I don't even know what 5e is anime means.

There was an anime based on AD&D - Record of the Lodoss War. There is an anime based on Lost Worlds, which is nearly as old as D&D.

Saying something is anime is saying something like TV or a novel. There are all sorts of different styles and whatnot. The only real thing that seems to bind anime is a lack of noses on characters....

Anyway, I don't think 5e is particularly OSR or even all that good. And what's annoying/amusing is all these OSR companies are rushing to convert their modules to 5e to cash in.

Then again, I'm not sure what OSR is. It seems to celebrate a D&D that never actually existed, one more like Call of Cthulhu were characters all constantly die horribly. But when I played as a kid, characters certainly died from time to time, but it wasn't that common.

I remember in some games characters got so powerful, we used Deities & Demigods as a monster manual, and I know damn well that wasn't rare. That's partly why 2e went with that Avatar stuff.

But even look at the modules EGG wrote - most are for pretty high level characters - 7-9+. Against the Giants, S4, Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure, Tharizdun. Or how Rob Kuntz's Robilar pretty much single handedly (albeit with his orc army) ransacked the Temple of Elemental Evil.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;788660jgants nails it.

D&D5e is anime.

Never thought of it that way, but perhaps it is. If so, 'tis true, 'tis pity, 'tis true. Then again, anime is mainstream among gamers born after the stone age of my generation, so it's to be expected. I don't find 5E near as superheroic as 4E (by the way, Neverwinter MMO, based on 4E? Fun game--I actually stuck with it til level 53 [so far]).

Lots of talk about hacks, dials and switches. When DMG comes out, we might find more folks on board the 5E train because the hacks are codified and easy to dispense. Players who have trust issues with a real life person but not text in a book will feel better that Ogre-GM is constrained by SOMETHING, if said GM chooses dials from the holy of holies. Just wish the release date wasn't so incredibly far off. I hate the staggered release in general, but holding the DMG for last is rough. As someone who runs more games than he plays, THAT's the tome that sells it for me.

But I digress...must get back to planning a slightly tweaked Hommlet excursion for BFRPG party this weekend.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;788660jgants nails it.

D&D5e is anime.

Never thought of it that way, but perhaps it is. If so, 'tis true, 'tis pity, 'tis true. Then again, anime is mainstream among gamers born after the stone age of my generation, so it's to be expected. I don't find 5E near as superheroic as 4E (by the way, Neverwinter MMO, based on 4E? Fun game--I actually stuck with it til level 53 [so far]).

Lots of talk about hacks, dials and switches. When DMG comes out, we might find more folks on board the 5E train because the hacks are codified and easy to dispense. Players who have trust issues with a real life person but not text in a book will feel better that Ogre-GM is constrained by SOMETHING, if said GM chooses dials from the holy of holies. Just wish the release date wasn't so incredibly far off. I hate the staggered release in general, but holding the DMG for last is rough. As someone who runs more games than he plays, THAT's the tome that sells it for me.

But I digress...must get back to planning a slightly tweaked Hommlet excursion for BFRPG party this weekend. :-)

I'm not sure what's anime about 5E as I tend to think of Anime as things like Inuyasha or Yu-Gi-Oh or more darker like Vampire Hunter D. I guess if you looked at the one Monk sub-path, it sort of resembles a Bender from Avatar: The Last Airbender animated TV series.

Other than that......yea I don't see it.

Quote from: Batman;788681I'm not sure what's anime about 5E as I tend to think of Anime as things like Inuyasha or Yu-Gi-Oh or more darker like Vampire Hunter D.

Kinda how I feel when folks toss around 'Pulp' as if it's a genre rather than a medium.
I'm guessing 'anime' is that mental animatic of the PC in mid leap/charge as he pulls off his uber-feat/charm.. all quivering action lines and wavey hair and shouty mouth.

I was using "anime fantasy" as short hand for superhero-type fantasy with the shiny "everyone can do everything, let's all have magical superpowers right from the start with no drawbacks whatsoever and forget about even trying to be all that immersion-friendly" that I see with 3e and 4e.

4e was honest about its superhero fantasy influence and tried to play to that strength. Which is why I like it if I want to run that style of fantasy.

5e tries to say it is the same game as always, but in order to buy that I have to forget about things like dwarven wizards in armor casting unlimited magic beam attacks. That doesn't wash with me.

For people that wanted an improved 3e, I can see why they like 5e because that's what it feels like to me. But as something similar in tone to AD&D - not getting that at all.

Quote from: CRKrueger;788625It's closer to OSR probably, then any WotC version of D&D but only in a horseshoes and hand-grenades sense.  

It's still superheroic as written.
It's still includes anime influence.
It's still Magic:The RPG in that it's powers-based exception rules design.
It's still based on core design elements of 3e and 4e, just not taken to idiotic extremes.

CRKrueger's explanation is probably clearer than mine - this is exactly how I think of 5e.

I just can't see 5e=superheroic, a la 4e.

The unlimited cantrips are an argument. But they can be taken out or limited easily and aren't exactly powerful.

And they are the only argument I can see for this.


A big difference between 4e and 5e in this discussion is the context of PC and Monster. In 4e you can expect to cut through masses of minion and even nonminion humanoid (including human) opponents like a butter through hot knife. In 5e, even a few kobolds or goblins can give your low level group serious trouble.

Maybe its a generational thing. I can't deny that my username is drawn from a manga. This isn't exactly indicative of my playstyle preferences, but apparently I have a different scale of what qualifies as high powered, because I really can't see it in low level 5e.

My monk, who went down not once but twice just getting to the goddamn keep in HotDQ would argue against the 'everyone is heroic" argument

5E is definitely trying to slide in somewhere between the extremes. It is a deadlier game (at least at low level; let's revisit this issue once everyone has played a few sessions with 5-10th level characters!). On the other hand, the comment above about starting play with a dwarf wizard in heavy armor who shoots unlimited pew-pew beams of laser awesomeness is also perfectly fair. That is a tongue in cheek but exact description of a first level character in 5E. And I agree it is not cool and not what interests me about D&D, generally.

Quote from: jgants;788593Any reason someone can give about how 3e and 4e were lousy for OSR-style games (which was the whole reason for the OSR to begin with) is also applicable to 5e.

Very difficult to play 3E without a grid. Impossible to play 4E without it. Easy to play 5E theatre of the mind. Huge difference right there.

Character generation in 5E is far faster and easier. Nobody has to parse a big list of skills of feats, spend skill points, or consider feat dependencies.

And combats take 10-15 minutes instead of 30 to 90 minutes. Also a huge difference.

Quote from: jgants;788593It may be toned down a bit from 4e, and have rules have been streamlined to avoid the drudgery of 3e, but the PCs in 5e still feel and play like PCs from 3e or 4e - loaded up with special skills, special powers, nearly everyone has magic, and there are no disadvantages or opportunities for instant death anywhere.

1st level 5E out of the box is lethal. A couple hits and you're dead. I'm betting the Lost Mines of Phandelver will chalk up a huge number of PC deaths, including TPKs, when all is said and done. I doubt you could say that for most of the introductory 3E adventures, or any of the 4E adventures.

Is it exactly like AD&D? No, but it checks the essential boxes that make for old-school D&D for me:

• No need of minis or grid.


• Easy and fast character generation.


• Brisk combat.


• Traditional character classes.

What the hell is a "frenemy" anyway?

Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;788707What the hell is a "frenemy" anyway?

It's like our alliance with many of our Arab allies to fight ISIS right now.  When ISIS is done, they'll go back to being our enemies.

Quote from: jgants;788688I was using "anime fantasy" as short hand for superhero-type fantasy with the shiny "everyone can do everything, let's all have magical superpowers right from the start with no drawbacks whatsoever and forget about even trying to be all that immersion-friendly" that I see with 3e and 4e.

Meh, there are plenty of drawbacks when looking at classes in both 3E and 4E. The question is, did / do DMs play them up or let them slide? For example, I never tell my players which monsters are "Minions" and laugh heartily when they spend their precious resources (like encounter or daily powers Or effects) cutting down 1 HP mooks or low-hp guys. Further, each class has several disadvantages when it comes to certain situations. In 4E, defenders have a very hard time doing their thang against ranged opponents. So if you have a LOT of ranged / artillery monsters all hiding up on balconies and behind bluffs that are just pelting your PCs, Defenders really don't do much except get frustrated. Not to mention targeting their weaker defenses.

Further, looking at 3E there are plenty of ways to penalize or otherwise play up PC disadvantages, largely because all the classes work on different daily scales. What's funny is throwing the BBEG or a very difficult encounter 1st thing in the morning and then watching the players tackle every single encounter from then on with a light hand on resources because they're fearful they'll run out quickly. OR just not letting them rest often and/or disrupting their rest so that spellcasters and other daily-limited classes can't get a re-charge.

Another thing is just targeting Surges in 4E. If I want my players to get really scared of an encounter I just start draining surges per round. This can be due to environmental effects like a poisoning miasma or necrotic aura or even something natural like air-born spores of deadly mold. Stuff like that while they're fighting monsters and quickly being drained of their one overall shared resource effectively cuts down on any sort of Super-Heroic Action Hero vibe the players initially started out with.  

Quote from: jgants;7886884e was honest about its superhero fantasy influence and tried to play to that strength. Which is why I like it if I want to run that style of fantasy.

I think one can do that, yes. However I also feel it's how a group approaches the system and the stories they want to tell. I can easily do dark, gothic horror and gritty with 4E it just takes a tiny bit of tweaking and creating fun things like new disease tracks. I love seeing the look of fear when their character is slowly being turned into a vampire because they've contracted Vampirism and no one knows how to cure it. Muhahaha. Same thing with Mummy Rot or Lycanthropy. Also, you can just say eveyone starts with far fewer Surges per day OR restrict how many surges they get when they rest.

In Ravenloft maybe Radiant powers are instantly weakened due to the overall dark and evil plane's influence while Necrotic powers are a bit amplified. Sure makes it harder to be super-bad ass with all the Radiant Mafia shenanigans going on.

Quote from: jgants;7886885e tries to say it is the same game as always, but in order to buy that I have to forget about things like dwarven wizards in armor casting unlimited magic beam attacks. That doesn't wash with me.

I think it's working as intended to be honest. Each DM / Group going into 5E will have to make decisions based on how they want it to play. Default will be a sort of 3E - 4E hybrid with some older ideals thrown in (like no magic shops, flat math, winging encounter design). If a DM / Group wants a different feel from an older version they're going to have to make adjustments that fit that.

For example:

• Dwarves cannot be wizards
• No multiclassing
• Paladins must be Lawful Good
• Cantrips are not at-will, instead being Ability mod (based on class) + 2 or 3 / day
• Healing is limited to 1 hp per level per long rest. If your in an Inn or other comfortable location where you can get care then maybe level + Con per long rest.

The DMG isn't out yet so we don't know what sort of ideas they'll have to change out stuff like this to give us a more old-school vibe but it's not terribly difficult to alter to make it work to older versions. And for the most part I think changing the system to this is a lot easier  than 3E or 4E. I could limit cantrips in 5E to a few per day and it wouldn't overly affect the system or adventure much but doing so with 4E would put a pretty strong strain on spellcasters overall.

Quote from: jgants;788688For people that wanted an improved 3e, I can see why they like 5e because that's what it feels like to me. But as something similar in tone to AD&D - not getting that at all.

By default, I can see why and I agree that initially looking at the rules it appears as though a paired down 3E with some 4E bells and whistles. I feel, however, the tone of the system and the way in which the game approaches PCs and their interaction with the world is FAR more TSR version than WotC has been in since they've acquired the D&D title. For example I think the focus on combat has been severely lessened, shifting more towards in-game goals and interests. Players who have bonds and flaws and things going on want to explore these elements farther instead of just picking a background that gives a numerical bonus on a skill like 4E did.

Then there's the fact that magical items are now completely void of character progression. Even if this was an option in 4E, the overall consensus of people discussing 4E was that players made lists and DMs gave the players items from those lists (which is something I've only heard, never seen or done myself nor understand WHY a DM would do such a thing). But regardless, the notion that magical items are a dime a dozen are over and getting even a +1 dagger or shield is something to be prized in 5E and not something you hold onto so you can sell later at a 40% it's market value.

Then there's the focus on less math and less "fiddly bits" and more on quick action and combts. Resolution for combat has dwindled for our group to about 10 minutes a battle. 20 if they're rolling bad. In v3.5 and 4E our combats generally lasted about 40 to 45 minutes depending. So I think that part too is also harkening back to TSR days where combat was sort of a thing you got into when all else failed and it was completed quickly to get back to the story.

Obviously it comes down to where your threshold lies. For myself, I see the 4E elements involved with the game and acknowledge them however I don't think it plays anything remotely like 4E despite it's major influences. Maybe it's because it lacks the AEDU structure or maybe because I don't feel the classes are unique enough or because all their roles are gone? I'm not totally sure. I do think it plays a lot like a 3E-lite or more TSR-ish because of the elements I described.

Quote from: jgants;7886885e tries to say it is the same game as always, but in order to buy that I have to forget about things like dwarven wizards in armor casting unlimited magic beam attacks. That doesn't wash with me.

Let's go back to the source for D&D's dwarves, shall we?

Quote from: Pg 14 of my copyThe dwarves of yore made mighty spells
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep where dark things sleep
In hollow halls beneath the fells

Quote from: Pg 43Then they brought up their ponies, and carried away the pots of gold, and buried them very secretly not far from the track by the river, putting a great many spells over them, just in case they ever had the chance to come back and recover them...

To say nothing of how magic-heavy dwarves are in mythology.

And you know what, if you don't want dwarves doing magic, you disallow it at your table like a fucking grownup, just like I allow it when I play AD&D because I don't see any logical reason why a sapient race shouldn't be able to learn magic if they like. And you know what, people still generally seldom play dwarven wizards.

And you know what else is D&D? Cantrips. They've been in every edition, eventually. Adding some combat utility to them is... somewhat more modern, I admit, but you know what you do if that really chaps your ass? Don't use them, or make them first level spells, or just accept that some players like the idea of a magic-user that actually uses magic.