Quote from: Dropbear on December 31, 2023, 05:50:09 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on December 31, 2023, 04:49:37 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 31, 2023, 03:39:30 PM
Conventions with safe rooms where white people aren't allowed.

Let's phrase that differently. Conversation spaces that aren't forced to admit white people.

Rephrasing this does not actually change what they are. Trying to paint the image with a different filter comes across as extremely insincere.

Yet I'll bet plenty of you would squeal like piglets about Girl Scouts requiring troops to admit trans girls. People like to crack jokes about safe spaces, but the fact is that a lot of people's egos simply can't handle something not being about them. Not for a couple of hours in a back room at a con.

It's certainly not good for the hobby that you can't create a space at large events where a bunch of white ignoramuses who think white people are the ones truly discriminated against can't come in and snort like rhinos. Justify it however you want, the message is clear. There is no corner on Earth you can game, or talk, in peace, without certain people feeling like they have to barrel in and destroy it.

It's pretty ironic, considering how a lot of people here would react to a bunch of storygamers feeling like they have to invade every discussion of old school gaming and explaining how they are wrong, etc.

Quote from: pawsplay on January 09, 2024, 03:55:58 AMPeople like to crack jokes about safe spaces, but the fact is that a lot of people's egos simply can't handle something not being about them.

the irony here is so thick one could cut it with a knife.

When simply being a certain skin color is assumed to mean you are a political threat, and that you must be excluded from a part of the hobby or an event as a result, there's a problem. Especially when that skin color is more politically divided in fact than pretty much any other skin color in America. Racialized discrimination and prejudice is driving a clear instance of intentional event segregation, on the basis of skin color. It's disgusting.

And for the record, it would be equally disgusting if in an effort to avoid woke gaming the same were enacted for a different set of skin tones. But thankfully at least the allegedly all white "ignoramuses" you speak of aren't the ones stooping that low in this instance. Apparently they have either the conscience or enforced legal constraints that those conventions feel they're fine to lack.

Quote from: pawsplay on January 09, 2024, 03:55:58 AMIt's certainly not good for the hobby that you can't create a space at large events where a bunch of white ignoramuses who think white people are the ones truly discriminated against can't come in and snort like rhinos. Justify it however you want, the message is clear. There is no corner on Earth you can game, or talk, in peace, without certain people feeling like they have to barrel in and destroy it.

Would you support conventions having safe spaces where black people are not allowed?

If not, why not?

Exactly. Banning POC on the basis of skin color would be completely insane, and at least folks have the capacity to recognize that. You could claim it was for "political lean" or "demographic trends" or even "wokeness" but there at least people would be sane enough to understand that dividing based off of race is racial stereotyping and discrimination regardless. But change the colors slightly, and everyone gets so much fucking dumber.

As regards free speech... Hell, we have plenty of storygamers, left wingers, and the like here on this site, because it's a forum that is dedicated to rpg discussion and related free speech. In fact, what few rules and limitations we have lean left wing, not right, for political moderation. Show me a forum that allows unmuzzled political discussion from a right wing perspective that is owned by firmly left wing folks. Or hell, just a forum that like this one allows full and free discussion of politics within TTRPG context. They broadly don't exist, which says something about speech and its freedom within the hobby.

I'm fine with there existing ideological organizations that wouldn't take me as a member on the basis of ideology. Even if a table doesn't want me after getting to know me, that's fine too. But when folks decide to exclude in advance all sorts of other people on the basis of skin color stereotyping, or inborn identity, they should be subject to lawsuits. More than that, it's just plain wrong.

Greetings!

Having "safe spaces" where WHITE people are banned, well, that's just fine and dandy.

Woke morons love being full of racism and hate.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: pawsplay on January 09, 2024, 03:55:58 AM

Quote from: Dropbear on December 31, 2023, 05:50:09 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on December 31, 2023, 04:49:37 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 31, 2023, 03:39:30 PM
Conventions with safe rooms where white people aren't allowed.

Let's phrase that differently. Conversation spaces that aren't forced to admit white people.

Rephrasing this does not actually change what they are. Trying to paint the image with a different filter comes across as extremely insincere.

Yet I'll bet plenty of you would squeal like piglets about Girl Scouts requiring troops to admit trans girls. People like to crack jokes about safe spaces, but the fact is that a lot of people's egos simply can't handle something not being about them. Not for a couple of hours in a back room at a con.

It's certainly not good for the hobby that you can't create a space at large events where a bunch of white ignoramuses who think white people are the ones truly discriminated against can't come in and snort like rhinos. Justify it however you want, the message is clear. There is no corner on Earth you can game, or talk, in peace, without certain people feeling like they have to barrel in and destroy it.

It's pretty ironic, considering how a lot of people here would react to a bunch of storygamers feeling like they have to invade every discussion of old school gaming and explaining how they are wrong, etc.

Oh noes! people want to preserve SEX segregated spaces for women/girls (adult/immature human females) to keep away the mentally ill and predators!

Proving once more you hate women and are a racist.

Quote from: Grognard GM on January 09, 2024, 11:09:04 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on January 09, 2024, 03:55:58 AMIt's certainly not good for the hobby that you can't create a space at large events where a bunch of white ignoramuses who think white people are the ones truly discriminated against can't come in and snort like rhinos. Justify it however you want, the message is clear. There is no corner on Earth you can game, or talk, in peace, without certain people feeling like they have to barrel in and destroy it.

Would you support conventions having safe spaces where black people are not allowed?

If not, why not?

The DemoKKKrats managed to convince black people to be PRO-Segregation... "For their own good".

Quote from: Grognard GM on January 09, 2024, 11:09:04 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on January 09, 2024, 03:55:58 AMIt's certainly not good for the hobby that you can't create a space at large events where a bunch of white ignoramuses who think white people are the ones truly discriminated against can't come in and snort like rhinos. Justify it however you want, the message is clear. There is no corner on Earth you can game, or talk, in peace, without certain people feeling like they have to barrel in and destroy it.

Would you support conventions having safe spaces where black people are not allowed?

If not, why not?

No, because black people are a historically excluded community. There might be a space from which black people might be excluded, for instance, a space for Asian and Pacific Islander gamers. But they would be welcome if they were also Asian. No, I can't think of any reason of conscience to exclude black people specifically from a gaming event. That seems like an idea that would only seem reasonable to a Nazi or a Klansman, or maybe a nervous and un-reflective suburbanite.

Quote from: pawsplay on January 09, 2024, 03:55:58 AM

Quote from: Dropbear on December 31, 2023, 05:50:09 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on December 31, 2023, 04:49:37 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 31, 2023, 03:39:30 PM
Conventions with safe rooms where white people aren't allowed.

Let's phrase that differently. Conversation spaces that aren't forced to admit white people.

Rephrasing this does not actually change what they are. Trying to paint the image with a different filter comes across as extremely insincere.

Yet I'll bet plenty of you would squeal like piglets about Girl Scouts requiring troops to admit trans girls. People like to crack jokes about safe spaces, but the fact is that a lot of people's egos simply can't handle something not being about them. Not for a couple of hours in a back room at a con.

Let's do try not to bring a trans strawman into the topic of discussion you brought up here. People laboring under a mental illness has nothing to do with racist behavior. They are not the same nor are they even similar.

If you set up ANY area as segregated for or from ANY skin color at ANY public gathering, that's racist. Promoting such is racist.

And for the record, no I don't believe that any self-diagnosed (or parent-diagnosed with blind affirmation from a "gender clinic") "trans" individual who has not been clinically diagnosed  over time as gender dysphoric should be allowed into women's  or girl's spaces. I do not believe people just because they say something. Attention-seeking behavior should not be accepted, validated, and rewarded, but medical diagnoses after more than a single affirmation visit to a gender clinic are acceptable.

Transtrender is a thing. And the vast majority of the transgender people I have met fall under that umbrella.

My question would be, are the Girl Scouts inherently sexist and boy-hating because they don't allow boys in?

I am opposed to gender discrimination, but I am OK with the Girl Scouts as well as Boy Scouts, along with men's groups and women's groups, as long as they aren't enforced by the government or tied to overall real-world advancement. People should be free to gather around particular identities. As another example, it's fine if a church restricts itself to Christian people, or a synagogue restricts itself to Jewish people. Arbitrarily discriminating against Jews is wrong, but hiring a Christian-only Sunday school teacher is reasonable.

I've seen school clubs like a Christian club, but also ethnic identities like a Filipino-American club. I don't think this is inherently racist any more than the Girl Scouts are inherently sexist.

I haven't seen a white-only club or gathering, but my big question about one would be why the organizers want it. I understand with something like a Filipino-American club that it's a chance for people with shared identity to interact with each other -- when in everyday life, they are surrounded by non-Filipinos. For white people - especially in RPGs - there are already a lot of accidentally white-only games and spaces, so that reason doesn't apply.

"There might be a space from which black people might be excluded, for instance, a space for Asian and Pacific Islander gamers."

You do realize that POC sometimes historically have discriminated against and been racist towards one another, including along these specific lines? It's not a good thing, it divides people and spreads racial stereotypes, and it shouldn't be encouraged. I understand that on some level you must be against discrimination. If so, do not support stereotyping social threat and excluding people from locations and events on the basis of skin color. If you are against racial profiling and pro-BLM in that sense, all the more reason not to do that. Seriously, how the hell are folks selling this double think to keep us all divided and willing to enable overt race-disqualification based hiring discrimination and segregation, of all things?

Quote from: KindaMeh on January 09, 2024, 05:29:42 PM
"There might be a space from which black people might be excluded, for instance, a space for Asian and Pacific Islander gamers."

You do realize that POC sometimes historically have discriminated against and been racist towards one another, including along these specific lines? It's not a good thing, it divides people and spreads racial stereotypes, and it shouldn't be encouraged. I understand that on some level you must be against discrimination. If so, do not support stereotyping social threat and excluding people from locations and events on the basis of skin color. If you are against racial profiling and pro-BLM in that sense, all the more reason not to do that. Seriously, how the hell are folks selling this double think to keep us all divided and willing to enable overt race-disqualification based hiring discrimination and segregation, of all things?

What, really???

It's almost like I just mentioned someone who is both black and Asian should be welcome at such a gathering.

I had a friend who was a Mexican Jew. Went to synagogue with a bunch of white kids. They were absolutely shitty to him.

This is not about qualification. That's your fantasy, that people who seek diversity are trying to check some boxes, or load the bases, or something. It's about providing a welcoming experience. And sometimes that means un-inviting people who are not welcoming.

For instance, if you were running a panel on OSR games, and some storygamer went in there and started raising their hand a lot, and criticizing the very idea of traditional games, and was disruptive, you would kick them the fuck out.

Imagine if you offered me some nightshade berries, and I was like, "No, thanks." Then you said, "How can you can justify this? I know you eat blueberries, which are also berries."

That is what this line of argument sounds like to me.

Quote from: jhkim on January 09, 2024, 05:22:04 PM
My question would be, are the Girl Scouts inherently sexist and boy-hating because they don't allow boys in?

In context? Yes.

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/BSA_Family-Entry-Fact-Sheet.pdf

https://www.girlscouts.org/en/raising-girls/happy-and-healthy/happy/girls-only-single-gender-empowering-girls.html

Quote from: jhkim on January 09, 2024, 05:22:04 PM
My question would be, are the Girl Scouts inherently sexist and boy-hating because they don't allow boys in?

I am opposed to gender discrimination, but I am OK with the Girl Scouts as well as Boy Scouts, along with men's groups and women's groups, as long as they aren't enforced by the government or tied to overall real-world advancement. People should be free to gather around particular identities. As another example, it's fine if a church restricts itself to Christian people, or a synagogue restricts itself to Jewish people. Arbitrarily discriminating against Jews is wrong, but hiring a Christian-only Sunday school teacher is reasonable.

I've seen school clubs like a Christian club, but also ethnic identities like a Filipino-American club. I don't think this is inherently racist any more than the Girl Scouts are inherently sexist.

I haven't seen a white-only club or gathering, but my big question about one would be why the organizers want it. I understand with something like a Filipino-American club that it's a chance for people with shared identity to interact with each other -- when in everyday life, they are surrounded by non-Filipinos. For white people - especially in RPGs - there are already a lot of accidentally white-only games and spaces, so that reason doesn't apply.

Ideological discrimination is one thing. Atheist groups should not have to take non-atheists, for example, as part of an ideological group founded around atheism. Likewise, even outside a religious context, I respect the right of an organization to set ideological boundaries related to its function. There is no ideological reason why someone can't be ideologically safe to be around and also white, while gaming, even from a leftist point of view. Racial essentialism is basically the only way to suggest otherwise. So that's not a good defense within the specific context being discussed.

I don't personally think that white-only clubs are any more okay. It's weird to even hear that they might be tolerated. Not least because even if you wanted to have, say, a club that celebrates whatever primarily white European culture, there's no reason why folks who aren't that skin color couldn't appreciate it. An Egyptian-only Egyptian culture club would also be racist and wrong, by the same token.

Even if we go down the route of saying there should be a safe organization for white, or black, or asian, or whatever people wherein they are ideologically respected and discrimination fought against... Why can't there be, say, black people within that space? Or white people? Or Asians? PROVIDED, that they are ideologically decent people, and support the premise of this, why are we disqualifying solely based off of what would then be inaccurate racial stereotyping?