state of health they were in before they were polymorphed. It doesn't do weird things with stacking scores (your abilities - physical and mental - are replaced with those of the chosen animal) and although you retain your personality you only have the mental stats of the animal so you can't talk or think or cast spells.
And the caster has to keep concentrating for an hour.
I'm really not seeing how any of this is a problem. What are people even complaining about with this one?
True Polymorph - This one is much more powerful since it lets you turn the target into any kind of creature (or even into an inanimate object). But then it's a 9th level spell competing with things like Time Stop and Meteor Swarm and Wish so it deserves to be good.
Wall of Force - It's just like the previous editions of Wall of Force. It's an impenetrable wall of force that can't be dispelled. It's a staple of the game, and this version is weaker than previous editions because it requires concentration to keep it up.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;783100EDIT: Shit, that wasn't meant to come off as spamming. I was just trying to save time and avoid repeats while examining the issue with a very different cohort of people I like to listen to.
Ok, trying that again, do the following 5e spells that people have been complaining about (specifically that they are too strong or impossible to overcome) seem problematic to you guys or is it all "white room" fretting?
Contagion, Forcecage, Polymorph, True Polymorph, Wall of Force.
Pfft. Not worried about it. Those spells were never an issue in my previous editions of D&D, they're less so now. This hand-wringing is coming from GM's that the rules be the game.
So someone turns the party into Chimera - so what? They can all kill other equal CR monsters (I don't even like CR... I can make a CR1 mobs deadly to a party of level 4 PC in a lot of circumstances) - you could tax their XP because they're gaining it in a foreign form, have an NPC adventuring party do the same thing to them (they're Chimera after all - kill them!) or any number of possibilities that if the PC's can do it - so can others. And keeping them in context with the world - if they're smart enough to turn themselves into magical monstrosities to kill a monstrosity - Great for them!
If they do that as their "go to" method - use your GM skills to challenge that assumption. That's your job.
Quote from: jadrax;783136This creature is not a Beast, so you would need True Polymorph.
True, but the overall point still stands. The way CR is designed, using a 1:1 ratio to level seems overpowered. It's 3x as powerful as the druid's wildshape for example, which is at a 3:1 ratio.
How many 5th level characters are this tough:
Triceratops
Huge beast, unaligned
Armor Class 13 (natural armor)
Hit Points 95 (10d12 + 30)
Speed 50 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
22 (+6) 9 (−1) 17 (+3) 2 (−4) 11 (+0) 5 (−3)
Senses passive Perception 10
Languages —
Challenge 5 (1,800 XP)
Trampling Charge. If the triceratops moves at least 20 feet straight toward a creature and then hits it with a gore attack on the same turn, that target must succeed on a DC 13 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone. If the target is prone, the triceratops can make one stomp attack against it as a bonus action.
Actions
Gore. Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 24 (4d8 + 6) piercing damage.
Stomp. Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 5 ft.,one prone creature. Hit: 22 (3d10 + 6) bludgeoning damage
Quote from: Sacrosanct;783117Care to contribute like an adult, or are you content to act like usual?
Why should I care?
Whatever I say you'll dismiss automatically anyways.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;783144It's 3x as powerful as the druid's wildshape for example, which is at a 3:1 ratio.
But Wildshape is much, much, much better in other ways.
Not only is no Concentration required, but also you retain your own mental abilities, and skills, and saving throws if yours are higher, and class abilities if they make sense, and racial abilities if they make sense, and feats if they make sense.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Polymorph is a bad spell, its a very good spell. I just don't think its game breaking.
Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;783142...
Forcecage - It's a big impenetrable cage that can't easily be dispelled. That's fair for its level. I'm not seeing how it's particularly different from previous editions - and it wasn't a real problem then.
...
Wall of Force - It's just like the previous editions of Wall of Force. It's an impenetrable wall of force that can't be dispelled. It's a staple of the game, and this version is weaker than previous editions because it requires concentration to keep it up.
I think the major issue people have is the fact that these don't offer any kind of saving throw.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;783144True, but the overall point still stands. The way CR is designed, using a 1:1 ratio to level seems overpowered. It's 3x as powerful as the druid's wildshape for example, which is at a 3:1 ratio.
How many 5th level characters are this tough:
Triceratops
Huge beast, unaligned
Armor Class 13 (natural armor)
Hit Points 95 (10d12 + 30)
Speed 50 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
22 (+6) 9 (−1) 17 (+3) 2 (−4) 11 (+0) 5 (−3)
Senses passive Perception 10
Languages —
Challenge 5 (1,800 XP)
Trampling Charge. If the triceratops moves at least 20 feet straight toward a creature and then hits it with a gore attack on the same turn, that target must succeed on a DC 13 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone. If the target is prone, the triceratops can make one stomp attack against it as a bonus action.
Actions
Gore. Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 24 (4d8 + 6) piercing damage.
Stomp. Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 5 ft.,one prone creature. Hit: 22 (3d10 + 6) bludgeoning damage
You know what I'm seeing there?
INT 2Sure you have the body of a tough dinosaur but you have the pea brain to go with it. I'm not entirely sure if an INT 2 creature understands the concept of "allies" that are not of the same species.
Loads of fun as random targets (friends and foes) get gored and trampled.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;783155You know what I'm seeing there?
INT 2
Sure you have the body of a tough dinosaur but you have the pea brain to go with it. I'm not entirely sure if an INT 2 creature understands the concept of "allies" that are not of the same species.
Loads of fun as random targets (friends and foes) get gored and trampled.
This is an excellent point. I'm sure someone would scour the books looking for the right beasts that would be better to avoid effectively turning themselves into a DM controlled NPC
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;783100Ok, trying that again, do the following 5e spells that people have been complaining about (specifically that they are too strong or impossible to overcome) seem problematic to you guys or is it all "white room" fretting?
Some of it is just people handling any form of ambiguity poorly. Most RPGers will have no issue with dealing with these spells at the table.
Case in point, Blacky (correctly) uses consistency and logic to overcome the ambiguity rather than sticking to a literal reading of the words regardless:
Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;783142On the other hand, if you interpret the spell as working like the Flesh to Stone spell (which is a similar three-save mechanic) or like death saves when you run out of hit points (which again uses the same three-save mechanic) then the problem entirely disappears. Only after failing three saves does the big monster get the horrible disease effect, and that's a lot fairer.
Personally, I think that while the wording is definitely ambiguous the latter interpretation is obviously the correct one - both in terms of consistency with other similar effects and in terms of game fun.
Otherwise, a lot of people only just seem to be understanding how cool the new Concentration mechanic actually is. This helps a lot.
Assuming we go with the "gradual onset" interpretation of contagion, my only problem would be conceptual: i.e., how a "disease" could affect constructs and undead that don't have anything approaching a normal biology. I'd probably just houserule that they are immune.
I have no issues with Forcecage or Wall of Force.
I've already indicated that I'd probably apply -2 to the conversion of "level" to CR rating for characters by the True Polymorph spell. I might even go -3. That still allows the spell to be extremely powerful and useful. For monsters that already have a CR rating, I'd just use it as is.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;783153I think the major issue people have is the fact that these don't offer any kind of saving throw.
Save against a wall sounds bit odd to me.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;783155You know what I'm seeing there?
INT 2
Sure you have the body of a tough dinosaur but you have the pea brain to go with it. I'm not entirely sure if an INT 2 creature understands the concept of "allies" that are not of the same species.
Loads of fun as random targets (friends and foes) get gored and trampled.
That's still an Int score. It would be a bit of a dick move to take control away from the player just because they used a smart play, and the triceratops would still have the character's personality.
OTOH, if one of my characters got turned into a Triceratops, I'd use the following behaviour guide;
IF something is trying to hurt me or my herd (Rest of party counts as this)
THEN trample / gore it until it stops trying to hurt us
ELSE why should I give a shit, I'm a fucking dinosaur, time to go grazing
Quote from: Exploderwizard;783137I think there are several spells where the omission of mentioning component consumption was a goof.
Looking at 'Drawmij's Instant Summons', where the component is a not consumed sapphire that you have to crush, it seems that while list components that are 'consumed by the spell' it doesn't necessarily mean you can automatically reuse the component.
So I think in the case of Forcecage (or any other spell requiring dust), I would very much rule that if you want your ruby dust back, your going to have to find a good way of picking it all up of the floor.
A billion years ago, when all these games were first invented, every fantasy game I can think of had spells that were powerful, often in weird ways. The correct reaction is to look at it as something that just is. It is a power that exists in the world. And then ask yourself what else is possible that somehow counter acts it, or interacts with it. Maybe a spell does something spectacular, but it is known only by an insane hermit who will teach it to you, but only with some remarkable condition.
Quote from: jadrax;783187Looking at 'Drawmij's Instant Summons', where the component is a not consumed sapphire that you have to crush, it seems that while list components that are 'consumed by the spell' it doesn't necessarily mean you can automatically reuse the component.
So I think in the case of Forcecage (or any other spell requiring dust), I would very much rule that if you want your ruby dust back, your going to have to find a good way of picking it all up of the floor.
Create a spell that picks up all of the diamond dust and puts it back in your pouch. Awkward, but it'll pay for itself, and wizzies are lazy buggers, plus it would double the spell slots required.
Quote from: Skywalker;783164Save against a wall sounds bit odd to me.
It's the entrapping sphere part that causes consternation, especially since it leaves the target visible for further spell effects. Compare it to Hold Monster, which is also 5th level and not only allows a save but grants another every turn, or the 6th level wall of ice that can also form entrapping spheres but can be battered through and probably blocks line of sight.
Quote from: Ladybird;783195Create a spell that picks up all of the diamond dust and puts it back in your pouch. Awkward, but it'll pay for itself, and wizzies are lazy buggers, plus it would double the spell slots required.
I think the existing basic cantrips can already do this, no need to create new ones.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;783198I think the existing basic cantrips can already do this, no need to create new ones.
Mage Hand and Prestidigitation don't quite look fine-grained enough to me (Diamond dust would be awful to pick up, I imagine it as being like toner crossed with ground glass), plus this is a pretty nice effect, so let's go for...
Dyson's Fantasia, 1st-level transmutation
Casting time - 1 action
Range - (Spell Level) metres
Components - V, S
Duration - Instantaneous
When the caster casts this spell, they imagine a particular type of item (For example, dust of a particular type, coins of a particular denomination, flowers or a particular type), no larger than a coin. The spell produces an invisible, magical helper that picks up all instances of that object within range and deposits them instantly within a container on the wizard's person. If there are sufficient of the items that they would not fit in the container, the container will burst.
Higher-level spell slots: for items which have been used as M components for spells, as they still contain some residual magical energy, this spell must be cast using a spell slot of equal or higher level in order to handle them.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;783197It's the entrapping sphere part that causes consternation, especially since it leaves the target visible for further spell effects. Compare it to Hold Monster, which is also 5th level and not only allows a save but grants another every turn, or the 6th level wall of ice that can also form entrapping spheres but can be battered through and probably blocks line of sight.
From my experiences of previous editions, the ability to teleport (or be teleported out of it) out of it has generally been seen as the spell's primary "out" (along with disintegration).
Also, the Wall of Force doesn't stop the target from casting spells or doing other things, including those that have effects beyond the Wall provided they are not of physical in nature. As such, its advantage, whilst potentially devastating, is somewhat more circumstantial compared to Hold Monster, Wall of Ice or Forcecage.
Quote from: Ladybird;783195Create a spell that picks up all of the diamond dust and puts it back in your pouch. Awkward, but it'll pay for itself, and wizzies are lazy buggers, plus it would double the spell slots required.
Actually, as its just a simple task that would be very time consuming,
Unseen Servant probably would already fit the bill. If you want to do it quickly, you may need a new spell though.
Quote from: Ladybird;783211Mage Hand and Prestidigitation don't quite look fine-grained enough to me (Diamond dust would be awful to pick up, I imagine it as being like toner crossed with ground glass), plus this is a pretty nice effect, so let's go for...
Dyson's Fantasia, 1st-level transmutation
Casting time - 1 action
Range - (Spell Level) metres
Components - V, S
Duration - Instantaneous
When the caster casts this spell, they imagine a particular type of item (For example, dust of a particular type, coins of a particular denomination, flowers or a particular type), no larger than a coin. The spell produces an invisible, magical helper that picks up all instances of that object within range and deposits them instantly within a container on the wizard's person. If there are sufficient of the items that they would not fit in the container, the container will burst.
Higher-level spell slots: for items which have been used as M components for spells, as they still contain some residual magical energy, this spell must be cast using a spell slot of equal or higher level in order to handle them.
Nice!
Quote from: Sacrosanct;783117Chimera
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
19 (+4) 11 (+0) 19 (+4) 3 (−4) 14 (+2) 10 (+0)
Note the 3 intelligence though... The polymorphed PC is going to barely be able to string coherent thoughts together. They might retain their alignment and personality. but at an INT of 3 their personality is going to be subsumed in the beast quite a bit.
All sorts of potential for turning this from a boon into a nightmare for the PCs.
They are also going to be more susceptible to enemy charms and effects targeted at low intelligence beasts.
A wyvern might be a better option for the level 6 character change since its not going to effectively lobotomize the PC and turn them into a NPC pet.
On the other hand this could be used to effectively create powerfull pets for the PCs that wouldnt otherwise be possible. A chaotic good Chimera pet? Hell, a fricking lawful good T-Rex mount! Roll up a new character. We can mount the whole party on these! (once the new soon to be NPC reaches level 8... ahem.)
Quote from: Omega;783226Note the 3 intelligence though... The polymorphed PC is going to barely be able to string coherent thoughts together. They might retain their alignment and personality. but at an INT of 3 their personality is going to be subsumed in the beast quite a bit.
All sorts of potential for turning this from a boon into a nightmare for the PCs.
They are also going to be more susceptible to enemy charms and effects targeted at low intelligence beasts.
A wyvern might be a better option for the level 6 character change since its not going to effectively lobotomize the PC and turn them into a NPC pet.
On the other hand this could be used to effectively create powerfull pets for the PCs that wouldnt otherwise be possible. A chaotic good Chimera pet? Hell, a fricking lawful good T-Rex mount! Roll up a new character. We can mount the whole party on these! (once the new soon to be NPC reaches level 8... ahem.)
That's more of what I was getting at. Not necessarily polymorphing the PCs directly, but doing it to their henchmen or hirelings. After all, with a 3 INT, the hireling won't remember that you polymorphed him ;) They'll just have this vague recollection that you're the boss.
Quote from: Skywalker;783222From my experiences of previous editions, the ability to teleport (or be teleported out of it) out of it has generally been seen as the spell's primary "out" (along with disintegration).
Also, the Wall of Force doesn't stop the target from casting spells or doing other things, including those that have effects beyond the Wall provided they are not of physical in nature. As such, its advantage, whilst potentially devastating, is somewhat more circumstantial compared to Hold Monster, Wall of Ice or Forcecage.
Someone on another forum just pointed out that total cover stops all spell targeting
regardless of whether the total cover is transparent. If this holds up I think Wall of Force is out of the problem zone.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;783232Someone on another forum just pointed out that total cover stops all spell targeting regardless of whether the total cover is transparent. If this holds up I think Wall of Force is out of the problem zone.
Given that Forcecage calls out all spell effects as being blocked specifically, I am not sure that's right. I would certainly agree that Wall of Force provides total cover for spells of a physical nature that pass through it, and so prevents targeting of such spells. That does leave a number of spells that can be cast in and out of the sphere though.
Either way, go with whatever feels good for you and your group.
The other thing with Wall of Force that some people seem to be missing is that it is just that - a wall.
The spell description says the wall can be made of up to ten 10'x10' squares, and I've seen people therefore saying that you can use six of them to form a cube to trap people within.
But this is explicitly disallowed by the spell description which says that the wall must be flat.
So the wall might temporarily block a corridor or something, but it won't trap creatures. Most of the time it won't be any better than a Wall of Stone or the like.
There is an option to have it a hemisphere or sphere instead, but that's a 10' radius so you're really going to struggle to surround much as the majority of the hemisphere (which is 20' across) is only going to be a couple of feet high - not enough to fit over the heads of a group of creatures or even stuff like furniture. If you want to fit a target inside it you basically need it to stand in the middle of a room so you've got 20' of clear space around the it to accommodate the rest of the hemisphere.
Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;783244There is an option to have it a hemisphere or sphere instead, but that's a 10' radius so you're really going to struggle to surround much as the majority of the hemisphere (which is 20' across) is only going to be a couple of feet high - not enough to fit over the heads of a group of creatures or even stuff like furniture. If you want to fit a target inside it you basically need it to stand in the middle of a room so you've got 20' of clear space around the it to accommodate the rest of the hemisphere.
Anything that straddles the boundary though is pushed to one side or the other at the caster's choice though. So there isn't much need for too much finesse.
Quote from: tenbones;783143you could tax their XP because they're gaining it in a foreign form,
Good point this. The polymorphed PC should not be getting EXP.
Quote from: Skywalker;783248Anything that straddles the boundary though is pushed to one side or the other at the caster's choice though. So there isn't much need for too much finesse.
Cast the flat version to produce a wall of force, say, an inch above the floor.
The caster chooses the side creatures cut-through are pushed into, so let's have them pushed into the
underside of the wall.
Bam, one thousand square feet of instant death by crushing. And you don't need to worry about concentration, because even if being flattened didn't kill something, it wouldn't be in a fit state for anything afterwards, and wouldn't be able to recover.
(For shits and giggles, you can do the same trick against horizontal walls, but it's probably less useful. A strict reading suggests you could do the same thing with ceilings; a quick check didn't reveal the height of a space, so strictly you could do the same trick using the ceiling or against flyers outdoors, but that seems a bit too daft for me.)
Quote from: Ladybird;783263Bam, one thousand square feet of instant death by crushing.
You mean: Bam, the GM tells you to stop being a dick. ;)
EDIT: Or if your GM is also a dick: Bam, the GM fields nothing but Wall of Force wielding monsters to kill your PC until you stop :D
Quote from: Skywalker;783241Given that Forcecage calls out all spell effects as being blocked specifically, I am not sure that's right.
Many spells with similar effects in the book have very different wording and formatting. That may be reminder text?
Quote from: Skywalker;783269You mean: Bam, the GM tells you to stop being a dick. ;)
EDIT: Or if your GM is also a dick: Bam, the GM fields nothing but Wall of Force wielding monsters to kill your PC until you stop :D
Yeah, it clearly can't actually work, because otherwise, wizards would have used it to end every confrontation ever.
But it's legal and doesn't even bend any rules.
Quote from: Ladybird;783273But it's legal and doesn't even bend any rules.
Don't make me write: "Rule 0: Don't Be A Dick!" inside the front cover of your PHB :)
More seriously, your example just shows that an RPG will never be free of ambiguity regardless, so using judgement and common sense are a necessary input into any RPG.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;783272Many spells with similar effects in the book have very different wording and formatting. That may be reminder text?
Go with what works for you :) I personally think Wall of Force is clearly meant to be just a physical barrier, where Forcecage is also a barrier to spells.
like many things in D&D, it's only a problem if your DM is incompetent at problem solving skills. I.e., rule#1 is that it's the DM's game. If a spell (or anything) becomes problematic, the DM can simply make a ruling and there you go, problem fixed
Well magic is magic if you can work out clever ways to use it great.
these things have existed in D&D since the begining. We all recall casting enlarge on the guys armour using walls of iron cast in the air to crush opponents etc.
If we reduce spells to be "wall of force" creates a flat barrier that must be vertical and must touch the ground and all it does as act as a wall removes all creativity. We want spells that do something in the world "create an invisible wall this big" that is what is does how you can use that is up to you. the DM would need to decide if an invisible wall had any mass for example or if you could use it to crush things. One of my PCs created a spell that manipulated force constructs moving them etc. We all know how tough forcefields can be if they are 1 molecult thick and can be moved quickly.
As for polymorph. All the restriction pointed out show a lack of creativity. The hobbit thif sneaks into the giant camp then you turn him into a T-Rex.
As for worrying that a 9th level spell in True Polymorph is too powerful... its a 9th level spell of course its too powerful.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;783291like many things in D&D, it's only a problem if your DM is incompetent at problem solving skills. I.e., rule#1 is that it's the DM's game. If a spell (or anything) becomes problematic, the DM can simply make a ruling and there you go, problem fixed
Ah, the fine dividing line between "problematic" and "intelligent"... A smart player will use anything and everything at their disposal. You need to shut down obvious exploits, for sure, but shut down too much smart play and they'll stop trying to be creative.
Quote from: Ladybird;783335Ah, the fine dividing line between "problematic" and "intelligent"... A smart player will use anything and everything at their disposal. You need to shut down obvious exploits, for sure, but shut down too much smart play and they'll stop trying to be creative.
Yup totally agree.
Even the Term "Problematic" is an issue. problmeatic for who.
Take Scry, port, fry, port. That isn't problematic for the player that is perfect. Minimal risk maximum reward.
If a PC wizard always spams the same 4 spell combo because it always works you can nerf the spells, you can change the world or you can just man the fuck up and accept that the PC worked out a great way to beat the world.
One thing that annoys me is when a DM decides his monsters have developed a counter to the party's standard attack strategy despite the fact that when its been used no monster has ever escaped to tell anyone about it.
Play the monsters appropriate to their skills ability and knowledge.
If you think a PC casting Heat metal on the opposing Cleric's holy symbol thus preventing them from casting any spells is an unfair so you make sure that the next cleric has a wooden holy symbol then you have to ask are you the one being a dick.
Quote from: jibbajibba;783341Take Scry, port, fry, port. That isn't problematic for the player that is perfect. Minimal risk maximum reward.
Yeah. If you create a class that is designed to appeal to smart, problem-solving players, state that characters have to be smart to be able to be in this class (So it's in character to be a problem-solver), and then let them get versatile problem-solving abilities... they are going to...
(https://i.imgflip.com/bkudp.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/bkudp) (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)
And that's clearly what the designer wanted to happen, because otherwise, why would they have done all of those things?
Quote from: Ladybird;783335Ah, the fine dividing line between "problematic" and "intelligent"... A smart player will use anything and everything at their disposal. You need to shut down obvious exploits, for sure, but shut down too much smart play and they'll stop trying to be creative.
It seems to be a fairly clear line though.
Clever tactic that makes the game fun for all = intelligent
Clever tactic that makes the game repetitive and boring = problematic
The only time it is an issue is either when one person (usually the person using the tactic) is still finding it fun but everyone else is sick of it; or when everyone is finding it boring but someone (usually a power gamer / optimiser) can't stop doing it because they can't bring themselves to do something that is "less effective".
In the former case an out of character chat with the group usually solves the issue and everyone agrees to stop using that tactic, but in the latter case that might not work and it might need a house rule to be established preventing the tactic from being useful (or preferably limiting its usefulness to certain situations so it doesn't get overused and boring).
I'd also guess that sometimes the optimiser might not be happy with the house rule or the pressure to not use the tactic and may go online to whinge about their character being "nerfed" or "gimped" by the unfair DM. In which case the only sensible course of action is to point and laugh.
Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;783344The only time it is an issue is either when one person (usually the person using the tactic) is still finding it fun but everyone else is sick of it; or when everyone is finding it boring but someone (usually a power gamer / optimiser) can't stop doing it because they can't bring themselves to do something that is "less effective".
The character will quickly realise that their tactic is highly effective. So why should the character do something less effective? And because they're adventuring with a party in potentially deadly situations, not acting to the best of their ability puts everybody else's lives in danger. My character wants their colleagues to be smart, my character is relying on them.
I mean, if I turned around and said to my boss "nah, I don't want to any any more automation, it's too efficient", he'd say "well, I don't want to employ you any more".
QuoteI'd also guess that sometimes the optimiser might not be happy with the house rule or the pressure to not use the tactic and may go online to whinge about their character being "nerfed" or "gimped" by the unfair DM. In which case the only sensible course of action is to point and laugh.
Sometimes you're right, but sometimes the GM is actually just being a dick, and punishing players for thinking outside the box.
Are there any in-game elements that are anti-magic? I suppose that a GM could introduce locations or foes where magical effects go haywire or even nullified, prompting the wizard to change their tactics.
Although I've been accused of GM tyranny for suggesting this, or even introducing fire-resistant monsters to a party with a Wizard who spams fireball all the time.
For the record, I don't mean taking away character abilities, just challenging them to pick and choose them based on the conditions of the conflict.
Quote from: Ladybird;783346The character will quickly realise that their tactic is highly effective. So why should the character do something less effective? And because they're adventuring with a party in potentially deadly situations, not acting to the best of their ability puts everybody else's lives in danger. My character wants their colleagues to be smart, my character is relying on them.
I mean, if I turned around and said to my boss "nah, I don't want to any any more automation, it's too efficient", he'd say "well, I don't want to employ you any more".
Ah... the old "I'm just playing my character" defence.
It's a
game. The enjoyment of the players trumps character consistency every time.
If it's that important to you that you constantly use a particular tactic knowing that doing so is spoiling everyone else's fun "because it's what my character would do" then you need to retire that character and play a new character who wouldn't (or can't) do that thing.
Quote from: Necrozius;783349Are there any in-game elements that are anti-magic? I suppose that a GM could introduce locations or foes where magical effects go haywire or even nullified, prompting the wizard to change their tactics.
Anti-Magic Shell and Dispel Magic come to mind.
Thing is. There is no in game way to make these permanent area effects outside of spell research or something else to set it into a place.
Quote from: Necrozius;783349Are there any in-game elements that are anti-magic? I suppose that a GM could introduce locations or foes where magical effects go haywire or even nullified, prompting the wizard to change their tactics.
There is an "Antimagic Shell" spell that is centred around the caster (and is mobile) and nullifies all magic except for that from deities and artefacts.
Previous editions have almost all had similar anti-magic effects, either as creature abilities or simply as a natural phenomenon in certain areas. We'll have to wait for the MM and DMG to see how (and if) these are implemented in 5e.
Quote from: Necrozius;783349Although I've been accused of GM tyranny for suggesting this, or even introducing fire-resistant monsters to a party with a Wizard who spams fireball all the time.
Well, it varies. Any NPC wizard is going to be a smart problem-solver with a suite of problem-solving tools, so they're going to try and counteract anyone coming to kill them. Entirely legit. And if many people survive that fireball-fan wizzie, they're going to acquire a reputation, people will
prepare.
But prep is expensive, and if every NPC they meet is suddenly immune to the wizard's exact strategy, though, and every room has an antimagic field, that's not really ideal.
I suppose you could use
does this make sense in the context of the world as a guideline; if the NPC's prep makes sense given what they could know and do, it's fine.
Of course, as a player, if I suddenly started encountering random enemies prepared against my best strategy, I'd really want to know why, and who has acquired a grudge against me. As long as you can sell it well enough, I might not notice.
But I'd also really like to be playing a Triceratops, so make of that what you will.
Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;783352If it's that important to you that you constantly use a particular tactic knowing that doing so is spoiling everyone else's fun "because it's what my character would do" then you need to retire that character and play a new character who wouldn't (or can't) do that thing.
Even if I'm not playing the problem-solver, my character wants to make it home alive, and is relying on the rest of the party to do their parts. We are a
team, everybody pulls their weight. My character wants the wizard to come up with a great solution, because then we have more chance to get back home; if the wizard can't be trusted to do that, they can stay home.
Quote from: Ladybird;783273Yeah, it clearly can't actually work, because otherwise, wizards would have used it to end every confrontation ever.
But it's legal and doesn't even bend any rules.
I would rule that the space the creature is pushed into must be large enough to accomodate the creature.
Much like the
enlarge spell cannot be used to lock a creature in a tiny space and crush it-the creature will only grow to a maximum size that the space allows.
Quote from: Ladybird;783360Even if I'm not playing the problem-solver, my character wants to make it home alive, and is relying on the rest of the party to do their parts. We are a team, everybody pulls their weight. My character wants the wizard to come up with a great solution, because then we have more chance to get back home; if the wizard can't be trusted to do that, they can stay home.
Sure. And if everyone is happy with the same tactic being used every time because it's very effective due to a quirk of the rules then it's fine. Knock yourself out. Go Team!
But I was talking about - and you quoted - the case where the rest of the players (not the characters, the players) find the that the repeated use of the same tactic spoils their fun. If that's not the case then there's no problem. But if it is the case, then someone needs to compromise and change what they're doing in order to make it more fun for everyone - and in that situation whining about "but it's what my character would do" is the last resort of a scoundrel.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;783371I would rule that the space the creature is pushed into must be large enough to accomodate the creature.
Much like the enlarge spell cannot be used to lock a creature in a tiny space and crush it-the creature will only grow to a maximum size that the space allows.
That and the wall spell says nothing about squashing someone under it by push.
If you made a flat plane it would push them to the edges. Not up or down.
Now. If you can set i up by a pit or cliff... thats a different matter.
Quote from: Omega;783373That and the wall spell says nothing about squashing someone under it by push.
If you made a flat plane it would push them to the edges. Not up or down.
Now. If you can set i up by a pit or cliff... thats a different matter.
Certainly. :D
If you happen to create the wall at the edge of a cliff above a lava pit and it passed through someone standing at the ledge..... buh bye.
Funny the same people say magical healing is not required because PCs need to play smart if they have no healing are saying that repeating the same smart tactics isn't fun. I also expect the same people use 10 foot poles to tap their way round dungeons and all the other standard MOs which aren't boring because?
They seem to be saying play like we play or you are having badwrongfun.
Just like Ladybird says it's fine if I try my tactic in front of observers and so my future enemies are able to prepare but it's a dick move if every random creature I meet has prepped a counter to the tactic. To me its no different to a railroad. I the DM have decided that I don't want your PCs to be able to do that so I have altered the world specifically to stop you doing it.
Quote from: jibbajibba;783386Just like Ladybird says it's fine if I try my tactic in front of observers and so my future enemies are able to prepare but it's a dick move if every random creature I meet has prepped a counter to the tactic. To me its no different to a railroad. I the DM have decided that I don't want your PCs to be able to do that so I have altered the world specifically to stop you doing it.
For the record I'm really not implying that I want to do any of that.
My response was to the people (mostly elsewhere than here) complaining that Wizards are "too powerful" or always have an auto-win ability for every battle, leaving the other characters in the side lines. I'd argue that the GM can mess around with the environmental conditions to make things a bit less predictable for the spell casters. Not in the same way every time or deliberately neutralizing all of the character's abilities.
My point is that the GM can tailor encounters in atypical ways. Perhaps the creature is immune to non-magical weapons, or the magic circle prohibits Ice magic, or everything in the terrain is super flammable and explosive, or the troll can only die by a lightning bolt, or only quadrupedal animals are allowed inside the grove.
All of these types of limitations encourage the Wizard (and other spell casters) to pick and choose the right "tools" for the job. This can be really fun and rewarding if some investigation before hand can tip the players about these quirks so that they can prepare.
Quote from: jibbajibba;783386Funny the same people say magical healing is not required because PCs need to play smart if they have no healing are saying that repeating the same smart tactics isn't fun. I also expect the same people use 10 foot poles to tap their way round dungeons and all the other standard MOs which aren't boring because?
They seem to be saying play like we play or you are having badwrongfun.
Thats their problem. Not ours.
When I am the DM. (Which is usually) If someone comes up with a creative way to off monsters. Fine. But if they try to bend the rules to absurd levels. Or more importantly, try to off the monsters without any risk at all. Not that fine.
In the walls case. Trying to instakill someone with it by gaming the system to flatten them is a NO from me due to the wording of the spell. Its either going to push them to the horizontal sides, which is the most logical direction. Or the victem is going to end up standing on top of the wall since there is no space down to push them into.
Good job. You've invented invisible carpet. :cool:
Now if you know the ground was soft under them and was using it to pin them. Seems viable. IF they dont pop up on top.
Set up right it could be an emergency "force push" up to 100ft! Though the targets should be getting a chance to duck under or leap on top as they are being pushed.
On the other hand setting the thing at head level while being chased by cultists on horseback to try and clothesline them? Sounds good to me. There is a chance they might notice and duck under it. If they can percieve it or realize its being cast. Hell. Use the wall of force as a bridge across a chasm and then cancel it if the enemy is stupid enough to follow across. Intelligence check? Unfortunately it cannot be dispelled by enemy casters while they are crossing.
Creative + Risk = good.
Creative - Risk = (probably) not good.
All that said. I could see doing a 1d6 roll for direction of push and giving the target a DEX save if its potentially lethal. Id rule any items carried would be destroyed though unless they fit in the space. Either that or it just does xd6 damage and if it doesnt kill them then the wall bumps or raises up or the ground craters, whatever fits the situation.
With of course the warning that if the PCs use it. Sooner or later the enemy will too. Hope your DEX saves are good. :eek:
Im still waiting for someone to figure a way to turn cloud kill into a mass healing effect... :confused:
Quote from: jibbajibba;783386Funny the same people say magical healing is not required because PCs need to play smart if they have no healing are saying that repeating the same smart tactics isn't fun. I also expect the same people use 10 foot poles to tap their way round dungeons and all the other standard MOs which aren't boring because?
They seem to be saying play like we play or you are having badwrongfun.
Just like Ladybird says it's fine if I try my tactic in front of observers and so my future enemies are able to prepare but it's a dick move if every random creature I meet has prepped a counter to the tactic. To me its no different to a railroad. I the DM have decided that I don't want your PCs to be able to do that so I have altered the world specifically to stop you doing it.
Jibba, I can only state my position, but I don't think you are playing wrong, or that you should play my way.
Based on your posts I would assume you have some very deadly and challenging battles, and that would make a healer desirable.
I am a huge fan of using good strategy and tactics, but also don't use 11' poles or find retreating when wounded a big deal.
To me its just an issue of how much the characters can handle; not an issue of must do it a certain way.
The railroad thing is tricky. I don't like railroads, but there is always some degree of railroading involved if you have a gm. No one is going to easily agree or define what railroading is though.
Quote from: Omega;783627Thats their problem. Not ours.
When I am the DM. (Which is usually) If someone comes up with a creative way to off monsters. Fine. But if they try to bend the rules to absurd levels. Or more importantly, try to off the monsters without any risk at all. Not that fine.
In the walls case. Trying to instakill someone with it by gaming the system to flatten them is a NO from me due to the wording of the spell. Its either going to push them to the horizontal sides, which is the most logical direction. Or the victem is going to end up standing on top of the wall since there is no space down to push them into.
Good job. You've invented invisible carpet. :cool:
Now if you know the ground was soft under them and was using it to pin them. Seems viable. IF they dont pop up on top.
Set up right it could be an emergency "force push" up to 100ft! Though the targets should be getting a chance to duck under or leap on top as they are being pushed.
On the other hand setting the thing at head level while being chased by cultists on horseback to try and clothesline them? Sounds good to me. There is a chance they might notice and duck under it. If they can percieve it or realize its being cast. Hell. Use the wall of force as a bridge across a chasm and then cancel it if the enemy is stupid enough to follow across. Intelligence check? Unfortunately it cannot be dispelled by enemy casters while they are crossing.
Creative + Risk = good.
Creative - Risk = (probably) not good.
All that said. I could see doing a 1d6 roll for direction of push and giving the target a DEX save if its potentially lethal. Id rule any items carried would be destroyed though unless they fit in the space. Either that or it just does xd6 damage and if it doesn't kill them then the wall bumps or raises up or the ground craters, whatever fits the situation.
With of course the warning that if the PCs use it. Sooner or later the enemy will too. Hope your DEX saves are good. :eek:
I'm still waiting for someone to figure a way to turn cloud kill into a mass healing effect... :confused:
See I just think it creates a wall. The rule is there to stop it being used to cut people in half. Should it be used to stop crushing people.... probably but I hate rules that work on the basis of - this is an x level spell so it can't deal automatic damage of y or have this effect. That to me smacks of the 4e make the effect match its cost/level rather than refer to what it does in the real world.
The idea that being creative but not removing risk is nuts. I am being creative entirely to eliminate risk, entirely to off monsters with no risk to me. That is why neanderthals drove mammoths over cliffs, that is why we domesticated animals so we could eat them without hunting, that is why we moved from sword to guns so you could kill people from a long way away with minimal risk of being stabbed by one of them.
Going back to the wall of force again. If I can't crush you to death can I trap you pinning you down? the most effective way to use this is probably to say roll a dice and randomly dertermin the side of the wall you end up. If ther eis an obstacle it will be the other side.
Force wall cast over a gap gives you a bridge.
A sloped force wall gives you a slide.
Cast force wall just above or in front of enemy war machines, and watch them hilariously misfire. Force wall over the arm of a trebuchet, and watch it fall apart. In front of a battering ram, watch it smash dead air.
Force wall in front of enemy riders = dead horses. and broken noses all round (I quite like the garrotte-esque idea, actually. That's really good.)
I probably wouldn't actually seriously use my crushing wall in a game, but if players wanted to, sure. Killing doesn't solve every problem.
Quote from: Omega;783627Creative + Risk = good.
Creative - Risk = (probably) not good.
But that's the core point.
Why carry a ten-foot-pole? To probe ahead for floor traps, to minimise risk. Why try to ambush someone? To stab them without the risk of them stabbing me back. Risk is inevitable, but nobody seriously wants to maximise their risk unless they are intentionally trying to die.
All these tools are there to help creative people minimise risk. The fact we are having this discussion shows how good a tool this spell is, and the spell was clearly written to enable this sort of use, that's why it is written the way it is; it's a good tool, well designed.
Quote from: jibbajibba;783653Going back to the wall of force again. If I can't crush you to death can I trap you pinning you down? the most effective way to use this is probably to say roll a dice and randomly dertermin the side of the wall you end up. If ther eis an obstacle it will be the other side.
I wouldn't have a problem with this being used to hold creatures down in a prone position. This would be pinning them down in a space that WAS large enough to accomodate them (horizontially). :)
"If the walls cuts through a creature's space when it appears, the creature is pushed to one side of the wall (Your choice which side)."
Would you define an edge as a side? Well, I wouldn't, but doing so seems legit.
Other fun uses of being able to put people where you like: someone's drowning, stuck in quicksand, whatever? Easy! Cast a wall parallel to the earth so it would go through them. Have them appear on the TOP. Now you've got 10 minutes to rescue them. It's not even as good as water walk for doing this! But it's fun. You used a spell in an innovative way.
It doesn't imply that the appearing on either side imparts momentum, so you couldn't use "edges count as sides" to create a railgun, but you could use it as an easy way of moving someone up to 100ft in a direction.
Quote from: Ladybird;783346The character will quickly realise that their tactic is highly effective.
What's highly effective for the goose is highly effective for the gander. Subject the party to a couple of scry-and-fry missions from NPCs and then ask if they still think it's legit.
But that has always been my problem with high level D&D. Given teleport, scrying, polymorph, magic jar, power word kill, etc. etc. smart players will come up with all sorts of ingenious and highly effective tactics. But if NPCs employ those same tactics it's TPK time. So either you hold back as the DM and let the players use tactics the NPCs can't, or D&D degenerates into a paranoid game of cat and mouse where ambush means annihilation.
Quote from: Haffrung;783715What's highly effective for the goose is highly effective for the gander. Subject the party to a couple of scry-and-fry missions from NPCs and then ask if they still think it's legit.
But that has always been my problem with high level D&D. Given teleport, scrying, polymorph, magic jar, power word kill, etc. etc. smart players will come up with all sorts of ingenious and highly effective tactics. But if NPCs employ those same tactics it's TPK time. So either you hold back as the DM and let the players use tactics the NPCs can't, or D&D degenerates into a paranoid game of cat and mouse where ambush means annihilation.
Or accept it, and play a game where cosmic-level superpowers can all obliterate each other in seconds, and know it, and know they all have contingency plans, so have to deal with each other in other ways.
Mutually Assured Dungeoneering, oh yeah.
Quote from: Ladybird;783719Or accept it, and play a game where cosmic-level superpowers can all obliterate each other in seconds, and know it, and know they all have contingency plans, so have to deal with each other in other ways.
Mutually Assured Dungeoneering, oh yeah.
What we need is a guide for handling this; best practices for high level creatures. I'm sure there must be plenty of those out there on the internet by now. They don't even need to be 5e, any edition other than 4e has similar issues.
Any recommendations?
Mearls has weighed in on the Force spells:
https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/505029785722957824
I guess I was right.
Quote: Originally Posted by Haffrung
"What's highly effective for the goose is highly effective for the gander. Subject the party to a couple of scry-and-fry missions from NPCs and then ask if they still think it's legit.
But that has always been my problem with high level D&D. Given teleport, scrying, polymorph, magic jar, power word kill, etc. etc. smart players will come up with all sorts of ingenious and highly effective tactics. But if NPCs employ those same tactics it's TPK time. So either you hold back as the DM and let the players use tactics the NPCs can't, or D&D degenerates into a paranoid game of cat and mouse where ambush means annihilation."
I agree with this. The problem as I see it is without the gm pulling punches, every other serious battle is a tpk. And that's a bit too frequent for my taste.
Quote from: Ladybird;783719Or accept it, and play a game where cosmic-level superpowers can all obliterate each other in seconds, and know it, and know they all have contingency plans, so have to deal with each other in other ways.
Mutually Assured Dungeoneering, oh yeah.
And that is great when everyone enjoys such a game, gets the message and the DM is up to the challenge.
Which, even with a very smart DM, is not guaranteed, seeing how doesn't just have to work the plethora of possible spell use, but all the usual DM work, together with, say, a job, family, studies and all that.
So, if you do want a game with one person superpowers that don't obliberate each other in seconds, but take a minute for it, like all decent folks do, rulings need to be made.
Thankfully, that has all always been theory to me. No matter how smart individually, my players where always mostly adept at getting their PCs killed, most often all at the same time. High level spell shenanigans never registered at a table I ran.
Quote from: Gold Roger;783776And that is great when everyone enjoys such a game, gets the message and the DM is up to the challenge.
Which, even with a very smart DM, is not guaranteed, seeing how doesn't just have to work the plethora of possible spell use, but all the usual DM work, together with, say, a job, family, studies and all that.
So, if you do want a game with one person superpowers that don't obliberate each other in seconds, but take a minute for it, like all decent folks do, rulings need to be made.
Thankfully, that has all always been theory to me. No matter how smart individually, my players where always mostly adept at getting their PCs killed, most often all at the same time. High level spell shenanigans never registered at a table I ran.
We used to run a game with high level wizards. It was much more like vance than d&d so most of the time we would be arguing and trying to get one up on each other we only used damage spells against monsters we would never use them against each other how gauch that would be. Likewise for other npc wizards. Of course due to ioun stones nested contingencies rings of spell turning and personal spells like Sankars Most Expedient Counterspell scry port fry wasn't really a risk. Not nearly as devastating as arriving at the Longstaves Ball in the same hat as another wizard.
Quote from: Haffrung;783715What's highly effective for the goose is highly effective for the gander. Subject the party to a couple of scry-and-fry missions from NPCs and then ask if they still think it's legit.
Or equally INEFFECTIVE. ;)
I am still at a loss as to how this scry/buff/teleport bullshit got touted as smart tactics in the first place. Probably by those who selectively use only the rules that they want I suppose.
Lets check out how these smart tactics might play out in 5E.
First we scry on our target assuming they don't have countermeasures for that or a few clever tricks to fool it.
So the scrying is successful and now we beef up and get ready to go kick some ass.
Once everyone is ready we teleport in and......hang on. If we just got a little look at the destination while scrying then we are teleporting to a place that we have viewed once.
This gives us a base 27% chance to arrive exactly where we want. A 43% chance to take damage during the journey prompting a reroll which could result in more damage/repeat, a 10% chance to arrive in an area similar to the one we are targeting, and a 20% chance of arriving way off target.
Sounds like a can't lose clever tactic to me. Not.
From the same WotC thread this comes from, this sounds like it is about high level spells, which should be powerful. I guess your 27th level fighter should have more of a chance than "save or die", so of course there should be an in between. But using the spells like loading a shell in a gun, in a very mechanistic way, no; I would as gm more likely have a magical contagion cause a magical coma than outright death.
Yes. But according to some here. At level 9 a wizard attains the ability to insta-kill anything. Ancient Red Dragon? Dead. Tarrisque? Dead. PCs? Dead. Wall of Force solves all. Game over.
Wait what?
It was me, just before I said...
Quote from: Ladybird;783273Yeah, it clearly can't actually work, because otherwise, wizards would have used it to end every confrontation ever.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;783856Or equally INEFFECTIVE. ;)
I am still at a loss as to how this scry/buff/teleport bullshit got touted as smart tactics in the first place. Probably by those who selectively use only the rules that they want I suppose.
Lets check out how these smart tactics might play out in 5E.
First we scry on our target assuming they don't have countermeasures for that or a few clever tricks to fool it.
So the scrying is successful and now we beef up and get ready to go kick some ass.
Once everyone is ready we teleport in and......hang on. If we just got a little look at the destination while scrying then we are teleporting to a place that we have viewed once.
This gives us a base 27% chance to arrive exactly where we want. A 43% chance to take damage during the journey prompting a reroll which could result in more damage/repeat, a 10% chance to arrive in an area similar to the one we are targeting, and a 20% chance of arriving way off target.
Sounds like a can't lose clever tactic to me. Not.
In 3e base chance is 76% for Teleport(5lvl) If using Greater Teleport(7lvl) it's automatic.
Quote from: Sommerjon;784433In 3e base chance is 76% for Teleport(5lvl) If using Greater Teleport(7lvl) it's automatic.
I'm happy to see the 5E design team wasn't quite as stupid.
So I started running a game tonight.
I have a smart player.
He is playing a wizard. He put all his points into WIZARD!
His wizard is smart.
Well, shit.
It would be interesting to see these spells in use at the appropriate levels and how the game goes from there.
Quote from: dragoner;784524It would be interesting to see these spells in use at the appropriate levels and how the game goes from there.
Fortunately for me, I'm running Advanced Fighting Fantasy 2, not D&D5 :) I have an entirely different set of problems to deal with!
Quote from: Ladybird;784536Fortunately for me, I'm running Advanced Fighting Fantasy 2, not D&D5 :) I have an entirely different set of problems to deal with!
You should have seen the gnashing of teeth on the WotC board, the obtuseness of the theory and tiny font make the arguments ultimately unintelligible.