Quote from: 3rik;786601I don't necessarily agree with Hite on this. It depends on the setting and the tone. I'm fine with "good" vampires or vampires trying to be good, as long as they're not whiny and pretentious. Overly pretentious evil vampires are just as annoying as good ones - ooh I'm so intense, so evil, so dark... yawn. As long as you don't take it all too seriously there is IMHO a place for both. Buffy/Angel did it right, Vampire Diaries to some extent, Twilight did not. True Blood was too "mature" to be any fun for me. YMMV

That said, the truly monstrous or evil vampire does deserve more appreciation.

I like vampires capable of both too. Along the lines of the better vampire movies of late, such as Byzantium and Let the Right One In.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;786537It's a mess. There's no sense of game balance anywhere and some classes and powers are clearly better than others. (That's the reason why drawing powers from a common list for all classes is a good design choice.) The mage orders are already global conspiracies and it makes no sense the different monsters haven't merged societies or subjugated one another. These are the same writers behind the mess of mechanics that is Exalted.

Ok, I agree. But it wasn't designed this way. The WW community has some sort of consencus that the new WoD is way more crossover friendly, both ruleswise and no conflicting cosmologies.

I must admit I never tried any other game than vampire. So I guess you are right. I do like Hunter because it uses one system for all creatures. Just a shame they aren't playable.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;786537The new Lasombra are designed specifically to deal with spirits (vampires call them strigoi) and werewolves have competing packs and conclaves. I can understand wanting each monster to embody a different theme, but I think it does the monsters a disservice.

It's not really about wanting anything. I was just making an observation. Each game has it's own feel, themes, mood and struggles. Werewolf obviously is all about the pack, the hunt, Father Werewolf, dealing with spirits, being guardians of the spirit world and perhaps fighting a rival tribe of werewolves like the Pure or the Balehounds. The books have a very tribal shamanistic vibe.

Very different from the mood of ennui, the politics, the corruption of mortal ideologies, the fight for good feeding grounds and the slow descent of becoming a cold predator of vampire. Or the dark fairytale that is changeling with all it's wonders and it's dark shadow side, it's focus on themes of abuse and the hiding for the True Fae.

I don't really see how these games mix.

I must say there is now one cosmology in the new wod and that is the cosmology of mage. Mage the awakening explains everything you want to know about the world. It emcompasses the material world and the realms of werewolf, changeling and more.

But I still don't see how they mix.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;786537Complete, as in you can use the existing rules to play all the classes the fiction teased you with and it doesn't tell you to refer to a book that doesn't exist. Supported, as in the publisher still cares about it and it still has a community that cares about it and can offer insight and assistance.

Pfff, this is hard. Witchcraft only has one covenant books, so no. Monte Cook's WoD is only one book. Same about Marchland. Nighlife, not sure. Nightbane, not sure either and I think you have very different races in that game. I think Buffy/Angel is your best bet.

Quote from: 3rik;786601I don't necessarily agree with Hite on this. It depends on the setting and the tone. I'm fine with "good" vampires or vampires trying to be good, as long as they're not whiny and pretentious. Overly pretentious evil vampires are just as annoying as good ones - ooh I'm so intense, so evil, so dark... yawn. As long as you don't take it all too seriously there is IMHO a place for both. Buffy/Angel did it right, Vampire Diaries to some extent, Twilight did not. True Blood was too "mature" to be any fun for me. YMMV

That said, the truly monstrous or evil vampire does deserve more appreciation.


You should. It's a really fun game.

I think vampire is designed to be morally grey. You want to be good and keep your humanity, but you have to do stuff to survive in the world and climb the ladder. Just like Michael Corleone in the Godfather. You end up as a loser, dead or as a cold ancient mofo.

Quote from: Skywalker;786657I like vampires capable of both too. Along the lines of the better vampire movies of late, such as Byzantium and Let the Right One In.

Let the right one in get's mentioned a lot. But to me that's a little bit too much horror for me to play. I play it more like an urban fantasy game. I believe it;s supposed to be gothic horror.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;786658- snip - Nightbane, not sure either and I think you have very different races in that game. - snip- .

Nightbane is a 6 books RPG line (7 if you count Dark Conversions) which is quite complete and playable with the first 4 books, even the core book is pretty useful on its own.

Nightbane does not feature a lot of races per se but each Nightbane is quite unique thanks to random table use during character creation.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;786662I think vampire is designed to be morally grey. You want to be good and keep your humanity, but you have to do stuff to survive in the world and climb the ladder. Just like Michael Corleone in the Godfather. You end up as a loser, dead or as a cold ancient mofo.

The problem with the morality mechanics in all World of Darkness rulebooks is that while they're intended to be an indicator of how much a dick/monster the character is, in practice they're poorly-contextualized and punish the player for playing their character like a typical RPG character (aka psychopath) by making characters go insane for doing such trivial things as shoplifting or casually murdering anyone in their way. It's basically Call of Cthulhu's sanity meter except in a totally wrong context because the goal of World of Darkness (accumulate temporal power as a monster) is the exact opposite of that of Call of Cthulhu (die or go crazy fighting monsters). To add insult to injury, the 2nd edition of "new" World of Darkness abruptly changed the genre to cosmic horror and made morality into even more of a sanity meter than it already was.

The humanity mechanic in Nightlife, despite predating and having originally inspired the humanity mechanic in Vampire: The Masquerade, is better designed than the mechanic used in World of Darkness. Players don't roll to determine if their character feels regret or goes crazy. No, if the character acts like a psycho they lose humanity automatically. The flaws, however, are that humanity will fluctuate very much very often and characters are rewarded with humanity for doing trivial chores. By simply working at a customer service job for a few months, the character can max out all their superpowers. Furthermore, superpowers impose a humanity tax for learning and using them rather than anything approaching a real "temptation to use the dark side" mechanic (I think the superpowers themselves were meant to be the actual temptation, but this is not explained well when the point of the game is playing a monster in the splatterpunk genre). In any case, Nightlife's humanity mechanic is a diamond in the rough and with a few simple changes it would actually accomplish what World of Darkness spent 20 years failing to.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;786670The problem with the morality mechanics in all World of Darkness rulebooks is that while they're intended to be an indicator of how much a dick/monster the character is, in practice they're poorly-contextualized and punish the player for playing their character like a typical RPG character (aka psychopath) by making characters go insane for doing such trivial things as shoplifting or casually murdering anyone in their way. It's basically Call of Cthulhu's sanity meter except in a totally wrong context because the goal of World of Darkness (accumulate temporal power as a monster) is the exact opposite of that of Call of Cthulhu (die or go crazy fighting monsters). To add insult to injury, the 2nd edition of "new" World of Darkness abruptly changed the genre to cosmic horror and made morality into even more of a sanity meter than it already was.

I couldn't agree more. We never rolled for it. It punishes players for manslaughter, which is also self defense. Now how many times will my players kill when they are attacked by a monster, cultist or serial killer? Every game session. It happens every time. So defend yourself and go nuts or get yourself killed.

I do like the sanity meter in GMC. More flexible. I hate it in B&S. That one is really "gothic".

How do you feel a bout the settings? I never cared much for the crappy rules anyway. I just houserule (or ignore) morality, virtue/vice and predators taint. I am still a little hung up about the setting background (or lack of) in nWoD. I just can't stand the subjective lore in the games. Nothing is certain, conflicting myth, multiple story seeds, left open or just make up your own details. I could kill for a good explanation about what the God Machine is and why it does what it does. But they leave it open as usual.  :rolleyes:

I don't use any of the extra rules in supplements as well. I just don't see the point in a lot of rules they make. I mean now they make rules for becoming a personal myth or legend. Why do you need rules for that? Can you just let some NPC's act impressed everytime they meet you?

Rant! :mad:

Quote from: Snowman0147;786671The humanity mechanic in Nightlife, despite predating and having originally inspired the humanity mechanic in Vampire: The Masquerade, is better designed than the mechanic used in World of Darkness. Players don't roll to determine if their character feels regret or goes crazy. No, if the character acts like a psycho they lose humanity automatically. The flaws, however, are that humanity will fluctuate very much very often and characters are rewarded with humanity for doing trivial chores. By simply working at a customer service job for a few months, the character can max out all their superpowers. Furthermore, superpowers impose a humanity tax for learning and using them rather than anything approaching a real "temptation to use the dark side" mechanic (I think the superpowers themselves were meant to be the actual temptation, but this is not explained well when the point of the game is playing a monster in the splatterpunk genre). In any case, Nightlife's humanity mechanic is a diamond in the rough and with a few simple changes it would actually accomplish what World of Darkness spent 20 years failing to.

Ouch! Is Nightlife pretty complete? Oh, four books.

Quote from: yabaziou;786666Nightbane is a 6 books RPG line (7 if you count Dark Conversions) which is quite complete and playable with the first 4 books, even the core book is pretty useful on its own.

Nightbane does not feature a lot of races per se but each Nightbane is quite unique thanks to random table use during character creation.

I believe Angel/Buffy is also something like this amount. I think with Angel there are seven books, not counting the expanded char sheet and the GM screen.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;786678Ouch! Is Nightlife pretty complete?

You could easily play a long campaign from the many PC types and antagonists in the corebook. There was also a Magic sourcebook (entitled Magic, IIRC) that added a Sorcerer PC type.

There were a few interesting rules for playing bands and having music be the focal theme of a campaign scattered around a few of the modules. There was also a fascinatingly weird and bleak alternate campaign setting sourcebook called KinRise that took place in a Post-WWIII nuclear winter Cormac McCarthy-meets-Troma hellscape.

Nightlife is eccentric, very 80's, and utterly without any pretension or gloss. I love it, of course.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;786678Oh, four books.

There was a 5th book called America Afterdark that for some weird reason is rarely mentioned and isn't listed on the Wikipedia page.

*Look at post 125 and reads the whole thing.*  

Damn jan paparazzi!  I said all that without making a single post?  Wow what super powers do I even have?

Okay joking about quotes aside I will say this.  Basicly what you want is a smarter world of darkness?  No major supernatural organization that controls every thing.  You want access to all the venues at the core book.  Then you want to make sure every thing is supported for as long as possible.  I think your best bet might be Urban Shadows.

The play test idea I had doesn't have supernatural classes.  Instead you play as a normal mundane human being that don't even know what would hit him.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;786663Let the right one in get's mentioned a lot. But to me that's a little bit too much horror for me to play. I play it more like an urban fantasy game. I believe it;s supposed to be gothic horror.

Its told from a mortal perspective which most Vampire games aren't. That's a valid distinction, but I still think its a good example of what things should look like to a mortal outsider. Byzantium is a better example from a vampire's perspective.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;786678I couldn't agree more. We never rolled for it. It punishes players for manslaughter, which is also self defense.

QuoteIt sounds like you're confusing legally acceptable with morally acceptable.  Killing another human (or sentient being, whatever) is profoundly affecting to most people, regardless of whether the act was defensible.  You can look at the mechanic as representing either being okay with it/getting a taste for it (lose a point of Humanity) or having it affect you and cause you great consternation (don't lose a point of Humanity).

While the trenchcoat-and-katana brigade certainly did take over the Vampire line almost immediately, the original concept was embodied in the line "monsters we are, lest monsters we become" - as a vampire, you had a choice between committing small atrocities over and over again to sate your unnatural appetites, or succumbing to those appetites and going full Season 3 Stefan the Ripper.

QuoteNow how many times will my players kill when they are attacked by a monster, cultist or serial killer? Every game session. It happens every time. So defend yourself and go nuts or get yourself killed.

Yes.  The original point of VtM1 was that you were inevitably fucked.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;786658Ok, I agree. But it wasn't designed this way. The WW community has some sort of consencus that the new WoD is way more crossover friendly, both ruleswise and no conflicting cosmologies.

I must admit I never tried any other game than vampire. So I guess you are right. I do like Hunter because it uses one system for all creatures. Just a shame they aren't playable.

The new WoD is designed to allow crossover insofar as the mechanics for the "power" stat (Blood Potency, etc.) and the "juice" stat (e.g. Vitae) are analogous between groups, and rules for using powers generally include what happens when you use the power on a supernatural (substituting the mage, werewolf or changeling stat for Blood Potency and vice versa).

QuoteIt's not really about wanting anything. I was just making an observation. Each game has it's own feel, themes, mood and struggles. Werewolf obviously is all about the pack, the hunt, Father Werewolf, dealing with spirits, being guardians of the spirit world and perhaps fighting a rival tribe of werewolves like the Pure or the Balehounds. The books have a very tribal shamanistic vibe.

Very different from the mood of ennui, the politics, the corruption of mortal ideologies, the fight for good feeding grounds and the slow descent of becoming a cold predator of vampire. Or the dark fairytale that is changeling with all it's wonders and it's dark shadow side, it's focus on themes of abuse and the hiding for the True Fae.

I don't really see how these games mix.

I must say there is now one cosmology in the new wod and that is the cosmology of mage. Mage the awakening explains everything you want to know about the world. It emcompasses the material world and the realms of werewolf, changeling and more.

But I still don't see how they mix.

They don't necessarily HAVE to.  But White Wolf (while it still existed) was trying to respond to demand, namely insofar as a lot of people were creating "supernatural superhero" campaigns on their own without encouragement anyway.  So while the backgrounds don't necessarily have to be compatible, they aren't completely contradictory either.  Of course being less contradictory than the old World of Darkness is not much achievement.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;786670The problem with the morality mechanics in all World of Darkness rulebooks is that while they're intended to be an indicator of how much a dick/monster the character is, in practice they're poorly-contextualized and punish the player for playing their character like a typical RPG character (aka psychopath)

No, a psychopath is somebody who is clinically incapable of feeling empathy, as opposed to a normal person who just doesn't give a damn.  You're thinking "sociopath."

Quoteby making characters go insane for doing such trivial things as shoplifting or casually murdering anyone in their way. It's basically Call of Cthulhu's sanity meter except in a totally wrong context because the goal of World of Darkness (accumulate temporal power as a monster) is the exact opposite of that of Call of Cthulhu (die or go crazy fighting monsters). To add insult to injury, the 2nd edition of "new" World of Darkness abruptly changed the genre to cosmic horror and made morality into even more of a sanity meter than it already was.

It's basically the same problem you get when trying to apply Catholic morality to real life.  

jg

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;786670The problem with the morality mechanics in all World of Darkness rulebooks is that while they're intended to be an indicator of how much a dick/monster the character is, in practice they're poorly-contextualized and punish the player for playing their character like a typical RPG character (aka psychopath) by making characters go insane for doing such trivial things as shoplifting or casually murdering anyone in their way.

The most absurd thing with Vampire is the way you can have a high conscience and it makes you more likely to do horrible things, because you have a better save vs. Humanity loss.

But, regardless of how bad the execution is, VtM has always been about the personal guilt and trauma thing, the horror of metamorphosis, etc. If you don't want that getting in the way of your fanged superhero campaign — and I suspect you don't if you want to be able to casually murder people — then just cut that bit out. You'll probably be better served with a decent superhero rpg, or maybe a spy rpg where morality isn't a question. Otherwise just use the humanity meter as a guideline and house rule some stuff, which is what everyone had to do to make it work IME.

Quote from: James Gillen;786703They don't necessarily HAVE to.  But White Wolf (while it still existed) was trying to respond to demand, namely insofar as a lot of people were creating "supernatural superhero" campaigns on their own without encouragement anyway.

Yes, spot on