TheRPGSite

So, I haven't posted yet today because of an epic shitshow of a Twitter fight, where I've been busy taking on all comers from a gang of hipster-gamers.

The subject? What has prompted countless tweets? Is it Trump? The environment? Transgender rights?

Nope. It's that I had the audacity to suggest, on this thread (https://twitter.com/newbiedm/status/973644151408427008), that D&D Livestream Youtube Shows like "Critical Role" are not actually a lot like what you see in most real games; and the shit especially hit the fan when I dared to suggest that.. and I know this was crazy of me.. that people who watch these shows but don't game aren't actually gamers.

Here's what I said (https://twitter.com/KasimirUrbanski/status/973921303446073346):

"If they PLAY, they're #DnD gamers. If they just watch actors on a Youtube Reality-Show, they're not."


Well, you wouldn't believe the number of hipster gamer types who rushed forward howling in outrage that I would dare to suggest that people who never ever play D&D aren't actually D&D players. As if this wasn't so obvious it slides into tautology territory.

No, to them, it was incredibly offensive of me to say that if you've never played D&D even once you aren't actually a D&D gamer, no matter how many episodes of CriticalRole you've watched.

Note: I made it very clear, over and over again, that I wasn't 'gatekeeping' ANYONE who had actually played. I was saying, for the purposes of this argument, that if you've ever sat down and played an RPG even one single time I'll accept you're a gamer, but if you haven't ever, never ever, played an RPG, that makes you a NON-GAMER.  You know, because you haven't ever played.

For the whole glorious spectacle you'll need to check out the tweets & replies section (https://twitter.com/KasimirUrbanski/with_replies) of my Twitter account. Which, I don't know why, it seems you can only do if you're logged into Twitter (anyone know how to change that??).

But anyways, I've spent the whole day on this. It's been hilarious. I figured I'd get a fuckton of people pissed off when I pointed out that D&D YouTube shows are just that, shows. With paid actors and fake enthusiasm, and that they are not much like actually playing D&D, and they are almost destined to create a whole generation of disappointed players who think they should be getting the "look at the hipster-cool  nerd thing I'm doing!! OMG High-Five Wooo So Random" experience they see from the PAID ACTORS on shows like CriticalRole.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/criticalrole/images/f/fe/116CuriousBeginnings.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180122223258)
(yeah, no chance these guys are just a group of paid actors looking to make money and expand their careers by making prefab scenes and 80s nostalgia to milk rubes who think its all real)

I didn't figure I'd get a fuckton of people trying to claim that if you never played D&D in your life you are still a vital part of the "D&D Community" if you watch shows like Critical Role.  That watching the show makes you a gamer, even if you haven't ever played the game.

You know, like how if I were to go watch the new Paddington Bear movie, that would make me a reader.
Or British.
Or a tribesman from Darkest Peru.
Or, you know, a bear.

(https://pmcvariety.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/paddington-2.jpg?w=1000&h=563&crop=1)


Go on, howl about how intolerant I am by daring to say that every single fucking person who's ever played is a gamer but people who have NEVER played are not.

See this? This is the world you fucking millennials have created. Where you literally have people claiming I have no right to say SOMEONE WHO NEVER GAMED is not a gamer, if they "feel" like they are.

But fortunately, I'm the RPGPundit. And if someone actually has to be called a 'gatekeeper' for stating the moronically obvious to stop the slide into total 'up is down' relativism, I'll be glad to do it for all of you. So here goes:

I don't give a twopenny fuck about your (a)moral objections you fucking Swine.

People who do not play RPGs are not part of the RPG Community. PERIOD.

Fans of YouTube vaguely-D&D-themed Prefab Reality-Shows who have themselves never actually played D&D are NOT GAMERS. PERIOD.

See that? Gate, kept.


RPGPundit

Currently Smoking: Lorenzetti Volcano + Blue Boar

>>People who do not play RPGs are not part of the RPG Community. PERIOD.

Fans of YouTube vaguely-D&D-themed Prefab Reality-Shows who have themselves never actually played D&D are NOT GAMERS. PERIOD. <<

I don't believe there is such a thing as "the RPG community" - there are various online and other communities, but the vast majority of gamers are not part of them.

If you have not played an RPG you are not an RPG player, yup.

I guess there is a proviso - there are people who don't play RPGs who are part of vaguely-RPG-related communities. RPGnet is an obvious example, there is a community there, around their Tangency board especially, of people who don't play RPGs. I guess there's even an therpgsite community, and again it could include non-RPG-players - it certainly does include people who haven't gamed in a good while. I expect there is a community around the Critical Role show, which includes many non-gamers. Who are not gamers but who are part of a vaguely-RPG-related community.

I watched a bit of Matt Mercer GMing Vin Diesel and some other actors recently. In the bit I could sit through, the main difference I saw from eg my game was that Mercer talks so much - he also puts far more effort into cadence, but the big thing was he was telling people what they thought & felt, and it seemed almost like a multiple choice gamebook, the player input was so limited. It was almost a one man performance. I guess people who come to my table expecting that sort of one man show are going to be disappointed.

Quote from: S'mon;1029408I watched a bit of Matt Mercer GMing Vin Diesel and some other actors recently. In the bit I could sit through, the main difference I saw from eg my game was that Mercer talks so much - he also puts far more effort into cadence, but the big thing was he was telling people what they thought & felt, and it seemed almost like a multiple choice gamebook, the player input was so limited. It was almost a one man performance. I guess people who come to my table expecting that sort of one man show are going to be disappointed.

That one is a bit misleading for CR since Mercer only had Vin there for 30 minutes and had to run them through an adventure in that time. Their normal games are hours long and boring for me but he talks much less there.

I think there's a difference between the "d&d community" and "d&d players". The community is the entire constellation of people around the hobby. So you can be part of all the discussion without playing. But yeah you aren't a player then.

First of all, people who don't play games are not gamers. Any argument to the contrary is absurd. It would be like saying I'm a boxing champion because I've watched all the Rocky movies.

Furthermore, I can't stand Critical Role. People constantly talk over each other in a way that would be both disrespectful to the GM and also very difficult to manage in actual play. It is without question being put on in order to make an entertaining show that will generate ad revenue. I find it to have quite little to do with how an actual game is conducted in my experience.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029404People who do not play RPGs are not part of the RPG Community. PERIOD.

The wife of a gamer who volunteers to work the kitchen at an local RPG convention is a more vital part of the community than a shitty gamer who simply sits at a table and rolls some dice when told to.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029404But fortunately, I'm the RPGPundit. And if someone actually has to be called a 'gatekeeper' for stating the moronically obvious to stop the slide into total 'up is down' relativism, I'll be glad to do it for all of you.

Of that, no one could ever doubt.

What exactly are people getting "gatekept" out of? If you don't actually play games...nobody's stopping you from watching more YouTube videos and posting online about them from the lonely, isolated darkness of your room.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1029432What exactly are people getting "gatekept" out of? If you don't actually play games...nobody's stopping you from watching more YouTube videos and posting online about them from the lonely, isolated darkness of your room.

Gate keeping refers to making people feel welcomed in social media cool kid tables and giving them power.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029404See this? This is the world you fucking millennials have created. Where you literally have people claiming I have no right to say SOMEONE WHO NEVER GAMED is not a gamer, if they "feel" like they are.

That's the world you boomers created.

The biggest problem I see with this show is more people coming into the hobby thinking D&D is group storytelling. Sigh.

I watch Critical Role. I like it and look forward to watching it each week. I've also played RPGs since 1983. Yes, I am a gamer. I don't get to game much these days, for various reasons, so for me it's something fun to watch just for the entertainment aspect of it. I take it for what it is...a show.

It's certainly not a true representation of RPGing around the gaming table, at least not in my experience. If any of those people that watch the show, and have never played, think that's how it will be when they play, they're in for a rude awakening. There's too much 'drama', 'acting', and while Matt Mercer is a brilliant GM, imo, the game is too narrative and lenient toward the players. However, if you know any of the history of the group, you'd know that they are all actors/voice actors with a drama background, so their style of game is what you're seeing. They were also playing together as a group (playing Pathfinder) before the show Critical Role was even an idea. They were approached about playing their game in front of a camera and it took off from there. Sure, they embellish things more, because it's a show, but it is what it is. This new season is a bit grating though, now that they have WotC sponsoring them and pushing this D&D Beyond crap and there are more ads in their Youtube feed. It 'feels' more like a TV show now, sadly.

All that being said, the show has a lot of 'fanbois' out there. Anyone who's never played D&D (or any rpg for that matter), but watches the show, and calls themselves a gamer is just being an idiot. To think otherwise is ludicrous. It's a millennial thing to feel the need to cling to something so desperately that they think they are apart of it, even when they're not. It's insecurity.

Oh and that episode with Vin Diesel was horrible. He's supposedly a 'D&D player', but I question that. He was beyond terrible and not someone I'd want at my table.

From the Twitterstorm...

QuoteEvil Squeegee
Personally, I stream for a living. I happen to stream #DnD for a living. I also do paid DMing on the side.
I cast entertaining people as my players. I run my show, in which we play our campaign, like a show.

People who watch a show are an audience.

The word "community" has been bastardized into the current nonsense term of "everybody who likes a certain thing".

By the retardo definition, they are right.

But we should not use retardo definitions.

Gamer fans should be honest and call themselves gamer fans.

However, energy spent making sure people know they aren't real gamers could be better spent encouraging them to become real gamers, which would help the hobby much more than getting pissy about titles.

I think the mistake you are making is thinking that we live in an age of reason when we clearly do not.

The simple logic of gamer = person who plays games is as you say almost a tautology, however, people wrap their hobbies in to their identities now and, if a critical role fan has wrapped themselves in the label "gamer" they will be most peeved with someone saying "No you're not, you're a watcher."

This doesn't mean they are right, redefining the word gamer until it does the things you want it to do doesn't mean that I have to acknowledge the change of meaning.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1029445From the Twitterstorm...



People who watch a show are an audience.

The word "community" has been bastardized into the current nonsense term of "everybody who likes a certain thing".

By the retardo definition, they are right.

But we should not use retardo definitions.

This is because for anyone born after 1990, your identity is formed by shit you get from a Loot Crate, not your family or neighborhood. You know, a community.

Quote from: Manic Modron;1029446Gamer fans should be honest and call themselves gamer fans.

However, energy spent making sure people know they aren't real gamers could be better spent encouraging them to become real gamers, which would help the hobby much more than getting pissy about titles.

As much fun as it is watching insecure fellow Boomers and X-ers (on a site that pretty much defines itself as a matter of pride as being a back room where the old holdouts sit and smoke their cigars far away from the latest trends) lament that the 'cool kids table' is being taken over by people of a new generation they don't understand (even though that's, y'know, how growing old works), I think you are right.

Obviously, on a technical level, being a gamer ought to be defined by the act of gaming. Whether that should be expanded to also be a requirement to be part of the 'gaming community' is really an open question, but not really an interesting one. Regardless, we don't get a vote in the matter. Names and terms and community identification are matters of social consensus. This is no different than the historical wargamers that didn't want those damn fantasy wargamers to consider themselves part of the same group, or the wargamers who considered those RPG-players to be an unwanted subclan. Don't like being identified as part of the same tribe? Add your own flag, tag, or qualifier and convince enough people to use it until it sticks. It worked for OSR. Gatekeeping, OTOH, requires others to recognize an authority over others that no one here (or anywhere else in the greater TTRPG gravity well*) has ever been able to muster.
*A term I am now using to distinguish itself from 'the gaming community'

What might actually be fruitful is what you suggest--make the argument to these sideline fans that it would be far more rewarding for them, to be actually involved in game playing, thereby steering the future of gaming towards how we would prefer it to turn out.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1029448This is because for anyone born after 1990, your identity is formed by shit you get from a Loot Crate, not your family or neighborhood. You know, a community.

It's so awesome that these people are so willing to wrap their self worth up with billion dollar corporations. And for the low low price if $19.95 you too can get a pre faded t shirt to show that you're a "geek".

Quote from: Spinachcat;1029445From the Twitterstorm...



People who watch a show are an audience.

The word "community" has been bastardized into the current nonsense term of "everybody who likes a certain thing".

By the retardo definition, they are right.

But we should not use retardo definitions.

Fuck this dude. Now I want to watch his streams and point out how shitty he is as a DM.

Huh, so watching HarmonQuest made me a Pathfinder gamer.  Who knew?

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1029448This is because for anyone born after 1990, your identity is formed by shit you get from a Loot Crate, not your family or neighborhood. You know, a community.

That goes back to blaming the Baby Boomers for destroying said families and neighborhoods, making Millennials find something else to latch onto out of necessity.  But that's another discussion.

I think a big reason why that douche Sly Flourish doesn't want to piss off the streamers is purely financial and he's too much of a gutless wonder to admit it. He wants to sell product. Which is a great reason not to piss off people that hold a lot of cultural power and have a track record of using said power to try to ruin lives.

I'm a world class poker player because I watched an episode of the world poker championships while eating at a family restaurant because there were no real sports to broadcast on the sports channel.  How dare you question my poker playing skills!

Ah so this is a Badwrongfun problem with Millennials not doing things the way the geezers think it should be done. Oh well, once the geezers are gone, the cycle will continue.

Quote from: Krimson;1029466Ah so this is a Badwrongfun problem with Millennials not doing things the way the geezers think it should be done. Oh well, once the geezers are gone, the cycle will continue.

Are your meds off?  Because you're smarter than that.

Somebody who's never played games is not a gamer.  Somebody who's never fucked is a virgin.

Quote from: Pyromancer;1029414The wife of a gamer who volunteers to work the kitchen at an local RPG convention is a more vital part of the community than a shitty gamer who simply sits at a table and rolls some dice when told to.

Agreed.  Whey Pundy-poo crossed the line from "not a gamer" to "not part of the RPG community," he screwed the pooch.

The Gygax sisters don't game, but son of a bitch do they put in a lot of work at GaryCon.

It seems like 99% of the YouTube videos on any topic are schlock. I'd be shocked if there wasn't a lot of D&D reality show table garbage out there.

Quote from: S'mon;1029407I don't believe there is such a thing as "the RPG community" - there are various online and other communities, but the vast majority of gamers are not part of them.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1029445The word "community" has been bastardized into the current nonsense term of "everybody who likes a certain thing".

Pretty much this. There is no RPG community. Just as there's no hot-dog-eaters community or enjoys-curling-up-with-a-good-book community.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1029448This is because for anyone born after 1990, your identity is formed by shit you get from a Loot Crate, not your family or neighborhood. You know, a community.

What a sad and unhealthy state of affairs. That sense of belonging people used to get from family, friends, co-workers, and neighbours has been replaced by the superficial faux-community of entertainment fandom. I genuinely pity people who have 'Harry Potter fandom' in that part of their psyche where 'sense of belonging in a community' naturally rests. It's hard to imagine a more damning indictment of our society.

But there's also something less pitiable and more sinister about the mania for 'community' among so many younger nerds; it's a way to police social norms and bring dissenters from your value system into line. Whenever someone says "we need to talk about the problem our community has with[my pet political cause]", it's time to loosen the rhetorical holster and get ready for a throwdown. Soothing your own bereft alienation with an ersatz-community is one thing. Using appeals to that ersatz-community as an avenue to impose your values on strangers is another thing altogether. And sadly, wherever you see the former, the latter is sure to follow.

As a wayward Millennial myself, I am inclined to agree with Pundit and Gronan on this one.

If you don't play games, you're not a gamer. Period.

Now, you can be involved with the community (like the Gygax sisters who help out with GaryCon) but you're not a gamer if you don't play the game. That's just simple logic and reason.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029479Agreed.  Whey Pundy-poo crossed the line from "not a gamer" to "not part of the RPG community," he screwed the pooch.

The Gygax sisters don't game, but son of a bitch do they put in a lot of work at GaryCon.

Yup.

But, I agree watching a YouTube video does not make one part of the RPG community. Volunteering to help at a convention, taking your kids to the local game store to play games, getting your kids books, dice, mats, whatever, does.

What makes these people sad isn't what they watch, or why.

It's that they would care what someone says about them.  Pundit says they're not a gamer - so what?  Flip the bird and go back to what you want to do.  Whether he's right or not doesn't matter, and it's only their reaction that gives an opinion any power.

Quote from: Ulairi;1029489Yup.

But, I agree watching a YouTube video does not make one part of the RPG community. Volunteering to help at a convention, taking your kids to the local game store to play games, getting your kids books, dice, mats, whatever, does.

This guy gets it.

Ulairi, we may have our disagreements but when you're on the money, you're on the money.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1029491This guy gets it.

Ulairi, we may have our disagreements but when you're on the money, you're on the money.

I'm just waiting for you to turn into an old chunk of coal, move to the burbs, have 2.3 kids, a dog, and then you'll be able to join the BBQs on Saturday afternoon. ;)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029478Are your meds off?  Because you're smarter than that.

Somebody who's never played games is not a gamer.  Somebody who's never fucked is a virgin.

Does it really matter? I mean, you don't talk to them and they don't talk to you. Neither do I. It's as if they don't exist, so I don't see the problem here aside from the kind of problem of people having so much free time that they can worry about stupid shit.

Mind you, if I had meds I wouldn't be on internet forums talking about gaming. :D

Quote from: Krimson;1029495Does it really matter? I mean, you don't talk to them and they don't talk to you. Neither do I. It's as if they don't exist, so I don't see the problem here aside from the kind of problem of people having so much free time that they can worry about stupid shit.

Since I killed my social media accounts none of this stuff bothers me because unless it's on this site it doesn't get on my radar. So I think you're spot on with this.

Quote from: Krimson;1029495Does it really matter? I mean, you don't talk to them and they don't talk to you. Neither do I. It's as if they don't exist, so I don't see the problem here aside from the kind of problem of people having so much free time that they can worry about stupid shit.

Mind you, if I had meds I wouldn't be on internet forums talking about gaming. :D

Well, words mean things.  I happen to think that's important, because if words don't mean things, you get to the point of people insisting that "literally" no longer means "literally."  And at that point, what do those of us who use "literally" correctly use instead?

Quote from: Ulairi;1029497Since I killed my social media accounts none of this stuff bothers me because unless it's on this site it doesn't get on my radar. So I think you're spot on with this.

I have 18 Facebook friends. I purged people like Chris Pramas, Nicole Lindroos and even Jim Starlin who isn't even in gaming. Now I just have family and people who live in my city. I keep Facebook and Twitter active because when we had city wide flooding in 2013, they were very useful for getting information faster than media outlets. I could care less if people call themselves gamers. I mean the term is mostly for people who play video games anyway, despite all the moaning aging codgers might make.

So perhaps Millennial who watch videos are not part of the Grognard gaming community. They are part of a different community. Who cares? Go outside. Get some exercise. The internet magically stops being important for a while.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029498Well, words mean things.  I happen to think that's important, because if words don't mean things, you get to the point of people insisting that "literally" no longer means "literally."  And at that point, what do those of us who use "literally" correctly use instead?

Emoticons?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029498Well, words mean things.  I happen to think that's important, because if words don't mean things, you get to the point of people insisting that "literally" no longer means "literally."  And at that point, what do those of us who use "literally" correctly use instead?

There is more than one kind of gamer. I could care less if their choice is playing Apples to Apples while watching Youtube videos. My old D&D group pretty much just play video games now. If you do a search of gamer on Google, the top hits will be video game references. Language changes. English is a Creole language made from elements of Nordic, Gaelic and Latin based languages. Sure I can read Shakespeare, but no one has talked like that for centuries. Stuff changes.

Quote from: Ulairi;1029489Yup.

But, I agree watching a YouTube video does not make one part of the RPG community. Volunteering to help at a convention, taking your kids to the local game store to play games, getting your kids books, dice, mats, whatever, does.

Meh. 'The ____ Community' is so broad as to be useless anyways. Are people that watch Guy Fieri and Ace of Cakes but never themselves cook allowed to call themselves foodies (or 'the food community,' not that anyone uses that term)? Does it matter? Gamers needing to play games at least defines and action, so there's some reason for that to be important (although, in counterpoint, did any 'Trekker' ever actually trek?). But 'The ____ Community' to me just defines a fandom, nothing more. And policing who is allowed to call themselves a fan of something is a ridiculous notion, in my book.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1029503Meh. 'The ____ Community' is so broad as to be useless anyways. Are people that watch Guy Fieri and Ace of Cakes but never themselves cook allowed to call themselves foodies (or 'the food community,' not that anyone uses that term)? Does it matter? Gamers needing to play games at least defines and action, so there's some reason for that to be important (although, in counterpoint, did any 'Trekker' ever actually trek?). But 'The ____ Community' to me just defines a fandom, nothing more. And policing who is allowed to call themselves a fan of something is a ridiculous notion, in my book.

Identity politics is a strange thing.

Honestly if it gets more people into rpgs which as a hobby needs more new blood I can't see the harm in it.

Quote from: sureshot;1029506Honestly if it gets more people into rpgs which as a hobby needs more new blood I can't see the harm in it.

I'm fine if people decided to purchase and play role-playing games because they watched Critical Role or any other reality show on YouTube or Twitch or got into the games because they liked the Big Bang Theory, Stranger Things, ET, the old Dungeon & Dragons cartoon, the Lord of the Rings, the Hobbit, a Game of Thrones, or anything.

I used to care we had people that only discovered role-playing games coming into the hobby and telling folks that have been playing games for years or decades that we are racists, homophobic, exclusionary, etc when as far as I can tell, most gamers just want to have people to play with. However! Once I got off social media I never hear any of that noise. I think it's entirely a social media created problem and issue. At GaryCon last week I played games and had a blast and nonsense never came up. It was great.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1029503Meh. 'The ____ Community' is so broad as to be useless anyways. Are people that watch Guy Fieri and Ace of Cakes but never themselves cook allowed to call themselves foodies (or 'the food community,' not that anyone uses that term)? Does it matter? Gamers needing to play games at least defines and action, so there's some reason for that to be important (although, in counterpoint, did any 'Trekker' ever actually trek?). But 'The ____ Community' to me just defines a fandom, nothing more. And policing who is allowed to call themselves a fan of something is a ridiculous notion, in my book.

I collect baseball cards. I go to baseball card shows. Being a "baseball card community" isn't a thing. It's a hobby. Even on baseball card forums nobody is talking about "WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT HOW EVIL OUR COMMUNITY IS TO COLORED PEOPLE!!!" like what is happening in gaming or comicbooks right now. I don't imagine people that like to cook are having these conversations.

I'm completely cool with anybody wanting to call themselves a "gamer" (which I don't call myself) or saying they are in the RPG "community" because they like reality shows about gaming, that's fine. Just don't start trying to call the people that built the damn house racists or something because you just figured out that gaming was fun.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1029503Meh. 'The ____ Community' is so broad as to be useless anyways. Are people that watch Guy Fieri and Ace of Cakes but never themselves cook allowed to call themselves foodies (or 'the food community,' not that anyone uses that term)? Does it matter? Gamers needing to play games at least defines and action, so there's some reason for that to be important (although, in counterpoint, did any 'Trekker' ever actually trek?). But 'The ____ Community' to me just defines a fandom, nothing more. And policing who is allowed to call themselves a fan of something is a ridiculous notion, in my book.

Hmm.  But everybody who watches those guys may not cook, but they do eat.  Maybe they don't eat like that, but maybe they'd like to.

This probably proves something, but damned if I know what.

Quote from: Haffrung;1029485But there's also something less pitiable and more sinister about the mania for 'community' among so many younger nerds; it's a way to police social norms and bring dissenters from your value system into line. Whenever someone says "we need to talk about the problem our community has with[my pet political cause]", it's time to loosen the rhetorical holster and get ready for a throwdown.

This priceless considering this a thread is "we need to talk about the problem our community has with[swine/streaming]", like most of what Pundit has to say. Better get in line and condemn the streamers.

I'm still failing to appreciate the threat here. If actual gaming is more fun than watching streams, which I believe, why is Pundit concerned people who get into gaming through streaming are going to be disappointed? I'm playing/running in four groups at the moment.

It's notable that Pundit wrote so much in his OP, but didn't actually quote any of his opposition, as it is a pretty tame conversation. Some people suggest that fans are a part of the RPG community, much like how sci-fans are a part of the sci-fi community. That's about as crazy pants as anyone who disagreed with Pundit seems to be getting. Only a handful of people are even in the conversation. I think people are just bored with Pundit's trolling at this point.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029513Hmm.  But everybody who watches those guys may not cook, but they do eat.  Maybe they don't eat like that, but maybe they'd like to.

This probably proves something, but damned if I know what.

Perhaps that people can be interested in things they don't currently do? That's as much as I can glean from it.

Quote from: Baulderstone;1029514I'm still failing to appreciate the threat here.

That's my reaction to 90% of what happens on this board. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with anything someone says, I just don't believe we're really under any threat.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029479Agreed.  Whey Pundy-poo crossed the line from "not a gamer" to "not part of the RPG community," he screwed the pooch.

The Gygax sisters don't game, but son of a bitch do they put in a lot of work at GaryCon.

They both played D&D in the past too, no?  Was it Elise who was one of the original playtesters?  Something about a cleric and a giant centipede?  

Not arguing your point.  Running a RPG convention is very much 'part of the community'.

I'm missing something. I was ready to pick up my pitch fork and follow Pundit but I read the twitter feed...

It seems the original Twitter post was created by a guy that whole heartily agrees with Pundit.

There seems to be one idiot: "Gr*nt Ell*s" Fill in the vowels. One idiot does not a "Shit Storm" make. Or did I miss something and this spilled over to other forums?

Quote from: Ulairi;1029507Once I got off social media I never hear any of that noise.

Social media certainly seems to bring out the worst in people! This can sometimes spill into the real world - but usually it doesn't.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1029521I'm missing something. I was ready to pick up my pitch fork and follow Pundit but I read the twitter feed...

It seems the original Twitter post was created by a guy that whole heartily agrees with Pundit.

There seems to be one idiot: "Gr*nt Ell*s" Fill in the vowels. One idiot does not a "Shit Storm" make. Or did I miss something and this spilled over to other forums?

That's my impression. The other guys all seemed surprisingly reasonable to me. But I can't login to twitter so maybe I missed the True Horror.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1029521I'm missing something. I was ready to pick up my pitch fork and follow Pundit but I read the twitter feed...

It seems the original Twitter post was created by a guy that whole heartily agrees with Pundit.

There seems to be one idiot: "Gr*nt Ell*s" Fill in the vowels. One idiot does not a "Shit Storm" make. Or did I miss something and this spilled over to other forums?

Something about molehills and mountains I am guessing. :D

A tempest in a pee pot.

Threat? Horror?  Might be more than one person overreacting.

What I saw was complaining about people who think watching videos of people gaming makes one a gamer.
These are the same narcissistic idiots who think hashtags equal legislation and will film someone in trouble before thinking about stopping to help.

Also, you know the gatekeeping part was tongue in cheek, right?

Can't speak for anybody else, but yes, I knew.  And watching videos of games doesn't make you a gamer because words mean things.

Other than that this has mostly been an amusing piss take.

I don't have the sense that there are large numbers of people asking to be called gamers who only watch streams, but if we are going to quibble over terms, Gaming or RPG Enthusiasts is probably the way to go for someone who watches games or reads them but isn't playing them. Still, I am not particularly concerns about who gets called a gamer and who doesn't. A lot of them are probably potential players though. I'd imagine a solid chunk of people who came to the hobby by watching streams, would at least have a curiosity about jumping in and giving it a try. I think we should approach streaming like any other cultural moment where the potential to grow the hobby or have a boom is there. Eventually things will probably settle down again like they always do, but this is a good opportunity to share the hobby with people who are suddenly taking notice of it.

You can be a gaming fan without playing games, just like you can be a football fan without playing football.  Nothing wrong with that.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1029531Threat? Horror?  Might be more than one person overreacting.

What I saw was complaining about people who think watching videos of people gaming makes one a gamer.
These are the same narcissistic idiots who think hashtags equal legislation and will film someone in trouble before thinking about stopping to help.

Also, you know the gatekeeping part was tongue in cheek, right?

Well I didn't figure people that "identify as gamers" was going to be the new front in the SJW wars featured on Tucker Carlson tonight but I do feel like I was teased by Pundit.

Even my wife knows not to do that on my testorone injection days.

I had been listening to Steven Crowder's "There are only 2 genders; change my mind" and was primed for a fight.

Can I get a "I got Blue Balled by The RPG Pundit" T-shirt?

Hypothetical:

I was always interested in fantasy and got into painting fantasy miniatures because I did not have room for model trains.

I had many of the D&D books for painting reference and even rolled/statted out characters and monsters I painted. But did not have an opportunity to play.

Was I a gamer?

Fair honest question. Give your opinion.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1029540Hypothetical:

I was always interested in fantasy and got into painting fantasy miniatures because I did not have room for model trains.

I had many of the D&D books for painting reference and even rolled/statted out characters and monsters I painted. But did not have an opportunity to play.

Was I a gamer?

Fair honest question. Give your opinion.

If you read a bunch of fishing magazines, bought a bunch of equipment, made your own lures and never went fishing, are you a fisherman?

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1029540Hypothetical:

I was always interested in fantasy and got into painting fantasy miniatures because I did not have room for model trains.

I had many of the D&D books for painting reference and even rolled/statted out characters and monsters I painted. But did not have an opportunity to play.

Was I a gamer?

Fair honest question. Give your opinion.

If you wanted to play but couldn't, I'd call you a "frustrated gamer."

In model railroading, somebody who buys and reads the magazines but doesn't do any modeling is called an "armchair modeler."

No reason somebody couldn't be an "armchair gamer," I suppose.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1029540Hypothetical:

I was always interested in fantasy and got into painting fantasy miniatures because I did not have room for model trains.

I had many of the D&D books for painting reference and even rolled/statted out characters and monsters I painted. But did not have an opportunity to play.

Was I a gamer?

Fair honest question. Give your opinion.

I should point out I never wanted to be called a "gamer". I didn't know that term existed. And I worry about people so desperately want to be part of such an esoteric box.

The point  I am asking, how much of a hobby do you have to participate in to be part of the hobby?

Again, no dog in the fight. I just don't know how to start a thread with a fancy poll.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029543In model railroading, somebody who buys and reads the magazines but doesn't do any modeling is called an "armchair modeler."

No reason somebody couldn't be an "armchair gamer," I suppose.

Fair enough. But isn't "arm chair" a derogatory term?  Like arm chair quarterback?

Technically there were probably a few years where I was both an arm chair gamer and modeler. I gave up the modelling (trains) and found a game.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1029541If you read a bunch of fishing magazines, bought a bunch of equipment, made your own lures and never went fishing, are you a fisherman?

The question is being conflated. Do you have to be a gamer to be part of the "d&d community"? Note I didn't say d&d gamer community. Or are they the same?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1029547The question is being conflated. Do you have to be a gamer to be part of the "d&d community"?

There is no D&D community. And even if there was, passive watching of media wouldn't make you part of it. :p

I do think one could somewhat reasonably talk of a "therpgsite community" or a "dragonsfoot community" etc - but it can only include people who interact with those communities on the relevant bulletin board, probably somewhat regularly and with a non-hostile stance towards most of the other posters. Browsing a bulletin board can't make you part of that community.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029543No reason somebody couldn't be an "armchair gamer," I suppose.

   *Whistles innocently*

  Ironically, after I adopted the handle, I started gaming semi-regularly again. In fact, I was supposed to have a 5E game on Sunday, but it fell through. :)

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1029546Fair enough. But isn't "arm chair" a derogatory term?  Like arm chair quarterback?

Technically there were probably a few years where I was both an arm chair gamer and modeler. I gave up the modelling (trains) and found a game.

In model railroading at least it often applies to apartment dwellers or people with mobility/motor skills/arthritis issues (old guys who can't do it any more.)

Quote from: CRKrueger;1029531Threat? Horror?  Might be more than one person overreacting.

What I saw was complaining about people who think watching videos of people gaming makes one a gamer.
These are the same narcissistic idiots who think hashtags equal legislation and will film someone in trouble before thinking about stopping to help.

Looking through the Twitter conversation, I saw Pundit railing about those people, but I didn't actually see any people that don't play RPGs arguing that they were gamers.

The comment that Pundit is replying to in his Tweet that he quoted in his OP is this: "This took me a bit to get but I get it now. I think a lot of us grognardy types felt like all those watchers should be playing but that isn't really true. They can if they want and if they have the means but they can be part of the community just by watching."

From that comment of an actual rolelplaying grognard grudgingly admitting that people that enjoy watching streams are a part of the scene, Pundit invented some mass of non-gamers demanding to be called gamers.

You say "These are the narcissistic idiots", but who are they? Is there actually even one person out there that is real that meets this defintiion? I didn't see any in Pundit's links.

Pundit often is tilting at windmills.

Quote from: S'mon;1029548There is no D&D community. And even if there was, passive watching of media wouldn't make you part of it. :p

I do think one could somewhat reasonably talk of a "therpgsite community" or a "dragonsfoot community" etc - but it can only include people who interact with those communities on the relevant bulletin board, probably somewhat regularly and with a non-hostile stance towards most of the other posters. Browsing a bulletin board can't make you part of that community.

I disagree; I think any group of people with similar interests is a community. It's a very broad group. I don't really get why it wouldn't include all sorts of people, like those who don't get a chance to play but just read the adventure modules.

Quote from: Baulderstone;1029559Looking through the Twitter conversation, I saw Pundit railing about those people, but I didn't actually see any people that don't play RPGs arguing that they were gamers.

The comment that Pundit is replying to in his Tweet that he quoted in his OP is this: "This took me a bit to get but I get it now. I think a lot of us grognardy types felt like all those watchers should be playing but that isn't really true. They can if they want and if they have the means but they can be part of the community just by watching."

From that comment of an actual rolelplaying grognard grudgingly admitting that people that enjoy watching streams are a part of the scene, Pundit invented some mass of non-gamers demanding to be called gamers.

You say "These are the narcissistic idiots", but who are they? Is there actually even one person out there that is real that meets this defintiion? I didn't see any in Pundit's links.

The 'idiots' are the stereotypical millennials Pundit is getting off his lawn with his 'gatekeeping'.  He said you have log on to Twitter to read the exchange so I didn't.

You want to say the exchange isn't the way he describes it, that's one thing.  Claiming he's talking about a 'threat' is something else.

Mercer takes flak from a lot of people that his professionally written, produced, voiced and acted RPG sessions aren't getting people into the GM chair like Colville does, but are intimidating them out of the GM chair.  That charge was a thing long before Pundit started talking about tabletop streams.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029404People who do not play RPGs are not part of the RPG Community. PERIOD.

Incorrect. There are quite a few people in the support areas that have never actually played any. Crafters, artists, sculptors, writers and so on. Even shop owners. These are all a part of the gaming community without actually playing.

Also. If someone watches a gameplay video or reads a replay, etc and that inspires them to at least want to play too then they have been drawn into the gaming community and may some day even participate in actual play.

But there are people who just watch to be entertained. They have no interest in actual gaming. Same as someone watching Record of Lodoss war. They might never be inspired to get into RPGs while someone else will get fired up to try it. You do not want to turn away those who have been inspired.

Apparently "community" has a completely different definition than I thought, one that requires no interaction. Is this a new thing? :confused:

Quote from: S'mon;1029597Apparently "community" has a completely different definition than I thought, one that requires no interaction. Is this a new thing? :confused:

Yes. With the seculaization of society and the breakdown of the family people no longer have a real community to belong so they look to find it from billion dollar corporations. We used to be called "customers". It also helps the billion dollar corporations play that they are just in it for the money because they have a "community" it's not about money! It's about the "community"

A "community" in the 21st century is just a group of people who all bought the same Chinese-made toys with some corporate brand on them. (Any other definition is non-inclusive.)

Quote from: Pyromancer;1029414The wife of a gamer who volunteers to work the kitchen at an local RPG convention is a more vital part of the community than a shitty gamer who simply sits at a table and rolls some dice when told to.

by that logic, so is the janitor who has no idea what RPGs are but mops the floor before the game starts.

You can thank people for their support without them actually being part of the RPG hobby.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1029438That's the world you boomers created.

I'm not a boomer, thank god. I'm GenX, the only good generation since WWII.

The mental distinction I've been using for years, without even fully realizing it, is:

  "Community"--A group of people who engage with each other.
  "Fanbase"--A group of people who enjoy something.

  The two often overlap, but are not the same thing. I'm a part of numerous fanbases without being part of the associated communities, and RPGNet is arguably a community that's become more about the community itself than the fanbase that formed it.

  Just my two cents.

Quote from: Baulderstone;1029514This priceless considering this a thread is "we need to talk about the problem our community has with[swine/streaming]", like most of what Pundit has to say. Better get in line and condemn the streamers.

I'm still failing to appreciate the threat here. If actual gaming is more fun than watching streams, which I believe, why is Pundit concerned people who get into gaming through streaming are going to be disappointed? I'm playing/running in four groups at the moment.

It's notable that Pundit wrote so much in his OP, but didn't actually quote any of his opposition, as it is a pretty tame conversation. Some people suggest that fans are a part of the RPG community, much like how sci-fans are a part of the sci-fi community. That's about as crazy pants as anyone who disagreed with Pundit seems to be getting. Only a handful of people are even in the conversation. I think people are just bored with Pundit's trolling at this point.

Really, so I guess you missed the parts where people were threatening to bombard all my products with negative ratings, or the guy who tried to doxx me and thought I was actually Dominique Crouzet.  Or, you know, the fact that I've been getting attack-mentions every few seconds for the last 16 hours.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1029521I'm missing something. I was ready to pick up my pitch fork and follow Pundit but I read the twitter feed...

It seems the original Twitter post was created by a guy that whole heartily agrees with Pundit.

There seems to be one idiot: "Gr*nt Ell*s" Fill in the vowels. One idiot does not a "Shit Storm" make. Or did I miss something and this spilled over to other forums?

It spilled over everywhere. I've had literally thousands of notifications in the last 24 hours. Chris Perkins made a snarky remark. Mike Mearls made a milquetoast comment about inclusion.

Continuing the RPGPundit Shitstorm of 2018


So, yesterday I literally didn't have time to blog, because I was responding to twitter outrage for the ENTIRE DAY.

It's still going on. So really, if you want to see it all, check out my tweets & replies  (https://twitter.com/KasimirUrbanski/with_replies)on my Twitter account, or search twitter for it.

It's been hilariously fun.  Crushing their posts based on 'feelings' with my rational argument and mockery.

Plus made some interesting new friends, and had some very interesting conversations.

The funniest part was when Chris Perkins said he "never saw anything I wrote".

That's totally true, actually, as far as I recall. See, I never worked with Chris Perkins.

I worked with HIS BOSS, Mike Mearls. That is to say, above him. I have hundreds of emails dated 2012-2014 of Mike and I talking about all kinds of things (including some things I bet Mike wouldn't want to me to mention in this current climate). I would talk to him, and then Mike (I presume) would write to Perkins about what to do.

Anyways, keep checking it out. Back to the trenches for me.


RPGPundit

Currently Smoking: Brigham Anniversary Pipe + Peterson's Wild Atlantic

Pundit,

Why do you get so involved with this twitter nonsense? What do you gain from it?

I do think Jeremy Crawford is being disingenuous with his Tweets. He knows who you are. He knows you helped with 5E. Tweeting that is trying to give the impression that you had nothing to do with 5E when it's a flat out lie and you're acknowledged in the books.  

Again: social media isn't healthy and it's a very small audience all shouting at or patting each other on the back.

EDIT: Pundit, I agree that if somebody doesn't play pen and paper roleplaying games and has no interest in playing they really aren't members of the pen and paper RPG 'community'. However! I think being antagonizing towards them doesn't help nurture them into consumers and players of these games. In the world there are red cherries, green cherries, and pits. Red cherries actually play the games. Green cherries are people that don't play but can be cultivated to become red cherries, and pits are people that have no interest and need to be thrown out. I saw somebody tweet at you that they don't like playing but they like talking about the games. They are not in the gaming 'community'. They know what the games are, have the opportunity to play, and have decided they don't like the actual games.

But, I think there are people, because so many people keep saying they know or were, folks that have interest and gain more interest because they watched things on YouTube or Twitch. I actually think it makes sense for gaming companies to advertise on these reality shows to try to get people who are green cherries to become red cherries.

But, I think folks that get all high and mighty about how active they are on the social media 'gaming community' to turn it down because I think  the best way to grow the community is to show up at local game shops, conventions, etc and run games and offer people that stop by and watch a chance to sit down and play. If somebody runs a game online and they see somebody posting about it on the youtube forum or whatever, to offer them a chance to "connect" and play with you.

I also think the rpg 'community' on social media are trying to make becoming a referee to seem like a bigger and more complicated deal than it actually is. One of the things I liked about Matt Colville's YouTube channel is that his "running the game" series does away with the notion that buying D&D and getting to an adventure and playing isn't that difficult. He walked folks through creating a simple dungeon and showing how easy it is to have a dungeon and play the game. Kind of like what are grognards did when we started playing. Spend more time showing people how fun these games are and how easy they are to play and have fun with.

Nobody talks about a Monopoly 'community' but I'd be willing to bet it's the most successful board game of all time. Nobody would say that somebody that likes to watch chess on YouTube but has no interest in playing it is a member of the 'chess community'. Anybody can play chess. I hate that we are starting to treat gaming like professional sports. There is a reason millions of people go to the ball park each and every year to watch a ball game. Many of us would LOVE to be professional ball players but very few of us can actually throw a 90 mph fastball or hit said fastball. The only way for us to participate is to watch the ball game. Anybody can play D&D. And as long as people are having fun they are playing D&D correctly.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029634It spilled over everywhere. I've had literally thousands of notifications in the last 24 hours. Chris Perkins made a snarky remark. Mike Mearls made a milquetoast comment about inclusion.

I don't have a Twitter account and I'm still pretty opposed to getting one.

The only thing I could see is what was in the immediate link you posted.

But I will take your word for it that the SJW brigade has not packed up and wondered back into the wilderness.

Spent an entire day arguing on Twitter, eh? Alrighty then.

Quote from: Ulairi;1029636Pundit,

Why do you get so involved with this twitter nonsense? What do you gain from it?

Quote from: Krimson;1029652Spent an entire day arguing on Twitter, eh? Alrighty then.

A day spent writing how to summon angels via the Key of Solomon for DA/L&D would have been much more productive.

They reason why people like Adam Koebel  want to  jam door jammed wide open to anyone who self identifies as a gamer, is the same reason the left are so fond of mass illegal immigration.

Quote from: Ulairi;1029642I do think Jeremy Crawford is being disingenuous with his Tweets. He knows who you are. He knows you helped with 5E. Tweeting that is trying to give the impression that you had nothing to do with 5E when it's a flat out lie and you're acknowledged in the books.

Crawford's just getting back at Pundit for all the Blue Rose stuff.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029635It's been hilariously fun.  Crushing their posts based on 'feelings' with my rational argument and mockery.

Anyone with a twitter presence want to confirm that that's how it is going? Mind you, I'm not suggesting it, just asking.

Quote from: Krimson;1029652Spent an entire day arguing on Twitter, eh? Alrighty then.

Yep.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1029439The biggest problem I see with this show is more people coming into the hobby thinking D&D is group storytelling. Sigh.

That is one problem. But you get that all over so YMMV. Or someone thinking you have to do funny voices. Or ham it up. Or any other misconceptions.

But you can get the exact same thing just sitting in on a session at a store, convention or friends house. Big difference is that a video will reach alot more people.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1029656A day spent writing how to summon angels via the Key of Solomon for DA/L&D would have been much more productive.

Cleaning a bathroom is more productive than arguing on Twitter. :D

Quote from: Krimson;1029671Cleaning a bathroom is more productive than arguing on Twitter. :D

A nice juicy fart is more productive than arguing on Twitter.

* FRAAAAAPPPPPBBBFFFFTTT! *

....aaahhhhhhh

Quote from: Ulairi;1029642Nobody would say that somebody that likes to watch chess on YouTube but has no interest in playing it is a member of the 'chess community'.

I love watching Chess on YouTube, but I don't play.

QuoteOne night in Greyhawk and the world's your oyster...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgc_LRjlbTU

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029735A nice juicy fart is more productive than arguing on Twitter.

* FRAAAAAPPPPPBBBFFFFTTT! *

....aaahhhhhhh

I think I would rank them about the same. :D Though as someone with an IBD, clearing gas from the bowels has the side effect of increasing work productivity.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029498And at that point, what do those of us who use "literally" correctly use instead?

A time machine?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029528A tempest in a pee pot.

LoL!

I'm not a fan of the discussion. It appears to be a deliberate effort to stoke a fight over semantics, to an end that I don't see the benefit of.

"Yes [Pundit], you were right, [we] were wrong. Now that you have won, please explain how this victory has improved the hobby?"

It's fantastic when new people are brought into the hobby, whatever the route, of which there are a huge amount, and an ever-increasing amount. TV, the upcoming movie, Facebook, MeetUp, Twitch, and doubtless more.

The more the merrier I say. Some will play, some will not. Some will get hooked, some will not.

My only duty to the hobby is to give everyone the best width of exposure and experience with that exposure that I can. If they end up playing D&D, or Pathfinder, or DitV, WtM, or L&D....or just watching YouTube videos of Actual Play....I'm fine with all of that.

A vibrant hobby benefits me, and I don't care what their level of involvement is.

I don't see how people engaging in the hobby by watching others play is at all wrong. Maybe folks love the idea of RPGs, but can't find a group nearby. Maybe they have social anxiety issues, and have trouble actually playing with others. Or maybe they think it's neat, but aren't so into it that they want to actually find a group. Maybe they -want- to play, but fear that the asshole gatekeepers of the hobby will hassle them for "doing it wrong", so they watch videos to learn how.

Who cares? Seriously, get over it. Different people like different things.

Quote from: Motorskills;1029844"Yes [Pundit], you were right, [we] were wrong. Now that you have won, please explain how this victory has improved the hobby?"

Maybe we should just all collectively agree that the Pundit has "won" at RPGs, and nobody's better than him, and he'll finally go away.

Quote from: Herne's Son;1029872Maybe we should just all collectively agree that the Pundit has "won" at RPGs, and nobody's better than him, and he'll finally go away.

  I doubt he'll go away until he gets to design D&D 6E, the world's first Double OSR game--Old School Renaissance, Overtly Satanic Religion. :D

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029633Really, so I guess you missed the parts where people were threatening to bombard all my products with negative ratings, or the guy who tried to doxx me and thought I was actually Dominique Crouzet.  Or, you know, the fact that I've been getting attack-mentions every few seconds for the last 16 hours.

Please post these in the thread. Many of us don't/won't have Twitter.

Also, if someone doxx's you REPORT THEM. That shit needs dickstomping.

If you don't, the doxxing scum become more emboldened.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029634It spilled over everywhere. I've had literally thousands of notifications in the last 24 hours. Chris Perkins made a snarky remark. Mike Mearls made a milquetoast comment about inclusion.

Post these too!!

Quote from: Ulairi;1029636Why do you get so involved with this twitter nonsense? What do you gain from it?

He apparently has a great fun.

Pundy did a post about this last year. He doesn't enjoy video games so Twitter is his electronic game hobby.

I don't get it, but millions of people apparently love watching Twitch, eSports, D&D, etc and I don't get that either.

Quote from: waltshumate;1029657They reason why people like Adam Koebel  want to  jam door jammed wide open to anyone who self identifies as a gamer, is the same reason the left are so fond of mass illegal immigration.

We're gonna get gamers to do cheap labor? Extra votes for ENnies?

There is nothing nefarious about why they want a "D&D community" to mean anyone who's heard of the game. WotC clowns wants to claim big numbers to impress Hasbro (aka, keep their jobs in the inevitable annual purge). YouTubers want more views and porn fluffing their viewers results in more views. Not only are viewers D&D gamers, they're the very best gamers!!!

Quote from: Herne's Son;1029871I don't see how people engaging in the hobby by watching others play is at all wrong.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

But words have meanings and "community" means something different than "customer" or "audience member".

I am a fan of 40k. I do not play the current edition, nor have I bought any of the new figs. I am a member of the Oldhammer community because I play out of print GW games like Necromunda, Mordheim, etc. I am a GM customer of their novels and a fan of some of their authors. These are distinctions.

Quote from: Herne's Son;1029871Maybe folks love the idea of RPGs, but can't find a group nearby.

There are plenty of resources available for them, including Skype gaming.

Quote from: Herne's Son;1029871Maybe they have social anxiety issues, and have trouble actually playing with others.

LOL. Those WERE many of the gamers in the 80s!!!

Also, fuck them. "Social anxiety" is a 21st century bullshit. In every other generation, shy people got on with their lives like everyone else and got laid with beer.

Quote from: Herne's Son;1029871Maybe they -want- to play, but fear that the asshole gatekeepers of the hobby will hassle them for "doing it wrong", so they watch videos to learn how.

Nothing can save them from the Gatekeepers!!!!

Muhahaha!

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1029873I doubt he'll go away until he gets to design D&D 6E, the world's first Double OSR game--Old School Renaissance, Overtly Satanic Religion. :D

Didn't Venger Satanis already write that one?
https://www.amazon.com/Liberation-Demon-Slayer-Venger-Satanis/dp/1492813230

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029623by that logic, so is the janitor who has no idea what RPGs are but mops the floor before the game starts.

You can thank people for their support without them actually being part of the RPG hobby.

It's so crazy dude; here I've been, gaming and enjoying the hobby for years. And all this time, it was up to your personal recognition of my "identity as a gamer" that I could be an actual part of the real hobby. Who knew you did me such violence?

Oh wait, no. There's not a fucking tower, anyone can call themselves a gamer for any reason and nobody cares.

Huh. It's almost like these people need constant recognition and reinforcement of their own identity or something.

Quote from: Motorskills;1029844I'm not a fan of the discussion. It appears to be a deliberate effort to stoke a fight over semantics, to an end that I don't see the benefit of.

"Yes [Pundit], you were right, [we] were wrong. Now that you have won, please explain how this victory has improved the hobby?"

It's fantastic when new people are brought into the hobby, whatever the route, of which there are a huge amount, and an ever-increasing amount. TV, the upcoming movie, Facebook, MeetUp, Twitch, and doubtless more.

Are they being brought into the hobby or they being invited in to be weaponized when needed, such as now. How many of those posting negative reviews are the people who never played an rpg in their lives and have been goaded into action by those holding the door open for them. Also they make money when the rulebook cuddlers subscribe to their streams.

I enjoy watching football, but I am not a football player just because I am sitting on my couch clutching my ball, while watching.

Quote from: waltshumate;1029997Are they being brought into the hobby or they being invited in to be weaponized when needed, such as now. How many of those posting negative reviews are the people who never played an rpg in their lives and have been goaded into action by those holding the door open for them. Also they make money when the rulebook cuddlers subscribe to their streams.

I enjoy watching football, but I am not a football player just because I am sitting on my couch clutching my ball, while watching.

You support the NFL/EPL by watching football, directly financially, and indirectly by gushing about it with your friends.

The same is true for people that watch live streams (etc).

No idea WTF this "weaponizing" stuff is about.

Pundit is once again throwing turdbombs for the fun of it, and unfortunately some folks out there are rising to his bait.

Quote from: Motorskills;1030071You support the NFL/EPL by watching football, directly financially, and indirectly by gushing about it with your frienait.

But I am not a football player and nor are those that only watch streams and do not play gamers.  Which  bit of that idea do you inclusion fascists have a comprehesion problem with?

By your logic those who cannot drive and never want to learn how to drive but sit in taxis or ride the bus can call be called drivers.

I think I will go watch a couple of episodes of The Great British Bake Off, then I will be a baker, yippee.

Watching football doesn't make you a football player,
watching RPGs doesn't make you a gamer.

/thread

I was at the Breakout gaming con in Toronto this weekend. One of the events was a speed-gaming thing, with players spending an hour testing games before moving onto the next table. Two of the players I had, young adults of about 18-19, had never played an RPG before but had watched lots of YouTube and Twitch shows, and listened to podcasts. They were encouraged to come to the con and take part for themselves. They has a blast in the short Mythras sessionI ran for them with pre-gen PCs and stayed on at my table for an extra half hour to finish their game. They had a really good time, but, most importantly, grasped the rules and how RPGs are played incredibly quickly, and got straight into the action.

Lesson I get from this is that watching live plays on YouTube and Twitch can act as the impetus to get more fully involved. I thoroughly enjoyed GMing for them, and if these broadcasts encourage more people - especially young people - to actively play, then they're doing their job.

Quote from: Motorskills;1030071You support the NFL/EPL by watching football, directly financially, and indirectly by gushing about it with your friends.

The same is true for people that watch live streams (etc).

No idea WTF this "weaponizing" stuff is about.

Pundit is once again throwing turdbombs for the fun of it, and unfortunately some folks out there are rising to his bait.

People watch the NFL because they are never going to be able to play in the NFL. I cannot play for the Oakland A's, if they'd let me, I'd do it. Anybody can play D&D.

Deleting! Lol

Quote from: Ulairi;1030156Anybody can play D&D.

  Although most people are best off doing it with friends and not talking about it online so they don't get ripped to shreds for being told they're being too linear, too lethal, not progressive enough, not old school enough, etc. :)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1030171Although most people are best off doing it with friends and not talking about it online so they don't get ripped to shreds for being told they're being too linear, too lethal, not progressive enough, not old school enough, etc. :)

Most people are offline and not talking about it online. I read a fact that WoTC said something like almost 9,000,000 people played D&D last year. Very few of those people post about it or talk about it online. Very few of those people actually watch streaming games. Streams get millions of "views" but they aren't getting millions of people watching.

Quote from: Ulairi;1030172Most people are offline and not talking about it online. I read a fact that WoTC said something like almost 9,000,000 people played D&D last year. Very few of those people post about it or talk about it online. Very few of those people actually watch streaming games. Streams get millions of "views" but they aren't getting millions of people watching.

I wonder how they arrived at that number.

Quote from: waltshumate;1030105But I am not a football player and nor are those that only watch streams and do not play gamers.  Which  bit of that idea do you inclusion fascists have a comprehesion problem with?

By your logic those who cannot drive and never want to learn how to drive but sit in taxis or ride the bus can call be called drivers.

I think I will go watch a couple of episodes of The Great British Bake Off, then I will be a baker, yippee.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1030109Watching football doesn't make you a football player,
watching RPGs doesn't make you a gamer.

/thread

You guys are what is wrong with our hobby. "Inclusion fascists", wtf are you even on about?

Edit: to be clear, it is harmful to our hobby to pit people against each other by stirring up unnecessary shit. Gaming - in all its wondrous forms - is supposed to be fun, not a vocabulary competition. Except for Scrabble, maybe. ;) .

Quote from: Loz;1030152I was at the Breakout gaming con in Toronto this weekend. One of the events was a speed-gaming thing, with players spending an hour testing games before moving onto the next table. Two of the players I had, young adults of about 18-19, had never played an RPG before but had watched lots of YouTube and Twitch shows, and listened to podcasts. They were encouraged to come to the con and take part for themselves. They has a blast in the short Mythras sessionI ran for them with pre-gen PCs and stayed on at my table for an extra half hour to finish their game. They had a really good time, but, most importantly, grasped the rules and how RPGs are played incredibly quickly, and got straight into the action.

Lesson I get from this is that watching live plays on YouTube and Twitch can act as the impetus to get more fully involved. I thoroughly enjoyed GMing for them, and if these broadcasts encourage more people - especially young people - to actively play, then they're doing their job.

Exactly Loz, that's fantastic. Presumably they gushed about their fun time watching a stream to someone that suggested that they go to Breakout, and they had a great time.

Could be they will go away, gush to some other non-gamers, and explain that a good way to get a feel for the hobby is to watch this YouTube channel or listen to this podcast, etc. The cycle continues, and our hobby continues to grow and evolve.

Lucky they didn't meet those two numpties above who maybe would have told them to fuck off, "this Con is for real gamers only".


Pundit says that if you have never rolled a die, you are not a gamer. Well, duh. He enjoys that kind of bullshit trolling.
And then people push back, conflating "gamer" with "member of the hobby" (or somesuch).

But the problem is that it's a stupid fucking argument that does nothing but cause harm. I'm still waiting for an answer to my question above, I'll happily pose it to Waltshumate and Nerzenjager as well:

"Yes [Pundit], you were right, [we] were wrong. Now that you have won, please explain how this victory has improved the hobby?"

Quote from: Ulairi;1030172Most people are offline and not talking about it online. I read a fact that WoTC said something like almost 9,000,000 people played D&D last year. Very few of those people post about it or talk about it online. Very few of those people actually watch streaming games. Streams get millions of "views" but they aren't getting millions of people watching.

That's undoubtedly true, the numbers are likely very small in comparison. But
a) I don't think we have good numbers on anything, especially if we expand the periphery it to include podcasts, YouTube channels etc.
b) the "peripheral" numbers are growing, fast
c) we don't know what the future will hold. Ten years ago, even though people were playing online, tools like Roll20 and FantasyGrounds didn't really exist.

Quote from: Motorskills;1030180But the problem is that it's a stupid fucking argument that does nothing but cause harm. I'm still waiting for an answer to my question above, I'll happily pose it to Waltshumate and Nerzenjager as well:

"Yes [Pundit], you were right, [we] were wrong. Now that you have won, please explain how this victory has improved the hobby?"

  By continually purifying the hobby until it is limited to those who Play D&D Right, acknowledge the Pundit's greatness, and move on from gaming into real occult practice? ;)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1030182By continually purifying the hobby until it is limited to those who Play D&D Right, acknowledge the Pundit's greatness, and move on from gaming into real occult practice? ;)

Damn, you're good. :D

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1030178I wonder how they arrived at that number.

The magic of marketing!

Do you like numbers? Well, we've got BIG numbers for you!! Our numbers are so BIG they're SEXY and easy to repeat!

How did we get those numbers? Uh...that's proprietary, but don't you fret, our numbers are totally real.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030195The magic of marketing!

Do you like numbers? Well, we've got BIG numbers for you!! Our numbers are so BIG they're SEXY and easy to repeat!

How did we get those numbers? Uh...that's proprietary, but don't you fret, our numbers are totally real.

Like... you could reasonably infer number of players from sales data. It's not fucking sorcery.

Quote from: Azraele;1030196Like... you could reasonably infer number of players from sales data. It's not fucking sorcery.

If the sales were that great they'd tell us.

Quote from: Ulairi;1030203If the sales were that great they'd tell us.

  They have been--they've been making noise about 5E's sales for years now.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1030209They have been--they've been making noise about 5E's sales for years now.

In numbers? Like how many books they've sold? Or just it's the best selling?

Quote from: Ulairi;1030211In numbers? Like how many books they've sold? Or just it's the best selling?

They're not going to release the actual numbers. Publishers don't do that. So either you take your word for it or you don't.

However, the owner of my FLGS told me he sold 1,500 5E PHBs in 2017, which is the most of any RPG book since he started his business in the mid 80s.

Quote from: Haffrung;1030218They're not going to release the actual numbers. Publishers don't do that. So either you take your word for it or you don't.

However, the owner of my FLGS told me he sold 1,500 5E PHBs in 2017, which is the most of any RPG book since he started his business in the mid 80s.

They are on a ridiculous re-print number as well (sixth or more IIRC). They aren't just selling more, they are repeatedly selling beyond their (admittedly probably very careful) estimates.

Quote from: Motorskills;1030236They are on a ridiculous re-print number as well (sixth or more IIRC). They aren't just selling more, they are repeatedly selling beyond their (admittedly probably very careful) estimates.

  Bear in mind that even the much-maligned 4E PHB hit its eighth or ninth printing by the time production stopped.

Quote from: Haffrung;1030218They're not going to release the actual numbers. Publishers don't do that. So either you take your word for it or you don't.

However, the owner of my FLGS told me he sold 1,500 5E PHBs in 2017, which is the most of any RPG book since he started his business in the mid 80s.

I think 5E is a big success. I don't doubt that. I remember TSR gave actual numbers a few times and other publishers have.

A good measure I have seen of the success is the move to try to make D&D a "lifestyle brand" the way other "geek" things have become. It isn't about playing D&D but being apart of the tribe that likes D&D. I was at a Kohl's here in Milwaukee and I saw a pre-faded D&D t-shirt on the shelf.

Quote from: Ulairi;1030242I think 5E is a big success. I don't doubt that. I remember TSR gave actual numbers a few times and other publishers have.

  TSR stopped giving out actual numbers after the early 90s. (I collected TSR catalogs from the 2nd Edition era; they seem to have stopped giving the numbers out at about the time it became clear the catalogs were making it away from retailers and into the hands of fans.)

  2E's PHB, for comparison, sold over 300,000 units in its first year.

Quote from: Ulairi;1030203If the sales were that great they'd tell us.

Yeah, they'd be saying things like "We just had our best year since I started in 2002!" or "We've outsold 3.0 and 3.5 combined!" and things like that. By the way, the PHB recently hit #3 in all books on Amazon again and is currently at #47.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1030278Yeah, they'd be saying things like "We just had our best year since I started in 2002!" or "We've outsold 3.0 and 3.5 combined!" and things like that. By the way, the PHB recently hit #3 in all books on Amazon again and is currently at #47.

Again, that doesn't mean much to me. I think 5E is a success. I wish we'd get numbers

QuoteCould be they will go away, gush to some other non-gamers, and explain that a good way to get a feel for the hobby is to watch this YouTube channel or listen to this podcast, etc. The cycle continues, and our hobby continues to grow and evolve.

I sincerely hope so. Despite the renaissance in gaming recently, none of us can, or should, be complacent about encouraging new blood. The first question I have when sitting down with players at a convention is 'have you roleplayed before'? If they haven't, it's my responsibility to make the experience as welcoming for them as possible so that they'll want to play again.

I see no point in denigrating any part of our hobby, whether it's passive or active. While someone who's only ever watched Critical Role may not be an active gamer, they're certainly a potential gamer - and there may be many good reasons why they haven't yet taken the plunge. I think it's far better to make encouraging noises and gain some converts; this renaissance won't last forever.

Quote from: Loz;1030288I sincerely hope so. Despite the renaissance in gaming recently, none of us can, or should, be complacent about encouraging new blood. The first question I have when sitting down with players at a convention is 'have you roleplayed before'? If they haven't, it's my responsibility to make the experience as welcoming for them as possible so that they'll want to play again.

I see no point in denigrating any part of our hobby, whether it's passive or active. While someone who's only ever watched Critical Role may not be an active gamer, they're certainly a potential gamer - and there may be many good reasons why they haven't yet taken the plunge. I think it's far better to make encouraging noises and gain some converts; this renaissance won't last forever.

This guy gets it. Shame others don't.


...


From another blog I follow:

QuoteSo I was watching a recent hour-long YouTube interview with billionaire investor Cliff Asness. Always watch and listen to very smart people in fields other than your own ideally people who share a common language (in this case economics, he was a PhD student of Eugene Fama).

And he parenthetically remarks,

Quote from: Cliff AsnessYou can't fight language by the way. Language is democratic. If you continue to fight language for a very long period eventually you're just a bitter old man that no one understands. You just have to say "I lost" and kind of move on.

Quote from: Motorskills;1030236They are on a ridiculous re-print number as well (sixth or more IIRC). They aren't just selling more, they are repeatedly selling beyond their (admittedly probably very careful) estimates.

The copy of the 5E PHB I bought for use with AiME is eighth printing.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1030238Bear in mind that even the much-maligned 4E PHB hit its eighth or ninth printing by the time production stopped.

4e never made it into Costco, though...

Without knowing the size of the print runs, the edition of the printing doesn't tell us much (as far as numbers go). That's not to say 5e is not successful (it is), just how much is anyone's guess.

Quote from: Herne's Son;10303584e never made it into Costco, though...

True. I'm not disputing that 5E is, by all indications, a tremendous success, even if I am eccentric and crotchety enough not to be a big fan. :) I'm just pointing out that number of print runs appears to be a poor metric for comparison.

Quote from: Ulairi;1030156People watch the NFL because they are never going to be able to play in the NFL. I cannot play for the Oakland A's, if they'd let me, I'd do it. Anybody can play D&D.

Nobody is stopping them from playing D&D, play one game  your a gamer, until that happens your are not.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1030384Without knowing the size of the print runs, the edition of the printing doesn't tell us much (as far as numbers go). That's not to say 5e is not successful (it is), just how much is anyone's guess.

Correct. Like most of gaming's history, it is mostly a guessing game. All we can really say is that WotC is either conservative in the size of their print runs, or sales have exceeded their expectations (or both).

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1030387Correct. Like most of gaming's history, it is mostly a guessing game. All we can really say is that WotC is either conservative in the size of their print runs, or sales have exceeded their expectations (or both).

Hasbro doesn't do small print runs.

When I was 11 (1978) a friend introduced me to a public access show where a group of older kids, roughly high school aged, played D&D in front a black and white camera for 3 hours or so. It was seriously a live feed from a gaming table, and pretty dorky at that. The DM was well prepared and had an 'I'm in charge' style that I don't particularly like in play but makes sense for this format. Anyway, this was an important part of our early-middle-school, how-do-I-get-in-on-this-new-big-kid-hobby process. We didn't watch it much after we started playing regularly ourselves. But I fondly remember those unwashed nerds and recognize their influence on me.

So, I sort of get why people like watching these things on youtube (though the idea that the 'players' are paid actors makes me throw up a little into my mouth, reswallow it, and then massively hurl, spraying the full contents of my digestive system all around the room). One thing sort of like this that my daughter played for me is The Adventure Zone, a pretty funny D&D podcast by the guys who make Monster Factory. Maybe they make money off of this, but it was pretty fun anyway.

The idea that watching or listening to any of this stuff makes you a 'gamer' is ludicrous. By some transitive property of human experience, I'm deeply embarrassed for all the poor young dipshits who think this is a position that can be defended. Or even explained.

I apologize if this came up before, but about two years into 5e's run, Mearls said that the 5e PHB had sold better than the 3e, 3.5, and 4e PHBs over the course of their entire runs (individually, not combined).  He also said that comparisons with earlier editions weren't possible because the records were spotty.

When WotC passed that milestone, they didn't publicly make a big deal about it, it was a dashed off tweet, so I'm not sure that WotC actually would crow about outselling earlier editions.  (Plus, I think Mearls had indicated there were legal issues with giving out more detailed information).

Quote from: Larsdangly;1030415The idea that watching or listening to any of this stuff makes you a 'gamer' is ludicrous. By some transitive property of human experience, I'm deeply embarrassed for all the poor young dipshits who think this is a position that can be defended. Or even explained.

A lot of lonely young people are desperate to belong to some sort of community. The fact that they have virtually no life experience or engagement with the wider world outside of nerd entertainment means nerd entertainment acts as an ersatz community to them. Combine with an emerging ethos that to deny someone's subjective assertions about reality is a form of violence, and you get the absurdity of audience=participant=community.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1030387Correct. Like most of gaming's history, it is mostly a guessing game. All we can really say is that WotC is either conservative in the size of their print runs, or sales have exceeded their expectations (or both).

As an aside, one of my copies of Palladium's Robotech RPG is a 12th edition copy....

Quote from: Haffrung;1030423Combine with an emerging ethos that to deny someone's subjective assertions about reality is a form of violence...

I'm pretty sure that ethos is as old as religion.

Quote from: Ulairi;1030211In numbers? Like how many books they've sold? Or just it's the best selling?

Sufficiently well that the core books are in their 6th or 8th printing as of last check.

Quote from: Azraele;1029881Huh. It's almost like these people need constant recognition and reinforcement of their own identity or something.

You don't say;)!

Quote from: Motorskills;1030180Exactly Loz, that's fantastic. Presumably they gushed about their fun time watching a stream to someone that suggested that they go to Breakout, and they had a great time.

Could be they will go away, gush to some other non-gamers, and explain that a good way to get a feel for the hobby is to watch this YouTube channel or listen to this podcast, etc. The cycle continues, and our hobby continues to grow and evolve.

Lucky they didn't meet those two numpties above who maybe would have told them to fuck off, "this Con is for real gamers only".


Pundit says that if you have never rolled a die, you are not a gamer. Well, duh. He enjoys that kind of bullshit trolling.
And then people push back, conflating "gamer" with "member of the hobby" (or somesuch).

But the problem is that it's a stupid fucking argument that does nothing but cause harm. I'm still waiting for an answer to my question above, I'll happily pose it to Waltshumate and Nerzenjager as well:

"Yes [Pundit], you were right, [we] were wrong. Now that you have won, please explain how this victory has improved the hobby?"

Well, if you want to see anything good about the hobby, tell people that by watching, they were "involved with the gaming community", and now they can make the next step and become full-bore gamers.
Or you can just shut up, and invite some new people to play:).

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1030182By continually purifying the hobby until it is limited to those who Play D&D Right, acknowledge the Pundit's greatness, and move on from gaming into real occult practice? ;)

...OK, that's an entertaining theory:D!

Quote from: Azraele;1030196Like... you could reasonably infer number of players from sales data. It's not fucking sorcery.

That's assuming that all sets that get sold are going to be used for a game, and not merely for staying on a shelf.
I wouldn't be confident I can support such an assertion;).

Quote from: Loz;1030288I sincerely hope so. Despite the renaissance in gaming recently, none of us can, or should, be complacent about encouraging new blood. The first question I have when sitting down with players at a convention is 'have you roleplayed before'? If they haven't, it's my responsibility to make the experience as welcoming for them as possible so that they'll want to play again.

I see no point in denigrating any part of our hobby, whether it's passive or active. While someone who's only ever watched Critical Role may not be an active gamer, they're certainly a potential gamer - and there may be many good reasons why they haven't yet taken the plunge. I think it's far better to make encouraging noises and gain some converts; this renaissance won't last forever.

"Great job", is all I can say;)!

Quote from: Baulderstone;1030444I'm pretty sure that ethos is as old as religion.

And both variants of the same ethos did about as much good:D!

Quote from: Baulderstone;1030444I'm pretty sure that ethos is as old as religion.

It's old, but hardly ubiquitous.  It's mostly confined to civilized societies far enough along to exhibit decadence.  Don't get me wrong.  The more primitive societies or emerging civilizations will still let you have it over "subjective assertions about reality," but they typically can't be bothered to pretend it is something other than them letting you have it because they don't like what you said.

Why would someone who is a non-gamer bother to watch those boring-ass shows anyway? I play D&D and other RPGs, but I find watching other people do it as boring as oblivion.

Quote from: Robyo;1030547Why would someone who is a non-gamer bother to watch those boring-ass shows anyway? I play D&D and other RPGs, but I find watching other people do it as boring as oblivion.

It's like other forms of entertainment. Some like, some love it, some could care less and others hate it.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1030564It's like other forms of entertainment. Some like, some love it, some could care less and others hate it.

Agreed.  The thing is, regardless of how we feel, others feel differently.  I am amazed, for instance, of the rise of "reaction videos", videos of people reacting to primary content like a new movie trailer.  I just want to see the trailer for myself but there's a whole audience of people who like watching other people watch something else.  

For instance, The "Five Nights at Freddie's" series of video games seem to have gotten popular in part from people's reaction videos to all the jump scares.  Part of the fun was watching others freak out.

I suspect this is a generational thing, and not just a "fad".  It could be that there is a whole market for watching games as a spectator sport.  Stranger things have happened.

Quote from: JRT;1030566I suspect this is a generational thing, and not just a "fad".  It could be that there is a whole market for watching games as a spectator sport.  Stranger things have happened.

Go reread Fahrenheit 451.

Quote from: JRT;1030566Agreed.  The thing is, regardless of how we feel, others feel differently.  I am amazed, for instance, of the rise of "reaction videos", videos of people reacting to primary content like a new movie trailer.  I just want to see the trailer for myself but there's a whole audience of people who like watching other people watch something else.  

For instance, The "Five Nights at Freddie's" series of video games seem to have gotten popular in part from people's reaction videos to all the jump scares.  Part of the fun was watching others freak out.

I suspect this is a generational thing, and not just a "fad".  It could be that there is a whole market for watching games as a spectator sport.  Stranger things have happened.

Personally, I like watching RLM satirize the videos they watched of people watching trailers.

Quote from: JRT;1030566Agreed.  The thing is, regardless of how we feel, others feel differently.  I am amazed, for instance, of the rise of "reaction videos", videos of people reacting to primary content like a new movie trailer.  I just want to see the trailer for myself but there's a whole audience of people who like watching other people watch something else.  

For instance, The "Five Nights at Freddie's" series of video games seem to have gotten popular in part from people's reaction videos to all the jump scares.  Part of the fun was watching others freak out.

I suspect this is a generational thing, and not just a "fad".  It could be that there is a whole market for watching games as a spectator sport.  Stranger things have happened.

Definitely a generational thing. My kids spend almost as much time watching Youtube videos of other people playing Minecraft as they do actually playing Minecraft.

Quote from: Haffrung;1030616Definitely a generational thing. My kids spend almost as much time watching Youtube videos of other people playing Minecraft as they do actually playing Minecraft.

Back in the early 80s, my cousin and I were given rolls of quarters to go to the arcade. I always gave my quarters to my cousin, because he was much better at Donkey Kong than I was, which meant the money lasted much longer. I had more fun watching him play than playing the games myself. :D

Quote from: Haffrung;1030616Definitely a generational thing. My kids spend almost as much time watching Youtube videos of other people playing Minecraft as they do actually playing Minecraft.

Next thing you know there will be gamers who spend almost as much time on RPG forums as they do playing them.

Quote from: Ulairi;1029636Pundit,

Why do you get so involved with this twitter nonsense? What do you gain from it?

Fame, sales, reputation, the lamentations of my enemies.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1029656A day spent writing how to summon angels via the Key of Solomon for DA/L&D would have been much more productive.

I already did that. It's one of the RPGPundit Presents issues (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/223668/RPGPundit-Presents-2-The-Goetia).

Though mind you, since that's just an extension of the Summoning Rules ALREADY IN Dark Albion and Lion & Dragon, it's way less interesting than the other "grimoire" books I've put in the RPGPundit Presents series.

You'd have known that if you actually had any of the books mentioned.

Quote from: waltshumate;1029657They reason why people like Adam Koebel  want to  jam door jammed wide open to anyone who self identifies as a gamer, is the same reason the left are so fond of mass illegal immigration.

Pretty much, just on a much smaller scale for smaller stakes. But the end goal is the same; for 'community' to have no coherent meaning so no one has a sense of genuine unity. Makes it easier to rule over the mob.

Quote from: Azraele;1029881It's so crazy dude; here I've been, gaming and enjoying the hobby for years. And all this time, it was up to your personal recognition of my "identity as a gamer" that I could be an actual part of the real hobby. Who knew you did me such violence?

Nope, it's not up to me. It's up to basic objective reality: If you game you're a gamer. If you do not game you are not a gamer.

Quote from: Baulderstone;1030655Next thing you know there will be gamers who spend almost as much time on RPG forums as they do playing them.

Touché! :D

Quote from: Baulderstone;1030655Next thing you know there will be gamers who spend almost as much time on RPG forums as they do playing them.

I play on average about 14 hours/week at least (6-9 hours online games & 5-8 hours tabletop), but I probably do spend longer than that on forums!

Quote from: RPGPundit;1030715I already did that. It's one of the RPGPundit Presents issues (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/223668/RPGPundit-Presents-2-The-Goetia).

Though mind you, since that's just an extension of the Summoning Rules ALREADY IN Dark Albion and Lion & Dragon, it's way less interesting than the other "grimoire" books I've put in the RPGPundit Presents series.

You'd have known that if you actually had any of the books mentioned.

I said Angels via the Key of Solomon not Demons via the Goetia.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1030717Nope, it's not up to me. It's up to basic objective reality: If you game you're a gamer. If you do not game you are not a gamer.

... Yeah, that was. That was sarcasm dude. Hence my second, clarifying line (punchline, if you will)

Quote from: Baulderstone;1030655Next thing you know there will be gamers who spend almost as much time on RPG forums as they do playing them.

Hey! I resemble that remark! ;):D

Community. :)

Quote from: Baulderstone;1030655Next thing you know there will be gamers who spend almost as much time on RPG forums as they do playing them.

Then I'm sure someone will come along claiming that those are the same thing. :rolleyes:

That's actually a good analogy.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1030890Then I'm sure someone will come along claiming that those are the same thing. :rolleyes:

Maybe. Who cares. You'd have to be the pettiest of petty assholes to worry about it. Let alone spends days online arguing about it.

Quote from: Baulderstone;1030914Maybe. Who cares. You'd have to be the pettiest of petty assholes to worry about it. Let alone spends days online arguing about it.

So don't be petty?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1030909That's actually a good analogy.

Not really as they actually play games.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1030921Not really as they actually play games.

What makes you say someone watching a d&d stream isn't also playing?

Wow.

This thread actually makes the "my toy trains are better than your toy trains because they're made of metal instead of plastic" arguments look interesting in comparison.

Well done, all.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1030927What makes you say someone watching a d&d stream isn't also playing?

If they are actually playing what does this thread actually have to do with them then? The WHOLE point was folks who watch people play the game but DON'T actually play the game themselves are not gamers. Are you retarded or simply stupid on purpose.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030930This thread actually makes the "my toy trains are better than your toy trains because they're made of metal instead of plastic" arguments look interesting in comparison.

Metal and plastic trains are the same. No differences.

Also, watching model train videos is the same as building them from scratch.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1030931If they are actually playing what does this thread actually have to do with them then? The WHOLE point was folks who watch people play the game but DON'T actually play the game themselves are not gamers. Are you retarded or simply stupid on purpose.

Nobody was arguing over whether those specific people are gamers. So congrats on being the retard.

The argument was whether they're in the "D&D community," which Pundit defines as only gamers, but the other people define as the entire constellation of people surrounding the hobby.

And unlike others I'm actually on Twitter.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030968Metal and plastic trains are the same. No differences.

Also, watching model train videos is the same as building them from scratch.

"Inane argument is as inane as other inane argument."

And pointing out a silly statement is not the same as pretending you're Donald Trump and declaring "flawless victory" because of a tweet on Twitter.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1030968Metal and plastic trains are the same. No differences.

Also, watching model train videos is the same as building them from scratch.

About ten years ago somebody tried to get discussion going on "are model trains art."  It died from lack of interest.  Which should happen to a lot of stuff, honestly.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1030985Nobody was arguing over whether those specific people are gamers. So congrats on being the retard.

The argument was whether they're in the "D&D community," which Pundit defines as only gamers, but the other people define as the entire constellation of people surrounding the hobby.

And unlike others I'm actually on Twitter.

Who's arguing that those that play and watch aren't part of the community? You're the one that brought it up....

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1031005"Inane argument is as inane as other inane argument."

And that's why the internet should only be used for LoLcats and porn!!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1031087And that's why the internet should only be used for LoLcats and porn!!

Or LoLcat Porn!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030930Wow.

This thread actually makes the "my toy trains are better than your toy trains because they're made of metal instead of plastic" arguments look interesting in comparison.

Well done, all.

Truely. So is someone who likes to watch toy trains tooling around dioramas a train enthusiast or are they a mere spectator? Is a person who makes dioramas and set pieces for trains an enthusiast or are they excluded from the club too?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1031006About ten years ago somebody tried to get discussion going on "are model trains art."  It died from lack of interest.  Which should happen to a lot of stuff, honestly.

If you actually sculpted and molded/cast and machined all. or most of the parts. Then yeah thats art. Id say so is laying out the dioramas and scenery. Some of that stuff is really gorgeous works of craftsmanship.

Part of the attempted discussion was to separate "craftsmanship" from "art."

Like I said, nobody really cared.  "It's fun, who cares" was the overwhelming answer.

Quote from: S'mon;1030720I play on average about 14 hours/week at least (6-9 hours online games & 5-8 hours tabletop), but I probably do spend longer than that on forums!

I used to be in that same boat:).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1031162Part of Simmerya;1031162]Part of the attempted discussion was to separate "craftsmanship" from "art."

Like I said, nobody really cared.  "It's fun, who cares" was the overwhelming answer.

I wish we could get the RPG players to adopt the same approach.
Also, this thread reminds me of trains as well. Trains that are about to crash;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1031162Part of the attempted discussion was to separate "craftsmanship" from "art."

Like I said, nobody really cared.  "It's fun, who cares" was the overwhelming answer.

"Pundit overstates achievements in face of overwhelming apathy"-News at 11.

Well the issue is the inherent attempts at trying to form a specific definition of what a "Gamer" is as some form of quasi-political tribe within the context of larger gaming community.

It has less to do with do you actually play (which I agree should probably be a good place to start) - than it is for this emergent left-leaning neo-liberal gamers trying to define "gamers" as those like them as opposed to everyone else. Hence as Gronan pointed out -WHO CARES? I don't care. But then that leaves the door open for the obvious opportunity to have the hobby reframed in popular media (as such) as to what a gamer is. What they wear, what they look like, what causes they should care about, what language they use, etc.

And sure, I can say none of this stuff affects me. But I'd be lying. When I try to get more players when I get a spot open at my table, I've started to get a lot of hyper-sensitive folks that wear this uniform either physically or mentally. I've had a few really get disturbed by things at my table, that most players of my age don't bat an eye at. (Yes, there's slaves in Calimshan and yes there are slaves. SLAVES! And no it doesn't make us racists by acknowledging that conceit) They walk in with notions in their head that resemble the Freakshow nature of modern D&D  ("A tiefling, an Aasimar Warlock, a Gnomish Barbarian/Monk and a gender-fluid elf dragon-blooded Sorcerer walk into a rural bar.") and bridle at my setup of expectations.

I've had players booted because they're not here at my table to play the games I'm running - they want to socialize and pretend they're in Big Bang-Theory or Critical Role cracking-wise at every scene and getting frustrated when my NPC's don't react to their insults with a chuckle and try to crush their skulls with a flanged mace.

Now I admit - I try to run things older-school with as much "realism" as I can allow (I'll defer to reality modified to accommodate magic to the point where society is reflective commensurate to the magic available - which for me defaults to 'powerful but very rare'). But I find Critical Role hopeless boring and not my kinda game. I look at Critical Role like "the Andry Griffith Show" and their campaign world is like the town of Mayberry. Whereas I'm trying to do Westeros by way of Melnibone and Aquilonia. They're *very* different conceits. I don't do spectators. I don't give a crap about people that not only don't game, but I don't care about people that pseudo-game and are there more to socialize than actually play. So yeah my bar is higher than probably others. But I'm not going to say that while I don't care, the rise of Critical Role and their ilk haven't had their soy-smelling milquetoast flotsam come beaching itself on my shores.

And maybe that just how it is. I don't care about labels as much as I care about my game. But that apparently is coming at a cost by those that adore and worship labels which I (and some of you) may not resemble.

I should also add - nothing they do is going to change how I game.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1030909That's actually a good analogy.

Could you clarify. What exactly is it that is a good analogy?

Quote from: tenbones;1031234And sure, I can say none of this stuff affects me. But I'd be lying. When I try to get more players when I get a spot open at my table, I've started to get a lot of hyper-sensitive folks that wear this uniform either physically or mentally. I've had a few really get disturbed by things at my table, that most players of my age don't bat an eye at. (Yes, there's slaves in Calimshan and yes there are slaves. SLAVES! And no it doesn't make us racists by acknowledging that conceit) They walk in with notions in their head that resemble the Freakshow nature of modern D&D  ("A tiefling, an Aasimar Warlock, a Gnomish Barbarian/Monk and a gender-fluid elf dragon-blooded Sorcerer walk into a rural bar.") and bridle at my setup of expectations.

I was worried (I worry a lot) I'd get in trouble running Wilderlands of High Fantasy with its 1970s sword & sorcery tropes - slavery, half naked Amazon warriors (including PCs), et al - but I have to say I've not seen this at all. All the new players have been really cool so far. And we have currently three tables GMing specifically the Wilderlands every Sunday (plus one alternate plane 4th table), so that's a lot of players. Maybe Britain is different - but we have a fair number of American players, as well as continental Europeans and others.

I tried very hard to be a gatekeeper, yesterday, but I think I'm not very good at it. Had a person who'd been watching Critical Roll come in to the FLGS to see what this RPG thing was all about, and I talked to them for most of the afternoon about the hobby and the history of the thing. They're now doing their first miniatures, and will be coming to RPG sessions at the FLGS.

So, I am a failure at being an elderly white male gatekeeper, keeping people out of the hobby. Hopefully, I can get some remedial training or something.

(Try not to trip over the heavy sarcasm on the floor, there. Thanks.)

Quote from: S'mon;1031266I was worried (I worry a lot) I'd get in trouble running Wilderlands of High Fantasy with its 1970s sword & sorcery tropes - slavery, half naked Amazon warriors (including PCs), et al - but I have to say I've not seen this at all. All the new players have been really cool so far. And we have currently three tables GMing specifically the Wilderlands every Sunday (plus one alternate plane 4th table), so that's a lot of players. Maybe Britain is different - but we have a fair number of American players, as well as continental Europeans and others.

I suspect it's my location. I don't mean to sound like the majority of players I encounter are this way - I'm in Texas, most people here are middle-conservative politically. But I live in a very vibrant gaming community where the local FLGS is a gamer's Nirvana but is totally converged with the pop-culture idea of what being a geek is. They wear the uniform, drink the Kool-Aid, play the proscribed way. *I* am a "Hoary Olde Beaste of Olde", which I've noticed from older gamers, they generally love everything I'm doing as if they've been trudging through the desert of Critical Role style gaming and wonder where I've been all their life. But it's happened enough in reverse where I'm very upfront in my interview process about the things we do (this is where Gronan's golden rule of Setting up Expectations comes in) where I've found people turned off by the notion that there are conceits to a campaign that diverge from "whatever is allowed in their favorite liveplay." i.e. non-contextualized PC's.

I detest liveplays largely because they're not the kind of games I run. Most of the Critical Role stuff, which people largely consider "among the best" - I consider little more than Scooby-Do the RPG. If that's the standard, then I'll happily leave it to others to enjoy. I'm doing something entirely different for people with entirely different tastes, wants and needs.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1031298I tried very hard to be a gatekeeper, yesterday, but I think I'm not very good at it. Had a person who'd been watching Critical Roll come in to the FLGS to see what this RPG thing was all about, and I talked to them for most of the afternoon about the hobby and the history of the thing. They're now doing their first miniatures, and will be coming to RPG sessions at the FLGS.

So, I am a failure at being an elderly white male gatekeeper, keeping people out of the hobby. Hopefully, I can get some remedial training or something.

(Try not to trip over the heavy sarcasm on the floor, there. Thanks.)

You're doing Arioch's work. Bless you.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1031298(Try not to trip over the heavy sarcasm on the floor, there. Thanks.)

* DONK! * Ow!  * Zwizz! * Oops!  AIEEE! * clatter of ironmongery as the Glorious General falls down the stairs *

Ah, it's a man's life in the Tsolyani Army.

(Yes, we used to do this sort of thing at Phil's.  His eyes would narrow, his foul little cigar would tilt upwards, and he'd say "Very funny."  Which only made it more amusing.)

Quote from: tenbones;1031420I suspect it's my location. I don't mean to sound like the majority of players I encounter are this way - I'm in Texas, most people here are middle-conservative politically. But I live in a very vibrant gaming community where the local FLGS is a gamer's Nirvana but is totally converged with the pop-culture idea of what being a geek is. They wear the uniform, drink the Kool-Aid, play the proscribed way. *I* am a "Hoary Olde Beaste of Olde", which I've noticed from older gamers, they generally love everything I'm doing as if they've been trudging through the desert of Critical Role style gaming and wonder where I've been all their life. But it's happened enough in reverse where I'm very upfront in my interview process about the things we do (this is where Gronan's golden rule of Setting up Expectations comes in) where I've found people turned off by the notion that there are conceits to a campaign that diverge from "whatever is allowed in their favorite liveplay." i.e. non-contextualized PC's.

I detest liveplays largely because they're not the kind of games I run. Most of the Critical Role stuff, which people largely consider "among the best" - I consider little more than Scooby-Do the RPG. If that's the standard, then I'll happily leave it to others to enjoy. I'm doing something entirely different for people with entirely different tastes, wants and needs.

Okay, I'll bite... what's a "liveplay?"  Do you mean a podcast game?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1031436Okay, I'll bite... what's a "liveplay?"  Do you mean a podcast game?

yeah. To me - it's people making a show of their game. It's detracts from the gaming itself. It's one of the reasons I don't allow "spectators" to my table. No significant others, no kids, no friends in the next room watching TV or playing console games while we play etc.

May sound draconian, but I'm there to run a game and play with the least amount of extraneous distractions as possible. Broadcasting across the web? That's ludicrous to me, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is because the content of my games would be, in this politically correct climate be probably objectionable (my games would be close to Game of Thrones in content expectations - usually.)

Got it, thanks.  Playing RPGs for an audience sounds dumb anyway, besides not fun.

I had a revolutionary thought, why don't someone ask one of the frequent podcasters what the deal is? Do they ham it up or what?

As for myself the two times I did it, (once player, once referee). The only effect it had on me is on my OOG language i.e. swearing. Other than I played and refreed like I always had. Well except for not being able to use Roll20 because of the tech.

I have been podcasting some sessions and not podcasting others. Enjoying both. With the podcasts, the main difference for me is stuff Estar mentioned (minding my words a little more) and occasionally saying things so anyone listening can understand what is going on (for instance just providing a sentence to contextualize the situation a bit). I definitely have fun recording them. I see their value is probably limited to audiences who want to look at other GMs adjudication approaches, new GMs or people who just like listening to people game. I am sure most podcasts are on a spectrum in terms of how much things get hammed up. If people are hamming it up, and enjoying themselves, I say its fine.

One advantage I like with podcasting recordings is I have a record of my sessions. If there is some question that arises later in the campaign, we can go back and check the recording.

There is a distinct difference between podcasting for other's consumption and recording your sessions for personal use.

The idea of people playing over the internet itself is not the issue. I've recently started doing it with a few of my friends from LA, and yep it works great. But this idea that you're going to broadcast your tabletop game for other people to watch is inevitably going to affect how you GM or how your players play. This is obviously dependent on the content of your games too.

If people are content to run family-friendly adventures (and/or modules) great. But I maintain the point of gaming is not to be entertaining for a crowd, but for the players and so it'll be affected.

And if you're into letting all things hit the table in your games (mostly) then you're not doing yourself any favors at all. Case in point, I took a casual glance at Warhammer Fantasy podcast games for the purposes of content matter. Sure there's gallows humor in WHFRP. But for the most part, I couldn't tell the difference between the games being played in Warhammer or 5e Forgotten realms because they seemed (at least the few I watched) to have this whole "gameshow" kinda vibe to it. I have no idea if it's sub-conscious or it's the format. There's a larger "silliness for silliness's sake"-factor going on and I can't shake the gut-instinct it's for the camera.

Well, according to the CR guys, they don't change anything about how they play. They just broadcast it.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1031483Well, according to the CR guys, they don't change anything about how they play. They just broadcast it.

I think it's very common for folks to do casting calls and have quotas for their home games.


I'd love to live stream my games but I don't have a soul patch.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1031162"It's fun, who cares" was the overwhelming answer.

But that was 10 years ago. Things have gotten SUPER SERIOUS since then.
I wonder if the answer would be the same today.

Quote from: AsenRG;1031214Also, this thread reminds me of trains as well. Trains that are about to crash;).

Cue the Randy Rhoads guitar solo!!

Quote from: tenbones;1031234But I'm not going to say that while I don't care, the rise of Critical Role and their ilk haven't had their soy-smelling milquetoast flotsam come beaching itself on my shores.

And THAT is why Tenbones is the Poobah of the D.O.N.G.!

Quote from: S'mon;1031266Maybe Britain is different

The British certainly do mispronounce a lot of words!

Quote from: tenbones;1031480I have no idea if it's sub-conscious or it's the format. There's a larger "silliness for silliness's sake"-factor going on and I can't shake the gut-instinct it's for the camera.

Your gurgling bowels speak the truth.

It's nigh-universal for people to act differently when they know they are being recorded and broadcast. You see that with the news, TV interviews with non-celebs and putting people at ease and forgetting the camera is a notable skill that you only see with better interviewers.

Now mix that human impulse with the realization recorded RPG sessions can be monetized and act as "fame" vehicles...

There is no question Critical Role and other monetized Youtubers are creating entertainment for their audience and the continued profits from their audience engagement is FAR more important than WTF game they are playing.

It's ironic, but its actually counterproductive for their fans to become gamers. If their viewers have a regular outlet for gaming IRL, those fans-turned-gamers may not need to tune in for their "gaming fix."

Quote from: Spinachcat;1031502Your gurgling bowels speak the truth.

It's nigh-universal for people to act differently when they know they are being recorded and broadcast. You see that with the news, TV interviews with non-celebs and putting people at ease and forgetting the camera is a notable skill that you only see with better interviewers.

Now mix that human impulse with the realization recorded RPG sessions can be monetized and act as "fame" vehicles...

There is no question Critical Role and other monetized Youtubers are creating entertainment for their audience and the continued profits from their audience engagement is FAR more important than WTF game they are playing.

It's ironic, but its actually counterproductive for their fans to become gamers. If their viewers have a regular outlet for gaming IRL, those fans-turned-gamers may not need to tune in for their "gaming fix."

But most gamers are not using podcasts, twitch or youtube like that. I am sure plenty would want 100,000 or more followers, and would love the money if it comes to them. But most of these channels are people dicking around with games and sharing it with a small, like-minded audience. Becoming a youtube celebrity or a professional streaming GM is quite the long shot. I think most folks are doing this to share things online and connect, but not because they think they'll make a million dollars (or even 50 dollars: I've had monetized youtube and blog for years and can probably get a cup of coffee with the money at this point).

People should do what they want. If you want to stream, go for it. If the idea of it makes you sick, don't do it. I am having fun doing both non-recorded and recorded sessions (and at this point at least, not seeing a huge difference between the two). And one thing people here should keep in mind, this is something people are watching and it is going to affect how people play the game because many of these channels are being used as tutorials. Might as well get your respective playstyle out there in some form, so it isn't dwarfed by other approaches.

Quote from: tenbones;1031421You're doing Arioch's work. Bless you.

Which is actually pretty funny, as one of my nicknames is "The Lord Of Chaos" because of the way I run my Braunsteins. Others have called me Lord Yama, from "Lord of Light". I will be raising up my Aspect on June 16th of this year for Free RPG Day; you pays your money and you takes your chances...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1031298I tried very hard to be a gatekeeper, yesterday, but I think I'm not very good at it. Had a person who'd been watching Critical Roll come in to the FLGS to see what this RPG thing was all about, and I talked to them for most of the afternoon about the hobby and the history of the thing. They're now doing their first miniatures, and will be coming to RPG sessions at the FLGS.

So, I am a failure at being an elderly white male gatekeeper, keeping people out of the hobby. Hopefully, I can get some remedial training or something.

(Try not to trip over the heavy sarcasm on the floor, there. Thanks.)

If the person came in wanting to game, then there's no reason to gatekeep. We want everyone to game.

Am I my brother's/sister's gatekeeper?

Quote from: tenbones;1031629Am I my brother's/sister's gatekeeper?

"The Lord said, 'What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the YouTube browser'"

Lord Arioch! It makes the grass grow!!!!!

Quote from: tenbones;1031629Am I my brother's/sister's gatekeeper?

Contextually, my brothers and sisters here are the people who play RPGs.

Yeah, wargame grognards really gatekeep to keep women out of the hobby.  (Paul Stormberg photo, GaryCon X, "Don't give Up the Ship")

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Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1032033Yeah, wargame grognards really gatekeep to keep women out of the hobby.  (Paul Stormberg photo, GaryCon X, "Don't give Up the Ship")

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C'mon, we all know those are just Booth Babes/Fake Gamer Girls! :p

Quote from: RPGPundit;1031581If the person came in wanting to game, then there's no reason to gatekeep. We want everyone to game.

Having spent the last forty years trying to get people into the hobby, it was sarcasm, hence the note at the end of my comment. :)

Quote from: tenbones;1031480If people are content to run family-friendly adventures (and/or modules) great. But I maintain the point of gaming is not to be entertaining for a crowd, but for the players and so it'll be affected.

It doesn't necessarily have to be family friendly. Well not on Twitch at least they a have a "Mature Content" option. Also, GTA V has been one of the more popular recent games to stream and that is definitely not family friendly.  That said I get what you're saying about the camera's mere presence changing behaviour. It would be different from running your face to face game, but I reckon it'll still have possibilities for fun and a decent(ish) game.

Quote from: Weru;1032130It doesn't necessarily have to be family friendly. Well not on Twitch at least they a have a "Mature Content" option. Also, GTA V has been one of the more popular recent games to stream and that is definitely not family friendly.  That said I get what you're saying about the camera's mere presence changing behaviour. It would be different from running your face to face game, but I reckon it'll still have possibilities for fun and a decent(ish) game.

Possibly. I won't deny I'm sure my games would attract a lot of people that would probably get a kick out of my groups games.

But my personal interests are on my players and the game we share, not the nebulous lurkers and watchers who inevitably will want to chime in and offer their opinions on "who should have done what" or "I can't believe they didn't do " - etc. When in reality, those mere suggestions outside of a game are enough to impact the game going forward. I firmly believe a gaming group is like band, and chemistry is a big deal. But adding the camera would hugely impact that chemistry. I'm not saying there aren't players out there that would be immune to it. I'm saying it would be hard to assemble such a group to where the game itself wouldn't be impacted.

I'd be more interested in doing a fictional show about a group of people playing and RPG (like Knights of the Dinner Table-live action) than I would broadcasting an actual RPG game of mine.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1031971Contextually, my brothers and sisters here are the people who play RPGs.

/agreed

Very much an age of media world, where "without being seen what art thou?" It's easy to forget an entire generation has grown up having such easy accessibility to global audiences, that to be outside that defining gaze of others is almost like drowning in the void, being sensory deprived. Almost an "I am my image" identity, with the subsequent crises that follow.

The Demon Prince of Media in my In Nomine games smiles... :cool: (Who wants to play as the "soy-smelling milquetoast flotsam" that "come beaching itself upon [gaming's] shores," in a PbP In Nomine game? :) Anyone wanna play as demons of Media or Factions? Or as angels of Flowers, Stone, or Creation? :D You know you want to!)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1031444Got it, thanks.  Playing RPGs for an audience sounds dumb anyway, besides not fun.

One of the local DMs liked to record sessions. And I did once for an Albedo session. Both times it didnt impact gameplay at all. Everyone forgot the mic or camera was there.

This is the big disconnect between recording sessions. Is the camera ignored? Or are the players effectively acting on stage(table)?

Quote from: Opaopajr;1032858Very much an age of media world, where "without being seen what art thou?" It's easy to forget an entire generation has grown up having such easy accessibility to global audiences, that to be outside that defining gaze of others is almost like drowning in the void, being sensory deprived. Almost an "I am my image" identity, with the subsequent crises that follow.

This is an element of the hysteria over representation that gets overlooked. We're seeing a generation for whom anonymity, or lack of reflection in entertainment and media, is a kind of death. The self only exists if others can see, acknowledge, and praise it. And since meat-space social connections are in steep decline - young people have fewer ties to community, extended family, and real-world peers - the ersatz community of Youtube, Twitter, Twitch, etc. is expected to fill the void. That can't be healthy.

Quote from: Haffrung;1032959This is an element of the hysteria over representation that gets overlooked. We're seeing a generation for whom anonymity, or lack of reflection in entertainment and media, is a kind of death. The self only exists if others can see, acknowledge, and praise it. And since meat-space social connections are in steep decline - young people have fewer ties to community, extended family, and real-world peers - the ersatz community of Youtube, Twitter, Twitch, etc. is expected to fill the void. That can't be healthy.

A rather exciting time to live in, no? :)

It's OK though, all youth has to find its own way into the reins of power. Life inculcates resilience regardless, for the alternative is death... And life so wants to live! So I am fascinated how long such an artificially-induced anomie can persist. (Particularly in so social an activity as tabletop gaming, how long can such culture shock of the agoraphobic survive, let alone change gaming -- if at all?)

Quote from: tenbones;1031441yeah. To me - it's people making a show of their game. It's detracts from the gaming itself. It's one of the reasons I don't allow "spectators" to my table. No significant others, no kids, no friends in the next room watching TV or playing console games while we play etc.

May sound draconian, but I'm there to run a game and play with the least amount of extraneous distractions as possible. Broadcasting across the web? That's ludicrous to me, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is because the content of my games would be, in this politically correct climate be probably objectionable (my games would be close to Game of Thrones in content expectations - usually.)

I also considered broadcasting, once long ago. Then I realized I'd get the internet variant of crucifixion for my efforts:D!

Quote from: Opaopajr;1033039A rather exciting time to live in, no? :)

It's OK though, all youth has to find its own way into the reins of power. Life inculcates resilience regardless, for the alternative is death... And life so wants to live! So I am fascinated how long such an artificially-induced anomie can persist. (Particularly in so social an activity as tabletop gaming, how long can such culture shock of the agoraphobic survive, let alone change gaming -- if at all?)

Of course the agoraphobic can game. I recently got a self-described example of that on TBP:).
Let's just say that she wasn't into the same kind of games as most of us here;). So the change is already happening, whether it registers on the screens of anyone on this site, or not.