Quote from: daniel_ream;786689It sounds like you're confusing legally acceptable with morally acceptable.  Killing another human (or sentient being, whatever) is profoundly affecting to most people, regardless of whether the act was defensible.  You can look at the mechanic as representing either being okay with it/getting a taste for it (lose a point of Humanity) or having it affect you and cause you great consternation (don't lose a point of Humanity).

While the trenchcoat-and-katana brigade certainly did take over the Vampire line almost immediately, the original concept was embodied in the line "monsters we are, lest monsters we become" - as a vampire, you had a choice between committing small atrocities over and over again to sate your unnatural appetites, or succumbing to those appetites and going full Season 3 Stefan the Ripper.

Yes.  The original point of VtM1 was that you were inevitably fucked.

I get all this. Of course killing someone in self defense does affect you. I just find it very unpractical. We are not trenchcoat katana warrior, but we do a lot of investigation. And sooner or later you get attacked by something. It is a karma meter, but it feels like unfair punishment.

Quote from: James Gillen;786703No, a psychopath is somebody who is clinically incapable of feeling empathy, as opposed to a normal person who just doesn't give a damn.  You're thinking "sociopath."

There is not really a difference between those two terms. They are just fashion words. In psychiatry people always speak of personality disorders anyway. And those are already pretty vague and changing a lot. I found some people online who wrote psychopathy is violent and sociopathy isn't, but I don't see where that's based on. It's just an opinion really. Anyway both psychopathy and sociopathy and some personality disorders are all terms for people with a lack of empathy.

And that's not the case in an RPG. An RPG has more action and plays out like an action movie. People play it more light hearted. You don't see James Bond or Indiana Jones being all hung up about all the people he killed in a movie. Those guys would be psychopaths as well if you put them in the real world. But it isn't the real world, it's just a game.

I think UA's madness meters would work great for a WoD-esque game.

Quote from: Will;786768I think UA's madness meters would work great for a WoD-esque game.

A sanity meter is good. A karma meter and sanity combined sucks. What do people use for wod as sanity? The sanity rules from Mirrors? Or the Integrity rules from the GMC?

I just look at that stuff and do what Mirrors had done.  Toss the morality out the damn window.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;786757And that's not the case in an RPG. An RPG has more action and plays out like an action movie. People play it more light hearted.

While this is certainly the case generally with VtM (vide the trenchcoat-and-katana stereotype) it wasn't the design goal, and I know several groups who played it as originally intended.

If you want a game that plays light-hearted like an action movie, then a game explicitly designed to force players to make impossible moral choices isn't the right game for that.

Quote from: daniel_ream;786778While this is certainly the case generally with VtM (vide the trenchcoat-and-katana stereotype) it wasn't the design goal, and I know several groups who played it as originally intended.

If you want a game that plays light-hearted like an action movie, then a game explicitly designed to force players to make impossible moral choices isn't the right game for that.

I like city games and I like investigative horror. I like the fact you don't stick your sword in 90% of the NPC's you meet. It's a talk RPG. I like that as well. I am not so much into the morality and not so much into the politics. I have to say the social combat rules make a lot of sense for a political game.

Quote from: Snowman0147;786776I just look at that stuff and do what Mirrors had done.  Toss the morality out the damn window.

Did you toss the Virtue/Vice system as wel as is suggested with the Absent Morality part on page 23?
What do you think of the Forbidden Lore system on page 28?
What do you think of the Sanity system on page 48? It doesn't feel very fleshed out to me. It looks like a "Just roll when you feel like it" system. I expected a list with scary shit that makes you lose your mind.

Btw I copy pasted your name by accident in this topic a few posts ago. Oops.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;786799Did you toss the Virtue/Vice system as wel as is suggested with the Absent Morality part on page 23?

I had nothing against them since they were just willpower points restore.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;786799What do you think of the Forbidden Lore system on page 28?

I actually like it.  Reading my play test I figured you know what inspired potency and drowning rules.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;786799What do you think of the Sanity system on page 48?

The only flaw in forbidden lore.  See unlike what WoD did and tried to make it mental I just kept things simple in my play test.  If you get too much potency you simply disappear from the mundane world because you have too much supernatural density.  You just sink towards the hidden worlds.

Quote from: Snowman0147;786807The only flaw in forbidden lore.  See unlike what WoD did and tried to make it mental I just kept things simple in my play test.  If you get too much potency you simply disappear from the mundane world because you have too much supernatural density.  You just sink towards the hidden worlds.

No I meant the other Sanity system. Not the Forbidden Lore, but the one that's replacing Morality. Together with Conscience and Spiritual Purity.

Oh that one just sucks.  I toss those out too.

Quote from: James Gillen;786703It's basically the same problem you get when trying to apply Catholic morality to real life.

I'm a humanist. We generally agree with Catholics on the whole "killing, raping and stealing are wrong" thing even if that makes us sanctimonious prudes. The problem with the karma meters in World of Darkness aren't that they measure a character's monstrosity, but that they punish characters for acting like monsters by making them go crazy. The books includes loads of special rules to get around being punished for committing atrocities, which wouldn't even be necessary in the first place if the karma meters weren't designed by idiots who thought it would be a good idea to combine a sanity meter with a karma meter.

Quote from: smiorgan;786715If you don't want that getting in the way of your fanged superhero campaign — and I suspect you don't if you want to be able to casually murder people — then just cut that bit out.

I'm glad you noticed my equation between shoplifting and casual murder. I was making a satirical comment on how RPGs are generally about being racially-motivated well-armed mass murderers that specialize in home invasion. Most players characters, if they existed in real life, would be heinous monsters any sane person would want to see put in the electric chair.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;786769A sanity meter is good. A karma meter and sanity combined sucks. What do people use for wod as sanity? The sanity rules from Mirrors? Or the Integrity rules from the GMC?

I read the Mirrors book. The Conscience (as a karma meter) rules are pretty much what Morality tried and failed to accomplish in the first place and I certainly prefer it over that damned Integrity meter. It's still problematic for being a combined karma/sanity meter, but it's a huge step in the right direction that GMC shat all over.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;786788I have to say the social combat rules make a lot of sense for a political game.

Are you talking about the social combat rules that force characters to spend a week of in-game time trying to convince a bouncer to let them into a club?

Quote from: Snowman0147;786807I had nothing against them since they were just willpower points restore.

Ditto. I have no idea why people threw such huge fits over these and why suddenly being able to make your own was any improvement.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;786820Ditto. I have no idea why people threw such huge fits over these and why suddenly being able to make your own was any improvement.

I didn't know anyone had a fit over virtue and vice.  It was basicly the good and bad side of the character.  If any thing it added more fluff.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;786820[...] RPGs are generally about being racially-motivated well-armed mass murderers that specialize in home invasion. Most players characters, if they existed in real life, would be heinous monsters any sane person would want to see put in the electric chair.

You've been reading Power Kill again, haven't you.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;786820I'm glad you noticed my equation between shoplifting and casual murder. I was making a satirical comment on how RPGs are generally about being racially-motivated well-armed mass murderers that specialize in home invasion. Most players characters, if they existed in real life, would be heinous monsters any sane person would want to see put in the electric chair.

I get your satirical point.

I disagree with "most player characters". With the exception of a few mission-focused amoral characters the people I roll with just don't play like that. But then we don't play D&D where the primary reward system is killing things and taking treasure.

I know you were being glib, but you're technically wrong if you argue VtM equates shoplifting with murder. In 1e, petty crime comes at 8 on the Hierarchy of Sin, and murder comes in at 2.

You're also wrong if you say Humanity is a madness meter. Losing humanity points does not force gains in derangements, nor does it force more and more reprehensible actions. Losing Humanity also doesn't make you more likely to lose more humanity in and of itself, unlike Call of Cthulhu and SAN.

I think vampire's framework is fine, it's the execution that's questionable. Frenzy leads to derangements, and so the player has to manage Frenzy. But in most cases doing the things that trigger Humanity loss are choices the player makes, and nothing to do with madness. It's just the Virtues that are broken.

So going back to your original point -- if you're complaining that vampire punishes players for playing like the amoral dungeoneers they're used to, that's not a fault of vampire. Even if the execution is rubbish, it's not like VtM tries to sneak that feature in -- it's the game you signed up to play.