Is the scale of the game (unbelievably powerful PC's) too powerful for its own good?
No. The game is what it is. It may be to powerful for some GM's and Players to feel comfortable with. But for those that want that sort of gaming the Power Curve works well. It's some balance issues and mechanics that bug me. But the concept is solid.
Quote from: kryystNo. The game is what it is. It may be to powerful for some GM's and Players to feel comfortable with. But for those that want that sort of gaming the Power Curve works well. It's some balance issues and mechanics that bug me. But the concept is solid.
What kryyst said. Every last word of it.
Quote from: James McMurrayWhat kryyst said. Every last word of it.
What James McMurray said. Etc.
For me? Yes! For other people? Obviously not!
-clash
Quote from: signoftheserpentIs the scale of the game (unbelievably powerful PC's) too powerful for its own good?
There's nothing wrong with the power level of the game as such, though that can be hard for an inexperienced GM to manage effectively.
The problem lies with the company and the fanboys trying to claim that Exalted isn't about power-gaming, when clearly it is.
RPGPundit
What Pundit said
Quote from: RPGPunditThe problem lies with the company and the fanboys trying to claim that Exalted isn't about power-gaming, when clearly it is.
RPGPundit
Especially that part.
i don't have a problem with the idea of uber powered pc's at all. Perhaps I should have added "for the game's own good".
Quote from: signoftheserpentIs the scale of the game (unbelievably powerful PC's) too powerful for its own good?
To my mind, that's kind of the core of the setting. Considering something, thinking it's beyond your character, doing it, then going, "Woah, we really are powerful...I wonder..."
Seanchai
Quote from: signoftheserpenti don't have a problem with the idea of uber powered pc's at all. Perhaps I should have added "for the game's own good".
Definitely not. The premise of the game is to play epic characters with the capacity to shake the world. In that at least it succeeds.
Now if the question had been "Is Exalted too mechanically
clunky for it's own good" then I'd be answering with a resounding "YES!"
Quote from: signoftheserpentIs the scale of the game (unbelievably powerful PC's) too powerful for its own good?
If you can run supers without a problem, you can probably do Exalted. I find the biggest problem is that with the default character generation, it's very easy for two players to make characters who are years apart in effectiveness. Now, if this is intentional (say, a free spirited jack of all trades next to a solemn sword saint), it's just a matter of the players and GMing realizing the characters are different in capability.
However, this can be a problem if one player intended their character to be competent in a field (often combat) and just didn't have the mechanical savy to do that.
Quote from: LeSquideIf you can run supers without a problem, you can probably do Exalted. I find the biggest problem is that with the default character generation, it's very easy for two players to make characters who are years apart in effectiveness. Now, if this is intentional (say, a free spirited jack of all trades next to a solemn sword saint), it's just a matter of the players and GMing realizing the characters are different in capability.
However, this can be a problem if one player intended their character to be competent in a field (often combat) and just didn't have the mechanical savy to do that.
Agreed, which is why in my initial statement I mentioned balance as being one of it's greatest flaws. I'm not even considering the munchkin potential in the game. Just for casual first time players it's very easy to have a very unbalanced group. I won't even mention the 1 up'smanship splats bring into the discussion.
But none of this is a fault of what exalted is presenting, it's the mechanical process of presenting that idea where some things start to break down. But never are the characters too powerful, they only can become too powerful with respect to each other in terms of balance.
At the range of power that PCs are expected to possess in actual play, no they are not too powerful. What commonly happens is that finding opposition that is not a pushover becomes difficult as PCs hit certain benchmarks, either because it becomes implausible to have that opposition appear (very experience Abyssals are typical examples; none existed before the Jade Prison broke, and there are only 100 of them--maximum--at any given time) or because nothing else works.
Exalted tends to ruin OTHER games because of it's power-level.
Many players in my experience have a hard time readjusting to say...D&D powered characters after playing Solar Exalted.
No. Artifacts are too powerful. It's the artifacts, not the Exalted themselves that cause problems. They are the cause of more PC imbalance than anything else you can imagine, and devalue the potency of many charms and abilities. If you strip out artifacts, then Exalted are powerful and cool enough to engage in awesome adventures, rescue the Sultan's daughter, and perform amazing feats of skill and prowess, whilst still able to be challenged. Plus they make cool things like swords made of Chiaroscuro crystal actually viable mechanically, rather than pretty but ultimately useless to any starting PC with their magic daiklave.
Quote from: DrewDefinitely not. The premise of the game is to play epic characters with the capacity to shake the world. In that at least it succeeds.
Now if the question had been "Is Exalted too mechanically clunky for it's own good" then I'd be answering with a resounding "YES!"
What he said.
Quote from: Illegible SmudgeNo. Artifacts are too powerful. It's the artifacts, not the Exalted themselves that cause problems. They are the cause of more PC imbalance than anything else you can imagine, and devalue the potency of many charms and abilities. If you strip out artifacts, then Exalted are powerful and cool enough to engage in awesome adventures, rescue the Sultan's daughter, and perform amazing feats of skill and prowess, whilst still able to be challenged. Plus they make cool things like swords made of Chiaroscuro crystal actually viable mechanically, rather than pretty but ultimately useless to any starting PC with their magic daiklave.
One of the things I've noticed is that some people honestly think that they'll be able to pick and choose their artifacts from the beginning, when in all the games I've ever been in, they're really conditional.
I hear stuff like, "get the hearthstone of 'X' to fill in for your need for 'Y', and pick up a pair of 'Z' weapons, or you're gimped". That feels a little different from saying that you want a Holy Avenger as a Paladin in D&D (the prototypical paladin sword that was practically a class ability in older games). I can understand the assumption that all the PCs get one or two cool magical artifacts (it's in-genre), but Creation isn't anymore of a magical Wal-Mart then D&D ought to be.
Less, even.
There's nothing in the rules that says that you can't do that with Artifacts and Hearthstones. That's why it happens, and why Artifacts are far more ubiquitous than the fluff indicates.
Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerThere's nothing in the rules that says that you can't do that with Artifacts and Hearthstones. That's why it happens, and why Artifacts are far more ubiquitous than the fluff indicates.
That and the artifact background. The possibilty of owning city-cracking artifacts and magitech is part of the character creation process. So it's hardly surprising when people advise one another on all the cool toys they think their characters should have, the rules explicitly support such ownership.
Let's also not forget that virtually every signature character has a weapon forged from one of the five magical materials, at the very least.
Quote from: signoftheserpentIs the scale of the game (unbelievably powerful PC's) too powerful for its own good?
The power level of Exalted characters is sometimes exaggerated.
A well-built starting group of Solars can be expected to be roughly as competent as a bunch of level 10 D&D characters. Poorly-built characters do more poorly.
Quote from: hgjsThe power level of Exalted characters is sometimes exaggerated.
Quoted for truth, except to add that it happens more than "sometimes."
Sure, I've been guilty of this myself, but the game's fans nearly
always overstate the power level, especially regarding starting characters. Even a Solar (the most powerful type) will have
maybe two or three awesome maneuvers available at start. The rest will be useful but relatively subtle. The
really outrageous stuff takes a while to grow into, often having high prerequisites. And by then the threat level is bound to be considerably higher, unless the PCs are just sitting around with their righteous thumbs up their holy asses. I mean, if you hit Essence 5 and aren't leading the armies of your new empire into battle against the Massed Forces of Darkness, then you're just not trying, are you? Time to stop beating up bandits and wandering around in caves and aim a little higher.
The main difference with respect to other games is that starting characters
do get access to some nifty stuff. But they still have to watch their backs, and there's plenty of room to grow.
Exalted is another great example of how to sell a superhero RPG through dressing it in the garb of one or more other genres, which--I suspect--is both why this works as well as why many obstensible superhero RPGs don't sell quite so well, both in absolute terms and in comparison to those that masquerade as something else.
Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerExalted is another great example of how to sell a superhero RPG through dressing it in the garb of one or more other genres, which--I suspect--is both why this works as well as why many obstensible superhero RPGs don't sell quite so well, both in absolute terms and in comparison to those that masquerade as something else.
Yes, that's all well and good; unfortunately I've been getting more than a passing suspicion that this is what will end up describing D&D4e too.
RPGPundit
How does that matter in an Exalted thread?
Exalted's power level rocks, unless you're looking for something easily managable, where you can quickly gauge an enemy's threat level in relation to the PCs.
It's also a system highly reliant on the players' ability to quickly come up with decent and non-repetitive descriptions of their actions. If you give two people the same character sheet, and one of them stunts frequently while the other just says "I attack," anyone who doesn;t know about the game will assume that the first character is much more powerful than the second, because he'll be rolling more dice and using his abilities more frequently.
Quote from: James McMurrayExalted's power level rocks, unless you're looking for something easily manageable, where you can quickly gauge an enemy's threat level in relation to the PCs.
The ability to quickly gauge an enemy's threat in relation to the PCs is nothing less than
competent game design. If this can't be done cold and stupid, then you fail at game design. This is one of the biggest flaws in
Exalted's design.
QuoteIt's also a system highly reliant on the players' ability to quickly come up with decent and non-repetitive descriptions of their actions. If you give two people the same character sheet, and one of them stunts frequently while the other just says "I attack," anyone who doesn't know about the game will assume that the first character is much more powerful than the second, because he'll be rolling more dice and using his abilities more frequently.
This is a self-correcting problem; either the lackluster player puts on his man pants and steps up his game to compete, or he wusses out and quits- making room for someone that can do it right.
Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerThis is a self-correcting problem; either the lackluster player puts on his man pants and steps up his game to compete, or he wusses out and quits- making room for someone that can do it right.
Or he keeps doing what he's doing and has fun at it. :)
One of the guys in my group rarely stunts. He'd rather get straight to the dice rolling and kick some ass that way. If he needs the motes / willpower / etc. back he'll do it, or if he needs the extra dice to hit, but normally it's just not his bag. It has nothing to do with being lackluster, and everything to do with knowing what parts of the game are fun for him, and striving to maximize those.
Quote from: signoftheserpentIs the scale of the game (unbelievably powerful PC's) too powerful for its own good?
No.
I can't say I have played Exalted although I worked on a game in which the power level could be an issue. I have found that motivations change when compared to a "low powered" game. INHO, when my group played, the concern were not over becoming even better but over others (PCs and NPCs). It's a similiar issue if your character is James Bond in a spy game or Indiana Jones in a game of exploration. The competency shields them from some risks (due to running out of basic resources, "wiffing", etc) but presents different problems (mostly more options, finding a purpose, etc.) Challenges become more like protect this group, help so and so survive, set up long term goals, etc.
In other words, different power levels have different perspectives, creating challenges for some and liberating others.