Quote from: Sacrosanct;783144It's 3x as powerful as the druid's wildshape for example, which is at a 3:1 ratio.

But Wildshape is much, much, much better in other ways.

Not only is no Concentration required, but also you retain your own mental abilities, and skills, and saving throws if yours are higher, and class abilities if they make sense, and racial abilities if they make sense, and feats if they make sense.


Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Polymorph is a bad spell, its a very good spell. I just don't think its game breaking.

Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;783142...
Forcecage - It's a big impenetrable cage that can't easily be dispelled. That's fair for its level. I'm not seeing how it's particularly different from previous editions - and it wasn't a real problem then.

...
Wall of Force - It's just like the previous editions of Wall of Force. It's an impenetrable wall of force that can't be dispelled. It's a staple of the game, and this version is weaker than previous editions because it requires concentration to keep it up.

I think the major issue people have is the fact that these don't offer any kind of saving throw.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;783144True, but the overall point still stands.  The way CR is designed, using a 1:1 ratio to level seems overpowered.  It's 3x as powerful as the druid's wildshape for example, which is at a 3:1 ratio.

How many 5th level characters are this tough:

Triceratops
Huge beast, unaligned
Armor Class 13 (natural armor)
Hit Points 95 (10d12 + 30)
Speed 50 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
22 (+6) 9 (−1) 17 (+3) 2 (−4) 11 (+0) 5 (−3)
Senses passive Perception 10
Languages —
Challenge 5 (1,800 XP)
Trampling Charge. If the triceratops moves at least 20 feet straight toward a creature and then hits it with a gore attack on the same turn, that target must succeed on a DC 13 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone. If the target is prone, the triceratops can make one stomp attack against it as a bonus action.
Actions
Gore. Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 24 (4d8 + 6) piercing damage.
Stomp. Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 5 ft.,one prone creature. Hit: 22 (3d10 + 6) bludgeoning damage

You know what I'm seeing there?

INT 2


Sure you have the body of a tough dinosaur but you have the pea brain to go with it. I'm not entirely sure if an INT 2 creature understands the concept of "allies" that are not of the same species.

Loads of fun as random targets (friends and foes) get gored and trampled.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;783155You know what I'm seeing there?

INT 2


Sure you have the body of a tough dinosaur but you have the pea brain to go with it. I'm not entirely sure if an INT 2 creature understands the concept of "allies" that are not of the same species.

Loads of fun as random targets (friends and foes) get gored and trampled.

This is an excellent point.  I'm sure someone would scour the books looking for the right beasts that would be better to avoid effectively turning themselves into a DM controlled NPC

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;783100Ok, trying that again, do the following 5e spells that people have been complaining about (specifically that they are too strong or impossible to overcome) seem problematic to you guys or is it all "white room" fretting?

Some of it is just people handling any form of ambiguity poorly. Most RPGers will have no issue with dealing with these spells at the table.

Case in point, Blacky (correctly) uses consistency and logic to overcome the ambiguity rather than sticking to a literal reading of the words regardless:

Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;783142On the other hand, if you interpret the spell as working like the Flesh to Stone spell (which is a similar three-save mechanic) or like death saves when you run out of hit points (which again uses the same three-save mechanic) then the problem entirely disappears. Only after failing three saves does the big monster get the horrible disease effect, and that's a lot fairer.

Personally, I think that while the wording is definitely ambiguous the latter interpretation is obviously the correct one - both in terms of consistency with other similar effects and in terms of game fun.

Otherwise, a lot of people only just seem to be understanding how cool the new Concentration mechanic actually is. This helps a lot.

Assuming we go with the "gradual onset" interpretation of contagion, my only problem would be conceptual: i.e., how a "disease" could affect constructs and undead that don't have anything approaching a normal biology. I'd probably just houserule that they are immune.

I have no issues with Forcecage or Wall of Force.

I've already indicated that I'd probably apply -2 to the conversion of "level" to CR rating for characters by the True Polymorph spell. I might even go -3. That still allows the spell to be extremely powerful and useful.  For monsters that already have a CR rating, I'd just use it as is.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;783153I think the major issue people have is the fact that these don't offer any kind of saving throw.

Save against a wall sounds bit odd to me.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;783155You know what I'm seeing there?

INT 2


Sure you have the body of a tough dinosaur but you have the pea brain to go with it. I'm not entirely sure if an INT 2 creature understands the concept of "allies" that are not of the same species.

Loads of fun as random targets (friends and foes) get gored and trampled.

That's still an Int score. It would be a bit of a dick move to take control away from the player just because they used a smart play, and the triceratops would still have the character's personality.

OTOH, if one of my characters got turned into a Triceratops, I'd use the following behaviour guide;
IF something is trying to hurt me or my herd (Rest of party counts as this)
THEN trample / gore it until it stops trying to hurt us
ELSE why should I give a shit, I'm a fucking dinosaur, time to go grazing

Quote from: Exploderwizard;783137I think there are several spells where the omission of mentioning component consumption was a goof.

Looking at 'Drawmij's Instant Summons', where the component is a not consumed sapphire that you have to crush, it seems that while list components that are 'consumed by the spell' it doesn't necessarily mean you can automatically reuse the component.

So I think in the case of Forcecage (or any other spell requiring dust), I would very much rule that if you want your ruby dust back, your going to have to find a good way of picking it all up of the floor.

A billion years ago, when all these games were first invented, every fantasy game I can think of had spells that were powerful, often in weird ways. The correct reaction is to look at it as something that just is. It is a power that exists in the world. And then ask yourself what else is possible that somehow counter acts it, or interacts with it. Maybe a spell does something spectacular, but it is known only by an insane hermit who will teach it to you, but only with some remarkable condition.

Quote from: jadrax;783187Looking at 'Drawmij's Instant Summons', where the component is a not consumed sapphire that you have to crush, it seems that while list components that are 'consumed by the spell' it doesn't necessarily mean you can automatically reuse the component.

So I think in the case of Forcecage (or any other spell requiring dust), I would very much rule that if you want your ruby dust back, your going to have to find a good way of picking it all up of the floor.

Create a spell that picks up all of the diamond dust and puts it back in your pouch. Awkward, but it'll pay for itself, and wizzies are lazy buggers, plus it would double the spell slots required.

Quote from: Skywalker;783164Save against a wall sounds bit odd to me.

It's the entrapping sphere part that causes consternation, especially since it leaves the target visible for further spell effects. Compare it to Hold Monster, which is also 5th level and not only allows a save but grants another every turn, or the 6th level wall of ice that can also form entrapping spheres but can be battered through and probably blocks line of sight.

Quote from: Ladybird;783195Create a spell that picks up all of the diamond dust and puts it back in your pouch. Awkward, but it'll pay for itself, and wizzies are lazy buggers, plus it would double the spell slots required.

I think the existing basic cantrips can already do this, no need to create new ones.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;783198I think the existing basic cantrips can already do this, no need to create new ones.

Mage Hand and Prestidigitation don't quite look fine-grained enough to me (Diamond dust would be awful to pick up, I imagine it as being like toner crossed with ground glass), plus this is a pretty nice effect, so let's go for...

Dyson's Fantasia, 1st-level transmutation
Casting time - 1 action
Range - (Spell Level) metres
Components - V, S
Duration - Instantaneous
When the caster casts this spell, they imagine a particular type of item (For example, dust of a particular type, coins of a particular denomination, flowers or a particular type), no larger than a coin. The spell produces an invisible, magical helper that picks up all instances of that object within range and deposits them instantly within a container on the wizard's person. If there are sufficient of the items that they would not fit in the container, the container will burst.
Higher-level spell slots: for items which have been used as M components for spells, as they still contain some residual magical energy, this spell must be cast using a spell slot of equal or higher level in order to handle them.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;783197It's the entrapping sphere part that causes consternation, especially since it leaves the target visible for further spell effects. Compare it to Hold Monster, which is also 5th level and not only allows a save but grants another every turn, or the 6th level wall of ice that can also form entrapping spheres but can be battered through and probably blocks line of sight.

From my experiences of previous editions, the ability to teleport (or be teleported out of it) out of it has generally been seen as the spell's primary "out" (along with disintegration).

Also, the Wall of Force doesn't stop the target from casting spells or doing other things, including those that have effects beyond the Wall provided they are not of physical in nature. As such, its advantage, whilst potentially devastating, is somewhat more circumstantial compared to Hold Monster, Wall of Ice or Forcecage.