It's easy to talk about the catpissmen. But they're only the tip of an iceberg that gets more and more controversial the deeper you get. I don't think I'm the only one to notice that RPGs attract a higher-than-average percentage of people who are "deviant" relative to mainstream society, whether it be in religious belief and practice, sexual mores, or unusual personality quirks.

Personally, whether to draw a line is up to each person and group, but if the default assumption is one of absolute tolerance, then that in itself will mark gaming "culture" as outside of the mainstream.

I think it's something of a self-fulfilling prophecy (probably not the best term for it, but since I'm posting from work I don't want to put too much time into word choice, given that the powers that be may recognize that I have a wee bit of downtime).  

Gaming is generally, in the popular mind, considered to be something of a deviant hobby, so then people who already self-identify as deviant in some way see rpgs as a hobby where they can be accepted, not because of an assumption of tolerance (gamers, in general, do not seem to be any more or less tolerant than anybody else), but because "that's where all the deviants are."  

If nothing else, it's a hobby where deviants think they can hang out with a bunch of other deviants and feel accepted, if for no other reason beyond these freaks make me look normal.

That said, I still refuse to hang out and converse with the lawncrappers.  They irritate the crap out of me.  If the choice is between hanging with the lawncrappers and not gaming, I take the mythical third path and create a bunch of gamers out of my friends who aren't gamers (done it before and I'll do it again, if need be).

Yes, 'lawncrappers' are inevitable. We can't all be gifted with perfection, ordeained by God to be paragons of infallible virtue like some people apparently believe they are....

Quote from: Dominus NoxYes, 'lawncrappers' are inevitable. We can't all be gifted with perfection, ordeained by God to be paragons of infallible virtue like some people apparently believe they are....

We aren't talking about the blind or quadruplegics here, we're talking about people who have made the choice to be socially dysfunctional. They could change that; it might not be easy, especially depending on how far they've let it go, but they can.  

The fact that they choose not to, and try to be defensive about their offensiveness rather than actually try to be considerate and improve themselves, is  more than enough ammo for me to want to do everything in my fucking power to remove them from the gaming hobby, whether or not that's an ultimately realizable goal.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditWe aren't talking about the blind or quadruplegics here, we're talking about people who have made the choice to be socially dysfunctional. They could change that; it might not be easy, especially depending on how far they've let it go, but they can.

Actually RPGPundit what Hastur T. Fannon is talking about in autism is borderline and the farside of the borderline of choice.  Just because it isn't as easy to spot or understand by J. Q. Public as a couple missing legs or steering their wheelchair with a mouth joystick doesn't nessasarily make it any less of a very real disability with very little or no choice about certain aspects.  Your assumption is the capability and/or state of selfawareness, which is not nessasarily the case.

In Hastur's case he fortunately is, but this is not always the case. Sometimes it isn't even possible with outside help, even if they are fortunate to have someone recognize the situation who has the knowledge and resources to help them.

Quote from: RPGPunditWe aren't talking about the blind or quadruplegics here, we're talking about people who have made the choice to be socially dysfunctional. They could change that; it might not be easy, especially depending on how far they've let it go, but they can.  

The fact that they choose not to, and try to be defensive about their offensiveness rather than actually try to be considerate and improve themselves, is  more than enough ammo for me to want to do everything in my fucking power to remove them from the gaming hobby, whether or not that's an ultimately realizable goal.

RPGPundit

Hey, if you want to snuff out what trivial element of joy someone may get out of his life by driving him out gaming, it's your right to try, just like it's my right to say if you try that on someone I'd laugh if he punched your lights out.

A lot of your so-called lawncrappers don't choose to be socially dysfunctional, many of them are abused by bad parents, bullied at school, fucked over by an incompetent educational system until their entire psyche is totally wrecked and therefore don't need some obnoxious geek trying to make himself feel superior by picking on them after thw world has softened them up for him.

None of us has a perfect life. We are more than the sum of our experiences; we are the product of our choices.  Short of actual biological damage, no one is "stuck" being the way they act. Using past experiences as an excuse for present behaviour is a cop-out.

RPGPundit

Here we go:

No gaming is better than bad gaming

I'll say it again:

No gaming is better than bad gaming

(incidentally, the person who nicked that slogon off of the feminists is an absolute genius and I'd like to shake his or her hand)

There is a gaming group in my area that contains two of the most wonderfully creative GMs I know.  I often bounce ideas off of them and I'd love to play in their games.

I do not attend.  The group also contains an iconic fatbeard (no, really) and a bloke who is so terminally annoying that a want to plant the heal of my palm at the base of his nose every time I meet him.  No gaming is better than bad gaming (and, luckily, I have my own group that contains one of those GMs)

Ladies and gentleman? I was that lawncrapper.  Every time someone tolerated my bizarre behaviour they were enabling me, just as someone who lends an addict $10 knowing they are going to buy crack with it is enabling their addiction.

So don't tolerate it.  Fuck the geek social fallacies: No gaming is better than bad gaming.  If you're at a pickup game at a con and someone stinks tell them so and if they won't do something about it just get up and walk away.  If you're GMing at a con and con rules don't allow you to ban someone from your table for bad personal hygine (or, frankly, any other reason) DON'T GM.

A high-functioning autistic can function in normal society if they choose - that's what the "high-functioning" bit means.  They'll never be "baseline" (that's our term for "normal"), but they can learn to fake it.  I still can't make eye contact and think at the same time and I find stressful social situations or large crowds difficult, but I've learnt to deal with this because that's what it means to be a human being.  Autism isn't an excuse, it's a reason.  I've found the help and I've made the necessary changes to my behaviour.  So can any lawncrapper.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonNo gaming is better than bad gaming

My experience has also shown this to be true. I game with people that either are friends or I see potentially becoming friends. This tends to be in someways even more exclusive than just generally socially acceptable.

Now people in the store I'm a little more lenient with. Fortunately I've never actually run into Cat Pissman at the local FLGS. Maybe they already bounce such offenders, I might just ask next time I'm in. People that appear flat out odd ducks, yes.  Like the guy that looks like he's late twenties (complete with goofy long rimmed Pokemon hat) in the Pokemon tournament where all the other entrants, including his opponent, are at least 2 years shy of puberty.  Or people that you just know you'll never willingly find yourself at the table with, because the 'poor social skills' vibe they give off. Or are someone that you were unfortunate enough to have already found yourself at a table with.

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What follows is more of a personal request for information than anything, as I have 4 year-old on the spectrum and definately in the high functioning catagory. What clued you in about your specific bad habits, and that they were something you could/should/whould do something about?  Was it someone you knew? Did you just figure it out yourself? Was it a comment from a stranger? A book or article?

Something that I keep coming across as a parent is that I should explain early and explain often to my son just how differently "typs" (AKA baseline or normal) see the world. But I'm curious about other sources of "light bulb" momments.

I also get the value of being blunt and explicit, since body language is typically a lot tougher to understand. Especially for people that aren't also aware. It is also possible the well ment social "politeness" of not being blunt is totally lost and/or unappreciated. Meaning what would hurt a typ's feelings can quite likely be inconciquental. Not that there isn't all sorts on the spectrum, and people on the specturm aren't going to be fully the extent of lawncrappers.

P.S.  I do think it is important to remember that it is refered to as a spectrum for a reason, and the variation you find between people in the general public holds as much true if not more-so.  For example I'm very fortunate that my son has few if any tactile sensory hangups.  Hugs are pretty much ok, and he loves laying in the bath (with his ears below waterline). In fact he's the opposite as he jumps off things higher than himself and runs just to get the sensation of pressure in his legs.  You'll also find people lower down the functioning ladder and ability to cope with the 'human' aspects of being, but still short of requiring institutionalization.

EDIT I will say that with online shopping that I think the public service aspect of letting someone in a store to purchase items has mostly evaporated.

Quote from: blakkieWhat follows is more of a personal request for information than anything, as I have 4 year-old on the spectrum and definately in the high functioning catagory. What clued you in about your specific bad habits, and that they were something you could/should/whould do something about?

I had a full psychiatric workup during my teens after a serious incident, but Assburgers wasn't really fashionable back then and they had more important problems to fix than social disfunction.  I spent most of my teens and the first two years of university not really giving a fuck that people thought I was weird and wondering what this strange emotion I was feeling.  Final year I realised it was loneliness and started observing which behaviour people reacted well to and which they didn't and editing accordingly.

That summer I went to a four-day music festival where I got more and more varied tongue action than I had in the previous 20 years of my existance (the idea of going any further than second base was still too freaky)

The following weekend I met the woman who became my wife.  One of the first things I said when I realised I was in my first serious relationship was that I wouldn't be able to tell when I'd done something wrong (so sulking and mind games wouldn't work), she'd have to tell me and she'd also have to tell me in some detail exactly what I'd done.  I also promised that I'd do my level best not to do it again.  My boss sent me on a couple of communications skills courses, which helped a lot and I got some cognative therapy through my work to sort out some of the continuing fallout from the incident in my early teens.  Incidentally, Aspies respond really well to cognative therapy and similar techniques like NLP so it might be worth reading up on them so you can teach them to your kid when he becomes old enough to understand them

Quote from: blakkieI also get the value of being blunt and explicit, since body language is typically a lot tougher to understand. Especially for people that aren't also aware. It is also possible the well ment social "politeness" of not being blunt is totally lost and/or unappreciated. Meaning what would hurt a typ's feelings can quite likely be inconciquental.

Bingo

I've been asked privately if there was a turning point that made me realise that I had to change

Yep.  In my own small way, I reached rock bottom.  It was either sort my life out or take up self-mutilation as an alternative hobby

Thanks for sharing your insight. That's quite impressive, you've beaten some serious odds just getting married.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonIncidentally, Aspies respond really well to cognative therapy and similar techniques like NLP so it might be worth reading up on them so you can teach them to your kid when he becomes old enough to understand them

Thanks for the tip. I already have some familiarity with cognative therapy, but I'll delve into it further. I've gone through some myself to deal with some of the more negative aspects of my own ADHD. His apple isn't that far from my tree. Prior to post secondary I didn't really get people, and was borderline savant at mathematics to boot. Where we are similar it's like he's me squared. :duh: But the rigidity we are kinda on opposites ends of.

I'm not sure he'll eventually fall under Asperger's, he leans closer to hyperlexia. Hard to be certain this young, but he was offically diagnosed so young (2 1/2) largely because he's relatively non-verbal. His speech development is all driven by his reading. He literally reads and spells (just learning to write, he disliked writing because of his own lack of precision) before he talks. But now that you mention it I suspect that it will be applicable all the same.

Fortunately he's at roughly a Grade 1-2 reading level already, and not just using sight words though that is how he started out and is still his primary technique. Also very fortunate that he is in a pre-school program that is very specialized to high functioning ASD, and a fairly unique one. We now use social stories and velcoed pics and a few other things. The gains he's had in the one year, and that I've seen in his classmates, has convinced us to drive/help to expand the program into Grades 1 to 12, openning (building permit inspection willing ) that up on this Tuesday. Because there is this huge hole in schools, nearly nothing in this city of 1 million people, for kids with low social but high academic abilities. Historically it seems it was assumed that if you can't pick up social interaction largely on your own without help then you can't learn anything. The best you should ever hope to achieve at school, if not in life, is to tie your shoes and count change.