I did the same thing - i.e. said "don't play vampire characters" - in Blood Games, but gave all the information for creating one. In Blood Games, there can be no 'good' vampires. They can only be, at best, not completely evil and willing for their own reasons to work with humans. They can never be trusted, because they will kill without a care if it suits their purposes, and their purposes are fickle.

I'll 2nd GURPS Horror - while GURPS is crunch heavy the Horror supplement is superb, and playing monsters is no problem.

Quote from: yabaziou;785846According to what I read on the internet, Kenneth Kite has freelanced in the following books for WW :

Bygone Bestiary (oWod) ;
Caïnite Heresy (VtDa) ;
Chicago (VtR) ;
Chicago Workings (VtR) ;
Crusade Lore (MtSC) ;
Guide to the Camarilla (VtM) ;
Mage the Sorcerers Crusade (MtSC) ;
Requiem for Rome (VtR) ;
Secrets of the Ruined Temple (MtAw).

So, yes, Kenneth Hite has written for VtM.

The Cainite Heresy is awesome btw. I like Hite. If he writes something it's usually good. Requiem for Rome is really good as well.

Chad Underkoffler of Atomic Sock Monkey Press did a game called Dead Inside, mostly about people trying to regain their souls, but it included some ghosts, vampires, zombies, and mages, plus simpler supernatural mechanics than White Wolf's mechanics and no hint of a World of Darkness-style conspiracy. Most of the setting is in some spiritual otherworld that's not all that interesting, however, but when I read it, I thought the game system at least would make a better foundation for a modern day supernatural PC game.

There was a sequel called Cold Hard World which was set in the "real" world, but I didn't read that one, so I can't tell you whether it avoids the excesses of the World of Darkness or not.

There was a recent kickstarter for Urban Shadows, which is a dark urban fantasy / monster politics RPG running on the * World system. Game is scheduled for release some time later this year.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;785855As far as setting goes, I take issue with the supernatural underworld being ruled by a global conspiracy. The logistics involved make it impossible to maintain.

New WoD doesn't have conspiracies which are that powerful. The power is very localized and doesn't reach that far.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;785855Secondly, the different monster classes aren't integrated socially. If there were several different types of supernatural monster living in secret, I would expect that a supernatural underworld where they all interact would form.

Nope they aren't. New Wod is designed more for crossover ruleswise, but each setting is it's own. I think Nightlife, Marchland, and Witchcraft will be better for that. Or maybe that new Urban Shadows game.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;785855Thirdly, the monster classes have very specific backgrounds out of the box that prevent many character concepts. For example, out of the box werewolves always run in families and you can't perform a ritual to become one or pass on the condition.

Yep those specific backgrounds are part of the themes of each game. Each game is pretty narrow in focus. They are not so open ended as advertised.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;785855As far as rules go, the system in World of Darkness is very clunky and the character classes each use completely different rules for adjudicating supernatural powers and the powers themselves are fairly restricted. Vampires out of the box are generally unable to levitate, crawl up walls, or teleport through doors like they can in plenty of movies. Powers are structured into linear paths that require you to buy filler powers before you can get the ones you actually want. There are pages and pages of laundry lists of powers because of the clunky rules.

True.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;785855I'm loosely familiar with Everlasting, Nephilim, Nightbane, Nightlife, Witchcraft, Immortal: The Invisible War, and Other Court Game's Factions RPG, but most don't seem to be supported anymore and use clunky 90s rules (in some cases ripped-off from World of Darkness). A lot of them have clear improvements (Everlasting has an integrated magical underworld and universal powers, Witchcraft has more flexible monster classes, etc), but the downside is that they aren't as popular or supported as World of Darkness despite these improvements.

Correct I have the same problem as you. Especially Witchcraft is a shame. I like that setting. There isn't a solution for that, I am afraid.

Fractured Kingdom is mysticism and conspiracy and while it lacks the you are X Monster factor it's easy to craft characters that fit into classic monster type archetypes. This was done so that players and GMs can revisit classic notions of monsters with a different twist.

I did find a rules-lite vampire RPG called Feed on RPGNow. One of the steps of character creation is deciding what rules your vampires follow, each set of rules called a "strain."

Quote from: Ladybird;785897There was a recent kickstarter for Urban Shadows, which is a dark urban fantasy / monster politics RPG running on the * World system. Game is scheduled for release some time later this year.

Urban Shadows sounds like it might be what I'm looking for. It's rules-lite, has a flexible background, and includes the popular archetypes (vampires, werewolves, witches, fairies, ghosts, dragons) out of the box. I can only hope it will prove a viable competitor to World of Darkness with its own vibrant community.

There's Chill, about which I know nothing except a few people once said nice things about it.

I REALLY liked Buffy/Angel games, though I found the brass tacks actual game design not that interesting. But the ideas about how to blend regular folks + witches + slayer was really cool, and some of the ritual magic stuff is some of the best ideas for generating Mythos-like stuff ever.

Oh hey, thanks for the tip about rpg.net's game index.

I can see the vast four year arc of my entire RPG career. Sigh.

Quote from: Will;785908I REALLY liked Buffy/Angel games, though I found the brass tacks actual game design not that interesting. But the ideas about how to blend regular folks + witches + slayer was really cool, and some of the ritual magic stuff is some of the best ideas for generating Mythos-like stuff ever.

Agreed & seconded.

The rules were intended to blend into the background afaik.

It is indeed good at "common/everyday everymen + proper action heroes and/or wizards + possibly a superhero in the same team", functioning pretty much like the source material. The everymen types Are pretty much how you expect Horror protagonists to be, the main thing separating them from Victims Of The Week is that they catch a bunch more breaks.

And yeah it'd work very well for something Mythos-esque. Both monsters vise and Magic vise (the Magic is actually very S&S, and divides "smart guy who can do a ritual given time" and "horrifying sorcerer" very well).

The camp/comedy thing is easily removed if desired (I do love the comedy bits mind, like calling the (armed) Melee skill "Going Medieval" ).

As a more offbeat choice, you may also go for Kult. Kult knows "Children of the Night" as catch-all term for things that were once human and now go bump in the night, and it may well be something that happens to a PC, or something that a ruthless PC actively seeks out.

There are no "clans" or "templates" you need to care about - every children of the night is unique. While many accrue supernatural disadvantages and advantages that cluster to resemble traditional horror monsters like vampires, werewolves or zombies, many are just *strange*. After all, Kult is a kitchensink splatterpunk RPG that has equal room for Hellraiser cenobites and skinwalkers, Sonja Blue vampires, cult-building tantric Pornomancers and possessed Chucky puppets...

And as a splatterpunk game, there is also no such thing as Humanity, or a Sanity Game Over Mechanic. You just accrue more mental disadvantages as you slide down the insanity slide. Kult characters don't write tragic poems about their woes and and don't spin intrigues to deal with their enemies - they punch them straight into the face with a baseball bat and then chainsaw them in half.

NIGHTLIFE was great unpretentious goofball fun. Even though it's not D&D-related it has a certain je ne sais quoi in it's art and attitude that IMHO puts it in the OSR ballpark.

UNKNOWN ARMIES was a fucking brilliant masterpiece. It had great, simple percentile-based rules, genuinely adult grit, and a voice all it's own.

Somebody pull the stakes out of the hearts of these two undeservedly dead games.

Quote from: Skyrock;785924As a more offbeat choice, you may also go for Kult.

Is Kult in print? Is a new edition planned? What edition would fans recommend?

KULT today is sorta what Empire of the Petal Throne was back in the 80's... this legendary game that I occasionally hear older gamers much cooler than me mention in hushed whispers, yet I have never seen a copy of it anywhere myself nor ever meet anyone who actually played it.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;785928Is Kult in print? Is a new edition planned? What edition would fans recommend?

AFAIK Kult is dead as dirt at the moment.
The only edition I tried to run was the first English one and that never really got off the ground. I didn't really take to the rules... it seemed overly concerned with combat/guns as I remember... the madness/insanity rules were cool though... and the magic books that came out later were full of flavor as well.
I've got the later edition that came as a couple of hardbacks but I never pored through those to the same degree to realize what the differences were.

The big deal about it was the setting... it's the anti-Lovecraft setting, where humans - rather than being insignificant and powerless were the primary concern of most of the higher powers and horrific goings on. Keeping humanity in the dark regarding its true heritage and potential.
Also, how bleak and horrific it's baseline of horror was. Much more A Serbian Film and Martyrs and Hellraiser... vs. Dracula/Wolfman/Mummy... it even made Lovecraft's stuff look a bit charming in comparison.

It's a great source of ideas for dark urban horrors... but straight up I think it's a bit heavy/bleak for an ongoing campaign. When I've run CoC games 'Kult' is the dial setting I turn to when I want things to get disturbing and personal.