Quote from: Ladybird;783719Or accept it, and play a game where cosmic-level superpowers can all obliterate each other in seconds, and know it, and know they all have contingency plans, so have to deal with each other in other ways.

Mutually Assured Dungeoneering, oh yeah.

And that is great when everyone enjoys such a game, gets the message and the DM is up to the challenge.
Which, even with a very smart DM, is not guaranteed, seeing how doesn't just have to work the plethora of possible spell use, but all the usual DM work, together with, say, a job, family, studies and all that.

So, if you do want a game with one person superpowers that don't obliberate each other in seconds, but take a minute for it, like all decent folks do, rulings need to be made.


Thankfully, that has all always been theory to me. No matter how smart individually, my players where always mostly adept at getting their PCs killed, most often all at the same time. High level spell shenanigans never registered at a table I ran.

Quote from: Gold Roger;783776And that is great when everyone enjoys such a game, gets the message and the DM is up to the challenge.
Which, even with a very smart DM, is not guaranteed, seeing how doesn't just have to work the plethora of possible spell use, but all the usual DM work, together with, say, a job, family, studies and all that.

So, if you do want a game with one person superpowers that don't obliberate each other in seconds, but take a minute for it, like all decent folks do, rulings need to be made.


Thankfully, that has all always been theory to me. No matter how smart individually, my players where always mostly adept at getting their PCs killed, most often all at the same time. High level spell shenanigans never registered at a table I ran.

We used to run a game with high level wizards. It was much more like vance than d&d so most of the time we would be arguing and trying to get one up on each other we only used damage spells against monsters we would never use them against each other how gauch that would be. Likewise for other npc wizards. Of course due to ioun stones nested contingencies rings of spell turning and personal spells like Sankars Most Expedient Counterspell scry port fry wasn't really a risk. Not nearly as devastating as arriving at the Longstaves Ball in the same hat as another wizard.

Quote from: Haffrung;783715What's highly effective for the goose is highly effective for the gander. Subject the party to a couple of scry-and-fry missions from NPCs and then ask if they still think it's legit.

Or equally INEFFECTIVE.

I am still at a loss as to how this scry/buff/teleport bullshit got touted as smart tactics in the first place. Probably by those who selectively use only the rules that they want I suppose.

Lets check out how these smart tactics might play out in 5E.

First we scry on our target assuming they don't have countermeasures for that or a few clever tricks to fool it.

So the scrying is successful and now we beef up and get ready to go kick some ass.

Once everyone is ready we teleport in and......hang on. If we just got a little look at the destination while scrying then we are teleporting to a place that we have viewed once.

This gives us a base 27% chance to arrive exactly where we want. A 43% chance to take damage during the journey prompting a reroll which could result in more damage/repeat, a 10% chance to arrive in an area similar to the one we are targeting, and a 20% chance of arriving way off target.

Sounds like a can't lose clever tactic to me. Not.

From the same WotC thread this comes from, this sounds like it is about high level spells, which should be powerful. I guess your 27th level fighter should have more of a chance than "save or die", so of course there should be an in between. But using the spells like loading a shell in a gun, in a very mechanistic way, no; I would as gm more likely have a magical contagion cause a magical coma than outright death.

Yes. But according to some here. At level 9 a wizard attains the ability to insta-kill anything. Ancient Red Dragon? Dead. Tarrisque? Dead. PCs? Dead. Wall of Force solves all. Game over.

Wait what?

It was me, just before I said...

Quote from: Ladybird;783273Yeah, it clearly can't actually work, because otherwise, wizards would have used it to end every confrontation ever.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;783856Or equally INEFFECTIVE.

I am still at a loss as to how this scry/buff/teleport bullshit got touted as smart tactics in the first place. Probably by those who selectively use only the rules that they want I suppose.

Lets check out how these smart tactics might play out in 5E.

First we scry on our target assuming they don't have countermeasures for that or a few clever tricks to fool it.

So the scrying is successful and now we beef up and get ready to go kick some ass.

Once everyone is ready we teleport in and......hang on. If we just got a little look at the destination while scrying then we are teleporting to a place that we have viewed once.

This gives us a base 27% chance to arrive exactly where we want. A 43% chance to take damage during the journey prompting a reroll which could result in more damage/repeat, a 10% chance to arrive in an area similar to the one we are targeting, and a 20% chance of arriving way off target.

Sounds like a can't lose clever tactic to me. Not.

In 3e base chance is 76% for Teleport(5lvl) If using Greater Teleport(7lvl) it's automatic.

Quote from: Sommerjon;784433In 3e base chance is 76% for Teleport(5lvl) If using Greater Teleport(7lvl) it's automatic.

I'm happy to see the 5E design team wasn't quite as stupid.

So I started running a game tonight.

I have a smart player.

He is playing a wizard. He put all his points into WIZARD!

His wizard is smart.

Well, shit.

It would be interesting to see these spells in use at the appropriate levels and how the game goes from there.

Quote from: dragoner;784524It would be interesting to see these spells in use at the appropriate levels and how the game goes from there.

Fortunately for me, I'm running Advanced Fighting Fantasy 2, not D&D5 I have an entirely different set of problems to deal with!

Quote from: Ladybird;784536Fortunately for me, I'm running Advanced Fighting Fantasy 2, not D&D5 I have an entirely different set of problems to deal with!

You should have seen the gnashing of teeth on the WotC board, the obtuseness of the theory and tiny font make the arguments ultimately unintelligible.