Quote from: jrientsMy heart is broken.  

If it makes you feel any better,  I don't think it would have been very good from a d20 System "crunch" standpoint. We're talking Chaosium's Dragon Lords of Melnibone here. In all fairness though I don't think the writers at EmpCho had anything other than an early draft of the new PHB to work with; I remember some game mechanics being based solely on rumors they'd seen on Eric Noah's 3E News page.

Quote from: YamoGood for them for pissing on the bandwagon as it passes by.

Somebody's got to.

You're wrong, and even if you were right this is a particularly stupid case. Forget about "D20" for a second. What we're talking about here is a game losing the main feature of its identity out of nothing but spite for another game.  This is just monumental stupidity in its purest, most distilled form.

Its like as if out of spite for Unknown Armies, Call of Cthulhu stopped having a SAN stat or magic.
Its like out of spite for Shadowrun, the new Cyberpunk didn't have cyberwear.

Its that level of pointless stupid. Its one of the very very best examples of cutting off your nose to spite your face I've ever seen.

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Quote from: RPGPunditIts that level of pointless stupid. Its one of the very very best examples of cutting off your nose to spite your face I've ever seen.

As opposed to what? Seems to me that releasing a game that isn't the one you want/like would be a better example of that.

Not liking the system is more than reason enough to not use it. I can respect that decision.

Just so we're all clear, I'm not saying EmpCho pulled the plug because they disliked the d20 System itself. Instead they were afraid of the OGL.

Quote from: YamoAs opposed to what? Seems to me that releasing a game that isn't the one you want/like would be a better example of that.

Not liking the system is more than reason enough to not use it. I can respect that decision.

Eh, but if they didn't like the system simply because it was popular, that's a stupid reason not to do it. Very stupid, and juvenile. Besides, Arduin was always more an add-on for D&D even from its beginning; making an Arduin sourcebook of crunch for d20 (something like the new Unearthed Arcana) would've been a win-win situation, and in keeping with Arduin's history.

Quote from: William G. GruffJust so we're all clear, I'm not saying EmpCho pulled the plug because they disliked the d20 System itself. Instead they were afraid of the OGL.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

Quote from: William G. GruffJust so we're all clear, I'm not saying EmpCho pulled the plug because they disliked the d20 System itself. Instead they were afraid of the OGL.

Weird. DId they cite any specific issues that they had with it?

Quote from: YamoWeird. DId they cite any specific issues that they had with it?

I don't think so. It was mostly just "we'll lose control of our intellectual property rights" paranoia without any particular examples.

Quote from: William G. GruffI don't think so. It was mostly just "we'll lose control of our intellectual property rights" paranoia without any particular examples.

PEG (or whatever company it was that own deadlands before PEG) has a similar reaction. Some folks were jittery about the whole deal in the early days.

Hell, my point is that if they really despised OGL/D20, they ought to have released for another system, something for Hackmaster, perhaps.

But the fact is they DID release a D20 product, but they made it virtually the opposite of what Arduin's tradition was all about.

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Quote from: RPGPunditWhat a gang of cunts.  They have utterly betrayed the history of this incredible game, just because they're a gang of big-headed heretics out to prove a point about hating D20. Don't they realize that it is WAY more against the spirit of Arduin to take that game title and turn it into something that's all setting, then it would be to make it D20.  Dave must be rolling in his grave.

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Well, actually knowing the people behind the product. . .

1. A d20 Arduin product was considered. As was a BRP-derived Arduin product.

CyberGames (who owned Emperor's Chocie for a bit) effectively sat around with their thumb up their butt until the best window of opportunity was for a financially viable d20 Arduin had closed. By the time that EmpCho was on their own and had recovered from the Cybergames collapse, the d20 market had leveled off (i.e., just because a book had the d20 logo on it, didn't mean that it would sell well).

In the end, neither option was pursued, I'm told, because. . .

2. The reason that a systemless product was decided upon in the end was because the EmpCho team felt that three currently supported systems for Arduin was enough (at the time the world book was published, Empcho was still printing alll three Arduin rules sets, including the original Grimoire, The Arduin Adventure, and The Compleat Arduin).

3. The EmpCho folks inherited Dave's entire library of unpublished Arduin material (literally). The World Book was largely transcribed from longhand notebooks of setting detail penned by Dave Hargrave. Many of Dave's rules had made it into print in the past, but precious little of his setting information had ever been published -- the EmpCho folks (many of who actually worked on the original Arduin material) wanted to make the setting available.

Hmm. I see. Its a little less boneheaded now, but still.  They really couldn't expect to get a lot of coverage for the setting, if the system they're using is still from the early 90s and not in a new edition.  They should still have gone with an OGL book, printed a shitload of cool new crunch, and then done the setting.

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Quote from: RPGPunditHmm. I see. Its a little less boneheaded now, but still.  They really couldn't expect to get a lot of coverage for the setting, if the system they're using is still from the early 90s and not in a new edition.  They should still have gone with an OGL book, printed a shitload of cool new crunch, and then done the setting.

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I think that the The Worldbook of Khaas was printed in extremely limited numbers and, not published to draw in new fans, but to cater to existing ones (who were apparently happy with the existing Arduin rules, but wanted more setting coverage). And honestly, looking back at Dave's own publishing  history, I think that doing anything else would have set him spinning in his grave

Many people had been waiting for the setting for nigh on thirty years, and I'm not sure that they would have been very happy with yet another largely setting-bereft rule book. I think the plan is/was to get the setting out there first and then deliver the new rules (though I haven't spoken to George since Spring, so my memory may be a bit fuzzy on that front).

That said, I do recall him saying that new rules were being worked on and that they'd be a more up to date re-iterration of the original Grimoire rules (i.e., they'd be unified, streamlined, etc). Whether they'll be released under an open license or when/if they'll be released, I do not know.

Yeah, Arduin was always the Velvet Underground of RPGs...

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