The settings that fall under the category of "grimdark": hopelessly oppressive, ridiculously militaristic usually, almost always full of cheap "visuals" full of nonsense comparable to the worst masturbation fantasies of certain types of comic book artists and heavy metal fans.

This thread is the chance for anyone who wants to try to argue that these settings have any redeeming qualities; are any of them actually worthwhile because of their value as settings? As comedy? As cautionary tales? Anything else?

And if so, what makes those different from the vast majority of ridiculously vapid Grimdark settings?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;501954The settings that fall under the category of "grimdark": hopelessly oppressive, ridiculously militaristic usually, almost always full of cheap "visuals" full of nonsense comparable to the worst masturbation fantasies of certain types of comic book artists and heavy metal fans.

This thread is the chance for anyone who wants to try to argue that these settings have any redeeming qualities; are any of them actually worthwhile because of their value as settings? As comedy? As cautionary tales? Anything else?

And if so, what makes those different from the vast majority of ridiculously vapid Grimdark settings?

RPGPundit

Does Ravenloft count?

I like both WFRP and 40k. I also play them pretty straight. There are a lot of periods of human history that were just as nasty as WFRP. I could also see a sf setting like 40k happen (if FTL spaceships every happen at all), knowing how shitty people treat each other. Maybe they wouldn't have the monsters and aliens, but they'd still have the repressive governments with most people living in squalor. (Most of the world does that now).

To put it another way, I think a world like WFRP is far more likely to happen than a world like the Forgotten Realms.

Quote from: misterguignol;501956Does Ravenloft count?

Ravenloft isn't really 100% grimdark, as there's no hope there - it's horror upon horror. In grimdark there's that tiny sliver of hope left.

I dunno - I love Warhammer FRP, but 1e, 2e was too...grimdark for me. I do like the setting of 40.000 though - they should stop making it serious while retaining all the old jokes though. One way or the other.

I think those settings are decent - I usually lower the level of "dark" when I take them, and raise the level of "grim". They're certainly good when you want to pit the heroes against impossible odds - so that fighting becomes the victory in itself, as real victory is probably impossible.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501958Ravenloft isn't really 100% grimdark, as there's no hope there - it's horror upon horror. In grimdark there's that tiny sliver of hope left.

This is why I'm asking: when people use the phrase "grimdark" I'm not sure I know exactly what they mean.

Quote from: misterguignol;501959This is why I'm asking: when people use the phrase "grimdark" I'm not sure I know exactly what they mean.

There's no official definition, but the term was probably made for Warhammer's world.

So what I believe is the most common understanding of it, and therefore a definition if only by means of positive one:

A dark world full of suffering and pain, where evil is powerful and good is oppressed and lacking in number, where draconic law are enforced for the actual good of the society, as weakness may lead to it's downfall. There's however a slim chance of defeating of evil, and if not of it's defeat - then at least at forever keeping it at bay.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501958Ravenloft isn't really 100% grimdark, as there's no hope there - it's horror upon horror. In grimdark there's that tiny sliver of hope left.

I dunno - I love Warhammer FRP, but 1e, 2e was too...grimdark for me. I do like the setting of 40.000 though - they should stop making it serious while retaining all the old jokes though. One way or the other.

I think those settings are decent - I usually lower the level of "dark" when I take them, and raise the level of "grim". They're certainly good when you want to pit the heroes against impossible odds - so that fighting becomes the victory in itself, as real victory is probably impossible.

There is some hope in Ravenloft.  It is not always gloom and doom there in the setting.  There are many bastions of faith that still hold strong against the dark powers.

In any case, Ravenloft is a damn fine setting.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;501962There is some hope in Ravenloft.  It is not always gloom and doom there in the setting.  There are many bastions of faith that still hold strong against the dark powers.

Yes, but there's no hope of ever defeating the evil, or even keeping it at bay - Dark Powers are supreme rulers.

Then again, Ravenloft's more about the suffering of evil and the inescapable corruption of everything, and constant trials of heroes for such corruption.

I'd argue that "grimdark" is a term specifically meant to apply to later 40K, and that it's basically meaningless outside of that.

40K is worth playing in as a setting for many reasons. It has an incredible, massive scope that allows you to do some spectacular things as PCs and DMs without making the setting unplayable. The moral wretchedness of the Imperium provides grist for interesting moral speculation, especially if you allow the PCs freedom of conscience instead of dictating that they are brainwashed drones. There are also many overlapping layers of weirdness and wonder that allow one to move from familiarity to strangeness and back again without requiring one to radically rework how the Imperium functions.

In general, I think playing 40K as serious-Paranoia with demons is the wrong way to go, but I also don't think the setting needs to be treated as a farce to work either.

Warhammer's Old World isn't nearly as bleak in the books as people who talk about it as wallowing in mud and desperation make it out to be--that's pretty much just what people on the Internet say about it.  There's plenty in the setting that makes it redeemable; in fact, most of the larger campaigns center around the idea that the world is worth fighting for.

Ravenloft is definitely similar in focus.  While each realm is ruled by an irredeemable monster, the land and the people can be freed from their rule by champions on the side of right.  In fact, because it is based on Gothic horror fiction the villains in Ravenloft are worth fighting against precisely because they represent the antithesis of Western culture (in most cases anyway).  For example, the theme of Falkovia is the struggle against fascism.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501968Yes, but there's no hope of ever defeating the evil, or even keeping it at bay - Dark Powers are supreme rulers.

That's actually incorrect.

Quote from: misterguignol;501972That's actually incorrect.

Really? Tell more - I thought that, for example, The Big Bad Vampire was actually immortal by the very nature of his curse - he can only be slain if the girl he loves actually loves him back, and since she never does...

Quote from: misterguignol;501971Warhammer's Old World isn't nearly as bleak in the books as people who talk about it as wallowing in mud and desperation make it out to be--that's pretty much just what people on the Internet say about it.  There's plenty in the setting that makes it redeemable; in fact, most of the larger campaigns center around the idea that the world is worth fighting for.

Pseudo has a point that grimdark was coined mostly for 40k, where even the Imperium are basically fascists, and the only good guys were Tau - and that was before forced sterilisation of dissenters and concentration camps were introduced.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501973Really? Tell more - I thought that, for example, The Big Bad Vampire was actually immortal by the very nature of his curse - he can only be slain if the girl he loves actually loves him back, and since she never does...

This is what the spell "Modify Memory" was invented to handle.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501968Yes, but there's no hope of ever defeating the evil, or even keeping it at bay - Dark Powers are supreme rulers.

Not true. In fact, several adventures are about defeating a Dark Lord. It's not easy, but it is doable by powerful parties.