Quote from: Exploderwizard;783371I would rule that the space the creature is pushed into must be large enough to accomodate the creature.

Much like the enlarge spell cannot be used to lock a creature in a tiny space and crush it-the creature will only grow to a maximum size that the space allows.

That and the wall spell says nothing about squashing someone under it by push.

If you made a flat plane it would push them to the edges. Not up or down.

Now. If you can set i up by a pit or cliff... thats a different matter.

Quote from: Omega;783373That and the wall spell says nothing about squashing someone under it by push.

If you made a flat plane it would push them to the edges. Not up or down.

Now. If you can set i up by a pit or cliff... thats a different matter.

Certainly.

If you happen to create the wall at the edge of a cliff above a lava pit and it passed through someone standing at the ledge..... buh bye.

Funny the same people say magical healing is not required because PCs need to play smart if they have no healing are saying that repeating the same smart tactics isn't fun. I also expect the same people use 10 foot poles to tap their way round dungeons and all the other standard MOs which aren't boring because?

They seem to be saying play like we play or you are having badwrongfun.

Just like Ladybird says it's fine if I try my tactic in front of observers and so my future enemies are able to prepare but it's a dick move if every random creature I meet has prepped a counter to the tactic. To me its no different to a railroad. I the DM have decided that I don't want your PCs to be able to do that so I have altered the world specifically to stop you doing it.

Quote from: jibbajibba;783386Just like Ladybird says it's fine if I try my tactic in front of observers and so my future enemies are able to prepare but it's a dick move if every random creature I meet has prepped a counter to the tactic. To me its no different to a railroad. I the DM have decided that I don't want your PCs to be able to do that so I have altered the world specifically to stop you doing it.

For the record I'm really not implying that I want to do any of that.

My response was to the people (mostly elsewhere than here) complaining that Wizards are "too powerful" or always have an auto-win ability for every battle, leaving the other characters in the side lines. I'd argue that the GM can mess around with the environmental conditions to make things a bit less predictable for the spell casters. Not in the same way every time or deliberately neutralizing all of the character's abilities.

My point is that the GM can tailor encounters in atypical ways. Perhaps the creature is immune to non-magical weapons, or the magic circle prohibits Ice magic, or everything in the terrain is super flammable and explosive, or the troll can only die by a lightning bolt, or only quadrupedal animals are allowed inside the grove.

All of these types of limitations encourage the Wizard (and other spell casters) to pick and choose the right "tools" for the job. This can be really fun and rewarding if some investigation before hand can tip the players about these quirks so that they can prepare.

Quote from: jibbajibba;783386Funny the same people say magical healing is not required because PCs need to play smart if they have no healing are saying that repeating the same smart tactics isn't fun. I also expect the same people use 10 foot poles to tap their way round dungeons and all the other standard MOs which aren't boring because?

They seem to be saying play like we play or you are having badwrongfun.

Thats their problem. Not ours.

When I am the DM. (Which is usually) If someone comes up with a creative way to off monsters. Fine. But if they try to bend the rules to absurd levels. Or more importantly, try to off the monsters without any risk at all. Not that fine.

In the walls case. Trying to instakill someone with it by gaming the system to flatten them is a NO from me due to the wording of the spell. Its either going to push them to the horizontal sides, which is the most logical direction. Or the victem is going to end up standing on top of the wall since there is no space down to push them into.
Good job. You've invented invisible carpet. :cool:

Now if you know the ground was soft under them and was using it to pin them. Seems viable. IF they dont pop up on top.

Set up right it could be an emergency "force push" up to 100ft! Though the targets should be getting a chance to duck under or leap on top as they are being pushed.

On the other hand setting the thing at head level while being chased by cultists on horseback to try and clothesline them? Sounds good to me. There is a chance they might notice and duck under it. If they can percieve it or realize its being cast. Hell. Use the wall of force as a bridge across a chasm and then cancel it if the enemy is stupid enough to follow across. Intelligence check? Unfortunately it cannot be dispelled by enemy casters while they are crossing.

Creative + Risk = good.
Creative - Risk = (probably) not good.

All that said. I could see doing a 1d6 roll for direction of push and giving the target a DEX save if its potentially lethal. Id rule any items carried would be destroyed though unless they fit in the space. Either that or it just does xd6 damage and if it doesnt kill them then the wall bumps or raises up or the ground craters, whatever fits the situation.

With of course the warning that if the PCs use it. Sooner or later the enemy will too. Hope your DEX saves are good. :eek:

Im still waiting for someone to figure a way to turn cloud kill into a mass healing effect... :confused:

Quote from: jibbajibba;783386Funny the same people say magical healing is not required because PCs need to play smart if they have no healing are saying that repeating the same smart tactics isn't fun. I also expect the same people use 10 foot poles to tap their way round dungeons and all the other standard MOs which aren't boring because?

They seem to be saying play like we play or you are having badwrongfun.

Just like Ladybird says it's fine if I try my tactic in front of observers and so my future enemies are able to prepare but it's a dick move if every random creature I meet has prepped a counter to the tactic. To me its no different to a railroad. I the DM have decided that I don't want your PCs to be able to do that so I have altered the world specifically to stop you doing it.

Jibba, I can only state my position, but I don't think you are playing wrong, or that you should play my way.

Based on your posts I would assume you have some very deadly and challenging battles, and that would make a healer desirable.  

I am a huge fan of using good strategy and tactics, but also don't use 11' poles or find retreating when wounded a big deal.

 To me its just an issue of how much the characters can handle; not an issue of must do it a certain way.



The railroad thing is tricky. I don't like railroads, but there is always some degree of railroading involved if you have a gm. No one is going to easily agree or define what railroading is though.

Quote from: Omega;783627Thats their problem. Not ours.

When I am the DM. (Which is usually) If someone comes up with a creative way to off monsters. Fine. But if they try to bend the rules to absurd levels. Or more importantly, try to off the monsters without any risk at all. Not that fine.

In the walls case. Trying to instakill someone with it by gaming the system to flatten them is a NO from me due to the wording of the spell. Its either going to push them to the horizontal sides, which is the most logical direction. Or the victem is going to end up standing on top of the wall since there is no space down to push them into.
Good job. You've invented invisible carpet. :cool:

Now if you know the ground was soft under them and was using it to pin them. Seems viable. IF they dont pop up on top.

Set up right it could be an emergency "force push" up to 100ft! Though the targets should be getting a chance to duck under or leap on top as they are being pushed.

On the other hand setting the thing at head level while being chased by cultists on horseback to try and clothesline them? Sounds good to me. There is a chance they might notice and duck under it. If they can percieve it or realize its being cast. Hell. Use the wall of force as a bridge across a chasm and then cancel it if the enemy is stupid enough to follow across. Intelligence check? Unfortunately it cannot be dispelled by enemy casters while they are crossing.

Creative + Risk = good.
Creative - Risk = (probably) not good.

All that said. I could see doing a 1d6 roll for direction of push and giving the target a DEX save if its potentially lethal. Id rule any items carried would be destroyed though unless they fit in the space. Either that or it just does xd6 damage and if it doesn't kill them then the wall bumps or raises up or the ground craters, whatever fits the situation.

With of course the warning that if the PCs use it. Sooner or later the enemy will too. Hope your DEX saves are good. :eek:

I'm still waiting for someone to figure a way to turn cloud kill into a mass healing effect... :confused:

See I just think it creates a wall. The rule is there to stop it being used to cut people in half. Should it be used to stop crushing people.... probably but I hate rules that work on the basis of - this is an x level spell so it can't deal automatic damage of y or have this effect. That to me smacks of the 4e make the effect match its cost/level  rather than refer to what it does in the real world.
The idea that being creative but not removing risk is nuts. I am being creative entirely to eliminate risk, entirely to off monsters with no risk to me. That is why neanderthals drove mammoths over cliffs, that is why we domesticated animals so we could eat them without hunting, that is why we moved from sword to guns so you could kill people from a long way away with minimal risk of being stabbed by one of them.

Going back to the wall of force again. If I can't crush you to death can I trap you pinning you down? the most effective way to use this is probably to say roll a dice and randomly dertermin the side of the wall you end up. If ther eis an obstacle it will be the other side.

Force wall cast over a gap gives you a bridge.

A sloped force wall gives you a slide.

Cast force wall just above or in front of enemy war machines, and watch them hilariously misfire. Force wall over the arm of a trebuchet, and watch it fall apart. In front of a battering ram, watch it smash dead air.

Force wall in front of enemy riders = dead horses. and broken noses all round (I quite like the garrotte-esque idea, actually. That's really good.)

I probably wouldn't actually seriously use my crushing wall in a game, but if players wanted to, sure. Killing doesn't solve every problem.

Quote from: Omega;783627Creative + Risk = good.
Creative - Risk = (probably) not good.

But that's the core point.

Why carry a ten-foot-pole? To probe ahead for floor traps, to minimise risk. Why try to ambush someone? To stab them without the risk of them stabbing me back. Risk is inevitable, but nobody seriously wants to maximise their risk unless they are intentionally trying to die.

All these tools are there to help creative people minimise risk. The fact we are having this discussion shows how good a tool this spell is, and the spell was clearly written to enable this sort of use, that's why it is written the way it is; it's a good tool, well designed.

Quote from: jibbajibba;783653Going back to the wall of force again. If I can't crush you to death can I trap you pinning you down? the most effective way to use this is probably to say roll a dice and randomly dertermin the side of the wall you end up. If ther eis an obstacle it will be the other side.

I wouldn't have a problem with this being used to hold creatures down in a prone position. This would be pinning them down in a space that WAS large enough to accomodate them (horizontially).

"If the walls cuts through a creature's space when it appears, the creature is pushed to one side of the wall (Your choice which side)."

Would you define an edge as a side? Well, I wouldn't, but doing so seems legit.

Other fun uses of being able to put people where you like: someone's drowning, stuck in quicksand, whatever? Easy! Cast a wall parallel to the earth so it would go through them. Have them appear on the TOP. Now you've got 10 minutes to rescue them. It's not even as good as water walk for doing this! But it's fun. You used a spell in an innovative way.

It doesn't imply that the appearing on either side imparts momentum, so you couldn't use "edges count as sides" to create a railgun, but you could use it as an easy way of moving someone up to 100ft in a direction.

Quote from: Ladybird;783346The character will quickly realise that their tactic is highly effective.

What's highly effective for the goose is highly effective for the gander. Subject the party to a couple of scry-and-fry missions from NPCs and then ask if they still think it's legit.

But that has always been my problem with high level D&D. Given teleport, scrying, polymorph, magic jar, power word kill, etc. etc. smart players will come up with all sorts of ingenious and highly effective tactics. But if NPCs employ those same tactics it's TPK time. So either you hold back as the DM and let the players use tactics the NPCs can't, or D&D degenerates into a paranoid game of cat and mouse where ambush means annihilation.

Quote from: Haffrung;783715What's highly effective for the goose is highly effective for the gander. Subject the party to a couple of scry-and-fry missions from NPCs and then ask if they still think it's legit.

But that has always been my problem with high level D&D. Given teleport, scrying, polymorph, magic jar, power word kill, etc. etc. smart players will come up with all sorts of ingenious and highly effective tactics. But if NPCs employ those same tactics it's TPK time. So either you hold back as the DM and let the players use tactics the NPCs can't, or D&D degenerates into a paranoid game of cat and mouse where ambush means annihilation.

Or accept it, and play a game where cosmic-level superpowers can all obliterate each other in seconds, and know it, and know they all have contingency plans, so have to deal with each other in other ways.

Mutually Assured Dungeoneering, oh yeah.

Quote from: Ladybird;783719Or accept it, and play a game where cosmic-level superpowers can all obliterate each other in seconds, and know it, and know they all have contingency plans, so have to deal with each other in other ways.

Mutually Assured Dungeoneering, oh yeah.

What we need is a guide for handling this; best practices for high level creatures. I'm sure there must be plenty of those out there on the internet by now. They don't even need to be 5e, any edition other than 4e has similar issues.

Any recommendations?

Mearls has weighed in on the Force spells:

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/505029785722957824

I guess I was right.

Quote: Originally Posted by Haffrung  
"What's highly effective for the goose is highly effective for the gander. Subject the party to a couple of scry-and-fry missions from NPCs and then ask if they still think it's legit.

But that has always been my problem with high level D&D. Given teleport, scrying, polymorph, magic jar, power word kill, etc. etc. smart players will come up with all sorts of ingenious and highly effective tactics. But if NPCs employ those same tactics it's TPK time. So either you hold back as the DM and let the players use tactics the NPCs can't, or D&D degenerates into a paranoid game of cat and mouse where ambush means annihilation."


I agree with this. The problem as I see it is without the gm pulling punches, every other serious battle is a tpk. And that's a bit too frequent for my taste.