EDIT: Shit, that wasn't meant to come off as spamming. I was just trying to save time and avoid repeats while examining the issue with a very different cohort of people I like to listen to.

Ok, trying that again, do the following 5e spells that people have been complaining about (specifically that they are too strong or impossible to overcome) seem problematic to you guys or is it all "white room" fretting?

Contagion, Forcecage, Polymorph, True Polymorph, Wall of Force.

Spamming for enworld? I hate that.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;783100EDIT: Shit, that wasn't meant to come off as spamming. I was just trying to save time and avoid repeats while examining the issue with a very different cohort of people I like to listen to.

Ok, trying that again, do the following 5e spells that people have been complaining about (specifically that they are too strong or impossible to overcome) seem problematic to you guys or is it all "white room" fretting?

Contagion, Forcecage, Polymorph, True Polymorph, Wall of Force.

White Room fretting. Concentration is a big deal and the higher the level the spell and character using it the more likely it will be broken. That is on purpose ala Mearls. They wanted high level spells to be deadly but major decision/strategy/tactical decisions.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;783100EDIT: Shit, that wasn't meant to come off as spamming. I was just trying to save time and avoid repeats while examining the issue with a very different cohort of people I like to listen to.

Ok, trying that again, do the following 5e spells that people have been complaining about (specifically that they are too strong or impossible to overcome) seem problematic to you guys or is it all "white room" fretting?

Contagion, Forcecage, Polymorph, True Polymorph, Wall of Force.

Sorry, pet peeve of mine. In my experience, everything is breakable at some point, that can apply to both the game and the spells.

I agree with Marleycat, it does sound like white room fretting.

Quote from: Marleycat;783113White Room fretting. Concentration is a big deal and the higher the level the spell and character using it the more likely it will be broken. That is on purpose ala Mearls. They wanted high level spells to be deadly but major decision/strategy/tactical decisions.

Yeah cuz those white room fretters didn't think about that one time where we had this thing that happened cuz, you know we play the game with people thing you know, cuz yeah.

Quote from: Sommerjon;783115Yeah cuz those white room fretters didn't think about that one time where we had this thing that happened cuz, you know we play the game with people thing you know, cuz yeah.

Care to contribute like an adult, or are you content to act like usual?


As far as the OP, I think there are problems with the polymorph spells particularly.  They way the game is designed, a party of 4 PCs will have a challenge with an equal CR creature.

Polymorph changes that from a 4:1 ratio to 1:1 ratio, which can result in some really powerful PCs.  And true polymorph makes it permanent.  You can see how people would really try to exploit this.  For example, you could turn your 6th level PC (or henchmen) into a chimera, which is a LOT more powerful than any other level 6 PC.


Chimera
Large monstrosity, chaotic evil
Armor Class 14 (natural armor)
Hit Points 114 (12d10 + 48)
Speed 30 ft., fly 60 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
19 (+4) 11 (+0) 19 (+4) 3 (−4) 14 (+2) 10 (+0)
Skills Perception +8
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 18
Languages understands Draconic but can't speak
Challenge 6 (2,300 XP)
Actions
Multiattack. The chimera makes three attacks: one with its bite, one with its horns, and one with its claws. When its fire breath is available, it can use the breath in place of its bite or horns.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) piercing damage.
Horns. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 10 (1d12 + 4) bludgeoning damage.
Claws. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) slashing damage.
Fire Breath (Recharge 5–6). The dragon head exhales fire in a 15-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw, taking 31 (7d8) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

I wouldn't say broken so much as 'may have a huge impact if used cleverly'

Even if those spells prove very effective, presumably the enemies of the characters will also have such spells.

It's not a new thing; in 1E dnd spells like wall of force are amazing.

In my games certain spells will still call for a system shock check (or CON save) and others will still age the caster (another CON save).

Lets see how many people line up to get polymorphed when it could kill them?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;783100EDIT: Shit, that wasn't meant to come off as spamming. I was just trying to save time and avoid repeats while examining the issue with a very different cohort of people I like to listen to.

Ok, trying that again, do the following 5e spells that people have been complaining about (specifically that they are too strong or impossible to overcome) seem problematic to you guys or is it all "white room" fretting?

Contagion, Forcecage, Polymorph, True Polymorph, Wall of Force.

The only interesting thing that came out of that thread for me was that some spells have components that you would really think would be consumed but are not.

To my mind if a spell takes 1,500 gp of ruby dust to cast, you should not be able to sweep it up afterwards and use it again.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;783117Chimera
Large monstrosity, chaotic evil

This creature is not a Beast, so you would need True Polymorph.

Quote from: jadrax;783133To my mind if a spell takes 1,500 gp of ruby dust to cast, you should not be able to sweep it up afterwards and use it again.

I think there are several spells where the omission of mentioning component consumption was a goof.

Identify- a single 100gp pearl and an owl feather and you are set for repeated castings.

Contagion - The big issue with this is the interpretation of the spell effects. It's clear that if you fail three saves then you've got the full effects of the disease for the seven day duration. It's also clear that if you make three saves you're fine. The ambiguity is about what happens on the first two or three rounds while you're making those saves.

Since the effects of some of the diseases can be quite nasty (e.g. double damage from all sources or stunned any time you take damage), if you take the full effects of the disease during the time in which you're making saving throws (which is one possible interpretation) then it means you can automatically give any creature one of those powerful effects for at least three rounds. Even "legendary" creatures with special abilities that let them automatically make saving throws can't throw off the effect during that time - and those are exactly the sort of big powerful creatures that you want to be able to do double damage to or to stun.

So if you take that interpretation then the spell can make fights against a big "solo" creature quite un-fun. That ancient dragon might have lots of nice abilities, but if it's stunned for at least three rounds with no save then the party can do a lot of beating on it during that time.

On the other hand, if you interpret the spell as working like the Flesh to Stone spell (which is a similar three-save mechanic) or like death saves when you run out of hit points (which again uses the same three-save mechanic) then the problem entirely disappears. Only after failing three saves does the big monster get the horrible disease effect, and that's a lot fairer.

Personally, I think that while the wording is definitely ambiguous the latter interpretation is obviously the correct one - both in terms of consistency with other similar effects and in terms of game fun.

But others favour the much more powerful first interpretation and then call the spell overpowered or broken.

Forcecage - It's a big impenetrable cage that can't easily be dispelled. That's fair for its level. I'm not seeing how it's particularly different from previous editions - and it wasn't a real problem then.

Polymorph - I'm not sure what the problem is supposed to be with this spell. It's probably the weakest version of the spell in any edition. It only turns people into animals ("beasts" as opposed to "monstrosities") and its even had the old turn-them-into-a-fish-and-watch-them-drown exploit removed because when they run out of hit points they turn back to normal at whatever state of health they were in before they were polymorphed. It doesn't do weird things with stacking scores (your abilities - physical and mental - are replaced with those of the chosen animal) and although you retain your personality you only have the mental stats of the animal so you can't talk or think or cast spells.

And the caster has to keep concentrating for an hour.

I'm really not seeing how any of this is a problem. What are people even complaining about with this one?

True Polymorph - This one is much more powerful since it lets you turn the target into any kind of creature (or even into an inanimate object). But then it's a 9th level spell competing with things like Time Stop and Meteor Swarm and Wish so it deserves to be good.

Wall of Force - It's just like the previous editions of Wall of Force. It's an impenetrable wall of force that can't be dispelled. It's a staple of the game, and this version is weaker than previous editions because it requires concentration to keep it up.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;783100EDIT: Shit, that wasn't meant to come off as spamming. I was just trying to save time and avoid repeats while examining the issue with a very different cohort of people I like to listen to.

Ok, trying that again, do the following 5e spells that people have been complaining about (specifically that they are too strong or impossible to overcome) seem problematic to you guys or is it all "white room" fretting?

Contagion, Forcecage, Polymorph, True Polymorph, Wall of Force.

Pfft. Not worried about it. Those spells were never an issue in my previous editions of D&D, they're less so now. This hand-wringing is coming from GM's that the rules be the game.

So someone turns the party into Chimera - so what? They can all kill other equal CR monsters (I don't even like CR... I can make a CR1 mobs deadly to a party of level 4 PC in a lot of circumstances) - you could tax their XP because they're gaining it in a foreign form, have an NPC adventuring party do the same thing to them (they're Chimera after all - kill them!) or any number of possibilities that if the PC's can do it - so can others. And keeping them in context with the world - if they're smart enough to turn themselves into magical monstrosities to kill a monstrosity - Great for them!

If they do that as their "go to" method - use your GM skills to challenge that assumption. That's your job.

Quote from: jadrax;783136This creature is not a Beast, so you would need True Polymorph.

True, but the overall point still stands.  The way CR is designed, using a 1:1 ratio to level seems overpowered.  It's 3x as powerful as the druid's wildshape for example, which is at a 3:1 ratio.

How many 5th level characters are this tough:

Triceratops
Huge beast, unaligned
Armor Class 13 (natural armor)
Hit Points 95 (10d12 + 30)
Speed 50 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
22 (+6) 9 (−1) 17 (+3) 2 (−4) 11 (+0) 5 (−3)
Senses passive Perception 10
Languages —
Challenge 5 (1,800 XP)
Trampling Charge. If the triceratops moves at least 20 feet straight toward a creature and then hits it with a gore attack on the same turn, that target must succeed on a DC 13 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone. If the target is prone, the triceratops can make one stomp attack against it as a bonus action.
Actions
Gore. Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 24 (4d8 + 6) piercing damage.
Stomp. Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 5 ft.,one prone creature. Hit: 22 (3d10 + 6) bludgeoning damage

Quote from: Sacrosanct;783117Care to contribute like an adult, or are you content to act like usual?

Why should I care?

Whatever I say you'll dismiss automatically anyways.