Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 04, 2023, 08:51:15 PM
All safety tools are garbage.

^^THIS^^

Quote from: Opaopajr on November 06, 2023, 01:23:47 PM
Only if it offers free chips & soda (or for more mature games: hookers & blow).  And maybe a health conscious alternative: red yeast covered kale chips & diet blow. 

Wait. Does this mean that red yeast covered kale chips are equivalent to vegan hookers?

Quote from: Fheredin on November 05, 2023, 01:13:30 PM
I think this is mostly you being a bit deliberately obtuse because describing these game mechanics as "safety tools" is...really bad terminology.

You're the one who called it that, not me, so I really don't understand WTF this really means, honestly.

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 06, 2023, 09:54:36 AM

Quote from: BadApple on November 04, 2023, 10:46:37 AM
All of this makes me think it's a joke that's gone too far.  It's funny and it would be excellent to do a live stream with them to ridicule leftists but there's no serious game play value here.

I bet you also believe "there's no serious game play value" with rules-light systems or gonzo settings, either.

I'm not the biggest fan of a lot of "rules lite" systems on the whole because so many of them are either just poor game design outright, don't cover a lot of things that should be detailed forcing the GM to homebrew to run it, or they don't give a solid basis for PC development over a longer campaign.  However, I think there are some standout examples.  I recently reviewed Black Star and found it a solid game. 

As far as Gonzo settings go, I'm a fan of Rifts.  I like Cha'alt as well and have some of the books.

As a GM and as a GM that works with other GMs, I find that on-the-fly improv world building and encounter creation is a fairly difficult thing to do for most people.  I do a lot of notes, a lot of NPC creation, and a lot of encounter mapping before starting a campaign.  I try to make them all flexible so I can move stuff around behind the screen but I really have to work hard to keep the world coherent for my players.

Your cards are very much like the improv class tools that are used in acting classes one can take at a community college or theater workshops.  In my experience, these exercises devolve into drivel that are either so silly that everyone looses composure or are so cringe it hurts to think about months later. 

If you have that magic skill where you can spin yarns on the fly and keep it a coherent and meaningful for running a game, that's awesome.  I can't and I have never met a GM that could.  To most of us, these cards are a surefire way to wreck a game.  For GMs and player that can make meaningful use of your cards, I'm jealous.

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 06, 2023, 01:39:12 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on November 06, 2023, 01:23:47 PM
Only if it offers free chips & soda (or for more mature games: hookers & blow).  And maybe a health conscious alternative: red yeast covered kale chips & diet blow. 

Wait. Does this mean that red yeast covered kale chips are equivalent to vegan hookers?

The yeast tastes cheesy and if you overindulge the kale leaves you gassy. So, yes, vegan hookers. And diet blow is like warmed too long decaf.

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 06, 2023, 12:09:30 PM

Quote from: Tod13 on November 06, 2023, 11:05:50 AM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 06, 2023, 09:47:58 AM

Quote from: Tod13 on November 03, 2023, 06:11:10 PM
First, I admire the people who have RPGPundit do reviews when they know he won't like their product. Kudos Venger (and others).

Second, I like the review and how well RPGPundit tied the Cha'alt cards with storygaming vs GM agency.

Thank you [BTW, I just realized late last night that Pundit probably had a thread up about this on his forum, but I was too tired by then and went to bed].

Pundit did a pretty good job of tying the Cha'alt X-Cards to Cha'alt, and he's right about this tool being a step in the storygaming direction.  However, I strongly disagree that it negates, circumvents, or even hinders GM agency.  The GM still has full control, and he should not be frightened by allowing his players to have a modicum of power.

Here they are, if you want to check them out (also available at the Red Room, if you don't like DTRPG):  https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/458143/Chaalt-XCards

Actually, we (my wife and I) don't like the idea as players. For us, playing within the limits of "reality" as defined by the GM is part of what we really like in RPGs. Plus, doing the reality control thing is too much like work, in one form or another. LOL If we liked something or want more of something, that's part of the post-game feedback for the GM.

And that's fine for you guys (and most gamers, probably), but I like something different. 

RPGs are an amazing gift of freedom and creativity.  For me personally, it seems a shame for the GM alone to have all the fun (when it comes to worldbuilding and storycrafting).  Cha'alt X-Cards merely boost a particular trope at a particular time in the session... stuff that's already part of the game (eldritch, gonzo, science-fantasy, post-apocalypse, humor, sleaze, pop-culture, and grindhouse exploitation).  Think of it as a way to inspire the GM. 

Just because a set of cards is sitting in the middle of the table, doesn't mean you have to stimulate one of them.  Maybe the guy sitting across from you has a great idea he wants to share?  This is his opportunity to shine!

I could see GMs that like it. I always wonder if we like Monster of the Week because of the particular GM we have and because we play it with our long-term Traveller group. (It's one of the one-shots we do when people are out.) This made me think of MotW, because on paper it doesn't look like we'd like it.

Quote from: BadApple on November 06, 2023, 01:54:40 PM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 06, 2023, 09:54:36 AM

Quote from: BadApple on November 04, 2023, 10:46:37 AM
All of this makes me think it's a joke that's gone too far.  It's funny and it would be excellent to do a live stream with them to ridicule leftists but there's no serious game play value here.

I bet you also believe "there's no serious game play value" with rules-light systems or gonzo settings, either.

I'm not the biggest fan of a lot of "rules lite" systems on the whole because so many of them are either just poor game design outright, don't cover a lot of things that should be detailed forcing the GM to homebrew to run it, or they don't give a solid basis for PC development over a longer campaign.  However, I think there are some standout examples.  I recently reviewed Black Star and found it a solid game. 

As far as Gonzo settings go, I'm a fan of Rifts.  I like Cha'alt as well and have some of the books.

As a GM and as a GM that works with other GMs, I find that on-the-fly improv world building and encounter creation is a fairly difficult thing to do for most people.  I do a lot of notes, a lot of NPC creation, and a lot of encounter mapping before starting a campaign.  I try to make them all flexible so I can move stuff around behind the screen but I really have to work hard to keep the world coherent for my players.

Your cards are very much like the improv class tools that are used in acting classes one can take at a community college or theater workshops.  In my experience, these exercises devolve into drivel that are either so silly that everyone looses composure or are so cringe it hurts to think about months later. 

If you have that magic skill where you can spin yarns on the fly and keep it a coherent and meaningful for running a game, that's awesome.  I can't and I have never met a GM that could.  To most of us, these cards are a surefire way to wreck a game.  For GMs and player that can make meaningful use of your cards, I'm jealous.

Well, before throwing up your hands... or tentacles and giving up, I'd say just give it a try.  Cha'alt X-Cards, for all their similarity to amateur improv theater, has specific parameters that make it easier to use.  For instance, the card designations throw Cha'altian tropes at you that GMs should already be employing.  The detail can be as big or small as the GM wants, and either implemented now or in the not too distant future.  Ask the player who stimulated the card(s) what he has in mind in order to take some of the creative pressure off you.  Maybe come up with 2 or 3 ideas for each card before the game to prepare?

Seriously, Cha'alt X-Cards isn't like asking a studio audience to give you a type of animal, cheese, and European philosopher... now, you have to suddenly craft an encounter around those suggestions.  What I'm offering is super easy compared to that.  These are improv baby steps.  So yeah, give it a try because I believe you (and other GMs like you) can do it.  I believe in you, hoss! 

The biggest take away for me is that Venger's cards ADD to a game rather than take away from it.

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 08, 2023, 09:15:55 AM
Well, before throwing up your hands... or tentacles and giving up, I'd say just give it a try.  Cha'alt X-Cards, for all their similarity to amateur improv theater, has specific parameters that make it easier to use.  For instance, the card designations throw Cha'altian tropes at you that GMs should already be employing.  The detail can be as big or small as the GM wants, and either implemented now or in the not too distant future.  Ask the player who stimulated the card(s) what he has in mind in order to take some of the creative pressure off you.  Maybe come up with 2 or 3 ideas for each card before the game to prepare?

Seriously, Cha'alt X-Cards isn't like asking a studio audience to give you a type of animal, cheese, and European philosopher... now, you have to suddenly craft an encounter around those suggestions.  What I'm offering is super easy compared to that.  These are improv baby steps.  So yeah, give it a try because I believe you (and other GMs like you) can do it.  I believe in you, hoss! 

Venger, the "baby steps" and "believe in you" sounds condescending to me.

I'm decent at improv, but I often want my RPGs to *not* be like improv. In the past, I've tried a bit of Whimsy Cards and Storypath Cards - which work similar to how you're describing. I'm not sure if you're familiar with them. Whimsy Cards come from Ars Magica, and Storypath cards were a later development.

https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/classic/rev_800.phtml

While I've enjoyed the games with these, I've mostly moved on after having tried them. Generally, I try to give the players *in-character* power over the direction of the game, by information and resources.

Also, I'm curious what your experience with the Stavropoulos X-Card. Have you tried it? I played with it in about a dozen or so convention games, but I've only GMed with it only in the case of "Bluebeard's Bride", since there it's written into the rules. Bluebeard's Bride has a lot of horror verging on sexual violence, and those have been some of the most boundary-pushing games I've ever run. I could picture someone using both the Stavropoulos X-Card and your X-cards in the same game, but I'd probably want to change the names to differentiate.

Quote from: BadApple on November 06, 2023, 01:54:40 PM
I'm not the biggest fan of a lot of "rules lite" systems on the whole because so many of them are either just poor game design outright, don't cover a lot of things that should be detailed forcing the GM to homebrew to run it, or they don't give a solid basis for PC development over a longer campaign.

I used to love me the heck out of Amber DRPG back in the day, but after the novelty wore off it was pretty much for this reason: I, as the GM, had to decide on everything. It's one of the primary reasons that I went to a crunchy-as-heck system that you could layer on the complexity as required. It got so bad towards the end of playing Amber DRPG that I couldn't figure out whether I was pulling genius solutions and narratives from a muse, or whether I was just pulling stuff from my arse. It all ended up smelling the same, so I presume that I was burnt out and it was more the latter.

The one thing that I will say about "safety tools" is that they appear to be trying to emulate this thing called "talking things out like an adult", whether that is in Session 0 or Session 15 where things are taking a direction that you don't like.

Hello,

I play in Venger's semi-weekly Cha'alt game that helped playtest these cards. They work best as a meta-currency reward loop to hit a game's core themes and activities if you know how to negotiate the setting with the game master. I'm not sure I would have marketed them the way Venger did, as they're wildly different from the X-Card rules, eye-rollingly stapled into tabletop games these days, but it's also not my product.

I do stand by how they work, which is quite well. Sometimes, you need a good player to show other players what you can do with them, and everyone starts to get into it. The next time we fire up Cha'alt, I will try combining two or more cards.

Quote from: Colin Conn on November 10, 2023, 04:34:34 PM
Hello,

I played Venger's semi-weekly Cha'alt game that helped playtest these cards. They work best as a meta-currency reward loop to hit a game's core themes and activities if you know how to negotiate the setting with the game master. I'm not sure I would have marketed them the way Venger did, as they're wildly different from the X-Card rules, eye-rollingly stapled into tabletop games these days, but it's also not my product.

I downloaded the cards and looked them over and read the accompanying instructions.  Your description sounds a bit more solid than how I understood them initially.  I still don't think they are right for many tables, including mine, but I don't think there's a wrong way to have fun.

As a player, I don't want to have any meta influence on the setting.  I want the GM to have a solid world that I can experience through my PC.  Where these cards get me is me trying to figure out how my PC could make the world around him shape shift so that more weird things happen or that women are more likely to take their clothes off.  It breaks the game for me.

As I've mentioned before, as a GM I do the best I can to make a world where all the pieces fit together properly and that in turn creates a tight game for my table.  Giving the players meta powers over the setting would break things I would have to smooth out and I don't think I ca do that effectively on the fly.

I think anyone who's looking at any new mechanic should keep it in mind that you should consider the full extent of the change it would make before committing.  These cards can add a lot of chaos the GM needs to manage.  Therefore, I think the audience for these is limited.

Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2023, 07:58:30 PM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 08, 2023, 09:15:55 AM
Well, before throwing up your hands... or tentacles and giving up, I'd say just give it a try.  Cha'alt X-Cards, for all their similarity to amateur improv theater, has specific parameters that make it easier to use.  For instance, the card designations throw Cha'altian tropes at you that GMs should already be employing.  The detail can be as big or small as the GM wants, and either implemented now or in the not too distant future.  Ask the player who stimulated the card(s) what he has in mind in order to take some of the creative pressure off you.  Maybe come up with 2 or 3 ideas for each card before the game to prepare?

Seriously, Cha'alt X-Cards isn't like asking a studio audience to give you a type of animal, cheese, and European philosopher... now, you have to suddenly craft an encounter around those suggestions.  What I'm offering is super easy compared to that.  These are improv baby steps.  So yeah, give it a try because I believe you (and other GMs like you) can do it.  I believe in you, hoss! 

Venger, the "baby steps" and "believe in you" sounds condescending to me.

I'm decent at improv, but I often want my RPGs to *not* be like improv. In the past, I've tried a bit of Whimsy Cards and Storypath Cards - which work similar to how you're describing. I'm not sure if you're familiar with them. Whimsy Cards come from Ars Magica, and Storypath cards were a later development.

https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/classic/rev_800.phtml

While I've enjoyed the games with these, I've mostly moved on after having tried them. Generally, I try to give the players *in-character* power over the direction of the game, by information and resources.

Also, I'm curious what your experience with the Stavropoulos X-Card. Have you tried it? I played with it in about a dozen or so convention games, but I've only GMed with it only in the case of "Bluebeard's Bride", since there it's written into the rules. Bluebeard's Bride has a lot of horror verging on sexual violence, and those have been some of the most boundary-pushing games I've ever run. I could picture someone using both the Stavropoulos X-Card and your X-cards in the same game, but I'd probably want to change the names to differentiate.

As to the condescension... maybe, but this guy is like "No, I can't."  And I'm all "Yes, you can."  I slipped into Dad-mode.  Constantly being around 5 kids, that happens to be a lot.

Certain RPGs I also don't want much improv.  But one of the things I like about weird fantasy "D&D" is that ideas are everywhere and I can play fast and loose with the rules, setting, encounters, or whatever.  In that milieu, I like improv.

I've heard of and seen stuff like storycards, but don't have any direct experience.  I will check out that link.  If you have any red-hot links to play reports where they're used, I'd read those, too.  To be honest, I can barely stand the leftism in the OSR.  Just imagining myself wading into storygaming territory fills me with a nameless dread.  Maybe I'll lurk in the shadows with a vomit-bag at the ready...

Besides hearing of them used, I have no experience with ordinary x-card safety tools.

Quote from: BadApple on November 10, 2023, 05:09:59 PM

Quote from: Colin Conn on November 10, 2023, 04:34:34 PM
Hello,

I played Venger's semi-weekly Cha'alt game that helped playtest these cards. They work best as a meta-currency reward loop to hit a game's core themes and activities if you know how to negotiate the setting with the game master. I'm not sure I would have marketed them the way Venger did, as they're wildly different from the X-Card rules, eye-rollingly stapled into tabletop games these days, but it's also not my product.

I downloaded the cards and looked them over and read the accompanying instructions.  Your description sounds a bit more solid than how I understood them initially.  I still don't think they are right for many tables, including mine, but I don't think there's a wrong way to have fun.

As a player, I don't want to have any meta influence on the setting.  I want the GM to have a solid world that I can experience through my PC.  Where these cards get me is me trying to figure out how my PC could make the world around him shape shift so that more weird things happen or that women are more likely to take their clothes off.  It breaks the game for me. 

I do know what you mean, but what if you were able to separate you-as-the-PC from you-as-the-player?  That way you could immerse yourself in the world as it is, living in it through your character, but also immerse yourself in the world and story as a player sitting around the table.  With both roles, you're doing the exact same thing (cooperatively creating an awesome fantasy experience, like a movie, TV show, comic-book, or novel, but one that's not scripted out ahead of time), which is what makes it easier to do.  Now, if you had different goals, that would present a problem.

Cha'alt X-Cards also have a built-in measure to protect the table from going full-blown storygame.  The player doesn't directly affect anything.  It's all indirect because stimulating a Cha'alt card signals the GM your suggestion, your desire to influence the game with a little more of this trope over here.  The GM who is still in full control of the game and what goes in it.

Quote from: BadApple on November 10, 2023, 05:09:59 PM
As I've mentioned before, as a GM I do the best I can to make a world where all the pieces fit together properly and that in turn creates a tight game for my table.  Giving the players meta powers over the setting would break things I would have to smooth out and I don't think I ca do that effectively on the fly.

I think anyone who's looking at any new mechanic should keep it in mind that you should consider the full extent of the change it would make before committing.  These cards can add a lot of chaos the GM needs to manage.  Therefore, I think the audience for these is limited.

More limited than something like Crimson Escalation, sure.  And if you prefer a "tight game," I see your point.  I prefer a looser game, so the potential chaos is something I want.   For those on the fence, I'd say try them for a single session and see how it goes.  If you don't like it, get rid of them. 

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 10, 2023, 05:15:20 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 09, 2023, 07:58:30 PM
In the past, I've tried a bit of Whimsy Cards and Storypath Cards - which work similar to how you're describing. I'm not sure if you're familiar with them. Whimsy Cards come from Ars Magica, and Storypath cards were a later development.

https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/classic/rev_800.phtml

While I've enjoyed the games with these, I've mostly moved on after having tried them. Generally, I try to give the players *in-character* power over the direction of the game, by information and resources.

I've heard of and seen stuff like storycards, but don't have any direct experience.  I will check out that link.  If you have any red-hot links to play reports where they're used, I'd read those, too.  To be honest, I can barely stand the leftism in the OSR.  Just imagining myself wading into storygaming territory fills me with a nameless dread.  Maybe I'll lurk in the shadows with a vomit-bag at the ready...

Whimsy Cards were a part of first edition Ars Magica, which came out in 1987 - which is long before the more recent trend of storygaming. I don't know if Ars Magica would be vomit-territory for you, but I don't feel it was considered leftist at the time. Here are some links about the original.

https://www.redcap.org/page/Whimsy_Cards

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/systemdesign/cards/whimsycards.html

There were several variations that appeared in the 1990s, like Storypath cards that I linked earlier.

As I said, I'm not particularly advocating for them. I haven't used them in a long time. But I think those who are into "old school" should have some idea of the range of RPGs in the 1980s. Looking over my notes, I was reminded that I did use a variant of them at points in my early 2000s "Vikings & Skraelings" campaign. I think that was the last time I used them, though.