TheRPGSite

(if you aren't familiar with the term, the Pundit defines it here (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=769&page=60))

RPGs are an inherently escapist hobby.  They are about pretending to be someone else for a while.  This means that they will appeal to someone with a tenuous grasp on the consentually perceived reality or who has something about themselves or their life that they want to escape from

Also, the complex formal systems will appeal to high-functioning autistics like those with Aspergers syndrome as will the creation of a world where you can control the details (I'm speaking as an Aspie myself).  There's a strong collaration between autistic spectrum disorders and social disfunction (heck, it's one of the differential diagnostics).  Many autistics have a problem with strong sensations on their skin (part of the reason why they don't like being touched) and this can manifest as poor personal hygiene

(myself, I've learnt to "ride the wave" - showering and being hugged feels goooooooood)

None of these are excuses.  They're reasons why these people are attracted to our hobby

Assuming this is true, what can and should be done.  I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear other responses first

Edit: Added more 'o's to good ;)

I think, yes, you're pretty much right, there will always be lawncrappers, but that doesn't mean there have to be lawncrappers at one's gaming table.  Not wanting to game with someone because they stink isn't elitism or snobbery, it's sound hygienic policy.  I'm sure others will step and talk about just quietly telling people in order to play with your group, they need to shower.  And that's cool, too.

If you ask me, any hobby is susceptible to folks taking it too seriously. It's just a matter of not really kicking them out, because you can't really force people to not do things they want to do, but either slowly induct them to the rules of proper conduct, or make them play with someone else.

I try to interview new people who want to join our group.  I meet them in a public place and talk to them about the game.  If I don't like the person, I won't call them to join us.  It's as simple as that.

I'm not a lawncrapper.  I'm a very functional graduate student.

I think they're inevitable, sure. I also think it's good when they can find one another and have their very own groups consisting entirely of folk who can deal with their presence, because I can't. :(

Its inevitable that Lawncrappers exist in all areas of hobbies or social structures, but it is accepting it as part of the norm that is wrong.

Knowing that there is that scary smelly guy in the FLGS is enough to put you off, especially when you are at an impressionable age.

It is kicking these sods out of your group that we are saying.

Quote from: S. John RossI think they're inevitable, sure. I also think it's good when they can find one another and have their very own groups consisting entirely of folk who can deal with their presence, because I can't. :(

For some reason, thinking about this reminded me of that Blind Melon video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0A18ElDQKM).

I think they're inevitable in any hobby that, at some point, might require you to venture into the general hobby goer population for new gamers, a convention, or even a trip to the game store.

Some percentage of the population is screwed up. Just three weeks ago I had a meth addict almost run me over with his bike, jump off it, throw himself on the ground, and start begging for money. I mean, does that make this guy a methamphetamine lawn crapper? Do the other meth heads sit around thinking, "Man, meth would be so much cooler if we didn't have so many freaks doing it?"

Anyway, regardless of what you do messed up people will also do it. In the case of RPGs, we can always hope that the socially dysfunctional will all retreat to the comforting, no social skills required World of Warcraft.

They can have 'em!

Quote from: mearlsSome percentage of the population is screwed up. Just three weeks ago I had a meth addict almost run me over with his bike, jump off it, throw himself on the ground, and start begging for money. I mean, does that make this guy a methamphetamine lawn crapper? Do the other meth heads sit around thinking, "Man, meth would be so much cooler if we didn't have so many freaks doing it?"

Well, Mearls, generally speaking the meth-smoking percentage of our population is pretty well screwed up already.

Did you seriously just compare the RPG hobby to Meth addiction? :wtfsign:

RPGPundit

Quote from: mearlsAnyway, regardless of what you do messed up people will also do it. In the case of RPGs, we can always hope that the socially dysfunctional will all retreat to the comforting, no social skills required World of Warcraft.

They can have 'em!

Like Stephen Colbert said: "Enjoy your magnificent isolation!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1O2fVwXs30) :D

Or, if you want the green screen version... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9yWLlaOHBw) ;)

Quote from: mearlsDo the other meth heads sit around thinking, "Man, meth would be so much cooler if we didn't have so many freaks doing it?"

Not that it has anything to do with the discussion, but I felt the need to answer your rhetorical question.

Yes.  They do.

Quote from: RPGPunditWell, Mearls, generally speaking the meth-smoking percentage of our population is pretty well screwed up already.

Did you seriously just compare the RPG hobby to Meth addiction? :wtfsign:

Only in a (failed) attempt at humor.

I think the goal of improving the image of RPGs is a laudable one, but RPGs are simply too niche to ever gain reasonable media coverage.

The media will always focus on the fringe aspects of whatever niche hobby or activity they cover. It's simply a better story. A story about crazed baseball fans simply doesn't resonate, because almost everyone in the US knows a baseball fan and can plainly see that he's not crazy.

The same thing is increasingly true for console games. They're in so many households, and used by so many people, that any attempt to paint their users as maladjusted or weird is bound to fail.

We see things like WoW and RPGs portrayed in such negative light because, unless there's a freak angle, people really don't care to read about it.

Now, I do wholeheartedly agree that individuals and groups should try to help normalize people with destructive personal habits. I worked as a sysadmin at a college and joined the school's gaming club. One guy at the club absolutely refused to bathe, and NOBODY in the group confronted him about it. His stench was so bad that any social gathering that he showed up to quickly dispersed, yet no one ever said anything to him. Publicly advertised group meetings were always cursed by his presence. In my POV, the club quickly lost any casual or fringe gamers and became the retreat of the hardcore gamers who were willing to condone the guy's behavior.

So, I think there are ways that gaming can refrom its image, but there's only so much you can do. There will always be messed up people in gaming, and in many cases merely confronting them about it (Bathe, goddamnit!) doesn't do any good.

I mean, what are you supposed to do? Fire someone from gaming? You can't prevent people from going into a store or showing up at a con. And where the heck do you draw the line? I'd have gladly kicked the shrieking anime girls out of GenCon, but I doubt that I'd be in the majority if it came to a vote.

Quote from: mearlsI mean, what are you supposed to do? Fire someone from gaming? You can't prevent people from going into a store or showing up at a con. And where the heck do you draw the line? I'd have gladly kicked the shrieking anime girls out of GenCon, but I doubt that I'd be in the majority if it came to a vote.

I guess we know who was responsible for that busted water main at the Hyatt this year that wiped out some of their events. :heh:

Quote from: GabrielNot that it has anything to do with the discussion, but I felt the need to answer your rhetorical question.

Yes.  They do.

So, so true. Hell, I remember when crack was classy, before all of the nutters got into it.

Those were the days.

QuoteSo, so true. Hell, I remember when crack was classy, before all of the nutters got into it.

Those were the days.

:teehee:

It's easy to talk about the catpissmen. But they're only the tip of an iceberg that gets more and more controversial the deeper you get. I don't think I'm the only one to notice that RPGs attract a higher-than-average percentage of people who are "deviant" relative to mainstream society, whether it be in religious belief and practice, sexual mores, or unusual personality quirks.

Personally, whether to draw a line is up to each person and group, but if the default assumption is one of absolute tolerance, then that in itself will mark gaming "culture" as outside of the mainstream.

I think it's something of a self-fulfilling prophecy (probably not the best term for it, but since I'm posting from work I don't want to put too much time into word choice, given that the powers that be may recognize that I have a wee bit of downtime).  

Gaming is generally, in the popular mind, considered to be something of a deviant hobby, so then people who already self-identify as deviant in some way see rpgs as a hobby where they can be accepted, not because of an assumption of tolerance (gamers, in general, do not seem to be any more or less tolerant than anybody else), but because "that's where all the deviants are."  

If nothing else, it's a hobby where deviants think they can hang out with a bunch of other deviants and feel accepted, if for no other reason beyond these freaks make me look normal.

That said, I still refuse to hang out and converse with the lawncrappers.  They irritate the crap out of me.  If the choice is between hanging with the lawncrappers and not gaming, I take the mythical third path and create a bunch of gamers out of my friends who aren't gamers (done it before and I'll do it again, if need be).

Yes, 'lawncrappers' are inevitable. We can't all be gifted with perfection, ordeained by God to be paragons of infallible virtue like some people apparently believe they are....

Quote from: Dominus NoxYes, 'lawncrappers' are inevitable. We can't all be gifted with perfection, ordeained by God to be paragons of infallible virtue like some people apparently believe they are....

We aren't talking about the blind or quadruplegics here, we're talking about people who have made the choice to be socially dysfunctional. They could change that; it might not be easy, especially depending on how far they've let it go, but they can.  

The fact that they choose not to, and try to be defensive about their offensiveness rather than actually try to be considerate and improve themselves, is  more than enough ammo for me to want to do everything in my fucking power to remove them from the gaming hobby, whether or not that's an ultimately realizable goal.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditWe aren't talking about the blind or quadruplegics here, we're talking about people who have made the choice to be socially dysfunctional. They could change that; it might not be easy, especially depending on how far they've let it go, but they can.

Actually RPGPundit what Hastur T. Fannon is talking about in autism is borderline and the farside of the borderline of choice.  Just because it isn't as easy to spot or understand by J. Q. Public as a couple missing legs or steering their wheelchair with a mouth joystick doesn't nessasarily make it any less of a very real disability with very little or no choice about certain aspects.  Your assumption is the capability and/or state of selfawareness, which is not nessasarily the case.

In Hastur's case he fortunately is, but this is not always the case. Sometimes it isn't even possible with outside help, even if they are fortunate to have someone recognize the situation who has the knowledge and resources to help them.

Quote from: RPGPunditWe aren't talking about the blind or quadruplegics here, we're talking about people who have made the choice to be socially dysfunctional. They could change that; it might not be easy, especially depending on how far they've let it go, but they can.  

The fact that they choose not to, and try to be defensive about their offensiveness rather than actually try to be considerate and improve themselves, is  more than enough ammo for me to want to do everything in my fucking power to remove them from the gaming hobby, whether or not that's an ultimately realizable goal.

RPGPundit

Hey, if you want to snuff out what trivial element of joy someone may get out of his life by driving him out gaming, it's your right to try, just like it's my right to say if you try that on someone I'd laugh if he punched your lights out.

A lot of your so-called lawncrappers don't choose to be socially dysfunctional, many of them are abused by bad parents, bullied at school, fucked over by an incompetent educational system until their entire psyche is totally wrecked and therefore don't need some obnoxious geek trying to make himself feel superior by picking on them after thw world has softened them up for him.

None of us has a perfect life. We are more than the sum of our experiences; we are the product of our choices.  Short of actual biological damage, no one is "stuck" being the way they act. Using past experiences as an excuse for present behaviour is a cop-out.

RPGPundit

Here we go:

No gaming is better than bad gaming

I'll say it again:

No gaming is better than bad gaming

(incidentally, the person who nicked that slogon off of the feminists is an absolute genius and I'd like to shake his or her hand)

There is a gaming group in my area that contains two of the most wonderfully creative GMs I know.  I often bounce ideas off of them and I'd love to play in their games.

I do not attend.  The group also contains an iconic fatbeard (no, really) and a bloke who is so terminally annoying that a want to plant the heal of my palm at the base of his nose every time I meet him.  No gaming is better than bad gaming (and, luckily, I have my own group that contains one of those GMs)

Ladies and gentleman? I was that lawncrapper.  Every time someone tolerated my bizarre behaviour they were enabling me, just as someone who lends an addict $10 knowing they are going to buy crack with it is enabling their addiction.

So don't tolerate it.  Fuck the geek social fallacies: No gaming is better than bad gaming.  If you're at a pickup game at a con and someone stinks tell them so and if they won't do something about it just get up and walk away.  If you're GMing at a con and con rules don't allow you to ban someone from your table for bad personal hygine (or, frankly, any other reason) DON'T GM.

A high-functioning autistic can function in normal society if they choose - that's what the "high-functioning" bit means.  They'll never be "baseline" (that's our term for "normal"), but they can learn to fake it.  I still can't make eye contact and think at the same time and I find stressful social situations or large crowds difficult, but I've learnt to deal with this because that's what it means to be a human being.  Autism isn't an excuse, it's a reason.  I've found the help and I've made the necessary changes to my behaviour.  So can any lawncrapper.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonNo gaming is better than bad gaming

My experience has also shown this to be true. I game with people that either are friends or I see potentially becoming friends. This tends to be in someways even more exclusive than just generally socially acceptable.

Now people in the store I'm a little more lenient with. Fortunately I've never actually run into Cat Pissman at the local FLGS. Maybe they already bounce such offenders, I might just ask next time I'm in. People that appear flat out odd ducks, yes.  Like the guy that looks like he's late twenties (complete with goofy long rimmed Pokemon hat) in the Pokemon tournament where all the other entrants, including his opponent, are at least 2 years shy of puberty.  Or people that you just know you'll never willingly find yourself at the table with, because the 'poor social skills' vibe they give off. Or are someone that you were unfortunate enough to have already found yourself at a table with.

-----

What follows is more of a personal request for information than anything, as I have 4 year-old on the spectrum and definately in the high functioning catagory. What clued you in about your specific bad habits, and that they were something you could/should/whould do something about?  Was it someone you knew? Did you just figure it out yourself? Was it a comment from a stranger? A book or article?

Something that I keep coming across as a parent is that I should explain early and explain often to my son just how differently "typs" (AKA baseline or normal) see the world. But I'm curious about other sources of "light bulb" momments.

I also get the value of being blunt and explicit, since body language is typically a lot tougher to understand. Especially for people that aren't also aware. It is also possible the well ment social "politeness" of not being blunt is totally lost and/or unappreciated. Meaning what would hurt a typ's feelings can quite likely be inconciquental. Not that there isn't all sorts on the spectrum, and people on the specturm aren't going to be fully the extent of lawncrappers.

P.S.  I do think it is important to remember that it is refered to as a spectrum for a reason, and the variation you find between people in the general public holds as much true if not more-so.  For example I'm very fortunate that my son has few if any tactile sensory hangups.  Hugs are pretty much ok, and he loves laying in the bath (with his ears below waterline). In fact he's the opposite as he jumps off things higher than himself and runs just to get the sensation of pressure in his legs.  You'll also find people lower down the functioning ladder and ability to cope with the 'human' aspects of being, but still short of requiring institutionalization.

EDIT I will say that with online shopping that I think the public service aspect of letting someone in a store to purchase items has mostly evaporated.

Quote from: blakkieWhat follows is more of a personal request for information than anything, as I have 4 year-old on the spectrum and definately in the high functioning catagory. What clued you in about your specific bad habits, and that they were something you could/should/whould do something about?

I had a full psychiatric workup during my teens after a serious incident, but Assburgers wasn't really fashionable back then and they had more important problems to fix than social disfunction.  I spent most of my teens and the first two years of university not really giving a fuck that people thought I was weird and wondering what this strange emotion I was feeling.  Final year I realised it was loneliness and started observing which behaviour people reacted well to and which they didn't and editing accordingly.

That summer I went to a four-day music festival where I got more and more varied tongue action than I had in the previous 20 years of my existance (the idea of going any further than second base was still too freaky)

The following weekend I met the woman who became my wife.  One of the first things I said when I realised I was in my first serious relationship was that I wouldn't be able to tell when I'd done something wrong (so sulking and mind games wouldn't work), she'd have to tell me and she'd also have to tell me in some detail exactly what I'd done.  I also promised that I'd do my level best not to do it again.  My boss sent me on a couple of communications skills courses, which helped a lot and I got some cognative therapy through my work to sort out some of the continuing fallout from the incident in my early teens.  Incidentally, Aspies respond really well to cognative therapy and similar techniques like NLP so it might be worth reading up on them so you can teach them to your kid when he becomes old enough to understand them

Quote from: blakkieI also get the value of being blunt and explicit, since body language is typically a lot tougher to understand. Especially for people that aren't also aware. It is also possible the well ment social "politeness" of not being blunt is totally lost and/or unappreciated. Meaning what would hurt a typ's feelings can quite likely be inconciquental.

Bingo

I've been asked privately if there was a turning point that made me realise that I had to change

Yep.  In my own small way, I reached rock bottom.  It was either sort my life out or take up self-mutilation as an alternative hobby

Thanks for sharing your insight. That's quite impressive, you've beaten some serious odds just getting married. :)

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonIncidentally, Aspies respond really well to cognative therapy and similar techniques like NLP so it might be worth reading up on them so you can teach them to your kid when he becomes old enough to understand them

Thanks for the tip. I already have some familiarity with cognative therapy, but I'll delve into it further. I've gone through some myself to deal with some of the more negative aspects of my own ADHD. His apple isn't that far from my tree. Prior to post secondary I didn't really get people, and was borderline savant at mathematics to boot. Where we are similar it's like he's me squared. :duh: But the rigidity we are kinda on opposites ends of.

I'm not sure he'll eventually fall under Asperger's, he leans closer to hyperlexia. Hard to be certain this young, but he was offically diagnosed so young (2 1/2) largely because he's relatively non-verbal. His speech development is all driven by his reading. He literally reads and spells (just learning to write, he disliked writing because of his own lack of precision) before he talks. But now that you mention it I suspect that it will be applicable all the same.

Fortunately he's at roughly a Grade 1-2 reading level already, and not just using sight words though that is how he started out and is still his primary technique. Also very fortunate that he is in a pre-school program that is very specialized to high functioning ASD, and a fairly unique one. We now use social stories and velcoed pics and a few other things. The gains he's had in the one year, and that I've seen in his classmates, has convinced us to drive/help to expand the program into Grades 1 to 12, openning (building permit inspection willing :) ) that up on this Tuesday. Because there is this huge hole in schools, nearly nothing in this city of 1 million people, for kids with low social but high academic abilities. Historically it seems it was assumed that if you can't pick up social interaction largely on your own without help then you can't learn anything. The best you should ever hope to achieve at school, if not in life, is to tie your shoes and count change. :(