Quote from: jan paparazzi;786283In Witchcraft the splats don't run into each other that often and only work together on occasion. Hunter the Vigil is almost the same. The splats don't interact that often. They only work together on a hunt. Politics isn't the focus. Do you think that game is bland as well?

Not read H:tV, couldn't say. Though I find in Witchcraft the individual splats themselves lack a certain something - you've got Generic Wiccans, Generic Freemasons and so on and in general there's no hooks to make me sit up and feel excited about playing any of the splats.

Quote from: Bren;786347So interesting characters but the book is at least twice as long as it ought to be and desperately needed a good editor and at least one more rewrite?

and the games are great in the middle but kind of peter out with no real ending and some sort of giant spider shows up....

...and the Stanley Kubrick adaptation is better and tighter than the actual game...

Quote from: CRKrueger;786272Thank Benoist, a Frenchman here for many years who touted the wonders of French RPGs, for educating us.

I was aware that Benoist was a fellow Frenchman. But I didn't not that I did spent some of his posting time educationg you on French RPGs.

For what I see, Benoist see most French authors as annoying that the most smuggish WW/OP/Evil Hat freelancer, high on the power of storytelling (Yes, they are as aggravating as that !), in strong of learning how properly play D&D.

I would rather thank him for his works as a moderator and the pictures of very nice pics of D&D dungeons.

Regarding of the OP subject, the only game that would maybe help him in his endeavor of dark urban fantasy is again Urban Shadows.

And if he really want to play vampire, he just needs (according to me) to stick to VtM 2edition, its playerbook and Chicago by Night 1st edition.

Immortal: The Invisible War is World of Darkness with everything turned up to 11.  *Hilariously* complicated setting.  If you trim out about 90% of the backstory, the mechanics are simple and work pretty well.

Quote from: smiorgan;786351Sounds like you're much better informed than the OP would suggest. In which case you probably know the answer is no, there is no urban fantasy rpg that is current and as well supported as WoD — if well supported means "lots of supplements to spoon-feed me the metaplot".

I consider myself relatively well-informed, but I'm open to the possibility I missed things. By well-supported what I mean is that it has a complete system for running what it is intended to run. The Everlasting has a complete game system, because all the books they intended to produce were produced, but the rules are clunky. Witchcraft is incomplete.

QuoteYou realise Urban Shadows is a brand new PbtA game with indie roots, and therefore pretty much a toolkit system? You're happy with indie's DIY approach ("flexible background"), but lament the lack of mainstream alternatives to WoD with lots of supplements?

Games that aren't supported by a publisher generally have small or shrinking communities. That's part of the reason why retro-clones exist: they provide support and attract communities.

QuoteYou don't like Witchcraft for the fonts? Really?

It's not the fonts themselves, but the fact that Eden Studios didn't bother to assure their product's quality. It's a pretty basic concept in business to preflight PDFs and make sure they have all their fonts embedded, much less making sure the presentation actually looks professional.

QuoteI mean, I'm not sure what to tell you. If you don't like the rules, use different ones. If you don't like the conspiracy, reject it. If no commercial product exists that scratches your itch, do what we all do, suck it up and make your own. But given how well informed you are I suspect you already know this.

I am making my own, but that takes time and effort. The entire reason I ask others for information is to make sure I haven't missed anything and don't have to spend time and effort making a new game myself.

Quote from: Warthur;786367Not read H:tV, couldn't say. Though I find in Witchcraft the individual splats themselves lack a certain something - you've got Generic Wiccans, Generic Freemasons and so on and in general there's no hooks to make me sit up and feel excited about playing any of the splats.

Yep, it's generic. Anyway in Hunter the splats hunt together but they don't have a hunter regime or a hunter prince. They don't go to court like vampires and changelings do.

Did anyone already name Monte Cook's WoD?

You did it right now !

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;786415The Everlasting has a complete game system, because all the books they intended to produce were produced, but the rules are clunky. Witchcraft is incomplete.

Well, OK, now we're getting subjective in terms of "completeness". The Witchcraft main book is the main book, and it's a playable game.

Also if you're concerned about a game line making promises about future supplements and then failing to deliver them, well, Eden released all of the supplements I see advertised in the back of the core book.

While we're talking about completeness, let's consider WoD and its clunkiness and inhomogeneous rules. The different races don't hang together, and the various overlapping conspiracies make no sense.

Thing is, VtM 1e is the vampire's perspective on the WoD, and is not intended to be part of one homogeneous world. The vampire isn't a character class, it's the game, period. So VtM is "complete" for playing vampires, and complaining that the different games don't interoperate is missing the point. You don't need to own Werewolf to represent Lupines in VtM (and to vamps they're lupines, not garou. They're not meant to be friends)

QuoteIt's not the fonts themselves, but the fact that Eden Studios didn't bother to assure their product's quality. It's a pretty basic concept in business to preflight PDFs and make sure they have all their fonts embedded, much less making sure the presentation actually looks professional.

This is a fair point, although
- at the time the game was published, sales would have been nearly all hard copy, so embedding fonts isn't as relevant
- this particular pdf is free
- I don't have any issue with the presentation myself, nor rendering on any of my devices. But then maybe I haven't spotted any "issues" because it's not my area of expertise.

So yeah, if Eden want you to buy their pdfs then making the freebie "better" makes some sense. But maybe the custom they'd lose doesn't make the effort worth it.

The old wod had competing mega conspiracies. Is the world being ruled by Pentex, the Technocracy or the Camarilla? You weren't supposed to mix settings, it wouldn't make any sense.

New WoD doesn't have that problem. Mechanically werewolves don't have much more oompf than vampires or mages. There is also no mega conspiracy ruling the world. Or conflicting metaplots.

Still it doesn't really makes much sense to mix vampire with mage for example, because those games have different themes. You can use werewolf with it's spirit hunting and interaction with the shadow in a vampire game. But vampire is all about politics and backstabbing, so that doesn't really add something. I think it maybe deludes the whole game.


What do you mean with complete btw? Five or six different books? And still making new books? I think maybe Buffy and Angel have the largest book amount of them all.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;786509New WoD doesn't have that problem. Mechanically werewolves don't have much more oompf than vampires or mages. There is also no mega conspiracy ruling the world.

It's a mess. There's no sense of game balance anywhere and some classes and powers are clearly better than others. (That's the reason why drawing powers from a common list for all classes is a good design choice.) The mage orders are already global conspiracies and it makes no sense the different monsters haven't merged societies or subjugated one another. These are the same writers behind the mess of mechanics that is Exalted.

QuoteStill it doesn't really makes much sense to mix vampire with mage for example, because those games have different themes.

The new Lasombra are designed specifically to deal with spirits (vampires call them strigoi) and werewolves have competing packs and conclaves. I can understand wanting each monster to embody a different theme, but I think it does the monsters a disservice.

QuoteWhat do you mean with complete btw? Five or six different books? And still making new books?

Complete, as in you can use the existing rules to play all the classes the fiction teased you with and it doesn't tell you to refer to a book that doesn't exist. Supported, as in the publisher still cares about it and it still has a community that cares about it and can offer insight and assistance.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;786415Games that aren't supported by a publisher generally have small or shrinking communities. That's part of the reason why retro-clones exist: they provide support and attract communities.

The PbtA RPGs embed a lot of the theme into the mechanics rather than setting material. So rather than having supplements of setting material showing what being a Werewolf may be like and the society they are in, the Werewolf Playbook (think class or type) demonstrates what being a Werewolf may be like and who the society they are in through play. The specific details, such as clan names, leaders and histories, are for the player and GM to extrapolate in game.

On saying that, due to the KS, there is already the Dark Streets sourcebook covering seven cities from around the world, the Victorian era, Wild West and additional bits and bobs. The city material won't be exhaustive (I would expect 20 or so pages) but will provide a good starting point from which the player and GM can expand from easily with mechanics that encourage that.

Also, given the PbtA licence, I am sure we will see a lot of community made stuff for Urban Shadows. Dungeon World's community has rapidly grown very large, and it only has released one book. There are over a 160 DW supplements on DTRPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse.php?filters=0_0_44819_0_0).

tl:dr Don't expect a weight of setting material like WoD. Instead, US will give you support to create and expand on this detail through play.

Quote from: Warthur;786372...and the Stanley Kubrick adaptation is better and tighter than the actual game...

That's just cold.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;786548That's just cold.

JG

Jack agrees.

Quote from: LibraryLass;786062I'm kinda with Hite, personally. Fuck playing the "good" vampire, just play the vampire. If I may paraphrase the recent Fright Night remake (which they totally shot in my hometown!) you're a monster and you're not brooding, or lovesick, or noble. You're the fuckin' shark from Jaws. You kill, you feed, and you don't stop until everybody around you is dead.

I don't necessarily agree with Hite on this. It depends on the setting and the tone. I'm fine with "good" vampires or vampires trying to be good, as long as they're not whiny and pretentious. Overly pretentious evil vampires are just as annoying as good ones - ooh I'm so intense, so evil, so dark... yawn. As long as you don't take it all too seriously there is IMHO a place for both. Buffy/Angel did it right, Vampire Diaries to some extent, Twilight did not. True Blood was too "mature" to be any fun for me. YMMV

That said, the truly monstrous or evil vampire does deserve more appreciation.

Quote from: The Ent;786066Hahaha!:rotfl:

I always wanted to Get my hands on AoD but somehow never did. :-/

You should. It's a really fun game.