Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 20, 2023, 04:26:46 PM

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 20, 2023, 04:16:52 PM
Yeah, this skin-color-predetermined stuff sounds pretty horrible, possibly as bad or worse than I had originally thought.

Also, I want to clarify that I would not in any way want to devalue folks like GeekyBugle's own perspective on their own culture, and it kind of sounds like that's what they did. I want to be clear that I would not support doing something like that, especially since GeekyBugle is an actual ttrpg content producer and writer on top of having that kind of cultural experience. This seems like potentially solid racial discrimination from my perspective.

(Actually, if they had hired him, maybe some of their depictions there would have been less bad in Radiant Citadel, since I heard that there were death cult cartel depiction related issues. Not sure if the latter part was actually a thing, but just saying. They're shooting even themselves in the foot, apparently, with things like this, not that he would likely want to work for such a company.)

Not even our resident aspie (ME!  ) is thinking you're in support of that or even making excuses for them.

There's almost ZERO TTRPG companies/developers I would consider working WITH, working FOR WotKKK? For a penny a word? with their ideological constraints? with their Kultural Kommisars looking over my shoulder? Fuck that noise!

Fair enough. 

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 20, 2023, 04:16:52 PM
Yeah, this skin-color-predetermined stuff sounds pretty horrible, possibly as bad or worse than I had originally thought.  I don't want to, but I feel I have to take WotC at their word that they decided to disqualify whites at the start. Black and brown means excluding some asians too, I think, by default. I suspect even other potentially POC folks may have been disqualified who didn't share the obvious racial makeup for the place whose culture was supposed to inspire an adventure, though I guess the only real proof we have is for folks who aren't of brown or black races being excluded. Which is still terrible enough.

It does sound awful at how East Asian authors were excluded from the collection because they aren't black or brown. Except... I know that East Asian authors were included in the adventure.

Again, I think it's legitimate to select on writers who grew up in the culture they're writing about. Here "lived experience" means that one's childhood and personal life is in the culture, as opposed to studying the culture as a profession - dealing with it from 9 to 5, and then going home to a different culture. This isn't the same as skin color, but it also isn't the same as birthplace. My ex-father-in-law, for example, is white and was born and raised in Venezuela - but he grew up in an oil company expatriate neighborhood, speaking mostly English with other American families. He knows a lot about Venezuela, but he wasn't raised in Venezuelan culture.

As for what WotC actual process was... I realized that GeekyBugle will declare that I'm on the side of the woke and making excuses for them, but I do exactly the same with *all* claims of racism of this sort. It's really common on the Internet for people to look over a game company's social media and find a statement to declare them racist - and I am always skeptical of those claims.

Quote from: jhkim on December 21, 2023, 04:09:15 PM
claims of racism

It's not just a claim when they say flat out what they are doing and use that to promote the product.

Quote from: jhkim on December 21, 2023, 04:09:15 PM
It does sound awful at how East Asian authors were excluded from the collection because they aren't black or brown. Except... I know that East Asian authors were included in the adventure.

They're still the "POCs" that WOTC talk about, though. In fact, I suspect the only reason they weren't included in the original quote was that it was using colours in its racial segregation of the world's population, and they'd be embarassed to refer to East Asians that way.

Quote from: jhkim on December 21, 2023, 04:09:15 PM
Again, I think it's legitimate to select on writers who grew up in the culture they're writing about. Here "lived experience" means that one's childhood and personal life is in the culture, as opposed to studying the culture as a profession - dealing with it from 9 to 5, and then going home to a different culture. This isn't the same as skin color, but it also isn't the same as birthplace. My ex-father-in-law, for example, is white and was born and raised in Venezuela - but he grew up in an oil company expatriate neighborhood, speaking mostly English with other American families. He knows a lot about Venezuela, but he wasn't raised in Venezuelan culture.

This is not about growing up in a culture. Brooke Bruk-Jackson wouldn't have been chosen to write with her experience growing up in Zimbabwe, because she was the wrong race. It's textbook racism.

Quote from: jhkim on December 21, 2023, 04:09:15 PM
As for what WotC actual process was... I realized that GeekyBugle will declare that I'm on the side of the woke and making excuses for them, but I do exactly the same with *all* claims of racism of this sort. It's really common on the Internet for people to look over a game company's social media and find a statement to declare them racist - and I am always skeptical of those claims.

I'm very skeptical of people claiming racism too, especially in this day and age when such claims have been weaponised. But when the people in question explicitly say:

Quote
In June of 2020, I pitched the idea to Jeremy Crawford and Wes Schneider at the D&D Studio for a book written by Black and brown writers.

why would I doubt them? It's possible that they ignored race in picking people to work on the book, but happened to find the best writers were all non-white, then crowed about that and also lied, claiming that they had been racist when they hadn't. Possible, but the likelihood is overwhelmingly against that version of events. They're spelled out exactly what they did.

Let me put it to you another way: people say the KKK is racist. They admit that they are racist. Do you umm and ahh, wondering whether they are racist? If not, what's the difference between the two?

Apparently the pitch either did not line up with the final product, and I was wrong about Asians specifically being excluded. (Just the non-POC, in execution of the plan formed around race based disqualification, being excluded.) Or the pitch considered them to be grouped in with darker hues of skin color when push came to shove. In either case, wouldn't really change the nature of the original pitch, the marketing on the basis of authorial race, or much else for that matter. I do appreciate the correction with respect to specific fact. I guess I was wrong about the degree to which they were racist and using race as a disqualifying factor. They targeted only whites for skin based disqualification, and not POC, it would seem.

Hell, maybe they even lied about the book being written solely by POC, or that being the original intent. If you come across a white author (probably with some sort of fancy identity or the like to make up for it), that would indeed be good to know and I would indeed reconsider further some of my understanding of the situation. That said, I kinda doubt it.

Quote from: Krazz on December 21, 2023, 05:10:50 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 21, 2023, 04:09:15 PM
Again, I think it's legitimate to select on writers who grew up in the culture they're writing about. Here "lived experience" means that one's childhood and personal life is in the culture, as opposed to studying the culture as a profession - dealing with it from 9 to 5, and then going home to a different culture. This isn't the same as skin color, but it also isn't the same as birthplace. My ex-father-in-law, for example, is white and was born and raised in Venezuela - but he grew up in an oil company expatriate neighborhood, speaking mostly English with other American families. He knows a lot about Venezuela, but he wasn't raised in Venezuelan culture.

This is not about growing up in a culture. Brooke Bruk-Jackson wouldn't have been chosen to write with her experience growing up in Zimbabwe, because she was the wrong race. It's textbook racism.

So, there are three Hispanic authors in the book, and two of them wrote fantasy based on post-colonial culture - though still with distinct non-European aspects like Day of the Dead, ghost orchids, and tepui. I don't know the authors' genetic makeup. Maybe they are mixed race, maybe they are pure native, or maybe they are white.

You suggest that in recruiting them, WotC checked first about their ancestry rather than about the culture they grew up in. Maybe they did. We could ask the Hispanic authors if WotC tried to confirm about their genetics first.

Still, the declared idea was that the authors write from lived experience of non-white cultures. You're choosing to skip that part, and assume that they chose based on author genetics, and thus there is no way they'd choose a genetically white Venezuelan.

I don't know. I'll state that I don't agree with choosing based on author genetics, but choosing based on the author's raised culture is reasonable.

Honestly, the skin color pitch moves me away from feeling I could easily give them the benefit of the doubt. They outright said it was intended from the start to be a fantasy series written by black and brown authors, with that as a qualifying factor being apparent if the pitch was actually followed through on. That and then afterwards marketing the book in advance as having been intended as written by POCs. (Hence by definition not considering non-POCs, I would guess?)

It seems like strong circumstantial evidence combined with a confession, for me. I'm not the most knowledgeable on all this, and on some things like thinking they discriminated within POC I'll admit I jumped the gun. But I do think they considered biology a disqualifying factor.

And they did so not within the context of "Oh it's a book on growing up black in part of the south and you grew up black in the south, so we'll give you high marks on fit, as opposed to lower marks for those who didn't." but rather within the context (if I understand correctly) of "We want fantasy written by POC, which will mirror in flavor where they are culturally AND biologically from, and you are not a POC, so you are disqualified (by race) even if you grew up in Mexico." Now again, I could be wrong on this. But it seems to me like we should take them at their word when they have not retracted or outright contradicted prior statements.

I can appreciate that jhkim understands it would be wrong to discriminate and disqualify on the basis of race. Even if not with respect to POC. I also understand wanting to give folks the benefit of the doubt where it may be warranted. That said, in this instance it does not to me seem warranted, on account of the specific situation at hand.

Quote from: jhkim on December 22, 2023, 01:57:29 PM

Quote from: Krazz on December 21, 2023, 05:10:50 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 21, 2023, 04:09:15 PM
Again, I think it's legitimate to select on writers who grew up in the culture they're writing about. Here "lived experience" means that one's childhood and personal life is in the culture, as opposed to studying the culture as a profession - dealing with it from 9 to 5, and then going home to a different culture. This isn't the same as skin color, but it also isn't the same as birthplace. My ex-father-in-law, for example, is white and was born and raised in Venezuela - but he grew up in an oil company expatriate neighborhood, speaking mostly English with other American families. He knows a lot about Venezuela, but he wasn't raised in Venezuelan culture.

This is not about growing up in a culture. Brooke Bruk-Jackson wouldn't have been chosen to write with her experience growing up in Zimbabwe, because she was the wrong race. It's textbook racism.

So, there are three Hispanic authors in the book, and two of them wrote fantasy based on post-colonial culture - though still with distinct non-European aspects like Day of the Dead, ghost orchids, and tepui. I don't know the authors' genetic makeup. Maybe they are mixed race, maybe they are pure native, or maybe they are white.

You suggest that in recruiting them, WotC checked first about their ancestry rather than about the culture they grew up in. Maybe they did. We could ask the Hispanic authors if WotC tried to confirm about their genetics first.

Still, the declared idea was that the authors write from lived experience of non-white cultures. You're choosing to skip that part, and assume that they chose based on author genetics, and thus there is no way they'd choose a genetically white Venezuelan.

I don't know. I'll state that I don't agree with choosing based on author genetics, but choosing based on the author's raised culture is reasonable.

"But maybe, if you squint hard enough it's not racist!"

Come one dude, why would ANYONE give them the benefit of the doubt when they clearly state their intentions?

Do you do the same for the KKK?

A few points of contention:

There's EXACTLY zero "pure native" people in latin America (I find the term highly racist but I'm using YOUR terms), doesn't matter how "brown" they are they are all mixed race.

The ONLY "pure white" people here are those who immigrated recently or are first generation born here from TWO "white" parents.

Your position that by "growing in a culture" someone has some magical knowledge of it that couldn't be gained and surpased by research is assinine.

Define "non-white culture", because in Latin America I know of not a single country that's either white or non-white, much less the cultures, since those come from 500 fucking years on interbreeding and mashing and mixing together our European Ancestors culture with those of the indigenous people that were conquered.

Let me give you a pro-tip:

Non racist pitch: We'll choose the best creators to write this book we can find with the deepest knowledge of whatever they want to write about.

Racist pitch:

QuoteIn June of 2020, I pitched the idea to Jeremy Crawford and Wes Schneider at the D&D Studio for a book written by Black and brown writers.

I'll point to you how ONLY one mentions skin color.

Why are you so intent on obfuscating this clear fact from their own mouths is beyond me, especially since you claim not to be on the side of the woke.

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 22, 2023, 02:35:17 PM
Honestly, the skin color pitch moves me away from feeling I could easily give them the benefit of the doubt. They outright said it was intended from the start to be a fantasy series written by black and brown authors, with that as a qualifying factor being apparent if the pitch was actually followed through on. That and then afterwards marketing the book in advance as having been intended as written by POCs. (Hence by definition not considering non-POCs, I would guess?)

It seems like strong circumstantial evidence combined with a confession, for me. I'm not the most knowledgeable on all this, and on some things like thinking they discriminated within POC I'll admit I jumped the gun. But I do think they considered biology a disqualifying factor.

And they did so not within the context of "Oh it's a book on growing up black in part of the south and you grew up black in the south, so we'll give you high marks on fit, as opposed to lower marks for those who didn't." but rather within the context (if I understand correctly) of "We want fantasy written by POC, which will mirror in flavor where they are culturally AND biologically from, and you are not a POC, so you are disqualified (by race) even if you grew up in Mexico." Now again, I could be wrong on this. But it seems to me like we should take them at their word when they have not retracted or outright contradicted prior statements.

I can appreciate that jhkim understands it would be wrong to discriminate and disqualify on the basis of race. Even if not with respect to POC. I also understand wanting to give folks the benefit of the doubt where it may be warranted. That said, in this instance it does not to me seem warranted, on account of the specific situation at hand.

They considered skin color, which is the most egregious shit I can think of.

I've got a friend of many years whose family, due to their ancestry constantly produces blond, red head and "brown" children. So of this 3 brothers (two brothers and a sister actually), only the brown one would qualify as a writer because he's brown, not the red headed girl, nor the blond boy.

Furthermore, they included "Santa" Muerte as part of our culture, fuck that shit, that's Narco Culture (think also the MS13 animals worship that demon).

Here comes Jhkim to the defense of the megacorporation (for reasons that escape me) declaring they will and did discriminate in the basis of the writer's skin color, to say that "hey maybe they didn't!" WTAFF!?

Speaking about "Non-White" cultures in Latin America? Dude should stick to speaking about what he knows, becauyse he obviously has exactly ZERO knowledge about Latin America.

I'll renew my invitation to him: Define what you mean by "Non-White" cultures. Because in Latin America there's not a single "White Culture" we've been interbreeding biologically and culturally for 500 fucking years.

Now, after he groks that, he can maybe explain what magic grants the brown son a deeper understanding of the exact same culture he and his brother and sister were born and raised in.

I would like to jump in here a bit to say that...

Much of the argumentation here seems to yield to the assumption that a person's race lends them authenticity in some way.

One's race (subjective as it is) gives them no claim on culture.  In fact, nothing gives you a claim on culture as it is not something to be owned.  It cannot be commodified in that way.

Yielding to this position inherently supports the position of racial essentialists and allows them to dictate the parameters of the debate.

Y para ser mucho mas directo... me vale un puto carajo lo que opinan los gringos sobre quien si, o quien no, tiene el derecho de hablar por parte de los Latinos. 

Quote from: jhkim on December 22, 2023, 01:57:29 PM
You suggest that in recruiting them, WotC checked first about their ancestry rather than about the culture they grew up in. Maybe they did. We could ask the Hispanic authors if WotC tried to confirm about their genetics first.

No, I don't "suggest" it. WOTC outright state it:

Quote
In June of 2020, I pitched the idea to Jeremy Crawford and Wes Schneider at the D&D Studio for a book written by Black and brown writers.

How did they check their race? I don't know. Maybe they asked them. Maybe they looked at pictures of them and guessed. Maybe they assumed everyone from Latin America is a POC. There's a good chance that the authors don't know how they were chosen. Even after being chosen, WOTC claimed that:

Quote
This is the first D&D book conceived, created, and written entirely by PoCs

So WOTC appear to have satisfied themselves as to the races of the authors. Why bother if they were just going for different cultures?

Quote from: jhkim on December 22, 2023, 01:57:29 PM
Still, the declared idea was that the authors write from lived experience of non-white cultures. You're choosing to skip that part, and assume that they chose based on author genetics, and thus there is no way they'd choose a genetically white Venezuelan.

No, the declared idea, right from the pitch, was to hire based on race. You're choosing to skip that part. They then celebrated the author races (not cultures) after the book was written. And I'm not "assuming" that they chose based on author genetics. Let's have that quote from WOTC again:

Quote
In June of 2020, I pitched the idea to Jeremy Crawford and Wes Schneider at the D&D Studio for a book written by Black and brown writers.

If people saying that they chose to go about something in a racist way, isn't enough to convince you of racism, may I ask what your standard is?

Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on December 22, 2023, 03:44:53 PM
I would like to jump in here a bit to say that...

Much of the argumentation here seems to yield to the assumption that a person's race lends them authenticity in some way.

One's race (subjective as it is) gives them no claim on culture.  In fact, nothing gives you a claim on culture as it is not something to be owned.  It cannot be commodified in that way.

Yielding to this position inherently supports the position of racial essentialists and allows them to dictate the parameters of the debate.

Y para ser mucho mas directo... me vale un puto carajo lo que opinan los gringos sobre quien si, o quien no, tiene el derecho de hablar por parte de los Latinos.

Primero que nada: Bienvenido! Mexicano?

After the niceties, yes, I agree 100% it's the crux of my argument.

This is fair. I don't think in retrospect I should even have allowed for that possibility with my wording. There is no such thing as white culture, as understood best by whites. So it would indeed be racist to assume anything exists like that for other skin colors. Understanding of culture or society, and skin color, do not relate.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 22, 2023, 03:48:58 PM

Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on December 22, 2023, 03:44:53 PM
I would like to jump in here a bit to say that...

Much of the argumentation here seems to yield to the assumption that a person's race lends them authenticity in some way.

One's race (subjective as it is) gives them no claim on culture.  In fact, nothing gives you a claim on culture as it is not something to be owned.  It cannot be commodified in that way.

Yielding to this position inherently supports the position of racial essentialists and allows them to dictate the parameters of the debate.

Y para ser mucho mas directo... me vale un puto carajo lo que opinan los gringos sobre quien si, o quien no, tiene el derecho de hablar por parte de los Latinos.

Primero que nada: Bienvenido! Mexicano?

After the niceties, yes, I agree 100% it's the crux of my argument.

A huevo! 

Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on December 22, 2023, 03:57:29 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 22, 2023, 03:48:58 PM

Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on December 22, 2023, 03:44:53 PM
I would like to jump in here a bit to say that...

Much of the argumentation here seems to yield to the assumption that a person's race lends them authenticity in some way.

One's race (subjective as it is) gives them no claim on culture.  In fact, nothing gives you a claim on culture as it is not something to be owned.  It cannot be commodified in that way.

Yielding to this position inherently supports the position of racial essentialists and allows them to dictate the parameters of the debate.

Y para ser mucho mas directo... me vale un puto carajo lo que opinan los gringos sobre quien si, o quien no, tiene el derecho de hablar por parte de los Latinos.

Primero que nada: Bienvenido! Mexicano?

After the niceties, yes, I agree 100% it's the crux of my argument.

A huevo! 

Bienvenido paisano! De donde eres? Yo de chilangolandia.