Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 15, 2023, 02:21:46 PMUp until D&D became popular how were nerds treated by women?

Now, maybe some of those really wanted to play with us but there was social pressure to shun us.

Now they are playing and still want to shun us, to expell us from OUR hobbies.

Gaming in the 90's and 2000's, I never played in a game with a girl that wasn't the wife or GF of a player/GM, and it was very rare. Of those ladies, not a one knew rules well, and most were clearly there on sufferance.  RPGs were girl kryptonite, and we were always ecstatic to get ANY new players, so there was no barrier.

After a break, getting back into rpg's in the 2010's, women were suddenly playing. But they are always young, still no more than say 1-in-8 ratio wise, and only the autistic girls are interested in the nuts and bolts of game mechanics. The rest are just there for the acting-with-dice aspect.

EDIT:
As far as shunning goes, the young women shun to the degree that they are, to a woman, left leaning and progressive.

The real problem people I've gamed with were an incredibly toxic Trans-Woman with a Dark Triad personality, and an ethnic minority guy that pulled the racism card like other people pull a Bus Pass.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 14, 2023, 07:56:40 PM

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 14, 2023, 07:41:20 PM
I'd say that sure, hiring for authorship with race as a required credential would qualify, and WotC indeed does that, and has mentioned doing that specifically as part of its advertising.

If you take race, gender, sexuality into consideration in your hiring practices IDGAFF what your intentions are, it's discrimination and in the US (and my country) illegal. It's not that it can go too far, it has already crossed the line into "No, GFY".

Regarding discrimination, my question is -- is WotC actually a place where non-whites have all the high-paying jobs and qualified white people can't get ahead because of systematic discrimination? i.e. If there was a fair judge and jury, could the white people working there make a case that they were being systematically discriminated against?

Or is it a place where white people are in charge and have tossed some one-time token contracts to non-whites for a pittance to get some visibility?

In some workplaces, people of X race could be systematically discriminated against being hired and advancement -- and also, a few people of X race are token hires - i.e. hired because of their race for low-paying jobs just so that the company can pad their demographics.

Legally, one can take things like gender, national origin, race, and religion into account for contracts if it is relevant to the specific work. It's illegal for a company to systematically discriminate against Irish people. It's not illegal for a company to want to hire an Irish writer for a story about Ireland. One could say "Oh, but shouldn't they consider a non-Irish person who has studied Ireland?" -- but that's up to them. They could decide that growing up in an Irish family is important to the perspective they want.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 14, 2023, 07:56:40 PM
WotC IS Woke, because of all of those and then some, IDGAFF if their books contain 1% wokery or none, why should I support a corporation that hates me for my skin color, religion, sex and sexuality?

And no Jhkim, "there's only 1%, there's no X" isn't proof it isn't woke, you keep trying to deflect to one book and point that it isn't, it has ONLY 1% or it doesn't have X, as if any of that (even if true) cancels all of the above, hint: It doesn't.

No one is asking you to support WotC. You can hate it and you can rail against it all you want. However, if you start going on about "Now WotC's adventures are all about going to prom and making friends" or "Now all dungeons are wheelchair accessible" or "Now it requires player consent for anything bad to happen to any PC" -- then you're not talking about reality, because that's not what the books are actually like.

The actual content is still about killing goblins and mind flayers and other evil beings that are doing evil, and collecting treasure and rewards.

I cited the six recent books over the last four years that I have, and I am talking about the mass of all those books. I am not deflecting to a single book or isolated passages. I'm talking about the overall substance of the books. If I ran The Shattered Obelisk for a D&D group in the 1990s, they wouldn't notice anything all that different about it (aside from the 5E mechanics). If I ran Dragon of Icespire Peak, they might notice the gay NPC on page XX -- which is different because TSR didn't allow any gay NPCs in any modules. But the rest of the adventure would be as expected.

I don't disagree that there are some token nods like this, but that's different than claiming about the overall substance of the books.

Quote from: jhkim on December 15, 2023, 03:51:27 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 14, 2023, 07:56:40 PM

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 14, 2023, 07:41:20 PM
I'd say that sure, hiring for authorship with race as a required credential would qualify, and WotC indeed does that, and has mentioned doing that specifically as part of its advertising.

If you take race, gender, sexuality into consideration in your hiring practices IDGAFF what your intentions are, it's discrimination and in the US (and my country) illegal. It's not that it can go too far, it has already crossed the line into "No, GFY".

Regarding discrimination, my question is -- is WotC actually a place where non-whites have all the high-paying jobs and qualified white people can't get ahead because of systematic discrimination? i.e. If there was a fair judge and jury, could the white people working there make a case that they were being systematically discriminated against?

Or is it a place where white people are in charge and have tossed some one-time token contracts to non-whites for a pittance to get some visibility?

In some workplaces, people of X race could be systematically discriminated against being hired and advancement -- and also, a few people of X race are token hires - i.e. hired because of their race for low-paying jobs just so that the company can pad their demographics.

Legally, one can take things like gender, national origin, race, and religion into account for contracts if it is relevant to the specific work. It's illegal for a company to systematically discriminate against Irish people. It's not illegal for a company to want to hire an Irish writer for a story about Ireland. One could say "Oh, but shouldn't they consider a non-Irish person who has studied Ireland?" -- but that's up to them. They could decide that growing up in an Irish family is important to the perspective they want.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 14, 2023, 07:56:40 PM
WotC IS Woke, because of all of those and then some, IDGAFF if their books contain 1% wokery or none, why should I support a corporation that hates me for my skin color, religion, sex and sexuality?

And no Jhkim, "there's only 1%, there's no X" isn't proof it isn't woke, you keep trying to deflect to one book and point that it isn't, it has ONLY 1% or it doesn't have X, as if any of that (even if true) cancels all of the above, hint: It doesn't.

No one is asking you to support WotC. You can hate it and you can rail against it all you want. However, if you start going on about "Now WotC's adventures are all about going to prom and making friends" or "Now all dungeons are wheelchair accessible" or "Now it requires player consent for anything bad to happen to any PC" -- then you're not talking about reality, because that's not what the books are actually like.

The actual content is still about killing goblins and mind flayers and other evil beings that are doing evil, and collecting treasure and rewards.

I cited the six recent books over the last four years that I have, and I am talking about the mass of all those books. I am not deflecting to a single book or isolated passages. I'm talking about the overall substance of the books. If I ran The Shattered Obelisk for a D&D group in the 1990s, they wouldn't notice anything all that different about it (aside from the 5E mechanics). If I ran Dragon of Icespire Peak, they might notice the gay NPC on page XX -- which is different because TSR didn't allow any gay NPCs in any modules. But the rest of the adventure would be as expected.

I don't disagree that there are some token nods like this, but that's different than claiming about the overall substance of the books.

So, you're okay with discrimination as long as the upper echelons are white people, nice of you to own to it.

Besides pointing to a disparity, can you show ANY evidence of discrimination against non-whites, women, LGBTQWIFiPassword? IF there was any they would get sued, like Disney just got sued by 9000 women. They are in Commiefornia after all.

Again, the question doesn't say if books from X publisher are woke, but if the publisher IS woke, you can't say it isn't (when the evidence shows it is) by pointing to the published books.

Besides your known woke tendencies blind you to wokeness.

So, jhkim, with respect to the legality and morality of hiring based on race and the like...

I personally would find it abhorrent for anybody to say that when writing about say, europe, one needs to be of european heritage, even if they have lived in europe or professionally studied it. Because it straight up assumes that bloodline is more important than say knowledge of the subject at hand. I would understand preferring to some extent folks for a book on living in Nigeria who have lived in or grown up in say Nigeria, because that's not an immutable birth trait, and may actually denote some degree of understanding with respect to the specific subject at hand, sure. It could even be a big factor. But if the basic qualifying requirement were to write about Africa more broadly, you must be of pure African heritage, that seems pretty messed up to me. WotC took it a step further. They outright selected based on race, not even nationality, as a NECESSARY prerequisite for writing fantasy books with African-esque themes. (On which note, one could actually also argue they did some folks dirty in places like Radiant Citadel, and that they did nevertheless write other ethnicities in potentially offensive or whatnot ways, though I'm not even going to go into that.) That is toxic in many respects, and I trust you to see the applicable difference there.

As regards legality... I think it pretty clearly should be illegal to discriminate on immutable racial traits in that way. If it were somebody claiming European-fantasy requires European blood or white perspective, I'd want them prosecuted and bankrupt for doing that. And I think the state would be well within its rights. Under title 7, I'm pretty sure it's consistently been ruled that all races are protected from having hiring being determined with race as a disqualifying factor. I guess you'll probably argue they could make a BFOQ argument (though race is not mentioned as getting an out through this loophole), but even there you would have to prove that ancestry is a requirement to write African fiction competently. (Notably, it can't just be better or preferred by customers if such cases as flight attendants, minority customer pairings with minority service [even in the public sector], and the current shift away in the courts from recognizing female sex at say Hooters as a necessary qualification for certain positions are to be referenced.) And we shouldn't want them to succeed, because that would basically be sanctioning the ACTUAL alt-right to use that as a defense against hiring POCs to write (insert white culture here) fiction. I also would be leery of giving the go-ahead for race-based artistic discrimination, basically corporate censorship, on the basis of corporate speech or something. Whether left or alt-right, it's not okay.

And to end this on a personal note, I think it's not wrong to have settings which incorporate from other cultures and give them exposure. And I actually think playing and writing characters who aren't 100% like yourself broadens horizons and increases representation and diversity of opinion/perspective. Also, it avoids the horrible idea of corporations censoring people or stereotyping authorial and cultural credentials on the basis of race.

The plain language of the Civil Rights Act makes discrimination based on race illegal.  The courts have been finding creative to get around that since they first needed to justify affirmative action policies that clearly violate the plain meaning of that law.  So you're protected against discrimination based on race unless the court wants to promote the discriminatory policy in question.  Then the 14th amendment suddenly has an unstated, underlying purpose of fighting oppression that no one has ever seen before so it's okay to discriminate against white people because oppression.  The courts have been quite creative in coming up with pretenses to ignore what the Civil Rights Act says in very clear language. 

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 19, 2023, 08:22:06 PM
So, jhkim, with respect to the legality and morality of hiring based on race and the like...

I personally would find it abhorrent for anybody to say that when writing about say, europe, one needs to be of european heritage, even if they have lived in europe or professionally studied it. Because it straight up assumes that bloodline is more important than say knowledge of the subject at hand. I would understand preferring to some extent folks for a book on living in Nigeria who have lived in or grown up in say Nigeria, because that's not an immutable birth trait, and may actually denote some degree of understanding with respect to the specific subject at hand, sure. It could even be a big factor. But if the basic qualifying requirement were to write about Africa more broadly, you must be of pure African heritage, that seems pretty messed up to me. WotC took it a step further. They outright selected based on race, not even nationality, as a NECESSARY prerequisite for writing fantasy books with African-esque themes.

Maybe you're correct - I think it would take a lawsuit to look into the details of the hiring process. I don't know the inside story. According to you, they only looked at bloodline and didn't consider the writer's background and culture. A lawsuit could show that they passed over more qualified white candidates to write the same material.

Still, for decades, I've seen a lot of back-and-forth over "Look, we hired a non-white person" - which is then responded to with "You only hired them because they're non-white so it's a racist token hire."

I question your characterization in particular because the book doesn't have much African-themed material. There are 2 of 14 adventures which have mini-settings inspired by the Empire of Mali, but the rest is non-African.

The question is -- would the book be more true to its writing goals if only they hired more white writers? I don't know the background of most of the authors, but in a previous thread on this, someone criticized the Mexican-themed adventure, and in discussing that author (Mario Ortegón), I found he was born, raised, and living in Mexico. That is lived experience, and relevant to writing a Mexican-themed fantasy adventure. If they had hired someone of Mexican ancestry who was adopted and didn't speak Spanish, the criticism would have more weight, but they didn't.

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 19, 2023, 08:22:06 PM
And to end this on a personal note, I think it's not wrong to have settings which incorporate from other cultures and give them exposure. And I actually think playing and writing characters who aren't 100% like yourself broadens horizons and increases representation and diversity of opinion/perspective. Also, it avoids the horrible idea of corporations censoring people or stereotyping authorial and cultural credentials on the basis of race.

I agree about this. My current D&D setting is based on Incan culture, which I have no ethnic tie to. I obviously don't think there's anything wrong with that. But, I think a Quechua-speaking author from Peru would have insights that I don't have on Incan and Andean culture, and I don't think it is racist to acknowledge that.

It's not that they didn't consider other factors, but that race was used as a disqualifying factor that I was referring to. It's not about lived international experience, or if it is then a prerequisite for that to matter is skin color. That's never okay. Also, if it wasn't actually on Africa/Middle East/Wherever other "culture", that kind of just proves my point. I honestly didn't think they'd go that far, and thought they had a more solid defense.

I don't want more white writers, I want fair and lawful hiring practices. (Not that you'll find a plaintiff with standing and the pockets or courage to challenge them on this.) And I'd understand based on multiple facts about WotC and their past and present characterization that this is not what is currently happening. Not even fair in firing. (They dropped a whole lot of competent and high producing employees lately, many who were somewhat woke sure, but still more skilled than those who got kept on the basis of woke credentialing.) I think it hurts the company too, which has to mean something to fans of their work. (I used to be one, and it's a bummer watching them both discriminate and also destroy themselves.)

I also think that when something like this happens it undermines not only faith in but also the operations of actual anti-discriminatory laws on hiring. Because the point there is not to give undue preference to a given group based on skin color or the like, but to prevent disqualification or disfavor based on the same. Or, dare I say it, to prevent a group from being hired in part due to inborn attributes linked to racial, sexual, etcetera identity. Not least because when you talk about folks jeering the hiring of minorities simply because they are not white, I'm pretty sure that's also what's being talked about. Clear hiring bias towards white, straight, or heterosexual or whatever stuff is bad too, you see.

I can acknowledge, as listed earlier, that lived experience within a culture or nation or religion can be valuable for writing or knowing about said items. So too research, which can even be necessary in a heavy sense to prevent serious error if you are unfamiliar. Still, I'm genuinely fearful given what WotC has done without any real pushback or reprisal, given Rokugan, and given wider trends within the TTRPG world that race is becoming considered a credential on other cultures, nations, or religions. For writers, at the table, etcetera. It's disturbing in part because it undermines the actual credentialing of having studied or experienced said culture, nation, or religion. That's not even talking about the credential of race for appearing on panels or at conventions or the like, which is a separate issue that could be discussed, I feel.

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 20, 2023, 11:05:53 AM
It's not that they didn't consider other factors, but that race was used as a disqualifying factor that I was referring to. It's not about lived international experience, or if it is then a prerequisite for that to matter is skin color. That's never okay. Also, if it wasn't actually on Africa/Middle East/Wherever other "culture", that kind of just proves my point. I honestly didn't think they'd go that far, and thought they had a more solid defense.

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 20, 2023, 11:05:53 AM
I can acknowledge, as listed earlier, that lived experience within a culture or nation or religion can be valuable for writing or knowing about said items. So too research, which can even be necessary in a heavy sense to prevent serious error if you are unfamiliar.

Again, I don't claim to know the internal hiring practices at WotC. I'm not an insider. You claim that they looked only at skin color first, and lived experience was only a secondary consideration - so they unlawfully discriminated against qualified white writers with more relevant lived experience. If so, then yes, this is discriminatory.

I'm skeptical, though, since you don't know the content of the book - so I'd also question how much you know about the hiring practices.

It seems possible to me that they hired directly for lived experience in non-white cultures.

If they did select for authorship of the literature based on weighting cultural and national experience, and did not disqualify based on race, and the experience held was within the context of the stories they would be writing, then I would agree that might well be understandable. I could indeed be wrong on this. That said, I had heard that they decided in advance select works and books such as radiant citadel stuff would be POC-only (whites disqualified by race), and advertised in part based on that. If I am wrong, you or others should obviously feel free to correct me as to the specifics.

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 20, 2023, 02:53:34 PM
If they did select for authorship of the literature based on weighting cultural and national experience, and did not disqualify based on race, and the experience held was within the context of the stories they would be writing, then I would agree that might well be understandable. I could indeed be wrong on this. That said, I had heard that they decided in advance select works and books such as radiant citadel stuff would be POC-only (whites disqualified by race), and advertised in part based on that. If I am wrong, you or others should obviously feel free to correct me as to the specifics.

From https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2022/03/dd-journeys-through-the-radiant-citadel-wotcs-first-ever-poc-led-book-and-other-details.html#SnippetTab:

Quote
In June of 2020, I pitched the idea to Jeremy Crawford and Wes Schneider at the D&D Studio for a book written by Black and brown writers.

and

Quote
There is so much we've accomplished with this unbelievable book:
...
This is the first D&D book conceived, created, and written entirely by PoCs

So you remembered correctly, POC-only by design, and used as a selling point.

Quote from: Krazz on December 20, 2023, 03:05:49 PM

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 20, 2023, 02:53:34 PM
If they did select for authorship of the literature based on weighting cultural and national experience, and did not disqualify based on race, and the experience held was within the context of the stories they would be writing, then I would agree that might well be understandable. I could indeed be wrong on this. That said, I had heard that they decided in advance select works and books such as radiant citadel stuff would be POC-only (whites disqualified by race), and advertised in part based on that. If I am wrong, you or others should obviously feel free to correct me as to the specifics.

From https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2022/03/dd-journeys-through-the-radiant-citadel-wotcs-first-ever-poc-led-book-and-other-details.html#SnippetTab:

Quote
In June of 2020, I pitched the idea to Jeremy Crawford and Wes Schneider at the D&D Studio for a book written by Black and brown writers.

and

Quote
There is so much we've accomplished with this unbelievable book:
...
This is the first D&D book conceived, created, and written entirely by PoCs

So you remembered correctly, POC-only by design, and used as a selling point.

In the first quote, you snipped out of the paragraph. The full quote reads:

QuoteIn June of 2020, I pitched the idea to Jeremy Crawford and Wes Schneider at the D&D Studio for a book written by Black and brown writers. The idea was to create new places and lands based on our cultures, histories, myths, and lived experiences. To my surprise and joy, they agreed and asked me to co-lead it with Wes Schneider!

The question with KindaMeh was whether they were selecting for skin color, or whether they were selecting for lived personal experience of non-white cultures. Again, I'm not claiming that I know what they actually did, but leaving out that part of the quote is deceptive.

Quote from: jhkim on December 20, 2023, 03:40:00 PM

Quote from: Krazz on December 20, 2023, 03:05:49 PM

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 20, 2023, 02:53:34 PM
If they did select for authorship of the literature based on weighting cultural and national experience, and did not disqualify based on race, and the experience held was within the context of the stories they would be writing, then I would agree that might well be understandable. I could indeed be wrong on this. That said, I had heard that they decided in advance select works and books such as radiant citadel stuff would be POC-only (whites disqualified by race), and advertised in part based on that. If I am wrong, you or others should obviously feel free to correct me as to the specifics.

From https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2022/03/dd-journeys-through-the-radiant-citadel-wotcs-first-ever-poc-led-book-and-other-details.html#SnippetTab:

Quote
In June of 2020, I pitched the idea to Jeremy Crawford and Wes Schneider at the D&D Studio for a book written by Black and brown writers.

and

Quote
There is so much we've accomplished with this unbelievable book:
...
This is the first D&D book conceived, created, and written entirely by PoCs

So you remembered correctly, POC-only by design, and used as a selling point.

In the first quote, you snipped out of the paragraph. The full quote reads:

QuoteIn June of 2020, I pitched the idea to Jeremy Crawford and Wes Schneider at the D&D Studio for a book written by Black and brown writers. The idea was to create new places and lands based on our cultures, histories, myths, and lived experiences. To my surprise and joy, they agreed and asked me to co-lead it with Wes Schneider!

The question with KindaMeh was whether they were selecting for skin color, or whether they were selecting for lived personal experience of non-white cultures. Again, I'm not claiming that I know what they actually did, but leaving out that part of the quote is deceptive.

So, a "brown" Mexican knows more about Mexican culture by virtue of being brown? What about a Japanese woman who has spent 20 years studying our culture?

"lived-experience" define this in a noin self referential way and that's falsifiable.

"non-white cultures" Are you aware that the majority of latinos aren't what you would call "brown"? So how exactly is Mexican culture non-white? And it is Mexican culture not prehispanic.

But even if it were pre-hispanic, now you selected a "brown" Mexican over a Japanese woman that has spent 30 years studying Aztec culture. Why? In what way does his nationality, place of residence and skin color make him more able to write about the Aztecs?

You're just dancing and waving your arms to try and deflect from the clear racial discrimination.

Why couldn't I a "white" Mexican write about my culture? In which way does his skin color make him better suited than me to do so? So, given that Mexican culture isn't "non-white", and that even if it were merelly by virtue of your ethnicity you don't have a magical knowledge of it it's a racist thing to do.

Just like they clearly said.

"But I don't know what they did!"

Well, they ARE telling the world EXACTLY what they did!

Why are you so unwilling to take them at their word?

Because the upper echelons of WotKKK are huwhite? That's what justifies discrimination?

Seriously Jhkim you need to stop and reasses your positions.

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 20, 2023, 02:53:34 PM
If they did select for authorship of the literature based on weighting cultural and national experience, and did not disqualify based on race, and the experience held was within the context of the stories they would be writing, then I would agree that might well be understandable. I could indeed be wrong on this. That said, I had heard that they decided in advance select works and books such as radiant citadel stuff would be POC-only (whites disqualified by race), and advertised in part based on that. If I am wrong, you or others should obviously feel free to correct me as to the specifics.

But they did disqualify huwhites by virtue of their skin color, as proven by their own words:

Quote
In June of 2020, I pitched the idea to Jeremy Crawford and Wes Schneider at the D&D Studio for a book written by Black and brown writers.

So, because I'm "white" I'm less qualified to write about my own culture than a "brown" Mexican?

How?

Answer: Because WotC is woke, and woke (just like progressivism) is a racist ideology.

Yeah, this skin-color-predetermined stuff sounds pretty horrible, possibly as bad or worse than I had originally thought.  I don't want to, but I feel I have to take WotC at their word that they decided to disqualify whites at the start. Black and brown means excluding some asians too, I think, by default. I suspect even other potentially POC folks may have been disqualified who didn't share the obvious racial makeup for the place whose culture was supposed to inspire an adventure, though I guess the only real proof we have is for folks who aren't of brown or black races being excluded. Which is still terrible enough.

Also, I want to clarify that I would not in any way want to devalue folks like GeekyBugle's own perspective on their own culture, and it kind of sounds like that's what they did. I want to be clear that I would not support doing something like that, especially since GeekyBugle is an actual ttrpg content producer and writer on top of having that kind of cultural experience. This seems like potentially solid racial discrimination from my perspective.

(Actually, if they had hired him, maybe some of their depictions there would have been less bad in Radiant Citadel, since I heard that there were death cult cartel depiction related issues. Not sure if the latter part was actually a thing, but just saying. They're shooting even themselves in the foot, apparently, with things like this, not that he would likely want to work for such a company.)

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 20, 2023, 04:16:52 PM
Yeah, this skin-color-predetermined stuff sounds pretty horrible, possibly as bad or worse than I had originally thought.

Also, I want to clarify that I would not in any way want to devalue folks like GeekyBugle's own perspective on their own culture, and it kind of sounds like that's what they did. I want to be clear that I would not support doing something like that, especially since GeekyBugle is an actual ttrpg content producer and writer on top of having that kind of cultural experience. This seems like potentially solid racial discrimination from my perspective.

(Actually, if they had hired him, maybe some of their depictions there would have been less bad in Radiant Citadel, since I heard that there were death cult cartel depiction related issues. Not sure if the latter part was actually a thing, but just saying. They're shooting even themselves in the foot, apparently, with things like this, not that he would likely want to work for such a company.)

Not even our resident aspie (ME!  ) is thinking you're in support of that or even making excuses for them.

There's almost ZERO TTRPG companies/developers I would consider working WITH, working FOR WotKKK? For a penny a word? with their ideological constraints? with their Kultural Kommisars looking over my shoulder? Fuck that noise!