Wasn't Gygax involved in Tactics II ?

Sadly there were huge plans with Troll Lord for the full release of Yggsburgh (essentially Castle Zagyg/Greyhawk) for Castles & Crusades, but when Gary died, his widow pulled the project and has resisted its publication since from what I understand.  You can still get some of the Troll Lord Yggsburgh stuff on ebay, though prices vary widely.  I've never seen it, so I can't comment on quality.

Quote from: GamerforHire on April 19, 2023, 08:50:20 AM
I have always thought that, in the debate over the relative impact/importance of Gygax and Arneson, the fact that Arneson published so amazingly little and left such a long trail of unfulfilled promises and undelivered games speaks volumes about Arneson. If Gygax merely "typed up Arneson's notes" as some people insist is the accurate version of the story, then why is it that Arneson subsequently produced extremely little and Gygax an entire shelf of content—all while Gygax "managed" a company expanding by leaps and bounds.

(I put "managed" in quotes because most business experts question the wisdom of many of his choices. Nonetheless, making those choices unquestionably ate up time and energy.)

This is always a tough discussion because so many folks seem to be very passionate about it and everyone wants to take a side for one reason or another. My thoughts:

(1) I don't think anyone every really said that Gygax merely typed up Arneson's notes. Arneson had the idea well before he demoed the game for Gygax, Arneson shared notes with Gygax, Gygax took the concept and the notes and wrote a marketable product. D&D couldn't have happened without both.

(2) Gygax wrote a lot of stuff. He wrote articles on Diplomacy and wargames long before D&D and was really into contributing his ideas whenever and wherever he could do so. Gygax thought he could write fiction and got several books published. Gygax went to message boards and engaged in conversation with fans. Gygax never missed an opportunity to promote his products. While Arneson did publish some articles and products, Gygax clearly wins the "quantity" competition because he loved to write stuff.

(3) Gygax' biggest skill seems to be the ability to take someone else's ideas and build upon them. I don't mean this as a slam on Gygax, but if you look at his biggest successes they always seem to be built on someone else's ideas. For "Chainmail" Gygax took Jerr Perrin's medieval miniatures rules set and expanded upon those. The "Alexader the Great" board game that he did for Avalon Hill was done by revising Don Greenwood's original game. "Don't Give Up the Ship" was co-written with Arneson, bur Arneson is the one known for his knowledge of old sailing ships. "Boot Hill" was based on a previous unpublished western RPG written by Brian Blume. Gygax was an organizer and had a great way with words, but it's possible that he never had lightning strike twice in RPG design because he tried to do it alone later in life instead of collaborating with others.

(4) Arneson, on the other hand, was full of ideas but apparently unable to organize them into publishable material. Looking at his "Temple of the Frog" scenario in the Blackmoor supplement for OD&D (which I understand was also edited somewhat) you can see some great potential but the final product requires a lot of tinkering to actually run as a scenario. "First Fantasy Campaign" (one of my all-time favorite PRG products, by the way) reads like someone's notes rather than a complete setting. His "Adventures in Fantasy" RPG is interesting but a bit unorganized. I suspect that the success of his Shadowrun and ME&PE products were tied closely to editors and not just his ideas. This might explain why he published so much less than Gygax, as his stuff required more work to get publish-ready.

Each contributed to his favorite hobby in his own way. I dislike the whole stance that one was "better" than the other, since their strengths didn't really overlap but instead built on each other. Gygax was nearly a decade older than Arneson, and I wonder if this might have contributed to the friction between them since sometimes an older person comes off as a "mentor" instead of an equal. I just wish they had collaborated on more projects over the years.

Quote from: finarvyn on June 10, 2023, 11:30:54 AM

Quote from: GamerforHire on April 19, 2023, 08:50:20 AM
I have always thought that, in the debate over the relative impact/importance of Gygax and Arneson, the fact that Arneson published so amazingly little and left such a long trail of unfulfilled promises and undelivered games speaks volumes about Arneson. If Gygax merely "typed up Arneson's notes" as some people insist is the accurate version of the story, then why is it that Arneson subsequently produced extremely little and Gygax an entire shelf of content—all while Gygax "managed" a company expanding by leaps and bounds.

(I put "managed" in quotes because most business experts question the wisdom of many of his choices. Nonetheless, making those choices unquestionably ate up time and energy.)

This is always a tough discussion because so many folks seem to be very passionate about it and everyone wants to take a side for one reason or another. My thoughts:

(1) I don't think anyone every really said that Gygax merely typed up Arneson's notes. Arneson had the idea well before he demoed the game for Gygax, Arneson shared notes with Gygax, Gygax took the concept and the notes and wrote a marketable product. D&D couldn't have happened without both.

(2) Gygax wrote a lot of stuff. He wrote articles on Diplomacy and wargames long before D&D and was really into contributing his ideas whenever and wherever he could do so. Gygax thought he could write fiction and got several books published. Gygax went to message boards and engaged in conversation with fans. Gygax never missed an opportunity to promote his products. While Arneson did publish some articles and products, Gygax clearly wins the "quantity" competition because he loved to write stuff.

(3) Gygax' biggest skill seems to be the ability to take someone else's ideas and build upon them. I don't mean this as a slam on Gygax, but if you look at his biggest successes they always seem to be built on someone else's ideas. For "Chainmail" Gygax took Jerr Perrin's medieval miniatures rules set and expanded upon those. The "Alexader the Great" board game that he did for Avalon Hill was done by revising Don Greenwood's original game. "Don't Give Up the Ship" was co-written with Arneson, bur Arneson is the one known for his knowledge of old sailing ships. "Boot Hill" was based on a previous unpublished western RPG written by Brian Blume. Gygax was an organizer and had a great way with words, but it's possible that he never had lightning strike twice in RPG design because he tried to do it alone later in life instead of collaborating with others.

(4) Arneson, on the other hand, was full of ideas but apparently unable to organize them into publishable material. Looking at his "Temple of the Frog" scenario in the Blackmoor supplement for OD&D (which I understand was also edited somewhat) you can see some great potential but the final product requires a lot of tinkering to actually run as a scenario. "First Fantasy Campaign" (one of my all-time favorite PRG products, by the way) reads like someone's notes rather than a complete setting. His "Adventures in Fantasy" RPG is interesting but a bit unorganized. I suspect that the success of his Shadowrun and ME&PE products were tied closely to editors and not just his ideas. This might explain why he published so much less than Gygax, as his stuff required more work to get publish-ready.

Each contributed to his favorite hobby in his own way. I dislike the whole stance that one was "better" than the other, since their strengths didn't really overlap but instead built on each other. Gygax was nearly a decade older than Arneson, and I wonder if this might have contributed to the friction between them since sometimes an older person comes off as a "mentor" instead of an equal. I just wish they had collaborated on more projects over the years.

Nothing more needs to be said on this topic.  You have encapsulated it perfectly.

This is something alot of gamers really do not understand.

Quite a bit of board game and even RPG design is actually not by the designer. But by the publisher. Some games change massively from point of submission to published product. D&D saw its development much the same. And all the Arneson product I have was co-written with someone else.
 
One problem is that lets face it. Arneson in later years lied about the inception of D&D to one degree or another. His claims of the timeline of development do not line up with Kask's or others recounting of events. How much so? No clue. Monard's said much the same though.
 
But at some point Gygax split off AD&D from this.