Quote from: Fheredin on November 05, 2023, 09:42:47 AMGood safety tools don't get in the way

This is a roleplaying game we're talking about, right? One that uses paper and pencils? What sort of "safety tool" exists for an RPG? I can understand a "safety tool" for football...helmets, pads, etc. because you can get really fucked up without them. But an RPG?

Yeah, okay.

Safety tools, both the "consent in gaming" contract and the X card, are things from the BDSM community.  Venger's cards are essentially a way to say "spank me harder, daddy."

Quote from: Brad on November 05, 2023, 10:58:17 AM

Quote from: Fheredin on November 05, 2023, 09:42:47 AMGood safety tools don't get in the way

This is a roleplaying game we're talking about, right? One that uses paper and pencils? What sort of "safety tool" exists for an RPG? I can understand a "safety tool" for football...helmets, pads, etc. because you can get really fucked up without them. But an RPG?

Yeah, okay.

I think this is mostly you being a bit deliberately obtuse because describing these game mechanics as "safety tools" is...really bad terminology. However, that's what the majority of the industry has settled on. No, I'm not happy about that, either, but it isn't the worst thing in the universe.

If I had my 'druthers, I'd describe these things as Metamechanics, but none of these people asked my opinions.

Quote from: Brad on November 05, 2023, 10:58:17 AM

Quote from: Fheredin on November 05, 2023, 09:42:47 AMGood safety tools don't get in the way

This is a roleplaying game we're talking about, right? One that uses paper and pencils? What sort of "safety tool" exists for an RPG? I can understand a "safety tool" for football...helmets, pads, etc. because you can get really fucked up without them. But an RPG?

Yeah, okay.

There are some very special cases where even simply talking about some imaginary event can flare up an existing condition.....but as I said, they're special cases. I'm not against the concept that in these cases you need safety tools, what I object to is the idea that these cases are not rare but so widespread that every game, every table and every DM has to adopt "safety tools" otherwise they're not "inclusive" because they're not prepared to handle these one-in-a-million events.
I play for fun, sitting at the table every time like we're going to play a round of russian roulette is everything but fun.

Quote from: NotFromAroundHere on November 06, 2023, 02:04:47 AM

Quote from: Brad on November 05, 2023, 10:58:17 AM

Quote from: Fheredin on November 05, 2023, 09:42:47 AMGood safety tools don't get in the way

This is a roleplaying game we're talking about, right? One that uses paper and pencils? What sort of "safety tool" exists for an RPG? I can understand a "safety tool" for football...helmets, pads, etc. because you can get really fucked up without them. But an RPG?

Yeah, okay.

There are some very special cases where even simply talking about some imaginary event can flare up an existing condition.....but as I said, they're special cases. I'm not against the concept that in these cases you need safety tools, what I object to is the idea that these cases are not rare but so widespread that every game, every table and every DM has to adopt "safety tools" otherwise they're not "inclusive" because they're not prepared to handle these one-in-a-million events.
I play for fun, sitting at the table every time like we're going to play a round of russian roulette is everything but fun.

Anyone participating in a tabletop rpg that tries to compare ANYTHING that might be said or described to a literal gun to their head has no business participating in rpgs.

Quote from: Tod13 on November 03, 2023, 06:11:10 PM
First, I admire the people who have RPGPundit do reviews when they know he won't like their product. Kudos Venger (and others).

Second, I like the review and how well RPGPundit tied the Cha'alt cards with storygaming vs GM agency.

Thank you [BTW, I just realized late last night that Pundit probably had a thread up about this on his forum, but I was too tired by then and went to bed].

Pundit did a pretty good job of tying the Cha'alt X-Cards to Cha'alt, and he's right about this tool being a step in the storygaming direction.  However, I strongly disagree that it negates, circumvents, or even hinders GM agency.  The GM still has full control, and he should not be frightened by allowing his players to have a modicum of power.

Here they are, if you want to check them out (also available at the Red Room, if you don't like DTRPG):  https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/458143/Chaalt-XCards

Quote from: Brigman on November 03, 2023, 10:31:02 PM
Well Venger's cards are at least funny...

I was going for "fucking awesome," but I'll take funny... for now.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on November 04, 2023, 10:08:07 AM
These cards are kind of pointless. If the players don't like the direction the game is going in then they can simply have a talk with the GM and express their concerns. Of course much of this can be eliminated at session 0 if the GM explains what the campaign will be about and what kinds of things the players may experience.

If some guy brought his set of Cha'alt X-Cards to some random game that wasn't expecting it [I confess, that scenario didn't cross my mind], then yeah... that could be awkward.  Cha'alt X-Cards were made for gaming groups who are all on the same page and like that sort of thing.  So, same direction... just occasionally asking for more gonzo or eldritchness, etc.

There's absolutely a method to the madness; it's only a question of "does this madness suit you, hoss?"

Quote from: BadApple on November 04, 2023, 10:46:37 AM
All of this makes me think it's a joke that's gone too far.  It's funny and it would be excellent to do a live stream with them to ridicule leftists but there's no serious game play value here.

I bet you also believe "there's no serious game play value" with rules-light systems or gonzo settings, either.

Quote from: Fheredin on November 05, 2023, 09:42:47 AM
As usual the problem is that Pundit is more interested in not giving his rivals an inch than he is in being correct.

First, the problem with classic story-gaming a la the early 2000s was not that it's inherently a bad idea, but that these story gamers were already aiming towards equity crap in their game design. With very few exceptions, players in these games were all juggling all the GM hats with no specialization of talent, which in turn meant the "story game participation" was incurably average, not better than dice rolls, and certainly not worth the extra hassle. However, if the GM identifies players with unique styles or gifts and delegating things to them to leverage those things, the value proposition radically changes and "story games" start way out-performing classic OSR-RNG gameplay.

The SJWs and their precursors do not recognize individual player talents particularly well if at all because the SJWs in particular view things through the lens of groups and collectives, not individuals. This philosophical flaw holds their game designs back.

I have said it elsewhere; I don't think that safety tools are bad, but that the X-Card was more a rough draft safety tool that people latched onto for simplicity. Good safety tools don't get in the way, and the X-Card is practically all about getting in the way. And again, because SJWs doing the RPG convention circuit love outrage-bait, they will actively resist removing the X-Card, which again leads to a philosophical flaw holding their game design back.

It's like that's a repeating pattern....

This comment is so good I want to do bad things to it under the game table... really bad things.

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 06, 2023, 09:53:34 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on November 04, 2023, 10:08:07 AM
These cards are kind of pointless. If the players don't like the direction the game is going in then they can simply have a talk with the GM and express their concerns. Of course much of this can be eliminated at session 0 if the GM explains what the campaign will be about and what kinds of things the players may experience.

If some guy brought his set of Cha'alt X-Cards to some random game that wasn't expecting it [I confess, that scenario didn't cross my mind], then yeah... that could be awkward.  Cha'alt X-Cards were made for gaming groups who are all on the same page and like that sort of thing.  So, same direction... just occasionally asking for more gonzo or eldritchness, etc.

There's absolutely a method to the madness; it's only a question of "does this madness suit you, hoss?"

For certain games,such as TOON, I think it would be hilarious and actually fitting to the atmosphere.

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 06, 2023, 09:47:58 AM

Quote from: Tod13 on November 03, 2023, 06:11:10 PM
First, I admire the people who have RPGPundit do reviews when they know he won't like their product. Kudos Venger (and others).

Second, I like the review and how well RPGPundit tied the Cha'alt cards with storygaming vs GM agency.

Thank you [BTW, I just realized late last night that Pundit probably had a thread up about this on his forum, but I was too tired by then and went to bed].

Pundit did a pretty good job of tying the Cha'alt X-Cards to Cha'alt, and he's right about this tool being a step in the storygaming direction.  However, I strongly disagree that it negates, circumvents, or even hinders GM agency.  The GM still has full control, and he should not be frightened by allowing his players to have a modicum of power.

Here they are, if you want to check them out (also available at the Red Room, if you don't like DTRPG):  https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/458143/Chaalt-XCards

Actually, we (my wife and I) don't like the idea as players. For us, playing within the limits of "reality" as defined by the GM is part of what we really like in RPGs. Plus, doing the reality control thing is too much like work, in one form or another. LOL If we liked something or want more of something, that's part of the post-game feedback for the GM.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on November 06, 2023, 10:05:09 AM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 06, 2023, 09:53:34 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on November 04, 2023, 10:08:07 AM
These cards are kind of pointless. If the players don't like the direction the game is going in then they can simply have a talk with the GM and express their concerns. Of course much of this can be eliminated at session 0 if the GM explains what the campaign will be about and what kinds of things the players may experience.

If some guy brought his set of Cha'alt X-Cards to some random game that wasn't expecting it [I confess, that scenario didn't cross my mind], then yeah... that could be awkward.  Cha'alt X-Cards were made for gaming groups who are all on the same page and like that sort of thing.  So, same direction... just occasionally asking for more gonzo or eldritchness, etc.

There's absolutely a method to the madness; it's only a question of "does this madness suit you, hoss?"

For certain games,such as TOON, I think it would be hilarious and actually fitting to the atmosphere.

I love Toon!  Honestly, my Cha'alt campaign plays slightly more like Toon than something like AD&D.

Quote from: Tod13 on November 06, 2023, 11:05:50 AM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on November 06, 2023, 09:47:58 AM

Quote from: Tod13 on November 03, 2023, 06:11:10 PM
First, I admire the people who have RPGPundit do reviews when they know he won't like their product. Kudos Venger (and others).

Second, I like the review and how well RPGPundit tied the Cha'alt cards with storygaming vs GM agency.

Thank you [BTW, I just realized late last night that Pundit probably had a thread up about this on his forum, but I was too tired by then and went to bed].

Pundit did a pretty good job of tying the Cha'alt X-Cards to Cha'alt, and he's right about this tool being a step in the storygaming direction.  However, I strongly disagree that it negates, circumvents, or even hinders GM agency.  The GM still has full control, and he should not be frightened by allowing his players to have a modicum of power.

Here they are, if you want to check them out (also available at the Red Room, if you don't like DTRPG):  https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/458143/Chaalt-XCards

Actually, we (my wife and I) don't like the idea as players. For us, playing within the limits of "reality" as defined by the GM is part of what we really like in RPGs. Plus, doing the reality control thing is too much like work, in one form or another. LOL If we liked something or want more of something, that's part of the post-game feedback for the GM.

And that's fine for you guys (and most gamers, probably), but I like something different. 

RPGs are an amazing gift of freedom and creativity.  For me personally, it seems a shame for the GM alone to have all the fun (when it comes to worldbuilding and storycrafting).  Cha'alt X-Cards merely boost a particular trope at a particular time in the session... stuff that's already part of the game (eldritch, gonzo, science-fantasy, post-apocalypse, humor, sleaze, pop-culture, and grindhouse exploitation).  Think of it as a way to inspire the GM. 

Just because a set of cards is sitting in the middle of the table, doesn't mean you have to stimulate one of them.  Maybe the guy sitting across from you has a great idea he wants to share?  This is his opportunity to shine!

Only if it offers free chips & soda (or for more mature games: hookers & blow).  And maybe a health conscious alternative: red yeast covered kale chips & diet blow.