Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 10, 2023, 05:15:20 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2023, 07:58:30 PM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 08, 2023, 09:15:55 AM
Well, before throwing up your hands... or tentacles and giving up, I'd say just give it a try.  Cha'alt X-Cards, for all their similarity to amateur improv theater, has specific parameters that make it easier to use.  For instance, the card designations throw Cha'altian tropes at you that GMs should already be employing.  The detail can be as big or small as the GM wants, and either implemented now or in the not too distant future.  Ask the player who stimulated the card(s) what he has in mind in order to take some of the creative pressure off you.  Maybe come up with 2 or 3 ideas for each card before the game to prepare?

Seriously, Cha'alt X-Cards isn't like asking a studio audience to give you a type of animal, cheese, and European philosopher... now, you have to suddenly craft an encounter around those suggestions.  What I'm offering is super easy compared to that.  These are improv baby steps.  So yeah, give it a try because I believe you (and other GMs like you) can do it.  I believe in you, hoss! 

Venger, the "baby steps" and "believe in you" sounds condescending to me.

I'm decent at improv, but I often want my RPGs to *not* be like improv. In the past, I've tried a bit of Whimsy Cards and Storypath Cards - which work similar to how you're describing. I'm not sure if you're familiar with them. Whimsy Cards come from Ars Magica, and Storypath cards were a later development.

https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/classic/rev_800.phtml

While I've enjoyed the games with these, I've mostly moved on after having tried them. Generally, I try to give the players *in-character* power over the direction of the game, by information and resources.

Also, I'm curious what your experience with the Stavropoulos X-Card. Have you tried it? I played with it in about a dozen or so convention games, but I've only GMed with it only in the case of "Bluebeard's Bride", since there it's written into the rules. Bluebeard's Bride has a lot of horror verging on sexual violence, and those have been some of the most boundary-pushing games I've ever run. I could picture someone using both the Stavropoulos X-Card and your X-cards in the same game, but I'd probably want to change the names to differentiate.

As to the condescension... maybe, but this guy is like "No, I can't."  And I'm all "Yes, you can."  I slipped into Dad-mode.  Constantly being around 5 kids, that happens to be a lot.

Certain RPGs I also don't want much improv.  But one of the things I like about weird fantasy "D&D" is that ideas are everywhere and I can play fast and loose with the rules, setting, encounters, or whatever.  In that milieu, I like improv.

I've heard of and seen stuff like storycards, but don't have any direct experience.  I will check out that link.  If you have any red-hot links to play reports where they're used, I'd read those, too.  To be honest, I can barely stand the leftism in the OSR.  Just imagining myself wading into storygaming territory fills me with a nameless dread.  Maybe I'll lurk in the shadows with a vomit-bag at the ready...

Besides hearing of them used, I have no experience with ordinary x-card safety tools.

I think this is where the rift is.  My primary game is a Traveller derivative and I really like keeping a very tight game.  I love to throw in new, different, and strange things, but keeping the foundations of the game and the setting anchored is a major game aspect of making aberrations work.  Knowing and understanding things they've already seen lets PC leverage the setting to effect the current scenario.  Making the setting itself flexible to player makes it less stable and less an experience that can be trusted.   In my humble opinion, one of the cornerstones of a great RPG is that the GM and players trust each other.  My part as a GM in the trust is that my setting is harder than concrete so that the players can explore the unknown using the known as a reference point.

I will admit, I do project my view on how tight a game should be run onto the world around me. 

Using these cards would seem to me to be going into Salvador Dali territory by making the player the anchor rather than the setting.  I think this would work well with something like Toon or maybe if you were doing a psychedelic trip adventure for something like Legion.

Quote from: VengerSatanis
More limited than something like Crimson Escalation, sure.  And if you prefer a "tight game," I see your point.  I prefer a looser game, so the potential chaos is something I want.   For those on the fence, I'd say try them for a single session and see how it goes.  If you don't like it, get rid of them.

You have my full support on this.  Every table should find out what works best for them and their version of RPG fun. 

I like your books and I like your publisher.  I want to keep seeing the stuff your team keeps putting out.  I think this particular item isn't for me but that's an individual critique of a single product.

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 10, 2023, 05:31:36 PM
what if you were able to separate you-as-the-PC from you-as-the-player?  That way you could immerse yourself in the world as it is, living in it through your character, but also immerse yourself in the world and story as a player sitting around the table.

I dunno, "double immersion" sounds like an oxymoron to me. If you're divided between two personas, is that really "immersion"?

Quote from: Zalman on November 11, 2023, 05:27:42 AM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 10, 2023, 05:31:36 PM
what if you were able to separate you-as-the-PC from you-as-the-player?  That way you could immerse yourself in the world as it is, living in it through your character, but also immerse yourself in the world and story as a player sitting around the table.

I dunno, "double immersion" sounds like an oxymoron to me. If you're divided between two personas, is that really "immersion"?

A more important (but still related) question, if you're immersed in whatever's going on around you but not also your own self, are you even conscious?

Quote from: BadApple on November 10, 2023, 06:12:41 PM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 10, 2023, 05:15:20 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2023, 07:58:30 PM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 08, 2023, 09:15:55 AM
Well, before throwing up your hands... or tentacles and giving up, I'd say just give it a try.  Cha'alt X-Cards, for all their similarity to amateur improv theater, has specific parameters that make it easier to use.  For instance, the card designations throw Cha'altian tropes at you that GMs should already be employing.  The detail can be as big or small as the GM wants, and either implemented now or in the not too distant future.  Ask the player who stimulated the card(s) what he has in mind in order to take some of the creative pressure off you.  Maybe come up with 2 or 3 ideas for each card before the game to prepare?

Seriously, Cha'alt X-Cards isn't like asking a studio audience to give you a type of animal, cheese, and European philosopher... now, you have to suddenly craft an encounter around those suggestions.  What I'm offering is super easy compared to that.  These are improv baby steps.  So yeah, give it a try because I believe you (and other GMs like you) can do it.  I believe in you, hoss! 

Venger, the "baby steps" and "believe in you" sounds condescending to me.

I'm decent at improv, but I often want my RPGs to *not* be like improv. In the past, I've tried a bit of Whimsy Cards and Storypath Cards - which work similar to how you're describing. I'm not sure if you're familiar with them. Whimsy Cards come from Ars Magica, and Storypath cards were a later development.

https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/classic/rev_800.phtml

While I've enjoyed the games with these, I've mostly moved on after having tried them. Generally, I try to give the players *in-character* power over the direction of the game, by information and resources.

Also, I'm curious what your experience with the Stavropoulos X-Card. Have you tried it? I played with it in about a dozen or so convention games, but I've only GMed with it only in the case of "Bluebeard's Bride", since there it's written into the rules. Bluebeard's Bride has a lot of horror verging on sexual violence, and those have been some of the most boundary-pushing games I've ever run. I could picture someone using both the Stavropoulos X-Card and your X-cards in the same game, but I'd probably want to change the names to differentiate.

As to the condescension... maybe, but this guy is like "No, I can't."  And I'm all "Yes, you can."  I slipped into Dad-mode.  Constantly being around 5 kids, that happens to be a lot.

Certain RPGs I also don't want much improv.  But one of the things I like about weird fantasy "D&D" is that ideas are everywhere and I can play fast and loose with the rules, setting, encounters, or whatever.  In that milieu, I like improv.

I've heard of and seen stuff like storycards, but don't have any direct experience.  I will check out that link.  If you have any red-hot links to play reports where they're used, I'd read those, too.  To be honest, I can barely stand the leftism in the OSR.  Just imagining myself wading into storygaming territory fills me with a nameless dread.  Maybe I'll lurk in the shadows with a vomit-bag at the ready...

Besides hearing of them used, I have no experience with ordinary x-card safety tools.

I think this is where the rift is.  My primary game is a Traveller derivative and I really like keeping a very tight game.  I love to throw in new, different, and strange things, but keeping the foundations of the game and the setting anchored is a major game aspect of making aberrations work.  Knowing and understanding things they've already seen lets PC leverage the setting to effect the current scenario.  Making the setting itself flexible to player makes it less stable and less an experience that can be trusted.   In my humble opinion, one of the cornerstones of a great RPG is that the GM and players trust each other.  My part as a GM in the trust is that my setting is harder than concrete so that the players can explore the unknown using the known as a reference point.

I will admit, I do project my view on how tight a game should be run onto the world around me. 

Using these cards would seem to me to be going into Salvador Dali territory by making the player the anchor rather than the setting.  I think this would work well with something like Toon or maybe if you were doing a psychedelic trip adventure for something like Legion.

Quote from: VengerSatanis
More limited than something like Crimson Escalation, sure.  And if you prefer a "tight game," I see your point.  I prefer a looser game, so the potential chaos is something I want.   For those on the fence, I'd say try them for a single session and see how it goes.  If you don't like it, get rid of them.

You have my full support on this.  Every table should find out what works best for them and their version of RPG fun. 

I like your books and I like your publisher.  I want to keep seeing the stuff your team keeps putting out.  I think this particular item isn't for me but that's an individual critique of a single product.

Yes, I agree.  If you're running something like Traveller or Call of Cthulhu, improv elements would probably mess your game up.  Save Cha'alt X-Cards for when you're playing something that demands a looser style.

Anybody who's seen me GM:  "You're more like a gameshow host."

Me:  "Thank you."

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2023, 05:44:30 PM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 10, 2023, 05:15:20 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2023, 07:58:30 PM
In the past, I've tried a bit of Whimsy Cards and Storypath Cards - which work similar to how you're describing. I'm not sure if you're familiar with them. Whimsy Cards come from Ars Magica, and Storypath cards were a later development.

https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/classic/rev_800.phtml

While I've enjoyed the games with these, I've mostly moved on after having tried them. Generally, I try to give the players *in-character* power over the direction of the game, by information and resources.

I've heard of and seen stuff like storycards, but don't have any direct experience.  I will check out that link.  If you have any red-hot links to play reports where they're used, I'd read those, too.  To be honest, I can barely stand the leftism in the OSR.  Just imagining myself wading into storygaming territory fills me with a nameless dread.  Maybe I'll lurk in the shadows with a vomit-bag at the ready...

Whimsy Cards were a part of first edition Ars Magica, which came out in 1987 - which is long before the more recent trend of storygaming. I don't know if Ars Magica would be vomit-territory for you, but I don't feel it was considered leftist at the time. Here are some links about the original.

https://www.redcap.org/page/Whimsy_Cards

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/systemdesign/cards/whimsycards.html

There were several variations that appeared in the 1990s, like Storypath cards that I linked earlier.

As I said, I'm not particularly advocating for them. I haven't used them in a long time. But I think those who are into "old school" should have some idea of the range of RPGs in the 1980s. Looking over my notes, I was reminded that I did use a variant of them at points in my early 2000s "Vikings & Skraelings" campaign. I think that was the last time I used them, though.

Really cool.  I wasn't aware of those things.  I believe I still have an old Ars Magica rulebook somewhere, but I never ran it nor played.  Whimsy and Storypath cards have a similar feel to Cha'alt X-Cards, and seemed to work well for those who used them.  Same objective (make the story better), and I hope Cha'alt X-Cards are easier for GMs to use.

Update!  I hopped-on the Legion of Myth 24-hour charity stream that's raising money for the Wounded Warrior Project.  I ran a short 20-minute demo for Max and we got through 4 or 5 of my cards to show people how they can be used, or how I use them in a game.  The mini-session went well.  The stream is still ongoing, but I'll post a link here.  Not sure where my segment will show up when the show has been archived.  I'll come back and do a time-stamp...

[Just looked this morning, I was interrupted writing this post when one of my gamer friends came over an hour earlier than expected.  Anyway, the 24-hour stream is still buffering (I hope), and can't be watched right now.  Tentacles crossed that it's watchable soon and the world can watch this Cha'alt X-Card demonstration.]

Far Right X-Card (it's a swastika)

There's absolutely nothing related to the 1944 German Government in Venger's cards.   

Quote from: bendis on November 12, 2023, 12:31:49 PM
Far Right X-Card (it's a swastika)

Ugh... Could we not?

Quote from: Colin Conn on November 13, 2023, 10:02:33 AM

Quote from: bendis on November 12, 2023, 12:31:49 PM
Far Right X-Card (it's a swastika)

Ugh... Could we not?

I use the liberal X card.
Don't you dare say no to me.

Quote from: bendis on November 13, 2023, 01:01:20 PM

Quote from: Colin Conn on November 13, 2023, 10:02:33 AM

Quote from: bendis on November 12, 2023, 12:31:49 PM
Far Right X-Card (it's a swastika)

Ugh... Could we not?

I use the liberal X card.
Don't you dare say no to me.

*taps X card*

Now make a new post. And quick. Dance, monkey, dance!

Ok, here it is.  It's currently set to "unlisted" on the Legion of Myth channel, but this is a direct link:  https://youtu.be/auK_C0RX93Y?si=Z_wQbBXraEA3QJZD

On that stream we talk about Cha'alt X-Cards and then I proceed to run a 20+ minute demo session for Max.  Max spams the Cha'alt X-Cards at rapid fire to show the audience what it's all about, keeping me on my tentacles.  You can also see a GM (me, still) run a rules-light, fiction-first combat with just a few d6 rolls to guide play.

/taps two blue
/plays Counterspell

I haven't played Magic since the end of Empires. Refreshing.

Only for infantile babies safety tools are for.

[Replaces X card with 'Seek professional help' card]  I think I have fixed it.   

Quote from: RebelSky on November 15, 2023, 10:28:38 AM
Only for infantile babies safety tools are for.

Remedial English Yoda, is that you?