So, I haven't posted yet today because of an epic shitshow of a Twitter fight, where I've been busy taking on all comers from a gang of hipster-gamers.

The subject? What has prompted countless tweets? Is it Trump? The environment? Transgender rights?

Nope. It's that I had the audacity to suggest, on this thread, that D&D Livestream Youtube Shows like "Critical Role" are not actually a lot like what you see in most real games; and the shit especially hit the fan when I dared to suggest that.. and I know this was crazy of me.. that people who watch these shows but don't game aren't actually gamers.

Here's what I said:

"If they PLAY, they're #DnD gamers. If they just watch actors on a Youtube Reality-Show, they're not."


Well, you wouldn't believe the number of hipster gamer types who rushed forward howling in outrage that I would dare to suggest that people who never ever play D&D aren't actually D&D players. As if this wasn't so obvious it slides into tautology territory.

No, to them, it was incredibly offensive of me to say that if you've never played D&D even once you aren't actually a D&D gamer, no matter how many episodes of CriticalRole you've watched.

Note: I made it very clear, over and over again, that I wasn't 'gatekeeping' ANYONE who had actually played. I was saying, for the purposes of this argument, that if you've ever sat down and played an RPG even one single time I'll accept you're a gamer, but if you haven't ever, never ever, played an RPG, that makes you a NON-GAMER.  You know, because you haven't ever played.

For the whole glorious spectacle you'll need to check out the tweets & replies section of my Twitter account. Which, I don't know why, it seems you can only do if you're logged into Twitter (anyone know how to change that??).

But anyways, I've spent the whole day on this. It's been hilarious. I figured I'd get a fuckton of people pissed off when I pointed out that D&D YouTube shows are just that, shows. With paid actors and fake enthusiasm, and that they are not much like actually playing D&D, and they are almost destined to create a whole generation of disappointed players who think they should be getting the "look at the hipster-cool  nerd thing I'm doing!! OMG High-Five Wooo So Random" experience they see from the PAID ACTORS on shows like CriticalRole.


(yeah, no chance these guys are just a group of paid actors looking to make money and expand their careers by making prefab scenes and 80s nostalgia to milk rubes who think its all real)

I didn't figure I'd get a fuckton of people trying to claim that if you never played D&D in your life you are still a vital part of the "D&D Community" if you watch shows like Critical Role.  That watching the show makes you a gamer, even if you haven't ever played the game.

You know, like how if I were to go watch the new Paddington Bear movie, that would make me a reader.
Or British.
Or a tribesman from Darkest Peru.
Or, you know, a bear.




Go on, howl about how intolerant I am by daring to say that every single fucking person who's ever played is a gamer but people who have NEVER played are not.

See this? This is the world you fucking millennials have created. Where you literally have people claiming I have no right to say SOMEONE WHO NEVER GAMED is not a gamer, if they "feel" like they are.

But fortunately, I'm the RPGPundit. And if someone actually has to be called a 'gatekeeper' for stating the moronically obvious to stop the slide into total 'up is down' relativism, I'll be glad to do it for all of you. So here goes:

I don't give a twopenny fuck about your (a)moral objections you fucking Swine.

People who do not play RPGs are not part of the RPG Community. PERIOD.

Fans of YouTube vaguely-D&D-themed Prefab Reality-Shows who have themselves never actually played D&D are NOT GAMERS. PERIOD.

See that? Gate, kept.


RPGPundit

Currently Smoking: Lorenzetti Volcano + Blue Boar

>>People who do not play RPGs are not part of the RPG Community. PERIOD.

Fans of YouTube vaguely-D&D-themed Prefab Reality-Shows who have themselves never actually played D&D are NOT GAMERS. PERIOD. <<

I don't believe there is such a thing as "the RPG community" - there are various online and other communities, but the vast majority of gamers are not part of them.

If you have not played an RPG you are not an RPG player, yup.

I guess there is a proviso - there are people who don't play RPGs who are part of vaguely-RPG-related communities. RPGnet is an obvious example, there is a community there, around their Tangency board especially, of people who don't play RPGs. I guess there's even an therpgsite community, and again it could include non-RPG-players - it certainly does include people who haven't gamed in a good while. I expect there is a community around the Critical Role show, which includes many non-gamers. Who are not gamers but who are part of a vaguely-RPG-related community.

I watched a bit of Matt Mercer GMing Vin Diesel and some other actors recently. In the bit I could sit through, the main difference I saw from eg my game was that Mercer talks so much - he also puts far more effort into cadence, but the big thing was he was telling people what they thought & felt, and it seemed almost like a multiple choice gamebook, the player input was so limited. It was almost a one man performance. I guess people who come to my table expecting that sort of one man show are going to be disappointed.

Quote from: S'mon;1029408I watched a bit of Matt Mercer GMing Vin Diesel and some other actors recently. In the bit I could sit through, the main difference I saw from eg my game was that Mercer talks so much - he also puts far more effort into cadence, but the big thing was he was telling people what they thought & felt, and it seemed almost like a multiple choice gamebook, the player input was so limited. It was almost a one man performance. I guess people who come to my table expecting that sort of one man show are going to be disappointed.

That one is a bit misleading for CR since Mercer only had Vin there for 30 minutes and had to run them through an adventure in that time. Their normal games are hours long and boring for me but he talks much less there.

I think there's a difference between the "d&d community" and "d&d players". The community is the entire constellation of people around the hobby. So you can be part of all the discussion without playing. But yeah you aren't a player then.

First of all, people who don't play games are not gamers. Any argument to the contrary is absurd. It would be like saying I'm a boxing champion because I've watched all the Rocky movies.

Furthermore, I can't stand Critical Role. People constantly talk over each other in a way that would be both disrespectful to the GM and also very difficult to manage in actual play. It is without question being put on in order to make an entertaining show that will generate ad revenue. I find it to have quite little to do with how an actual game is conducted in my experience.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029404People who do not play RPGs are not part of the RPG Community. PERIOD.

The wife of a gamer who volunteers to work the kitchen at an local RPG convention is a more vital part of the community than a shitty gamer who simply sits at a table and rolls some dice when told to.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029404But fortunately, I'm the RPGPundit. And if someone actually has to be called a 'gatekeeper' for stating the moronically obvious to stop the slide into total 'up is down' relativism, I'll be glad to do it for all of you.

Of that, no one could ever doubt.

What exactly are people getting "gatekept" out of? If you don't actually play games...nobody's stopping you from watching more YouTube videos and posting online about them from the lonely, isolated darkness of your room.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1029432What exactly are people getting "gatekept" out of? If you don't actually play games...nobody's stopping you from watching more YouTube videos and posting online about them from the lonely, isolated darkness of your room.

Gate keeping refers to making people feel welcomed in social media cool kid tables and giving them power.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029404See this? This is the world you fucking millennials have created. Where you literally have people claiming I have no right to say SOMEONE WHO NEVER GAMED is not a gamer, if they "feel" like they are.

That's the world you boomers created.

The biggest problem I see with this show is more people coming into the hobby thinking D&D is group storytelling. Sigh.

I watch Critical Role. I like it and look forward to watching it each week. I've also played RPGs since 1983. Yes, I am a gamer. I don't get to game much these days, for various reasons, so for me it's something fun to watch just for the entertainment aspect of it. I take it for what it is...a show.

It's certainly not a true representation of RPGing around the gaming table, at least not in my experience. If any of those people that watch the show, and have never played, think that's how it will be when they play, they're in for a rude awakening. There's too much 'drama', 'acting', and while Matt Mercer is a brilliant GM, imo, the game is too narrative and lenient toward the players. However, if you know any of the history of the group, you'd know that they are all actors/voice actors with a drama background, so their style of game is what you're seeing. They were also playing together as a group (playing Pathfinder) before the show Critical Role was even an idea. They were approached about playing their game in front of a camera and it took off from there. Sure, they embellish things more, because it's a show, but it is what it is. This new season is a bit grating though, now that they have WotC sponsoring them and pushing this D&D Beyond crap and there are more ads in their Youtube feed. It 'feels' more like a TV show now, sadly.

All that being said, the show has a lot of 'fanbois' out there. Anyone who's never played D&D (or any rpg for that matter), but watches the show, and calls themselves a gamer is just being an idiot. To think otherwise is ludicrous. It's a millennial thing to feel the need to cling to something so desperately that they think they are apart of it, even when they're not. It's insecurity.

Oh and that episode with Vin Diesel was horrible. He's supposedly a 'D&D player', but I question that. He was beyond terrible and not someone I'd want at my table.

From the Twitterstorm...

QuoteEvil Squeegee
Personally, I stream for a living. I happen to stream #DnD for a living. I also do paid DMing on the side.
I cast entertaining people as my players. I run my show, in which we play our campaign, like a show.

People who watch a show are an audience.

The word "community" has been bastardized into the current nonsense term of "everybody who likes a certain thing".

By the retardo definition, they are right.

But we should not use retardo definitions.

Gamer fans should be honest and call themselves gamer fans.

However, energy spent making sure people know they aren't real gamers could be better spent encouraging them to become real gamers, which would help the hobby much more than getting pissy about titles.

I think the mistake you are making is thinking that we live in an age of reason when we clearly do not.

The simple logic of gamer = person who plays games is as you say almost a tautology, however, people wrap their hobbies in to their identities now and, if a critical role fan has wrapped themselves in the label "gamer" they will be most peeved with someone saying "No you're not, you're a watcher."

This doesn't mean they are right, redefining the word gamer until it does the things you want it to do doesn't mean that I have to acknowledge the change of meaning.