Quote from: KindaMeh on December 22, 2023, 03:51:49 PM
This is fair. I don't think in retrospect I should even have allowed for that possibility with my wording. There is no such thing as white culture, as understood best by whites. So it would indeed be racist to assume anything exists like that for other skin colors. Understanding of culture or society, and skin color, do not relate.

My dude, no need to apologize, we're not like the Cancel Pigs to come devour you for an innocent slip.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 22, 2023, 04:00:13 PM

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 22, 2023, 03:51:49 PM
This is fair. I don't think in retrospect I should even have allowed for that possibility with my wording. There is no such thing as white culture, as understood best by whites. So it would indeed be racist to assume anything exists like that for other skin colors. Understanding of culture or society, and skin color, do not relate.

My dude, no need to apologize, we're not like the Cancel Pigs to come devour you for an innocent slip.

I appreciate that, and that's definitely part of why I post here. Still, I felt bad about maybe having steered the discussion in a questionable direction. *shrugs*

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 22, 2023, 03:59:04 PM

Bienvenido paisano! De donde eres? Yo de chilangolandia.

Igual.

Precisamente de Coyoacan. 

Ya me siento mas en casa sabiendo que hay mas Chilango.  Jeje.

Saludos.

Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on December 22, 2023, 04:18:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 22, 2023, 03:59:04 PM

Bienvenido paisano! De donde eres? Yo de chilangolandia.

Igual.

Precisamente de Coyoacan. 

Ya me siento mas en casa sabiendo que hay mas Chilango.  Jeje.

Saludos.

Muy cerca de donde vivo, en la Benito Juarez, a ver si nos ponemos de acuerdo para jugar.

Quote from: jhkim on December 21, 2023, 04:09:15 PM
Again, I think it's legitimate to select on writers who grew up in the culture they're writing about. Here "lived experience" means that one's childhood and personal life is in the culture, as opposed to studying the culture as a profession - dealing with it from 9 to 5, and then going home to a different culture. This isn't the same as skin color, but it also isn't the same as birthplace. My ex-father-in-law, for example, is white and was born and raised in Venezuela - but he grew up in an oil company expatriate neighborhood, speaking mostly English with other American families. He knows a lot about Venezuela, but he wasn't raised in Venezuelan culture.

I am reminded of Sony's presentation for Ghost of Tsushima where people crawled out of the woodwork to whine that "a white man" was playing the Japanese instrument at the show.  Only to have to slink away when the actual Japanese people told them that white man was one of the few living masters of the instrument and famous for his skill with it in that country.  Nobody has to grow up somewhere to become an expert in aspects of its culture.  I fully expect that there are plenty of people outside the US who quite exceed my knowledge of the history of the nation; for me to claim that someone born elsewhere could not possibly write a better story about it than I could would be stupid.

WotC was absolutely pandering by race for that book, it was the clear intention from the get-go.  You can tell because the first sentence was not, "We want authentic and meaningful cultural input from other places", it was "black and brown people".  They gave it away right at the start.  At this point I'd be amused for someone to come up with a pseudonym and do up a suitably brown AI photo and submit works of pure tripe to WotC and see if it gets published.

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 22, 2023, 02:35:17 PM
And they did so not within the context of "Oh it's a book on growing up black in part of the south and you grew up black in the south, so we'll give you high marks on fit, as opposed to lower marks for those who didn't." but rather within the context (if I understand correctly) of "We want fantasy written by POC, which will mirror in flavor where they are culturally AND biologically from, and you are not a POC, so you are disqualified (by race) even if you grew up in Mexico." Now again, I could be wrong on this. But it seems to me like we should take them at their word when they have not retracted or outright contradicted prior statements.

I can appreciate that jhkim understands it would be wrong to discriminate and disqualify on the basis of race. Even if not with respect to POC. I also understand wanting to give folks the benefit of the doubt where it may be warranted. That said, in this instance it does not to me seem warranted, on account of the specific situation at hand.

Fair enough, KindaMeh. We seem clear enough on the issues.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 22, 2023, 03:34:44 PM
Speaking about "Non-White" cultures in Latin America? Dude should stick to speaking about what he knows, becauyse he obviously has exactly ZERO knowledge about Latin America.

I'll renew my invitation to him: Define what you mean by "Non-White" cultures. Because in Latin America there's not a single "White Culture" we've been interbreeding biologically and culturally for 500 fucking years.

White culture is defined by originating from Europe, just like white people are defined that way. Sure, the distinction is less clear in Latin America, as well as on the Eastern Europe and Central Asia border. But borderline cases doesn't mean a distinction doesn't exist. There is no culture in the world without mixing and borderline cases. In any case, the idea of a white race and white culture doesn't come from modern leftism - it was around for centuries within European and American culture, and is still a common belief today.

By the historical definition of "white" in the U.S., significantly mixed ancestry was not considered white - and the same for mixed culture. If mixed culture has significant African or Native American influence, then it is non-white.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 22, 2023, 03:34:44 PM
Furthermore, they included "Santa" Muerte as part of our culture, fuck that shit, that's Narco Culture (think also the MS13 animals worship that demon).

There is no mention of Santa Muerte in the book, but there is a local spirit called La Catrina -- as a fantasy creation written by Mexican author Mario Ortegón. This is D&D, so the relation of anything to real-life beliefs is up to the reader. In the mini-setting, La Catrina is not a goddess and is not worshipped, but she is considered a patron spirit of the city and respected.

Quote from: jhkim on December 22, 2023, 06:49:33 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 22, 2023, 03:34:44 PM
Speaking about "Non-White" cultures in Latin America? Dude should stick to speaking about what he knows, becauyse he obviously has exactly ZERO knowledge about Latin America.

I'll renew my invitation to him: Define what you mean by "Non-White" cultures. Because in Latin America there's not a single "White Culture" we've been interbreeding biologically and culturally for 500 fucking years.

White culture is defined by originating from Europe, just like white people are defined that way. Sure, the distinction is less clear in Latin America, as well as on the Eastern Europe and Central Asia border. But borderline cases doesn't mean a distinction doesn't exist. There is no culture in the world without mixing and borderline cases. In any case, the idea of a white race and white culture doesn't come from modern leftism - it was around for centuries within European and American culture, and is still a common belief today.

By the historical definition of "white" in the U.S., significantly mixed ancestry was not considered white - and the same for mixed culture. If mixed culture has significant African or Native American influence, then it is non-white.

So, to you (and the woke in general) All European cultures are the same...

How it shows you woke Americans know nothing beyond your own parochial communities, French Culture is very different from British Culture and German Culture and Romanian Culture and Italian culture etc, etc.

But you judge them the same because the people are huwhite.

How many drops of blood? How many drops of blood are needed to make a culture white or non-white?

It amazes me you can write such things and not notice how racist you sound, I'm sure you also lump us Mexicans together with the rest of Latin America as "brown" people.

Please, I implore you, stop for a moment and think, go read again what you wrote and give it a good long and deep thinking, maybe there's still hope for you.

Quote from: jhkim on December 22, 2023, 06:49:33 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 22, 2023, 03:34:44 PM
Furthermore, they included "Santa" Muerte as part of our culture, fuck that shit, that's Narco Culture (think also the MS13 animals worship that demon).

There is no mention of Santa Muerte in the book, but there is a local spirit called La Catrina -- as a fantasy creation written by Mexican author Mario Ortegón. This is D&D, so the relation of anything to real-life beliefs is up to the reader. In the mini-setting, La Catrina is not a goddess and is not worshipped, but she is considered a patron spirit of the city and respected.

"patron spirit" Patron Saint... How it shows you know nothing about our culture or you would know enough to make the connection, La Catrina is La Muerte (Death), so if there's a patron saint that is La Catrina it is "Santa" Muerte with a very thin coat of paint.

But thank you for trying to explain my culture to me.

Quote from: Valatar on December 22, 2023, 06:45:31 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 21, 2023, 04:09:15 PM
Again, I think it's legitimate to select on writers who grew up in the culture they're writing about. Here "lived experience" means that one's childhood and personal life is in the culture, as opposed to studying the culture as a profession - dealing with it from 9 to 5, and then going home to a different culture. This isn't the same as skin color, but it also isn't the same as birthplace. My ex-father-in-law, for example, is white and was born and raised in Venezuela - but he grew up in an oil company expatriate neighborhood, speaking mostly English with other American families. He knows a lot about Venezuela, but he wasn't raised in Venezuelan culture.

I am reminded of Sony's presentation for Ghost of Tsushima where people crawled out of the woodwork to whine that "a white man" was playing the Japanese instrument at the show.  Only to have to slink away when the actual Japanese people told them that white man was one of the few living masters of the instrument and famous for his skill with it in that country.  Nobody has to grow up somewhere to become an expert in aspects of its culture.  I fully expect that there are plenty of people outside the US who quite exceed my knowledge of the history of the nation; for me to claim that someone born elsewhere could not possibly write a better story about it than I could would be stupid.

WotC was absolutely pandering by race for that book, it was the clear intention from the get-go.  You can tell because the first sentence was not, "We want authentic and meaningful cultural input from other places", it was "black and brown people".  They gave it away right at the start.  At this point I'd be amused for someone to come up with a pseudonym and do up a suitably brown AI photo and submit works of pure tripe to WotC and see if it gets published.

If I can convince my cousin we might not even need a fake picture or name, let me see if he's willing to participate in trolling them. We would still need someone not from México to write it, better yet if it's an Irish redhead.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 22, 2023, 04:58:06 PM

Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on December 22, 2023, 04:18:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 22, 2023, 03:59:04 PM

Bienvenido paisano! De donde eres? Yo de chilangolandia.

Igual.

Precisamente de Coyoacan. 

Ya me siento mas en casa sabiendo que hay mas Chilango.  Jeje.

Saludos.

Muy cerca de donde vivo, en la Benito Juarez, a ver si nos ponemos de acuerdo para jugar.

Seria chido pero no puedo.  Acabo de regresar de Vietnam donde estuve viviendo 6 meses.  Ahora estoy en los EUA.  Nadamas estoy los veranos en Mexico y normalmente me los paso en Temixco (cerca de Cuernavaca). 

Pero... hay vemos si nos ponemos de acuerdo un de estos dias. 

Saluuuud!

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 22, 2023, 07:45:20 PM

Quote from: Valatar on December 22, 2023, 06:45:31 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 21, 2023, 04:09:15 PM
Again, I think it's legitimate to select on writers who grew up in the culture they're writing about. Here "lived experience" means that one's childhood and personal life is in the culture, as opposed to studying the culture as a profession - dealing with it from 9 to 5, and then going home to a different culture. This isn't the same as skin color, but it also isn't the same as birthplace. My ex-father-in-law, for example, is white and was born and raised in Venezuela - but he grew up in an oil company expatriate neighborhood, speaking mostly English with other American families. He knows a lot about Venezuela, but he wasn't raised in Venezuelan culture.

I am reminded of Sony's presentation for Ghost of Tsushima where people crawled out of the woodwork to whine that "a white man" was playing the Japanese instrument at the show.  Only to have to slink away when the actual Japanese people told them that white man was one of the few living masters of the instrument and famous for his skill with it in that country.  Nobody has to grow up somewhere to become an expert in aspects of its culture.  I fully expect that there are plenty of people outside the US who quite exceed my knowledge of the history of the nation; for me to claim that someone born elsewhere could not possibly write a better story about it than I could would be stupid.

WotC was absolutely pandering by race for that book, it was the clear intention from the get-go.  You can tell because the first sentence was not, "We want authentic and meaningful cultural input from other places", it was "black and brown people".  They gave it away right at the start.  At this point I'd be amused for someone to come up with a pseudonym and do up a suitably brown AI photo and submit works of pure tripe to WotC and see if it gets published.

If I can convince my cousin we might not even need a fake picture or name, let me see if he's willing to participate in trolling them. We would still need someone not from México to write it, better yet if it's an Irish redhead.

In the US, people have trouble understanding any viewpoint that is not native to their own imperial worldview.  Try explaining that most Mexicans identify as mestizo.  In the USA, being mixed is not a valid category.  All people must fit into, and be defined by, the categories that they themselves (US intellectuals) invented. 

One has to be completely ignorant of the world in order to accept the idea that there is anything deterministic about the concept of "whiteness."

Ahora intenta explicarle que Mexico jamas fue colonia, fue virreinato. 

No entienden.  Ni lo van a entender nunca. 

Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on December 22, 2023, 10:40:36 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 22, 2023, 04:58:06 PM

Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on December 22, 2023, 04:18:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 22, 2023, 03:59:04 PM

Bienvenido paisano! De donde eres? Yo de chilangolandia.

Igual.

Precisamente de Coyoacan. 

Ya me siento mas en casa sabiendo que hay mas Chilango.  Jeje.

Saludos.

Muy cerca de donde vivo, en la Benito Juarez, a ver si nos ponemos de acuerdo para jugar.

Seria chido pero no puedo.  Acabo de regresar de Vietnam donde estuve viviendo 6 meses.  Ahora estoy en los EUA.  Nadamas estoy los veranos en Mexico y normalmente me los paso en Temixco (cerca de Cuernavaca). 

Pero... hay vemos si nos ponemos de acuerdo un de estos dias. 

Saluuuud!

También se puede en roll20, si te interesa le digo a mi GM o creamos un grupo de latinos para jugar en Español.

Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on December 22, 2023, 10:51:41 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 22, 2023, 07:45:20 PM

Quote from: Valatar on December 22, 2023, 06:45:31 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 21, 2023, 04:09:15 PM
Again, I think it's legitimate to select on writers who grew up in the culture they're writing about. Here "lived experience" means that one's childhood and personal life is in the culture, as opposed to studying the culture as a profession - dealing with it from 9 to 5, and then going home to a different culture. This isn't the same as skin color, but it also isn't the same as birthplace. My ex-father-in-law, for example, is white and was born and raised in Venezuela - but he grew up in an oil company expatriate neighborhood, speaking mostly English with other American families. He knows a lot about Venezuela, but he wasn't raised in Venezuelan culture.

I am reminded of Sony's presentation for Ghost of Tsushima where people crawled out of the woodwork to whine that "a white man" was playing the Japanese instrument at the show.  Only to have to slink away when the actual Japanese people told them that white man was one of the few living masters of the instrument and famous for his skill with it in that country.  Nobody has to grow up somewhere to become an expert in aspects of its culture.  I fully expect that there are plenty of people outside the US who quite exceed my knowledge of the history of the nation; for me to claim that someone born elsewhere could not possibly write a better story about it than I could would be stupid.

WotC was absolutely pandering by race for that book, it was the clear intention from the get-go.  You can tell because the first sentence was not, "We want authentic and meaningful cultural input from other places", it was "black and brown people".  They gave it away right at the start.  At this point I'd be amused for someone to come up with a pseudonym and do up a suitably brown AI photo and submit works of pure tripe to WotC and see if it gets published.

If I can convince my cousin we might not even need a fake picture or name, let me see if he's willing to participate in trolling them. We would still need someone not from México to write it, better yet if it's an Irish redhead.

In the US, people have trouble understanding any viewpoint that is not native to their own imperial worldview.  Try explaining that most Mexicans identify as mestizo.  In the USA, being mixed is not a valid category.  All people must fit into, and be defined by, the categories that they themselves (US intellectuals) invented. 

One has to be completely ignorant of the world in order to accept the idea that there is anything deterministic about the concept of "whiteness."

Ahora intenta explicarle que Mexico jamas fue colonia, fue virreinato. 

No entienden.  Ni lo van a entender nunca.

You'll find that here that rule doesn't apply, here most understand that the woke world view is deeply flawed, racist and sexist.

Of course we have our resident leftists who try to equivocate or who openly claim it's the "humane" way to look at things.

Por ejemplo Shark! es un tipo a toda madre.

I didn't mean to give you a bad impression of this site, so apologies for anything I may have done there. I realize that we of clan gringo talking about who has the best(?) qualifications to talk about a culture probably wasn't the best introduction. Though for the record, I do agree with what you said about culture not working that way and not being a commodity to be owned. I'll openly admit to not knowing shit about Mexican history, or even global history more generally, though even I know better than to think y'all were just some Spanish colony in the British vein or something. Or that our past and present racism should be the lens through which things should be viewed here, much less in other nations. Also, GeekyBugle is awesome and you should totally ask him about his professional game design if y'all wind up gaming together and you'd be interested. Also, I kind of suck at Spanish, even though globally it's a pretty important language, so forgive me if I wind up misinterpreting anything you had said with respect to where I made mistakes. (I'd try to write a properly languaged response, but that's barely better than my speaking, which is frankly less than three year old level.)

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 22, 2023, 11:57:05 PM
I didn't mean to give you a bad impression of this site, so apologies for anything I may have done there. I realize that we of clan gringo talking about who has the best(?) qualifications to talk about a culture probably wasn't the best introduction. Though for the record, I do agree with what you said about culture not working that way and not being a commodity to be owned. I'll openly admit to not knowing shit about Mexican history, or even global history more generally, though even I know better than to think y'all were just some Spanish colony in the British vein or something. Or that our past and present racism should be the lens through which things should be viewed here, much less in other nations. Also, GeekyBugle is awesome and you should totally ask him about his professional game design if y'all wind up gaming together and you'd be interested. Also, I kind of suck at Spanish, even though globally it's a pretty important language, so forgive me if I wind up misinterpreting anything you had said with respect to where I made mistakes. (I'd try to write a properly languaged response, but that's barely better than my speaking, which is frankly less than three year old level.)

Stahp! You're making me blush!

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 22, 2023, 11:57:05 PM
I didn't mean to give you a bad impression of this site, so apologies for anything I may have done there. I realize that we of clan gringo talking about who has the best(?) qualifications to talk about a culture probably wasn't the best introduction. Though for the record, I do agree with what you said about culture not working that way and not being a commodity to be owned. I'll openly admit to not knowing shit about Mexican history, or even global history more generally, though even I know better than to think y'all were just some Spanish colony in the British vein or something. Or that our past and present racism should be the lens through which things should be viewed here, much less in other nations. Also, GeekyBugle is awesome and you should totally ask him about his professional game design if y'all wind up gaming together and you'd be interested. Also, I kind of suck at Spanish, even though globally it's a pretty important language, so forgive me if I wind up misinterpreting anything you had said with respect to where I made mistakes. (I'd try to write a properly languaged response, but that's barely better than my speaking, which is frankly less than three year old level.)

No worries Sir.

Most people don't really know much about history... in the US, Mexico or anywhere else.

I'm happy enough just to see people admit they don't know everything. 

To be honest, there is not much consensus on how to view history in Mexico either, plenty of arguments in that regard.

Just to give you an (unsolicited) idea of one way in which it differs from the US experience... some argue that the Spanish conquered us.  Others argue that this is impossible because Mexicans did not exist before the Spanish came.  Therefore, it is actually the Spanish who created us through the mestizaje (racial mixing).  Some argue that we are totally distinct from the Spanish because of the indigenous racial and cultural influence. And others argue that this is a silly thing to discuss given that we are using a European language (Spanish) and praying to a Middle Eastern God.

So... still fun. 

A more fun question is... where do Filipinos fit into all this? (They were a Spanish colony for 300+ years)

Anyhow.. nay pedo hermano.