Quote from: Persimmon on March 31, 2023, 04:03:33 PM
Well, to answer the question: Yes, orcs are racist because they pretty much hate all other races and regularly make war upon them, often even taking their womenfolk to create unsavory half-breeds.  End of discussion.

Seriously?

This absolutism and anthropomorphic view doesn't sit well with me. Orcs are, as created by Tolkien, monsters derived from Elves. The hatred is not modern in tone or contextual to modern social concerns, it's part of a medieval/dark age style fantasy. Orcs despise what they are and take it out on anyone else, but given their primal and barbaric nature, would probably behave the same anyway. But their motives are not actually 'racist' because they don't see themselves as superior in racial terms. Orcs are simply 'normal' to themselves and want to survive, prosper, and pursue ambition just the same as any other fantasy race/species, just that they are 'evil' and thus behave barbarically, a sort of fantasy version of the revulsion sophisticated Romans felt toward the Germanic tribes who slaughtered three legions in the Germanian forests of ad9.

So, what's the alternative? Peace negotiations with an Orkish embassy? Cultural tourism to Ork homelands? Rights for Orkish immigrants? Bureaucratic forms that include Orkish translations so the wee beasties can fill in government forms?

If you're going to create a game that relies on modern social context why are you bothering with fantasy?

Quote from: caldrail on April 01, 2023, 03:35:32 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on March 31, 2023, 04:03:33 PM
Well, to answer the question: Yes, orcs are racist because they pretty much hate all other races and regularly make war upon them, often even taking their womenfolk to create unsavory half-breeds.  End of discussion.

Seriously?

This absolutism and anthropomorphic view doesn't sit well with me. Orcs are, as created by Tolkien, monsters derived from Elves. The hatred is not modern in tone or contextual to modern social concerns, it's part of a medieval/dark age style fantasy. Orcs despise what they are and take it out on anyone else, but given their primal and barbaric nature, would probably behave the same anyway. But their motives are not actually 'racist' because they don't see themselves as superior in racial terms. Orcs are simply 'normal' to themselves and want to survive, prosper, and pursue ambition just the same as any other fantasy race/species, just that they are 'evil' and thus behave barbarically, a sort of fantasy version of the revulsion sophisticated Romans felt toward the Germanic tribes who slaughtered three legions in the Germanian forests of ad9.

So, what's the alternative? Peace negotiations with an Orkish embassy? Cultural tourism to Ork homelands? Rights for Orkish immigrants? Bureaucratic forms that include Orkish translations so the wee beasties can fill in government forms?

If you're going to create a game that relies on modern social context why are you bothering with fantasy?

He's saying that orcs are themselves racist to other races. In-world.

Quote from: S'mon on April 01, 2023, 04:14:41 AM

Quote from: caldrail on April 01, 2023, 03:35:32 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on March 31, 2023, 04:03:33 PM
Well, to answer the question: Yes, orcs are racist because they pretty much hate all other races and regularly make war upon them, often even taking their womenfolk to create unsavory half-breeds.  End of discussion.

Seriously?

This absolutism and anthropomorphic view doesn't sit well with me. Orcs are, as created by Tolkien, monsters derived from Elves. The hatred is not modern in tone or contextual to modern social concerns, it's part of a medieval/dark age style fantasy. Orcs despise what they are and take it out on anyone else, but given their primal and barbaric nature, would probably behave the same anyway. But their motives are not actually 'racist' because they don't see themselves as superior in racial terms. Orcs are simply 'normal' to themselves and want to survive, prosper, and pursue ambition just the same as any other fantasy race/species, just that they are 'evil' and thus behave barbarically, a sort of fantasy version of the revulsion sophisticated Romans felt toward the Germanic tribes who slaughtered three legions in the Germanian forests of ad9.

So, what's the alternative? Peace negotiations with an Orkish embassy? Cultural tourism to Ork homelands? Rights for Orkish immigrants? Bureaucratic forms that include Orkish translations so the wee beasties can fill in government forms?

If you're going to create a game that relies on modern social context why are you bothering with fantasy?

He's saying that orcs are themselves racist to other races. In-world.

Yes; this was exactly my point.  Nowadays I too often feel like Charlie Brown, as no one seems to appreciate sarcasm or have the sense of humor or intelligence to step back and see the utter ridiculousness of so many rants. 

Thank you, good sir.

Quote from: S'mon on April 01, 2023, 04:14:41 AM

Quote from: caldrail on April 01, 2023, 03:35:32 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on March 31, 2023, 04:03:33 PM
Well, to answer the question: Yes, orcs are racist because they pretty much hate all other races and regularly make war upon them, often even taking their womenfolk to create unsavory half-breeds.  End of discussion.

Seriously?

This absolutism and anthropomorphic view doesn't sit well with me. Orcs are, as created by Tolkien, monsters derived from Elves. The hatred is not modern in tone or contextual to modern social concerns, it's part of a medieval/dark age style fantasy. Orcs despise what they are and take it out on anyone else, but given their primal and barbaric nature, would probably behave the same anyway. But their motives are not actually 'racist' because they don't see themselves as superior in racial terms. Orcs are simply 'normal' to themselves and want to survive, prosper, and pursue ambition just the same as any other fantasy race/species, just that they are 'evil' and thus behave barbarically, a sort of fantasy version of the revulsion sophisticated Romans felt toward the Germanic tribes who slaughtered three legions in the Germanian forests of ad9.

So, what's the alternative? Peace negotiations with an Orkish embassy? Cultural tourism to Ork homelands? Rights for Orkish immigrants? Bureaucratic forms that include Orkish translations so the wee beasties can fill in government forms?

If you're going to create a game that relies on modern social context why are you bothering with fantasy?

He's saying that orcs are themselves racist to other races. In-world.

Indeed, I think this is a case of how radicalized it's all become that people are jumping at shadows whenever the word "racism" is even uttered rather than reading the context, which in this case is that orcs in most fantasy settings are actually "orc supremacists."

Don't tell them about the orcs from the Dark Eye. They're called coal pelts.

Do you think that the racist wokesters would lay off if we said the orcs are Republicans? Warped by evil magic and support for their main bad guy. Use their own efforts to dehumanize to dismantle their racist trash.

It's been said before, but I'll say it again.  The fact that those wacko progressives think orcs are some kind of code for black people says a lot more about them than it does about us.  Not in a good way.

As someone whose second RPG ever was Star Frontiers, I'm more pissed off they absolutely shat on the Yazirians with this crap about the Hadozee. Anyone who isn't a brain dead moron could clearly tell the Yazirians were inspired by Wookies and not "muh black people". And since Hadozee were just Yazirians crossed into Spelljammer, it takes a special level of stupid not to see this fact. Even their epithet "Deck Ape" is a meta-joke since a US Navy Bosun's Mate is called a "Deck Ape".

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2023, 04:57:00 PM
Not this shit again!

You know what? We should just agree with them, let them tear apart D&D and make it as "Anti-Racist" as they want, what the fuck do I care? I'm not buying ANY WotC sludge, I'm not playing ANYTHING they ever created and I have plenty of Books/Games/Supplements for the rest of my life (but will still buy something that interests me).

I told Pundit a couple of years back (maybe more) that D&D isn't the hobby and the sooner it's destroyed the better for the hobby.

We should help the woketards to destroy it, edge them on, then -when the hobby sinks back into obscurity- we can go back to playing in peace.

So you stand by and do nothing when they come for your D&D.
Do you stand by and do nothing when they come for your OSR?
When they come for the FLGS?

Standing by and doing nothing is how we got in this damn situation.

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 31, 2023, 05:12:10 PM
We need to turn the tables on this nonsense. How about this: Orcs are racist. Tolkien was a racist. And we are all racists for not deleting orcs and canceling Tolkien.

So now what? Still here and playing games with regular people. Yawn. What should be happening now? Zzzzz.

Nah. They push for "Equal Rights Orcs!" because they push the lie that orcs were allways ONLY EVER EVILLLLLLLL!
And people beleve it because they are too weak willed to open the damn book and read that "oh hey, Orcs can be like neutral?" or "Oh hey, Any monster can be whatever. The listed alignment is just the ones you tend to meet."

But they have to push the lie that this never was.

Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2023, 09:14:22 AM

Nah. They push for "Equal Rights Orcs!" because they push the lie that orcs were allways ONLY EVER EVILLLLLLLL!
And people beleve it because they are too weak willed to open the damn book and read that "oh hey, Orcs can be like neutral?" or "Oh hey, Any monster can be whatever. The listed alignment is just the ones you tend to meet."

But they have to push the lie that this never was.

Recently got Orcs of Thar...interesting this came out in 1988. Orcs, and a lot of the other goblinoid races, are depicted as what looks like misunderstood jerks. They're literally alien compared to humans and do not think the same whatsoever. They remind me more of viking raiders than eeeeeevil monsters, honestly.

But of course this actual D&D book published for D&D by the company that created D&D doesn't matter, I suppose, because it doesn't fit the narrative. The original Monster Manual entry says they are Lawful Evil, but are pretty well organized, so even if they're eeeeeevil creatures to kill, they're more sophisticated than modern gamers want to believe. I suppose they never actually read Lord of the Rings...

Actual facts never matter to the creatures that do this. It's just a means to exert power over others. That's always been the case.

Quote from: Brad on April 02, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
Recently got Orcs of Thar...interesting this came out in 1988. Orcs, and a lot of the other goblinoid races, are depicted as what looks like misunderstood jerks. They're literally alien compared to humans and do not think the same whatsoever. They remind me more of viking raiders than eeeeeevil monsters, honestly.

  Oh, that book has gotten into a lot of trouble recently.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 02, 2023, 10:40:53 AM

Quote from: Brad on April 02, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
Recently got Orcs of Thar...interesting this came out in 1988. Orcs, and a lot of the other goblinoid races, are depicted as what looks like misunderstood jerks. They're literally alien compared to humans and do not think the same whatsoever. They remind me more of viking raiders than eeeeeevil monsters, honestly.

  Oh, that book has gotten into a lot of trouble recently.

If this is what you've decided to research as a graduate student in Native American studies, you've really got way too much time on your hands and an utterly skewed sense of priorities.  This adventure supplement has had zero impact on the plight of Native American or African or Asian American communities.  Why not try solving real societal problems & issues stemming from things like broken families, drug abuse and alcoholism, etc.  Next thing we know, some grad student is going to claim reading this triggered 9/11.

The entire supplement, like much of the gazetteer line, is written in a tongue-in-cheek fashion.  That was my problem with it back in the day.  I wanted a more serious take.  But we rolled up characters and had fun playing them for a few sessions anyhow.

This stuff drives me nuts.  Just like the forced changing of team names & mascots in sports.  I've yet to see a study showing any demonstrable positive effect on Native American societies since the Indians became the Guardians or the Redskins became the Commanders.  But I've seen plenty of white virtue signalers crowing about it.

Quote from: Persimmon on April 02, 2023, 11:12:40 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 02, 2023, 10:40:53 AM

Quote from: Brad on April 02, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
Recently got Orcs of Thar...interesting this came out in 1988. Orcs, and a lot of the other goblinoid races, are depicted as what looks like misunderstood jerks. They're literally alien compared to humans and do not think the same whatsoever. They remind me more of viking raiders than eeeeeevil monsters, honestly.

  Oh, that book has gotten into a lot of trouble recently.

If this is what you've decided to research as a graduate student in Native American studies, you've really got way too much time on your hands and an utterly skewed sense of priorities.  This adventure supplement has had zero impact on the plight of Native American or African or Asian American communities.  Why not try solving real societal problems & issues stemming from things like broken families, drug abuse and alcoholism, etc.  Next thing we know, some grad student is going to claim reading this triggered 9/11.

The entire supplement, like much of the gazetteer line, is written in a tongue-in-cheek fashion.  That was my problem with it back in the day.  I wanted a more serious take.  But we rolled up characters and had fun playing them for a few sessions anyhow.

This stuff drives me nuts.  Just like the forced changing of team names & mascots in sports.  I've yet to see a study showing any demonstrable positive effect on Native American societies since the Indians became the Guardians or the Redskins became the Commanders.  But I've seen plenty of white virtue signalers crowing about it.

If one of the teams was called the Nashville N*****s would you feel the same?

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on April 02, 2023, 01:33:17 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on April 02, 2023, 11:12:40 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 02, 2023, 10:40:53 AM

Quote from: Brad on April 02, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
Recently got Orcs of Thar...interesting this came out in 1988. Orcs, and a lot of the other goblinoid races, are depicted as what looks like misunderstood jerks. They're literally alien compared to humans and do not think the same whatsoever. They remind me more of viking raiders than eeeeeevil monsters, honestly.

  Oh, that book has gotten into a lot of trouble recently.

If this is what you've decided to research as a graduate student in Native American studies, you've really got way too much time on your hands and an utterly skewed sense of priorities.  This adventure supplement has had zero impact on the plight of Native American or African or Asian American communities.  Why not try solving real societal problems & issues stemming from things like broken families, drug abuse and alcoholism, etc.  Next thing we know, some grad student is going to claim reading this triggered 9/11.

The entire supplement, like much of the gazetteer line, is written in a tongue-in-cheek fashion.  That was my problem with it back in the day.  I wanted a more serious take.  But we rolled up characters and had fun playing them for a few sessions anyhow.

This stuff drives me nuts.  Just like the forced changing of team names & mascots in sports.  I've yet to see a study showing any demonstrable positive effect on Native American societies since the Indians became the Guardians or the Redskins became the Commanders.  But I've seen plenty of white virtue signalers crowing about it.

If one of the teams was called the Nashville N*****s would you feel the same

I'll take 'things that are in no way comparable' for 300, please Alex.