Cathal, I'll just add that I like Eddings' Belgariad a lot. Back when it first came out, and still during my most-recent re-read last year. It may not have "monsters" for game inspiration, but it can give you a heck of a lot of inspiration at world-building!

I also enjoy most of Appendix N. (Still can't say that I've read it all.) "Grand Masters" earned their titles for a reason.

Chacun à son goût is a perfectly valid response, but you'll have to make up your own mind. I wish you an eye-opening journey.

Quote from: Baron on April 23, 2023, 07:02:05 PM
Cathal, I'll just add that I like Eddings' Belgariad a lot. Back when it first came out, and still during my most-recent re-read last year. It may not have "monsters" for game inspiration, but it can give you a heck of a lot of inspiration at world-building!

I'll agree that Eddings is great.  He's enormously fun to read, and makes very entertaining characters and dialogue.  One of my favorite authors.  I don't think I'd consider him to be Appendix N type material though.  The setting, tone, and action don't really fit what you can do with D&D rules.

Quote from: Mishihari on April 24, 2023, 01:17:04 AM

Quote from: Baron on April 23, 2023, 07:02:05 PM
Cathal, I'll just add that I like Eddings' Belgariad a lot. Back when it first came out, and still during my most-recent re-read last year. It may not have "monsters" for game inspiration, but it can give you a heck of a lot of inspiration at world-building!

I'll agree that Eddings is great.  He's enormously fun to read, and makes very entertaining characters and dialogue.  One of my favorite authors.  I don't think I'd consider him to be Appendix N type material though.  The setting, tone, and action don't really fit what you can do with D&D rules.

On the subject of "good, but not really Appendix N", I'd throw in Lloyd Alexander's "Chronicles of Prydain". They're more in the Tolkien/Lewis vein of fantasy than the Howard/Leiber one, and they're targeted at a younger audience (much in the same way that the Narnia books are), but I recommend them highly nevertheless. Great inspiration material if you want to incorporate a more authentic Anglo-Celtic tone into your D&D.

As a very outside pick, there's a two-book series by an author named J. Gregory Keyes, comprised of "Waterborn" and "Blackgod", which I really like. They're a bit hard to find, but also one of my favorite representations of what it would be like if a shamanistic, nature-worshipping religion was actually true. Can't speak to the quality of any of his other books.

Others have mentioned David Gemmel. I'd recommend the first two books of his "Stones of Power" series, "Ghost King" and "The Last Sword of Power". Together they make up an unusual, almost science-fantasy retelling of the story of Uther Pendragon.

Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2023, 05:55:45 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on April 23, 2023, 04:24:52 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2023, 03:28:29 PM

Quote from: Jason Coplen on April 23, 2023, 11:24:31 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on April 22, 2023, 08:39:31 PM
A few years ago I decided to try and reach a bunch of the Appendix N stuff I had never read before, just for fun & edification.  I found most of it overrated and disappointing.  But it's all a matter of taste.  Tolkien is my all-time favorite author.  I like Lovecraft a lot too.  Can't stand Leiber.  CAS is decent, better than Vance, who is slightly better than Saberhagen.  Poul Anderson is like a ridiculous Fast & Furious movie in novel form.  Moorcock?  Elric is whiny and annoying, like Thomas Covenant with a sword.  Conan is one of my favorite fictional characters but the stories, Howard or otherwise, vary widely in quality.

David Gemmel?  Mediocre.  Joe Abercrombie?  Worse than mediocre.  GRRM?  Too verbose; can't finish a story.  I liked David Eddings back in the day but haven't re-read the stuff.  Robert Jordan is a hack.  Haven't read Brandon Sanderson because I've no interest in reading multiple books approaching 1000 pages to finish a series.  Terry Brooks is a knock-off retroclone of Tolkien, especially the first Shannara trilogy.  I've read lots of other stuff and too much D&D and Warhammer fiction, most of which is middling at best, but I'll stop here.

But all this being said, I'm still glad to have at least sampled all these writers.  They're cool for getting inspiration and seeing what inspired D&D.

And if you're really into learning the history of Appendix N and its authors, the Goodman Games website includes regular features on the books and authors of Appendix N.

I'm with you. Most of Appendix N is garbage along the lines of the fiction Gygax wrote. Some good ideas, but poor writing outside of CAS, Howard, Lovecraft, Tolkien, Moorcock (his Corum books are easily his best), Zelazny, and maybe a couple more. I usually skip threads about the appendix N writers due to me seeing most of them as junk - same with alignment arguments.

I tried one Sanderson book several years back and I gave up in under 20 pages. Nothing in it interested me and I found the writing to be abysmal.

Vance's best stuff, by far, is his Demon Princes novels. Dying Earth is boring. I can't think of any protagonist from it that is even likable.

Greetings!

Interesting! I have read that Brandon Sanderson seems to be viewed as an absolute genius. LEGIONS of fans that support and admire him.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Legions of fans drink Miller Lite and like McDonalds.  That hardly makes them good.  So if you like generic, super-sized fantasy, by all means enjoy your Brandon Sanderson.

*Laughing* So true, huh, my friend? Yeah, I'm definitely not a fan of Miller Lite or McDonalds. Generic, super-sized fantasy! *Laughing* I don't know much about Brandon Sanderson. I imagine though there are many of the more recent authors that I am clueless about.

Your commentary about many of the Appendix N authors being mediocre--that kind of reminded me, I remember reading Moorcock as an adolescent, and I then thought that Moorcock was awesome and brilliant!

However, as an adult, coming back to Moorcock many years later, I was relatively unimpressed.

In contrast, I have to say, Tolkien has maintained the stronghold of brilliance, wondrous joy, and inspiration. I first read The Hobbit, when I was in the 5th Grade, and soon followed by reading the Lord of the Rings, and then, the Silmarillion. In all the years since, Tolkien has endured as an inspiration!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I'm partly with you on Moorcock. As a teen he was the shit! Now that I've passed 50 I don't like him nearly as well. I find the first Corum trilogy has held up, but the rest has all dropped from my teenage impression. Hawkmoon is almost unreadable drek. I'm saddened, but it is what it is.

Tolkien is much better now that I'm older. As a teen he plodded along, but now I really see his shine. Maybe as a teen he was too challenging for my reading level. Don't know for sure.

I recently went back to reading what did it for me as a teenager, alas, not many tales hold up.

I feel like I need to correct myself on Eddings I read only one book, Diamond Throne, and found it one of the worst fantasy books I've ever read. Feels like a 12yo writing and I think he went more or less public saying he started writing because he found a business opportunity.

However, he might have other great books that I haven't read, so I shouldn't generalize.

Same for Abercrombie, although his first book is miles ahead of Eddings. He has a big fanbase and I bet his other books are better than his first.

Moorcock, I've read multiple times, I still enjoy it. People are still making a huge success with Elric knockoffs to this day with Witcher and House of the Dragon. Same for Tolkien, although his series is a failure for different reasons.

David Gemmel is a pleasant surprise for me. I get the impression his magic system might have influenced MtG, and maybe his portals to hell influenced Elder Scrolls.

Many of the best authors - or at elast theri influences - survive the test of time, but some do not. Algernon Blackwoods, for example, seems to be partly forgotten.

Quote from: Ruprecht on April 23, 2023, 12:10:51 AM
I can't recommend the Kane books enough, if you can find them.

Kane is readily available on Kindle. Not a collector's choice, but perfectly viable for reading.

And yes, get these books!

Quote from: Jason Coplen on April 24, 2023, 08:52:22 AM

Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2023, 05:55:45 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on April 23, 2023, 04:24:52 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2023, 03:28:29 PM

Quote from: Jason Coplen on April 23, 2023, 11:24:31 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on April 22, 2023, 08:39:31 PM
A few years ago I decided to try and reach a bunch of the Appendix N stuff I had never read before, just for fun & edification.  I found most of it overrated and disappointing.  But it's all a matter of taste.  Tolkien is my all-time favorite author.  I like Lovecraft a lot too.  Can't stand Leiber.  CAS is decent, better than Vance, who is slightly better than Saberhagen.  Poul Anderson is like a ridiculous Fast & Furious movie in novel form.  Moorcock?  Elric is whiny and annoying, like Thomas Covenant with a sword.  Conan is one of my favorite fictional characters but the stories, Howard or otherwise, vary widely in quality.

David Gemmel?  Mediocre.  Joe Abercrombie?  Worse than mediocre.  GRRM?  Too verbose; can't finish a story.  I liked David Eddings back in the day but haven't re-read the stuff.  Robert Jordan is a hack.  Haven't read Brandon Sanderson because I've no interest in reading multiple books approaching 1000 pages to finish a series.  Terry Brooks is a knock-off retroclone of Tolkien, especially the first Shannara trilogy.  I've read lots of other stuff and too much D&D and Warhammer fiction, most of which is middling at best, but I'll stop here.

But all this being said, I'm still glad to have at least sampled all these writers.  They're cool for getting inspiration and seeing what inspired D&D.

And if you're really into learning the history of Appendix N and its authors, the Goodman Games website includes regular features on the books and authors of Appendix N.

I'm with you. Most of Appendix N is garbage along the lines of the fiction Gygax wrote. Some good ideas, but poor writing outside of CAS, Howard, Lovecraft, Tolkien, Moorcock (his Corum books are easily his best), Zelazny, and maybe a couple more. I usually skip threads about the appendix N writers due to me seeing most of them as junk - same with alignment arguments.

I tried one Sanderson book several years back and I gave up in under 20 pages. Nothing in it interested me and I found the writing to be abysmal.

Vance's best stuff, by far, is his Demon Princes novels. Dying Earth is boring. I can't think of any protagonist from it that is even likable.

Greetings!

Interesting! I have read that Brandon Sanderson seems to be viewed as an absolute genius. LEGIONS of fans that support and admire him.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Legions of fans drink Miller Lite and like McDonalds.  That hardly makes them good.  So if you like generic, super-sized fantasy, by all means enjoy your Brandon Sanderson.

*Laughing* So true, huh, my friend? Yeah, I'm definitely not a fan of Miller Lite or McDonalds. Generic, super-sized fantasy! *Laughing* I don't know much about Brandon Sanderson. I imagine though there are many of the more recent authors that I am clueless about.

Your commentary about many of the Appendix N authors being mediocre--that kind of reminded me, I remember reading Moorcock as an adolescent, and I then thought that Moorcock was awesome and brilliant!

However, as an adult, coming back to Moorcock many years later, I was relatively unimpressed.

In contrast, I have to say, Tolkien has maintained the stronghold of brilliance, wondrous joy, and inspiration. I first read The Hobbit, when I was in the 5th Grade, and soon followed by reading the Lord of the Rings, and then, the Silmarillion. In all the years since, Tolkien has endured as an inspiration!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I'm partly with you on Moorcock. As a teen he was the shit! Now that I've passed 50 I don't like him nearly as well. I find the first Corum trilogy has held up, but the rest has all dropped from my teenage impression. Hawkmoon is almost unreadable drek. I'm saddened, but it is what it is.

Tolkien is much better now that I'm older. As a teen he plodded along, but now I really see his shine. Maybe as a teen he was too challenging for my reading level. Don't know for sure.

I recently went back to reading what did it for me as a teenager, alas, not many tales hold up.

Yes, this is definitely a thing and I think it speaks to one's intellectual growth, changing tastes, and simple exposure to more things over time.  A lot of books I loved as a teen I can't even read now.  And back then (the 80s) fantasy was exploding, but it was still kind of niche so I was reading all kinds of stuff and liked most of it, in part because I think I related it to D&D, which some of it (i.e. Dragonlance), of course was.  Hell, I even wrote my own novelized versions of our D&D campaigns BEFORE Dragonlance was published, as I suspect many of us older folks did in those heady pre-social media days when we made our own entertainment.

Now, when I go back to these books, I tend to be more critical about writing, plot, character development, etc.  I still love Tolkien in part because I appreciate the depth of the history and lore and the erudition of the author, being an academic myself.  I later realized that it was actually Tolkien who sparked my love of history.  I started college as an English major with hopes of becoming a novelist, but soon realized I liked history more and it was that aspect of LOTR, etc. that had so grabbed me.  For me, no one else really comes close to him in this respect.  I mean you can read the Harry Potter books and there's really no comparison in the depth & texture of the writing, even if you're just talking about The Hobbit. 

But I still like to try new authors, including Appendix N folks I haven't read before, because you never know until you read them yourself.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 24, 2023, 09:19:19 AM
I feel like I need to correct myself on Eddings I read only one book, Diamond Throne, and found it one of the worst fantasy books I've ever read. Feels like a 12yo writing and I think he went more or less public saying he started writing because he found a business opportunity.

He might have other great books that I haven't read, so I shouldn't generalize.

Same for Abercrombie, although his first book is miles ahead of Eddings. He has a big fanbase and I bet his other books are better than his first.

Moorcock, I've read multiple times, I still enjoy it. People are still making a huge success with Elric knockoffs to this day with Witcher and House of the Dragon. Same for Tolkien, although his series is a failure for different reasons.

Many of the best authors survive the test of time, but some do not. Algernon Blackwoods, for example, seems to be partly forgotten.

Funny thing about Abercrombie.  I've read the awful book The Blade Itself three fucking times based on recommendations from others because I kept forgetting I had read it.  Then I moved and found all these copies in various boxes of books.  So I donated them all to a local free library:)

Quote from: Persimmon on April 24, 2023, 09:26:15 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 24, 2023, 09:19:19 AM
I feel like I need to correct myself on Eddings I read only one book, Diamond Throne, and found it one of the worst fantasy books I've ever read. Feels like a 12yo writing and I think he went more or less public saying he started writing because he found a business opportunity.

He might have other great books that I haven't read, so I shouldn't generalize.

Same for Abercrombie, although his first book is miles ahead of Eddings. He has a big fanbase and I bet his other books are better than his first.

Moorcock, I've read multiple times, I still enjoy it. People are still making a huge success with Elric knockoffs to this day with Witcher and House of the Dragon. Same for Tolkien, although his series is a failure for different reasons.

Many of the best authors survive the test of time, but some do not. Algernon Blackwoods, for example, seems to be partly forgotten.

Funny thing about Abercrombie.  I've read the awful book The Blade Itself three fucking times based on recommendations from others because I kept forgetting I had read it.  Then I moved and found all these copies in various boxes of books.  So I donated them all to a local free library:)

You must hate the local library. 

Quote from: Mishihari on April 24, 2023, 01:17:04 AM

Quote from: Baron on April 23, 2023, 07:02:05 PM
Cathal, I'll just add that I like Eddings' Belgariad a lot. Back when it first came out, and still during my most-recent re-read last year. It may not have "monsters" for game inspiration, but it can give you a heck of a lot of inspiration at world-building!

I'll agree that Eddings is great.  He's enormously fun to read, and makes very entertaining characters and dialogue.  One of my favorite authors.  I don't think I'd consider him to be Appendix N type material though.  The setting, tone, and action don't really fit what you can do with D&D rules.

Pretty much the only reason to read Eddings is the dialogue and the characters.  I say this as someone that has read and enjoyed his 4 major series multiple times.   As a story teller, there isn't any there, there. Don't bother with his last series.  It's the basics of his same story, stripped of interesting dialogue and any interesting character, like someone was writing bad fan fiction of his own works.

Most fantasy fiction isn't great literature.  Sometimes, I just want an easy read.  In fact, the last time I reread the Belgariad was when I was recovering from Covid.  If I drifted off to sleep and missed a section, it didn't really matter.  I know how it goes. I'm just enjoying Silk being Silk, and so on.  I get that television serves that role for some people, but I'd usually rather read.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 24, 2023, 09:56:52 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on April 24, 2023, 01:17:04 AM

Quote from: Baron on April 23, 2023, 07:02:05 PM
Cathal, I'll just add that I like Eddings' Belgariad a lot. Back when it first came out, and still during my most-recent re-read last year. It may not have "monsters" for game inspiration, but it can give you a heck of a lot of inspiration at world-building!

I'll agree that Eddings is great.  He's enormously fun to read, and makes very entertaining characters and dialogue.  One of my favorite authors.  I don't think I'd consider him to be Appendix N type material though.  The setting, tone, and action don't really fit what you can do with D&D rules.

Pretty much the only reason to read Eddings is the dialogue and the characters.  I say this as someone that has read and enjoyed his 4 major series multiple times.   As a story teller, there isn't any there, there. Don't bother with his last series.  It's the basics of his same story, stripped of interesting dialogue and any interesting character, like someone was writing bad fan fiction of his own works.

Most fantasy fiction isn't great literature.  Sometimes, I just want an easy read.  In fact, the last time I reread the Belgariad was when I was recovering from Covid.  If I drifted off to sleep and missed a section, it didn't really matter.  I know how it goes. I'm just enjoying Silk being Silk, and so on.  I get that television serves that role for some people, but I'd usually rather read.

Eddings has been a weird case for me. I read the Belgeriad when it came out an loved it. I was in HS.

In the 90s, ie mid-to-late 20s I read it again and wondered why I loved it.

Then I read it again around 40, enjoyed it, and saw a lot in it.

I wonder how I'd react if I read it again in my 50s.

Quote from: PulpHerb on April 24, 2023, 11:17:08 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 24, 2023, 09:56:52 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on April 24, 2023, 01:17:04 AM

Quote from: Baron on April 23, 2023, 07:02:05 PM
Cathal, I'll just add that I like Eddings' Belgariad a lot. Back when it first came out, and still during my most-recent re-read last year. It may not have "monsters" for game inspiration, but it can give you a heck of a lot of inspiration at world-building!

I'll agree that Eddings is great.  He's enormously fun to read, and makes very entertaining characters and dialogue.  One of my favorite authors.  I don't think I'd consider him to be Appendix N type material though.  The setting, tone, and action don't really fit what you can do with D&D rules.

Pretty much the only reason to read Eddings is the dialogue and the characters.  I say this as someone that has read and enjoyed his 4 major series multiple times.   As a story teller, there isn't any there, there. Don't bother with his last series.  It's the basics of his same story, stripped of interesting dialogue and any interesting character, like someone was writing bad fan fiction of his own works.

Most fantasy fiction isn't great literature.  Sometimes, I just want an easy read.  In fact, the last time I reread the Belgariad was when I was recovering from Covid.  If I drifted off to sleep and missed a section, it didn't really matter.  I know how it goes. I'm just enjoying Silk being Silk, and so on.  I get that television serves that role for some people, but I'd usually rather read.

Eddings has been a weird case for me. I read the Belgeriad when it came out an loved it. I was in HS.

In the 90s, ie mid-to-late 20s I read it again and wondered why I loved it.

Then I read it again around 40, enjoyed it, and saw a lot in it.

I wonder how I'd react if I read it again in my 50s.

I'm currently reading it again, this time to my 12 year old daughter as her bedtime book, a chapter at a time.  Her reactions to the Shakespeare-esque romances have been a lot of fun to watch.  "Oh, that's so cringy!"  "I can skip it if you like."  "NOOO!"

I'll echo the others here:



The Broken Sword has a real grasp on the Norse and other legends that are really inspirational. It's very tragic though.
For something much lighter, read the Hobbit

Moorcock definitely needs to be read as a teenager. Preferably disaffected and convinced of one's own importance.

Quote from: S'mon on April 24, 2023, 02:55:36 PM
Moorcock definitely needs to be read as a teenager. Preferably disaffected and convinced of one's own importance.

Greetings!

Strange how Moorcock has such a profound effect upon adolescent readers--and yet, adult readers have generally reacted to Moorcock as being...distinctly uninspiring and mediocre. *Laughing*

I also fondly remember Eddings, and the Belgariad series. I enjoyed it immensely. However, as the years went on, and he came out with new series, I found his writing to be...shallow and uninteresting. Not to be too harsh, as I was hugely inspired by his characters, dialogue, and storytelling in the first series, but afterwards, the Diamond Throne thingy, yeah. Just "Heh".

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK