Quote from: RPGPundit;788325Reaction rolls, and modifying NPC followers/hireling's morale.

As for when to do a reaction check? When a REACTION is needed for an NPC (hence the name).  It should be modified by the charisma bonus of the PC, and, potentially moreso, by the particular tact the PC is taking.

So if you have a guy who has almost no interest in gold, and the PC offers him a bribe, it doesn't matter if he has 18 Cha, he should still have almost no chance of getting a good reaction there.

But you are not allow for the fact that someone with great social skills will pick up tha the NPC has no interest in gold whereas the socially retarded player may not.

the trouble with the standard position. Roll on encounter roll for morale roll in reaction to an ask that targets the NPCs area of interest ios that it misses the most important feature of actually socially skilled people the ability to recognises the interests and concerns of the subject and adapt to them.
Rather than you offer gold, they are not interested end . It should be you hint that some sort of payment might be possible, if you get no inclination as to the desire for such a spayment you shift tack and offer other insentives.

this is the skill that lets a "fortune teller" pick up on verbal and non-verbal cues from their mark and home in on the area of interest, it's the skill that lets a guy pick up a girl in  bar, it's the skill that lets a really good saleman sell you a C-Class mercedes when you came into the shop to ask for directions....

Rather than think about when the roll Charisma we should be looking at the literature on how social skills actually play out in the real world and putting systems in place that are gamable, allow roleplay but actually place value on the skills.

Again the James Bond 007 Seductuon ruels are actually based on psychological interaction
The Look
First Line
Witty Conversation
Begining intimacies
Where and when

this tracks back to psychology and works in 007 as its part of the genre and people don't mind rolling it cos they don't want to really deal with the details of seduction. However, the same basic steps work in any social situation

Initial Reaction
Introduction
Conversation
Bring up the actual Topic you are here to discuss
Closing the Deal

this is just as relevant to RPGs as

Initiative
Stance
Choose attack
Strike
Damage

Quote from: RPGPundit;788325So if you have a guy who has almost no interest in gold, and the PC offers him a bribe, it doesn't matter if he has 18 Cha, he should still have almost no chance of getting a good reaction there.

Yeah.  This is something that perpetually bugs me about some game systems: the stipulation that certain CHA-based skills or abilities are superpowers, and making your roll comes with the expectation that the NPCs are just going to roll over for you no matter what.

Quote from: jibbajibba;788334But you are not allow for the fact that someone with great social skills will pick up tha the NPC has no interest in gold whereas the socially retarded player may not.

I don't think that necessarily follows, when translated into game mechanics.  Do you view -- or does your preferred game system view -- CHA as how good you are in social situations, or is it how well you project yourself in social situations?  It may well not mean, by definition, that you're good at picking up signals.

And being good in social situations doesn't turn you into a mind reader.  I'm pretty deft myself, but put me in the PC's situation.  The guy's just turned down my bribe, and let's say somewhat stonily.  Okay -- I know he's not feeling warm and fuzzy towards me, so stipulated.

But I don't know why.  Is it that bribes offend him, and he's just self-contained enough not to radiate anger?  Is it that the bribe I offered was pathetically small, in his opinion?  Is it that he doesn't like me personally, or doesn't care for my ethnic group, skin color, accent, age or the way I dress?  Is it that he's himself not a people person and doesn't want anyone bugging him?  Is it that he doesn't know me, and doesn't trust those he doesn't know?  Is he worried that I'm setting him up?

Could be any one of them.  Could be a number of them.  It's likely that I won't be able to find out in a 20 second casual conversation, and more likely that if I do find out, it'll be the second-to-last thing he says to me at the tag end of an increasingly heated exchange, the last thing being "Take a hike."

Quote from: Ravenswing;788484Yeah.  This is something that perpetually bugs me about some game systems: the stipulation that certain CHA-based skills or abilities are superpowers, and making your roll comes with the expectation that the NPCs are just going to roll over for you no matter what.

I don't think that necessarily follows, when translated into game mechanics.  Do you view -- or does your preferred game system view -- CHA as how good you are in social situations, or is it how well you project yourself in social situations?  It may well not mean, by definition, that you're good at picking up signals.

And being good in social situations doesn't turn you into a mind reader.  I'm pretty deft myself, but put me in the PC's situation.  The guy's just turned down my bribe, and let's say somewhat stonily.  Okay -- I know he's not feeling warm and fuzzy towards me, so stipulated.

But I don't know why.  Is it that bribes offend him, and he's just self-contained enough not to radiate anger?  Is it that the bribe I offered was pathetically small, in his opinion?  Is it that he doesn't like me personally, or doesn't care for my ethnic group, skin color, accent, age or the way I dress?  Is it that he's himself not a people person and doesn't want anyone bugging him?  Is it that he doesn't know me, and doesn't trust those he doesn't know?  Is he worried that I'm setting him up?

Could be any one of them.  Could be a number of them.  It's likely that I won't be able to find out in a 20 second casual conversation, and more likely that if I do find out, it'll be the second-to-last thing he says to me at the tag end of an increasingly heated exchange, the last thing being "Take a hike."

But that is why most systems have skills as well as a raw stat.

The bribery skills isn't a skill that makes you super good at slipping a guy a 50 it's a skill that allows you to access from his job, trade, boots, demeanour, watch, jewellery, if this guy is a guy that can be bribed and if so the approximate level a bribe would need to be.

The same is true of most social skills. These are skills that in the real world can be learned and are taught. Go into a book shop and check out how many books offer to teach you social skills from sales to seduction compared to how many thee are to teach you how to hit someone in the face

The key social skill is probably "empathy". I don't mean actually feleing the others emotions but being able to imagine yourself in their situation and extrapolate from that how they must be feeling and then leverage that into getting whatever you want.
One of the ironies of RPGs is that they are social games where we actively put ourselves in positions to explore other poeples' opinions, which is why roleplaying is used in everything from victim counselling to sales training, and yet roleplayers are definitely on the lower curve of social competancy probably because they are too bothered about rolling dice killing things and taking their stuff....

Quote from: jibbajibba;788334But you are not allow for the fact that someone with great social skills will pick up tha the NPC has no interest in gold whereas the socially retarded player may not.

Nope, that's absolutely intentional.  That's a question of player skill, and its what prevents social interaction from becoming a question of SUPER KEWL POWERZ of social manipulation.

A socially retarded player with a guy that has +3 charisma may still be able to get away with more things than a socially retarded player with -1 Charisma.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;788848Nope, that's absolutely intentional.  That's a question of player skill, and its what prevents social interaction from becoming a question of SUPER KEWL POWERZ of social manipulation.

A socially retarded player with a guy that has +3 charisma may still be able to get away with more things than a socially retarded player with -1 Charisma.

RPGPundit

And a player whose character has a high Empathy score, or Psychology skill, or is of the Mountebank class, or whatever, likewise gets more clues - just as one does not have to be a nuclear-power engineer in real life to play one in Traveller, or should get free rein to employ expertise a character does not possess.

Roleplaying is not a nuclear-engineering skill; it is, however a social skill.

If you try to make a system replace the need for the social aspect of roleplaying, you essentially get rid of roleplaying.

When you try to influence someone.

Yes, sometimes due to your character's skills (like in all cases) you will just skip a certain piece after a conversation. Sometimes, due to good RP and well used arguments, you will get a bonus to the roll. But just how I don't care that you are a chemist if your character has no Chemistry, nor do I care that you spent last 10 years practising swordfighting, to allow you to skip a to - hit roll, or that the foe will drop a shield from your attack because you totally targeted their arm and how they can hold it then (when we are playing D&D of course), nor will I allow you to just skip ahead all diplomacy  rolls because "they should listen to my arguments."

Quote from: RPGPundit;789520Roleplaying is not a nuclear-engineering skill; it is, however a social skill.

If you try to make a system replace the need for the social aspect of roleplaying, you essentially get rid of roleplaying.

I'm not trying to do that,  just trying to reflect the nature of the role in question in the same way all other aspects of it are. If your character is blind, you don't get color information; if your character has sonar, you are not hindered by darkness as are those dependent on light. What you do with the information is where volition comes in, just as in real life.

In my view the basis of all role-playing games is that player has free will to act.

In my view there is role for Charisma, Wisdom and Knowledge rolls whenever character(s) see new person, new situation or new place. My current home-brew RPG uses this roll as a stand-in to sixth sense and alarm clock for there being something more in scene.

For example Charisma and Wisdom roll is made by GM when characters meet two policemen. Charisma fails but Wisdom succeeds. They learn that one policeman has too long hair and that they both carry Colt Pythons rather than .38's. This should make it obvious to characters that those two patrolmen are actually impostors.

In my system successful charisma roll would have also given hint that their cop talk was somewhat off, too off...

I do not like the idea that player says they are searching something and then rolling Charisma or Perception for it as it soon becomes one of constantly questioning and going ever more detail to learn something. Instead I use this to show what characters learn immediately and then simply assign time for something that takes longer time.

I see the origin in Loyalty and Reaction rolls as reflecting the fact that a referee does not have a computer's capacity for keeping track of states and vectors. There are "imponderables" in NPCs. Dice rolls provide a simple answer to the question of a figure's disposition.

In short, it's less about the acting PC than about the reacting NPC.

It's essentially a similar kind of thing to encounter rolls, which likewise answer questions that are not determinate because the predicate data don't exist.

When such data do exist - "From noon to 4, Rumblegrist is here in a foul mood (mainly because he's hungry), quick to vent on any elf but curious about halflings and eager to talk Dwarf-throwing with any fellow fan of the sport." - there's less need to generate things randomly.

Quote from: Phillip;790370I see the origin in Loyalty and Reaction rolls as reflecting the fact that a referee does not have a computer's capacity for keeping track of states and vectors. There are "imponderables" in NPCs. Dice rolls provide a simple answer to the question of a figure's disposition.

In short, it's less about the acting PC than about the reacting NPC.

It's essentially a similar kind of thing to encounter rolls, which likewise answer questions that are not determinate because the predicate data don't exist.

When such data do exist - "From noon to 4, Rumblegrist is here in a foul mood (mainly because he's hungry), quick to vent on any elf but curious about halflings and eager to talk Dwarf-throwing with any fellow fan of the sport." - there's less need to generate things randomly.

Agreed.