Are Grimdark Settings redeemable at all?

3rik · January 09, 2012, 07:49:02 PM

Apart from WH40K, for which I don't care, it's still unclear what would qualify as grimdark. Could Wraith: the Oblivion be considered grimdark? And how about Unhallowed Metropolis?

crkrueger · January 09, 2012, 09:19:35 PM

This is Grimdark
This is 40k on Grimdark
You'll never get a better description about what 40k is then this.

stu2000 · January 09, 2012, 09:24:26 PM

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;502539Apart from WH40K, for which I don't care, it's still unclear what would qualify as grimdark. Could Wraith: the Oblivion be considered grimdark? And how about Unhallowed Metropolis?

I would say the ultra-dark horror games, like Kult, Nephilim, or Unknown Armies.
The Biblical end times games like Rapture or The End.
Or the 40KRPG products.

I can't think of many games that didn't have a shred or hope in them
Then, of course, I think the absence of hope is an invitation to produce levity.

Tommy Brownell · January 10, 2012, 01:00:32 AM

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;502085I have all of the Midnight books and supplements that were released and I really enjoy that setting. It is sad it went the way of the Dodo...

In complete agreement. My single favorite thing to come out of the 3/.5 era. And, like you, I thankfully own everything.

Malleus Arianorum · January 10, 2012, 01:14:56 AM

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;502539Apart from WH40K, for which I don't care, it's still unclear what would qualify as grimdark. Could Wraith: the Oblivion be considered grimdark? And how about Unhallowed Metropolis?

From CRKrueger's link:

QuoteCommon grimdark themes include:
Massive, overbearing empires; e.g. "Big Brother is watching you".
Constant, never ever-ending warfare.
(jokes that cloud the issue, but that I liked)

Wraith, Unhallowed Metropolis, and the RL Black plague don't have Big Brother watching you by default. But it would be very easy to say, take the RL Black Plague and turn the Church into a big brother and then the setting would be very grimdark -- perhaps even indistinguishable from 40k.

I don't remember enough about Wraith to suggest a suitable Big Brother candidate, but you get the idea.
Big Brother + stomping on a human face forever = grimdark.

Spinachcat · January 10, 2012, 01:57:51 AM

Quote from: CRKrueger;502576This is Grimdark
This is 40k on Grimdark
You'll never get a better description about what 40k is then this.

1D4chan.org reminds me why I love Warhammer. I guess the most redeemable feature of Grimdark is how much freaking fun I have with the settings.

Grimdark is particularly awesome for one shot adventures. When the game ends in 4 hours, players can take their PCs to the hilt and go gonzo with the crazy that befits the setting.

I've run Warhammer Fantasy campaigns, but the high mortality rate kept the game dangerous and never lapsing into farce. Plus, the situation in WFRP isn't as dire as 40k...unless the rumors about the Skaven are true.

David R · January 10, 2012, 03:26:02 AM

I think Wraith would nicely fall into my personal def of GrimDark. Esp with the Shadow character in play.

Regards,
David R

Rincewind1 · January 10, 2012, 03:39:51 AM

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Brighthammer_40,000_(2nd_edition)

I think I prefer this more then the original.

Tommy Brownell · January 10, 2012, 10:35:40 PM

Quote from: GrimGent;502182Darklords and Dark Powers are two completely different things. For one easy way to tell the difference, DPs don't officially have names, appearances or discernible motivations, let alone stats.

("Are the Dark Powers good or evil? Are they gods or monsters? What is the ultimate goal of their grand and awful experiment? The truth may transcend mortal comprehension." --from the Ravenloft 3e core, page 11.)

Sorry, I misread the post I had quoted and thought the poster had said killing Dark LORDS was a step too far. My mistake.

Rincewind1 · January 10, 2012, 10:40:14 PM

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;503172Sorry, I misread the post I had quoted and thought the poster had said killing Dark LORDS was a step too far. My mistake.

I said that, but was corrected, and indeed admitted that slaying a DL can really be only the iceberg of party's problems.

kregmosier · January 10, 2012, 10:55:28 PM

I'm running out of popcorn waiting for Pundit to tell us how people who enjoy or play in these settings are brain-damaged.

Spinachcat · January 11, 2012, 05:29:01 AM

Quote from: kregmosier;503177I'm running out of popcorn waiting for Pundit to tell us how people who enjoy or play in these settings are brain-damaged.

I fully admit that I don't enjoy playing 40k with people who don't paint their armies. I'm not cool with it and yes, I know that's lame. And what's worse is that I buy my stuff already painted.

So I totally admit to being insane in the membrane.

Ancientgamer1970 · January 11, 2012, 08:02:53 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat;503303I fully admit that I don't enjoy playing 40k with people who don't paint their armies. I'm not cool with it and yes, I know that's lame. And what's worse is that I buy my stuff already painted.

So I totally admit to being insane in the membrane.

You buy painted armies??? That is LAME.

But I agree though, I will NOT play with people who play with unpainted armies.

Ghost Whistler · January 11, 2012, 09:56:31 AM

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;503328You buy painted armies??? That is LAME.

But I agree though, I will NOT play with people who play with unpainted armies.

Then, sir, you concede?

Daddy Warpig · January 11, 2012, 11:57:41 AM

Want to know what "grimdark" means?

Try "Crapsack World" from TV Tropes.

"A Crapsack World is a horrible place where the pessimistic notion of 'anything that can go wrong will go horribly wrong' almost always applies, and it corrupts its inhabitants into perpetuating that nastiness against each other. More succinctly, trying to survive in one of these places is gonna suck."

"t is usually dark and on the cynical end of the Sliding Scale of Idealism vs. Cynicism, so it will have either Grey and Gray Morality or Black and Grey Morality, if not outright Evil Versus Evil in the worst of cases (beware of Darkness Induced Audience Apathy if you decide to go this route though)."

"Settings like these are not kind at all to idealists, who usually get traumatized and/or die horribly when their attempts to change the world through idealistic means meet up with cold hard reality."

Source: TV Tropes

More elaboration, as well as many suggestions for which settings qualify, at the site.

Some examples:

"Basin City a.k.a. Sin City is one of the darker examples of a Crapsack World. It's a crime-ridden hellhole where vicious gangsters rule the streets and scum prey on the innocent, the police range from incompetent to outright corrupt (they even have a death squad to deal with those who get too close to the real bastards behind it all), and even the heroes of the setting tend to be ruthless sociopaths."

For Rincewind: "Polish RPG Neuroshima introduces postapocalyptic USA in which most of cities are destroyed, earth, air and water are polluted, north has been taken over by Moloch - giagantic inteligent machine that is slowly expanding and turns humans into mad cyborgs or mutants, south was taken over by Neojungle, full of monstrous beasts, there are bands of humans rampaging through the world as well as strange tornados, that are sources of strong narcotic and economics returned to pre-money times. There are four "colors" on which you can play that mostly determine which way of Dying Like Animals is dominant among people."

And, of course, Warhammer: "Warhammer (Warhammer Fantasy Battles, WHB) is an archetypal Crapsack World - a world doomed to perish into Chaos and its minions, themselves Eldritch Abominations. The world is grim and dark, inhabited by uncaring Lizardmen, haughty and snobbish High Elves, insanely bloodlusty Dark Elves, sullen and autistic Wood Elves, nasty, brutish and violent humans who come in a variety of flavours: Bretonnians, Empire or just about any other kind of evil Human you can imagine, cannibal Halflings, grudgy, implacable and fatalistic Dwarves, boorish Goblins, bullyish Orcs, bloodthirsty and wildly breeding Skaven ratmen, two types of Undead (Tomb Kings consisting of mummies, skeletons and zombies) and Vampire Counts (your local Dracula settings), and, of course, the insane Chaos. Of course, a Crapsack World requires to be ruled by Jerkass Gods - all the deities of the Warhammer worlds reflect the half-emptiness of the world itself."

Other examples for nearly every other type of media can be found. Enjoy.