Hello!
Let me tell you that a grew up in the 90s, never played any RPG until recently. Yet I grew up with Conan, Beastmaster, Batman, Willow, Lord of the Ring, Legend, Masters of the Universe, Highlander, John Carter, The Chronicles of Riddick, Tarzan. I'm not a religious person, but Samson was other character I like, and some other I don't remember right now. I never related it to Swords and Sorcery/Planet until now, and everything was a movie not a book ::) except for a few, which I read.
As you can tell, it's a topic I like (Actually I have a Ferret like Beastmaster, I was very influenced by that as a child.). Although I liked the movie Lord of the Ring, I have always liked the Sword and Sorcery/Planet style more (Now that I can identify it).
As a beginner in the RPG world, I feel very exhausted with some many books and recommendations. I'm aware of Appendix N from Gygax and some other from Holmes and Moldvay. I don't remember if Mentzer have a similar section.
When I look for recommendation one is Howard "Conan" and when I look for Conan there are thousands of books and I don't know which is which. Other authors L. Sprague de Camp, Lin Carter, Fritz Leiber tons of books each.
My main question is:
1) If I want to be up to speed with books that Gary used. What Omnibus or Collections of different authors can I read? Give a short list please. ;D
if you have time to reply:
2) What new authors/books of Sword and Sorcery/Planet you recommend? (I tried to search for new books, what I found was weird books garbage woke/feminist)
3) I'm thinking to buy and read this book "Appendix N: The Eldritch Roots of Dungeons and Dragons Paperback by Peter Bebergal". Your thoughts?
Thank you all for the help!
I've read and written about Appendix N more or less extensively. I often review books in my blog. What I'll share below is my personal taste. All abbreviations of famous fantasy authors.
Appendix N: Start with REH, JRRT, HPL. Vance might be the most "gygaxian", Leieber is very D&Dish, I also like Andre Norton, and The Broken Sword is superb (although 3h3L is more D&Dish). Lord Dunsany is amazing too.
Non-appendix N: the greatest omission is CAS; it is a must read. I also like LeGuin and Borges (not exactly D&Dish). These three are recommended in Moldvay.
Modern stuff: I really like GRRM. I'm reading David Gemmel - it is awesome. Witcher is... good, not great. Same for Glen Cook - but Gygax liked it. I disliked the first Abecrombie and found Eddings exceptionally boring.
Sword and Sorcery: any Conan, Lieber (Fafhrd and grey mouser) or CAS collection will do. Here are some short stories I liked and you can probably find online: Red Nails, The Vaults of Yoh-Vombis, Lean Times in Lankhmar, The Call of Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep, The City of the Singing Flame, The Hoard of the Gibbelins.
As Obi-Wan Kenobi says, "You've taken your first step into a wider world." I can talk about classic fantasy lit for days, but I'll try to keep it succinct.
For Conan, I personally have only read the Howard stories. Others might be able to give you recommendations for the other authors, but I'm a bit of a purist. More importantly, don't restrict your Howard reading to just Conan. For my money, his Solomon Kane stories represent his finest work, and the Kull of Atlantis and Bran Mak Morn series are worthwhile as well. One thing to watch out with Howard is that if you buy older printings of the Conan stories, they're often versions that have been re-written or edited by other authors (particularly L. Sprague De Camp). For the real McCoy, I recommend the recent collections published by Del Rey, which have all of the original Howard stories unabridged in a nice package.
https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Conan-Cimmerian-Original-Adventures/dp/0345461517/ref=pd_bxgy_sccl_2/137-5441181-7594221?pd_rd_w=VfnOI&content-id=amzn1.sym.26a5c67f-1a30-486b-bb90-b523ad38d5a0&pf_rd_p=26a5c67f-1a30-486b-bb90-b523ad38d5a0&pf_rd_r=2KYC1Y8FS2AV3CEENR2R&pd_rd_wg=AwTjA&pd_rd_r=94ee725a-3994-4ea5-a9fc-a017b8458056&pd_rd_i=0345461517&psc=1
After Howard, I recommend you move on to Fritz Leiber, particularly his "Swords" series AKA Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. Leiber is not only my favorite S&S author, but also easily one of the most influential on D&D. He invented the concept of the Thieves guild, as well as the thief/rogue archetype and a million other RPG standbys. The first book is called "Swords and Deviltry", but each book in the series is a collection of short stories, which can be read out of order. If you were only to read one thing by him, I'd recommend "Swords of Lankhmar", which is the one full-length novel in the series, but if you want to start with a short story, I would recommend "Thieves' House" or "The Lords of Quarmall"
Next most important is probably Jack Vance's "Dying Earth" Series, which begins with "The Dying Earth", but you might rather start with "The Eyes of the Overworld", which introduces his thief-hero Cugel the Clever. Vance is who people are talking about when they say D&D has "Vancian magic".
However, before Vance, I personally would recommend either Poul Anderson or Michael Moorcock.
Anderson's most famous fantasy novel is "Three Hearts and Three Lions", from which D&D derives the Paladin class and probably its alignment system. If you're only going to read one, though, I recommend "The Broken Sword", which is IMO his finest work, and will change the way you think about elves and trolls forever. If you want sci fi, Anderson's "Flandry of Terra" series, which starts with "Ensign Flandry" is tons of fun, too. Basically James Bond in space.
Michael Moorcock is most famous for his "Elric" series. The first story published was "The Dreaming City", but the first in narrative order is "Elric of Melnibone". My personal pick for the best story in the series is "The Fortress of the Pearl". Moorcock's "Hawkmoon" series is also extremely good, and trades the traditional medieval fantasy aesthetic in for a science-fantasy one. Also, if you want a break from prose fiction, Titan Comics did a recent run of Elric graphic novels which are worthwhile.
https://www.amazon.com/Michael-Moorcocks-Elric-1-4-Boxed/dp/178773854X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1Z2RAHY34YIYO&keywords=elric+comic&qid=1682191636&s=books&sprefix=elric+comic%2Cstripbooks%2C89&sr=1-1
There's also Clark Ashton Smith, who's a pretty important figure in fantasy short stories. There's a good series of collections of his short stories from Night Shade Books, but if you want one to start with, I'd recommend the "Colossus of Ylourgne" or "The Black Abbot of Puthuum".
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1597808369/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
If you want to get into sword and planet, there's no better place to start than with the original, Edgar Rice Burroughs' "A Princess of Mars". The film adaptation "John Carter" from 2012 isn't bad either. I also recommend the Gor series, by John Norman, which starts with "A Tarnsman of Gor".
As far as the Appendix N book goes, I don't own it, but I've looked at the story selection. It's a pretty good primer. Personally I'm deep enough into it that I have a lot of the stories in other collections, but it's by no means a bad place to start.
EDIT: I left HP Lovecraft out originally, because he is only tangentially a fantasy author. That's not to say he isn't hugely important in the history of speculative fiction as a whole, though. For my money, his magnum opus is "At the Mountains of Madness", but "The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath" is not far behind, and is much more of a fantasy novel.
When I first started playing AD&D after moving away from BECMI my total experience with the swords and sorcery and pulp genres was the Conan movies and comics. I had read everything from Tolkien and some of those Forgotten Realms novels, lots of scifi, but no real S&S stuff whatsoever. So much like you, I decided to actually go through the Appendix N stuff and read whatever I could. I was a huge Zelazny fan and had already read those books, as well as HP Lovecraft and lots of Poul Anderson scifi (my dad had a subscription to Analog, actually, so I read those whenever he got a new one). Anyway, I ended up reading everything listed and here's what I recommend.
REH Conan. I get that some people like the other author's take on them, but I do not. Howard has such a unique style that it's impossible to replicate. I actually went to Howard Days a few years back in Cross Plains and saw the museum and stuff, dude was a nutjob but a great writer. There's a Conan anthology you can get with all his stuff, read that and ignore anything else. Also read Kull while you're at it.
Fritz Leiber is pretty good. I am not a huge fan of The Grey Mouser but you can 100% tell Gygax got a ton of inspiration from these stories. I'd say just pick one anthology like Swords Against Death (someone else might have a better recommendation) and use that as a factor in deciding if you want to read more.
Moorcock, read Stormbringer and the other Elric stuff. You do not need to read all the eternal champion stuff beyond these novels unless you want to, but they really do a good job of understanding how alignment works in the game.
HP Lovecraft, read all of it. The stories aren't very long, so you can burn through everything rather quickly. Dude has no equal when it comes to weird and creepy evocative writing.
Zelazny is great, and the Amber series is pretty much worth reading regardless of its relevance to D&D. Jack of Shadows and Lord of Light are pretty good, too, so I'd read them if you want something fun and out of the ordinary.
Vance...pretty much defines how magic works in D&D. If you read only one thing on the list, it should be this. There's a Dying Earth anthology, read it all. Cugel is the last half, and that shit made me laugh excessively. Dude is the prototypical character in a roleplaying game.
Tolkien, obviously. It's sort of like required, I'd think, even if it's not S&S. Same with Lord Dunsany. These are your basic math classes; you won't be able to do calculus (play S&S) until you understand these guys.
Anderson, you must read the three books in the appendix. Three Hearts and Three Lions is where Gygax got trolls and paladins and swanmays and a bunch of other stuff, The High Crusade is great because it's EXACTLY how I'd envision an alien landing taking place, and The Broken Sword is just badass. It's his version of creating a new myth using old ones, and fantastic for understanding how the fae are supposed to operate in D&D (including elves).
If you're like, fuck that, I am not reading 20k pages, then at the absolute minimum I'd do Dying Earth and a couple Leiber stories, but that's really pushing it.
RE: new authors, I have no idea. I pretty much only read technical documentation anymore or crap like the Handbook of Parapsychology. Fiction is not my bag, honestly. Contrast with my wife who reads four or five novels a week...
RE: that book, I am unfamiliar with it, but here is the synopsis.
Drawing upon the original list of "inspirational reading" provided by Gary Gygax in the first Dungeon Master's Guide, published in 1979, as well as related periodicals that helped to define the modern role-playing game, Appendix N offers a collection of short fiction and resonant fragments that reveal the literary influences that shaped Dungeons & Dragons, the world's most popular RPG. The stories in Appendix N contextualize the ambitious lyrical excursions that helped set the adventurous tone and dank, dungeon-crawling atmospheres of fantasy roleplay as we know it today.
Hmmm...sounds like some sort of literary analysis? I honestly wouldn't bother, and I mean it. YOU need to read those novels and then YOU can pick out the parts in D&D and decide how they work. If you want some actual books like this, then the Jon Peterson stuff is worth reading, like Playing at the World. Tons and tons of interesting stuff. I know I'll get raked over the coals for this, but Shared Fantasy by Gary Alan Fine...I love that book. I was told it was pure horseshit and an egregious display of garbage academia, but I think it's awesome.
EDIT: The wizard above me said a lot of the same stuff...so maybe I'm on the right track.
As they said, read Conan by Howard only. I'd also recommend his Kull stories.
I think people skip ERB as a major influence. I'd start with this: https://www.amazon.com/Mars-Trilogy-Princess-Gods-Warlord/dp/1442423870/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=john+carter+book&qid=1682192763&sprefix=John+Carter%2Caps%2C106&sr=8-4
It really captures everything about the series you need for D&D. If you like it you can read the rest.
Another one people don't discuss much is Sign of the Labrys by Margaret St. Clair, but the mega-dungeon idea is probably best illuminated in it: https://www.amazon.com/Sign-Labrys-Dover-Doomsday-Classics-ebook/dp/B01M5DUJ2M/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=sign+of+the+labrys&qid=1682192844&sprefix=sign+of+the+l%2Caps%2C105&sr=8-1
Her other book in Appendix N, The Shadow People, may have been a major source for the Drow. I can't prove it, but that's my feeling. You're stuck searching used book sellers for it.
A. A. Merritt is another good one with public domain versions, but I'd recommend skipping The Moon Pool. I found it slow moving compared to Dwellers in the Mirage.
For Moorcock I'd recommend either starting with the Hawkmoon books or, if you have to start with Elric, use this version: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074CDRNJD?binding=paperback&searchxofy=true&ref_=dbs_s_aps_series_rwt_tpbk&qid=1682193080&sr=8-9
I see the first book has gotten very expensive, but they are in order of publication which I think is much better than in order chronologically. If they are too rich then look at the ToC of the first of those and read those first, in that order, for any source you choose.
Avoid the silver covered 70/80 mass market paper. They do some editing to make a long narrative that I was not a fan of.
For "new" authors my big recommendation is the late David Gemmell. His novel Legend was first published in the US as Against the Horde by Gygax's post TSR company Infinite Realities. I'd really recommend everything he wrote for S&S vibe.
I'd also recommend a new kinda monthly (more like every two months), Savage Realms Monthly https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08V1W68QD?binding=kindle_edition&ref_=dbs_s_ks_series_rwt_tkin&qid=1682193354&sr=1-1
Like any mag it is hit and miss but clearly in a S&S style.
The Renegade Swords anthologies are mix of old and new published by DMR books.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09HR3S3B1?binding=kindle_edition&qid=1682193417&sr=1-6&ref=dbs_dp_rwt_sb_pc_tukn
They have other anthologies including this one which has all of Manly Wade Wellmans's Atlantis stories. They aren't his most famous (that would be Silver John) but I liked their take on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/Heroes-Atlantis-Lemuria-Manly-Wellman-ebook/dp/B07XPHF96Q/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2WS4UNFVBUWV&keywords=Atlantis+DMR&qid=1682193523&s=digital-text&sprefix=atlantis+dmr%2Cdigital-text%2C93&sr=1-1
If you are serious about reading a lot of this a Kindle Unlimited account is your friend.
As for an Appendix N book, get Jeffro's. He can be a bit of an ass with the BrOsr purity sometimes, but the book is well worth reading:
https://www.amazon.com/Appendix-Literary-History-Dungeons-Dragons-ebook/dp/B01MUB7WS6/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2XEMLP6YA316M&keywords=Appendix+N&qid=1682193659&s=digital-text&sprefix=appendix+n%2Cdigital-text%2C109&sr=1-1
For those curious about the appendix N book the OP mentioned, here's a table of contents from it that a friend of mine posted a while back.
(https://i.postimg.cc/h4kqr9vJ/rn-image-picker-lib-temp-3514bf1e-8386-45b8-83a9-db2167f98be8.jpg)
Greetings!
All of the books written by the late author, David Gemmel, are absolute gold.
I also recommend the KANE series, by author Karl Edward Wagner. Absolutely genius writing, evocative, and atmospheric. Characterizations are also fun. Probably the best homage to Robert E. Howard ever written. Wagner's KANE series of books are clearly inspired by Conan, though with a bit more magic and sorcery.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
If you don't mind listening to books instead of reading them, then several
Titles are available free of charge on YouTube, or on LibriVox.
I recommend "The Face in the Frost", and "Eyes of the Overworld".
I've read "Gardens of the Moon", but don't remember much about it.
"Once and Future King" is really good. Most think it's a kid's book, because Disney did the cartoon based on the first part, "The Sword in the Stone", but the rest of the book has some very adult themes, like adultery, torture, murder, and the like. The theme is how attempts to make a better world often contain the elements to fail miserably.
If you aren't averse to more young adult titles, then "The Hero and the Crown" and "The Blue Sword" by Robin McKinley are good. I read the "Hero" one first, but I think it is supposed to be read second. "Chronicles of Prydain" has been one of my favorite series since junior high.
N.D. Wilson has a trilogy, "100 Cupboards", "Dandelion Fire", and "The Chestnut King" that has some interesting ideas. They are "person from this world chucked into fantasy land" stories.
As others have said, you can't go wrong with Robert E Howard, Conan and Kull in particular. Michael Moorcock's Elric stories and Fritz Lieber's Elric stories are really good.
For more of a crash course there are anthologies and collections of short stories that can cover a lot of ground quickly.
If you can find the Issac Asimov's Wizards anthology, it's got a number of good short stories including Mazerian the Magician by Jack Vance.
I used to have a Treasury of Fantasy from the eighties that had a number of older works like The King of the Golden River and George MacDonald's Phantasies but also has HP Lovecraft's The Doom That Came To Sarnath and Robert E Howard's Swords of the Purple Kingdom.
Some great recommendations but I'll add the following, all newer than the Appendix N list:
The Bard series by Keith Taylor.
The Thieves World shared world anthologies. I suggest you stick to the first three.
Gord the Rogue series by EGG himself.
The Midkemia series by Ray Feist.
The Vlad Taltos series by Steven Brust.
Ok :P I bought the book, it was cheap where I live. What shocked me how fast they delivered. Here are some pictures (Images below)
Appendix N: The Eldritch Roots of Dungeons and Dragons Paperback by Peter Bebergal
Front Cover
(https://i.postimg.cc/YvTG491S/1cover.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YvTG491S)
Back of the Front Cover
(https://i.postimg.cc/CzQdt1r4/2cover1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CzQdt1r4)
Content
(https://i.postimg.cc/JtRyHSBj/3content.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JtRyHSBj)
Page 1 (Before the Introduction)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sGfvFZRT/4page1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sGfvFZRT)
First page of the introduction
(https://i.postimg.cc/F1GYyGj8/5page2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/F1GYyGj8)
Back of the "Backcover"
(https://i.postimg.cc/G8xHSx6B/6backcover2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G8xHSx6B)
Backcover
(https://i.postimg.cc/D8Z8Bs6Z/7backcover.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/D8Z8Bs6Z)
Almost at the end of the book it has some great black and white pictures, I think is for an adventure. I was not sure if is allowed to share the first page of that section for people to see the drawing. As you can see in the background, a blue map maybe from this adventure??
I am reading all the comments (I need to read it again later). Excellent recommendations, I am going to make a list and prioritize.
Quote from: David Johansen on April 22, 2023, 05:50:10 PM
For more of a crash course there are anthologies and collections of short stories that can cover a lot of ground quickly.
Exactly ;)
A few years ago I decided to try and reach a bunch of the Appendix N stuff I had never read before, just for fun & edification. I found most of it overrated and disappointing. But it's all a matter of taste. Tolkien is my all-time favorite author. I like Lovecraft a lot too. Can't stand Leiber. CAS is decent, better than Vance, who is slightly better than Saberhagen. Poul Anderson is like a ridiculous Fast & Furious movie in novel form. Moorcock? Elric is whiny and annoying, like Thomas Covenant with a sword. Conan is one of my favorite fictional characters but the stories, Howard or otherwise, vary widely in quality.
David Gemmel? Mediocre. Joe Abercrombie? Worse than mediocre. GRRM? Too verbose; can't finish a story. I liked David Eddings back in the day but haven't re-read the stuff. Robert Jordan is a hack. Haven't read Brandon Sanderson because I've no interest in reading multiple books approaching 1000 pages to finish a series. Terry Brooks is a knock-off retroclone of Tolkien, especially the first Shannara trilogy. I've read lots of other stuff and too much D&D and Warhammer fiction, most of which is middling at best, but I'll stop here.
But all this being said, I'm still glad to have at least sampled all these writers. They're cool for getting inspiration and seeing what inspired D&D.
And if you're really into learning the history of Appendix N and its authors, the Goodman Games website includes regular features on the books and authors of Appendix N.
I don't really disagree with any of the recommendations above from a "D&D inspiration" stand-point.
However, some of these writers were still going strong after Appendix N was first published. For my money, here are some great stories that aren't inspiration for D&D but could have been had the timing been different:
Poul Anderson: "The King of Ys" series, which you can find all in one book now.
Jack Vance: The "Lyonesse" trilogy, starting with Suldren's Garden.
Roger Zelazny: "A Night in the Lonesome October".
There are echoes of their more famous things in those respective books, but the stories are well crafted, with a maturity of writing ability that wasn't always there earlier.
Quote from: SHARK on April 22, 2023, 04:49:20 PM
Greetings!
All of the books written by the late author, David Gemmel, are absolute gold.
I also recommend the KANE series, by author Karl Edward Wagner. Absolutely genius writing, evocative, and atmospheric. Characterizations are also fun. Probably the best homage to Robert E. Howard ever written. Wagner's KANE series of books are clearly inspired by Conan, though with a bit more magic and sorcery.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Do you know anywhere that the Kane stories can be gotten in hard copy for a reasonable price these days? I've been trying to find them for a couple years now, and the prices are absurd. $300 for the collected stories sometimes.
Quote from: ForgottenF on April 22, 2023, 11:06:31 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 22, 2023, 04:49:20 PM
Greetings!
All of the books written by the late author, David Gemmel, are absolute gold.
I also recommend the KANE series, by author Karl Edward Wagner. Absolutely genius writing, evocative, and atmospheric. Characterizations are also fun. Probably the best homage to Robert E. Howard ever written. Wagner's KANE series of books are clearly inspired by Conan, though with a bit more magic and sorcery.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Do you know anywhere that the Kane stories can be gotten in hard copy for a reasonable price these days? I've been trying to find them for a couple years now, and the prices are absurd. $300 for the collected stories sometimes.
Greetings!
Wow, my friend! I had not realized that the KANE books were so difficult to get!
I also prefer hardbacks, but alas, my collection are all original paperbacks from...back in the 1980's. *Laughing*
Fortunately, I have kept my books all in mint-condition. I think I must have paid $4.99 for them each.
As crazy as the prices are, I would be tempted to just go for it and get a hardcover collection of Wagner's KANE stories. I know it seems very pricey--but, as a fan of Sword & Sorcery and Horror, I still place Wagner at a place of honour in my memories, even after...35 or more years. His gripping style, mixing military, savage combat, scheming and politics, as well as horror, science-fiction, and ancient mythology and history--it is all very unique and awesome.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on April 22, 2023, 04:49:20 PM
Greetings!
All of the books written by the late author, David Gemmel, are absolute gold.
I also recommend the KANE series, by author Karl Edward Wagner. Absolutely genius writing, evocative, and atmospheric. Characterizations are also fun. Probably the best homage to Robert E. Howard ever written. Wagner's KANE series of books are clearly inspired by Conan, though with a bit more magic and sorcery.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I can't recommend the Kane books enough, if you can find them. Wagner provides some really amazing big picture 'wars' that you can drop character into the middle of.
Robert E Howards Conan stories provide module level adventures that are fairly easy to strip for content.
I'd also toss Keith Taylor's Bard series into the mix if you can find them. They are more historical than the other two but really give you a nice since of a magical world.
Quote from: ForgottenF on April 22, 2023, 11:06:31 PM
Do you know anywhere that the Kane stories can be gotten in hard copy for a reasonable price these days? I've been trying to find them for a couple years now, and the prices are absurd. $300 for the collected stories sometimes.
No, but one of Wagner's Horror books showed up as an Audio Novel on Audible.com a few months ago, I have high hopes they intend to release more of his work.
Quote from: ForgottenF on April 22, 2023, 11:06:31 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 22, 2023, 04:49:20 PM
Greetings!
All of the books written by the late author, David Gemmel, are absolute gold.
I also recommend the KANE series, by author Karl Edward Wagner. Absolutely genius writing, evocative, and atmospheric. Characterizations are also fun. Probably the best homage to Robert E. Howard ever written. Wagner's KANE series of books are clearly inspired by Conan, though with a bit more magic and sorcery.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Do you know anywhere that the Kane stories can be gotten in hard copy for a reasonable price these days? I've been trying to find them for a couple years now, and the prices are absurd. $300 for the collected stories sometimes.
Nevermind...wrong tales.
Quote from: Persimmon on April 22, 2023, 08:39:31 PM
A few years ago I decided to try and reach a bunch of the Appendix N stuff I had never read before, just for fun & edification. I found most of it overrated and disappointing. But it's all a matter of taste. Tolkien is my all-time favorite author. I like Lovecraft a lot too. Can't stand Leiber. CAS is decent, better than Vance, who is slightly better than Saberhagen. Poul Anderson is like a ridiculous Fast & Furious movie in novel form. Moorcock? Elric is whiny and annoying, like Thomas Covenant with a sword. Conan is one of my favorite fictional characters but the stories, Howard or otherwise, vary widely in quality.
David Gemmel? Mediocre. Joe Abercrombie? Worse than mediocre. GRRM? Too verbose; can't finish a story. I liked David Eddings back in the day but haven't re-read the stuff. Robert Jordan is a hack. Haven't read Brandon Sanderson because I've no interest in reading multiple books approaching 1000 pages to finish a series. Terry Brooks is a knock-off retroclone of Tolkien, especially the first Shannara trilogy. I've read lots of other stuff and too much D&D and Warhammer fiction, most of which is middling at best, but I'll stop here.
But all this being said, I'm still glad to have at least sampled all these writers. They're cool for getting inspiration and seeing what inspired D&D.
And if you're really into learning the history of Appendix N and its authors, the Goodman Games website includes regular features on the books and authors of Appendix N.
I'm with you. Most of Appendix N is garbage along the lines of the fiction Gygax wrote. Some good ideas, but poor writing outside of CAS, Howard, Lovecraft, Tolkien, Moorcock (his Corum books are easily his best), Zelazny, and maybe a couple more. I usually skip threads about the appendix N writers due to me seeing most of them as junk - same with alignment arguments.
I tried one Sanderson book several years back and I gave up in under 20 pages. Nothing in it interested me and I found the writing to be abysmal.
Vance's best stuff, by far, is his Demon Princes novels. Dying Earth is boring. I can't think of any protagonist from it that is even likable.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on April 23, 2023, 11:24:31 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on April 22, 2023, 08:39:31 PM
A few years ago I decided to try and reach a bunch of the Appendix N stuff I had never read before, just for fun & edification. I found most of it overrated and disappointing. But it's all a matter of taste. Tolkien is my all-time favorite author. I like Lovecraft a lot too. Can't stand Leiber. CAS is decent, better than Vance, who is slightly better than Saberhagen. Poul Anderson is like a ridiculous Fast & Furious movie in novel form. Moorcock? Elric is whiny and annoying, like Thomas Covenant with a sword. Conan is one of my favorite fictional characters but the stories, Howard or otherwise, vary widely in quality.
David Gemmel? Mediocre. Joe Abercrombie? Worse than mediocre. GRRM? Too verbose; can't finish a story. I liked David Eddings back in the day but haven't re-read the stuff. Robert Jordan is a hack. Haven't read Brandon Sanderson because I've no interest in reading multiple books approaching 1000 pages to finish a series. Terry Brooks is a knock-off retroclone of Tolkien, especially the first Shannara trilogy. I've read lots of other stuff and too much D&D and Warhammer fiction, most of which is middling at best, but I'll stop here.
But all this being said, I'm still glad to have at least sampled all these writers. They're cool for getting inspiration and seeing what inspired D&D.
And if you're really into learning the history of Appendix N and its authors, the Goodman Games website includes regular features on the books and authors of Appendix N.
I'm with you. Most of Appendix N is garbage along the lines of the fiction Gygax wrote. Some good ideas, but poor writing outside of CAS, Howard, Lovecraft, Tolkien, Moorcock (his Corum books are easily his best), Zelazny, and maybe a couple more. I usually skip threads about the appendix N writers due to me seeing most of them as junk - same with alignment arguments.
I tried one Sanderson book several years back and I gave up in under 20 pages. Nothing in it interested me and I found the writing to be abysmal.
Vance's best stuff, by far, is his Demon Princes novels. Dying Earth is boring. I can't think of any protagonist from it that is even likable.
Greetings!
Interesting! I have read that Brandon Sanderson seems to be viewed as an absolute genius. LEGIONS of fans that support and admire him.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2023, 03:28:29 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on April 23, 2023, 11:24:31 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on April 22, 2023, 08:39:31 PM
A few years ago I decided to try and reach a bunch of the Appendix N stuff I had never read before, just for fun & edification. I found most of it overrated and disappointing. But it's all a matter of taste. Tolkien is my all-time favorite author. I like Lovecraft a lot too. Can't stand Leiber. CAS is decent, better than Vance, who is slightly better than Saberhagen. Poul Anderson is like a ridiculous Fast & Furious movie in novel form. Moorcock? Elric is whiny and annoying, like Thomas Covenant with a sword. Conan is one of my favorite fictional characters but the stories, Howard or otherwise, vary widely in quality.
David Gemmel? Mediocre. Joe Abercrombie? Worse than mediocre. GRRM? Too verbose; can't finish a story. I liked David Eddings back in the day but haven't re-read the stuff. Robert Jordan is a hack. Haven't read Brandon Sanderson because I've no interest in reading multiple books approaching 1000 pages to finish a series. Terry Brooks is a knock-off retroclone of Tolkien, especially the first Shannara trilogy. I've read lots of other stuff and too much D&D and Warhammer fiction, most of which is middling at best, but I'll stop here.
But all this being said, I'm still glad to have at least sampled all these writers. They're cool for getting inspiration and seeing what inspired D&D.
And if you're really into learning the history of Appendix N and its authors, the Goodman Games website includes regular features on the books and authors of Appendix N.
I'm with you. Most of Appendix N is garbage along the lines of the fiction Gygax wrote. Some good ideas, but poor writing outside of CAS, Howard, Lovecraft, Tolkien, Moorcock (his Corum books are easily his best), Zelazny, and maybe a couple more. I usually skip threads about the appendix N writers due to me seeing most of them as junk - same with alignment arguments.
I tried one Sanderson book several years back and I gave up in under 20 pages. Nothing in it interested me and I found the writing to be abysmal.
Vance's best stuff, by far, is his Demon Princes novels. Dying Earth is boring. I can't think of any protagonist from it that is even likable.
Greetings!
Interesting! I have read that Brandon Sanderson seems to be viewed as an absolute genius. LEGIONS of fans that support and admire him.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Legions of fans drink Miller Lite and like McDonalds. That hardly makes them good. So if you like generic, super-sized fantasy, by all means enjoy your Brandon Sanderson.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on April 23, 2023, 11:24:31 AM
Vance's best stuff, by far, is his Demon Princes novels. Dying Earth is boring. I can't think of any protagonist from it that is even likable.
Yeah, by the 'likable protagonist' standard, Dying Earth is an abysmal failure. ;D
Quote from: S'mon on April 23, 2023, 04:39:59 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on April 23, 2023, 11:24:31 AM
Vance's best stuff, by far, is his Demon Princes novels. Dying Earth is boring. I can't think of any protagonist from it that is even likable.
Yeah, by the 'likable protagonist' standard, Dying Earth is an abysmal failure. ;D
Depends on how you measure it. Given what he does, Cugel is remarkably likable. Compare him to, say, the same character written by Stephen King. :D
Quote from: Persimmon on April 23, 2023, 04:24:52 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2023, 03:28:29 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on April 23, 2023, 11:24:31 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on April 22, 2023, 08:39:31 PM
A few years ago I decided to try and reach a bunch of the Appendix N stuff I had never read before, just for fun & edification. I found most of it overrated and disappointing. But it's all a matter of taste. Tolkien is my all-time favorite author. I like Lovecraft a lot too. Can't stand Leiber. CAS is decent, better than Vance, who is slightly better than Saberhagen. Poul Anderson is like a ridiculous Fast & Furious movie in novel form. Moorcock? Elric is whiny and annoying, like Thomas Covenant with a sword. Conan is one of my favorite fictional characters but the stories, Howard or otherwise, vary widely in quality.
David Gemmel? Mediocre. Joe Abercrombie? Worse than mediocre. GRRM? Too verbose; can't finish a story. I liked David Eddings back in the day but haven't re-read the stuff. Robert Jordan is a hack. Haven't read Brandon Sanderson because I've no interest in reading multiple books approaching 1000 pages to finish a series. Terry Brooks is a knock-off retroclone of Tolkien, especially the first Shannara trilogy. I've read lots of other stuff and too much D&D and Warhammer fiction, most of which is middling at best, but I'll stop here.
But all this being said, I'm still glad to have at least sampled all these writers. They're cool for getting inspiration and seeing what inspired D&D.
And if you're really into learning the history of Appendix N and its authors, the Goodman Games website includes regular features on the books and authors of Appendix N.
I'm with you. Most of Appendix N is garbage along the lines of the fiction Gygax wrote. Some good ideas, but poor writing outside of CAS, Howard, Lovecraft, Tolkien, Moorcock (his Corum books are easily his best), Zelazny, and maybe a couple more. I usually skip threads about the appendix N writers due to me seeing most of them as junk - same with alignment arguments.
I tried one Sanderson book several years back and I gave up in under 20 pages. Nothing in it interested me and I found the writing to be abysmal.
Vance's best stuff, by far, is his Demon Princes novels. Dying Earth is boring. I can't think of any protagonist from it that is even likable.
Greetings!
Interesting! I have read that Brandon Sanderson seems to be viewed as an absolute genius. LEGIONS of fans that support and admire him.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Legions of fans drink Miller Lite and like McDonalds. That hardly makes them good. So if you like generic, super-sized fantasy, by all means enjoy your Brandon Sanderson.
*Laughing* So true, huh, my friend? Yeah, I'm definitely not a fan of Miller Lite or McDonalds. Generic, super-sized fantasy! *Laughing* I don't know much about Brandon Sanderson. I imagine though there are many of the more recent authors that I am clueless about.
Your commentary about many of the Appendix N authors being mediocre--that kind of reminded me, I remember reading Moorcock as an adolescent, and I then thought that Moorcock was awesome and brilliant!
However, as an adult, coming back to Moorcock many years later, I was relatively unimpressed.
In contrast, I have to say, Tolkien has maintained the stronghold of brilliance, wondrous joy, and inspiration. I first read The Hobbit, when I was in the 5th Grade, and soon followed by reading the Lord of the Rings, and then, the Silmarillion. In all the years since, Tolkien has endured as an inspiration!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 23, 2023, 05:55:37 PM
Depends on how you measure it. Given what he does, Cugel is remarkably likable. Compare him to, say, the same character written by Stephen King. :D
Cugel is a PC in a D&D campaign. His likeability is in laughing at his total ineptitude and failure.
There are a few dimensions to consider here. For example, I find Edgar Allan Poe a much better writer then Howard Phillips Lovecraft, but HPL it's more influential to D&D (Gygax) and probably has more things you can use in your games.
Poul Anderson is another example. I find "the broken sword" much better than "three hearts and three Lions", but 3H3L has more D&D stuff.
Tolkien is great at both things.
And then there are things like Eddings that managed to be badly written and also contain no monsters, spells, items, or situations to inspire your D&D games.
Cathal, I'll just add that I like Eddings' Belgariad a lot. Back when it first came out, and still during my most-recent re-read last year. It may not have "monsters" for game inspiration, but it can give you a heck of a lot of inspiration at world-building!
I also enjoy most of Appendix N. (Still can't say that I've read it all.) "Grand Masters" earned their titles for a reason.
Chacun à son goût is a perfectly valid response, but you'll have to make up your own mind. I wish you an eye-opening journey.
Quote from: Baron on April 23, 2023, 07:02:05 PM
Cathal, I'll just add that I like Eddings' Belgariad a lot. Back when it first came out, and still during my most-recent re-read last year. It may not have "monsters" for game inspiration, but it can give you a heck of a lot of inspiration at world-building!
I'll agree that Eddings is great. He's enormously fun to read, and makes very entertaining characters and dialogue. One of my favorite authors. I don't think I'd consider him to be Appendix N type material though. The setting, tone, and action don't really fit what you can do with D&D rules.
Quote from: Mishihari on April 24, 2023, 01:17:04 AM
Quote from: Baron on April 23, 2023, 07:02:05 PM
Cathal, I'll just add that I like Eddings' Belgariad a lot. Back when it first came out, and still during my most-recent re-read last year. It may not have "monsters" for game inspiration, but it can give you a heck of a lot of inspiration at world-building!
I'll agree that Eddings is great. He's enormously fun to read, and makes very entertaining characters and dialogue. One of my favorite authors. I don't think I'd consider him to be Appendix N type material though. The setting, tone, and action don't really fit what you can do with D&D rules.
On the subject of "good, but not really Appendix N", I'd throw in Lloyd Alexander's "Chronicles of Prydain". They're more in the Tolkien/Lewis vein of fantasy than the Howard/Leiber one, and they're targeted at a younger audience (much in the same way that the Narnia books are), but I recommend them highly nevertheless. Great inspiration material if you want to incorporate a more authentic Anglo-Celtic tone into your D&D.
As a very outside pick, there's a two-book series by an author named J. Gregory Keyes, comprised of "Waterborn" and "Blackgod", which I really like. They're a bit hard to find, but also one of my favorite representations of what it would be like if a shamanistic, nature-worshipping religion was actually true. Can't speak to the quality of any of his other books.
Others have mentioned David Gemmel. I'd recommend the first two books of his "Stones of Power" series, "Ghost King" and "The Last Sword of Power". Together they make up an unusual, almost science-fantasy retelling of the story of Uther Pendragon.
Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2023, 05:55:45 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on April 23, 2023, 04:24:52 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2023, 03:28:29 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on April 23, 2023, 11:24:31 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on April 22, 2023, 08:39:31 PM
A few years ago I decided to try and reach a bunch of the Appendix N stuff I had never read before, just for fun & edification. I found most of it overrated and disappointing. But it's all a matter of taste. Tolkien is my all-time favorite author. I like Lovecraft a lot too. Can't stand Leiber. CAS is decent, better than Vance, who is slightly better than Saberhagen. Poul Anderson is like a ridiculous Fast & Furious movie in novel form. Moorcock? Elric is whiny and annoying, like Thomas Covenant with a sword. Conan is one of my favorite fictional characters but the stories, Howard or otherwise, vary widely in quality.
David Gemmel? Mediocre. Joe Abercrombie? Worse than mediocre. GRRM? Too verbose; can't finish a story. I liked David Eddings back in the day but haven't re-read the stuff. Robert Jordan is a hack. Haven't read Brandon Sanderson because I've no interest in reading multiple books approaching 1000 pages to finish a series. Terry Brooks is a knock-off retroclone of Tolkien, especially the first Shannara trilogy. I've read lots of other stuff and too much D&D and Warhammer fiction, most of which is middling at best, but I'll stop here.
But all this being said, I'm still glad to have at least sampled all these writers. They're cool for getting inspiration and seeing what inspired D&D.
And if you're really into learning the history of Appendix N and its authors, the Goodman Games website includes regular features on the books and authors of Appendix N.
I'm with you. Most of Appendix N is garbage along the lines of the fiction Gygax wrote. Some good ideas, but poor writing outside of CAS, Howard, Lovecraft, Tolkien, Moorcock (his Corum books are easily his best), Zelazny, and maybe a couple more. I usually skip threads about the appendix N writers due to me seeing most of them as junk - same with alignment arguments.
I tried one Sanderson book several years back and I gave up in under 20 pages. Nothing in it interested me and I found the writing to be abysmal.
Vance's best stuff, by far, is his Demon Princes novels. Dying Earth is boring. I can't think of any protagonist from it that is even likable.
Greetings!
Interesting! I have read that Brandon Sanderson seems to be viewed as an absolute genius. LEGIONS of fans that support and admire him.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Legions of fans drink Miller Lite and like McDonalds. That hardly makes them good. So if you like generic, super-sized fantasy, by all means enjoy your Brandon Sanderson.
*Laughing* So true, huh, my friend? Yeah, I'm definitely not a fan of Miller Lite or McDonalds. Generic, super-sized fantasy! *Laughing* I don't know much about Brandon Sanderson. I imagine though there are many of the more recent authors that I am clueless about.
Your commentary about many of the Appendix N authors being mediocre--that kind of reminded me, I remember reading Moorcock as an adolescent, and I then thought that Moorcock was awesome and brilliant!
However, as an adult, coming back to Moorcock many years later, I was relatively unimpressed.
In contrast, I have to say, Tolkien has maintained the stronghold of brilliance, wondrous joy, and inspiration. I first read The Hobbit, when I was in the 5th Grade, and soon followed by reading the Lord of the Rings, and then, the Silmarillion. In all the years since, Tolkien has endured as an inspiration!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I'm partly with you on Moorcock. As a teen he was the shit! Now that I've passed 50 I don't like him nearly as well. I find the first Corum trilogy has held up, but the rest has all dropped from my teenage impression. Hawkmoon is almost unreadable drek. I'm saddened, but it is what it is.
Tolkien is much better now that I'm older. As a teen he plodded along, but now I really see his shine. Maybe as a teen he was too challenging for my reading level. Don't know for sure.
I recently went back to reading what did it for me as a teenager, alas, not many tales hold up.
I feel like I need to correct myself on Eddings I read only one book, Diamond Throne, and found it one of the worst fantasy books I've ever read. Feels like a 12yo writing and I think he went more or less public saying he started writing because he found a business opportunity.
However, he might have other great books that I haven't read, so I shouldn't generalize.
Same for Abercrombie, although his first book is miles ahead of Eddings. He has a big fanbase and I bet his other books are better than his first.
Moorcock, I've read multiple times, I still enjoy it. People are still making a huge success with Elric knockoffs to this day with Witcher and House of the Dragon. Same for Tolkien, although his series is a failure for different reasons.
David Gemmel is a pleasant surprise for me. I get the impression his magic system might have influenced MtG, and maybe his portals to hell influenced Elder Scrolls.
Many of the best authors - or at elast theri influences - survive the test of time, but some do not. Algernon Blackwoods, for example, seems to be partly forgotten.
Quote from: Ruprecht on April 23, 2023, 12:10:51 AM
I can't recommend the Kane books enough, if you can find them.
Kane is readily available on Kindle. Not a collector's choice, but perfectly viable for reading.
And yes,
get these books!
Quote from: Jason Coplen on April 24, 2023, 08:52:22 AM
Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2023, 05:55:45 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on April 23, 2023, 04:24:52 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2023, 03:28:29 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on April 23, 2023, 11:24:31 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on April 22, 2023, 08:39:31 PM
A few years ago I decided to try and reach a bunch of the Appendix N stuff I had never read before, just for fun & edification. I found most of it overrated and disappointing. But it's all a matter of taste. Tolkien is my all-time favorite author. I like Lovecraft a lot too. Can't stand Leiber. CAS is decent, better than Vance, who is slightly better than Saberhagen. Poul Anderson is like a ridiculous Fast & Furious movie in novel form. Moorcock? Elric is whiny and annoying, like Thomas Covenant with a sword. Conan is one of my favorite fictional characters but the stories, Howard or otherwise, vary widely in quality.
David Gemmel? Mediocre. Joe Abercrombie? Worse than mediocre. GRRM? Too verbose; can't finish a story. I liked David Eddings back in the day but haven't re-read the stuff. Robert Jordan is a hack. Haven't read Brandon Sanderson because I've no interest in reading multiple books approaching 1000 pages to finish a series. Terry Brooks is a knock-off retroclone of Tolkien, especially the first Shannara trilogy. I've read lots of other stuff and too much D&D and Warhammer fiction, most of which is middling at best, but I'll stop here.
But all this being said, I'm still glad to have at least sampled all these writers. They're cool for getting inspiration and seeing what inspired D&D.
And if you're really into learning the history of Appendix N and its authors, the Goodman Games website includes regular features on the books and authors of Appendix N.
I'm with you. Most of Appendix N is garbage along the lines of the fiction Gygax wrote. Some good ideas, but poor writing outside of CAS, Howard, Lovecraft, Tolkien, Moorcock (his Corum books are easily his best), Zelazny, and maybe a couple more. I usually skip threads about the appendix N writers due to me seeing most of them as junk - same with alignment arguments.
I tried one Sanderson book several years back and I gave up in under 20 pages. Nothing in it interested me and I found the writing to be abysmal.
Vance's best stuff, by far, is his Demon Princes novels. Dying Earth is boring. I can't think of any protagonist from it that is even likable.
Greetings!
Interesting! I have read that Brandon Sanderson seems to be viewed as an absolute genius. LEGIONS of fans that support and admire him.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Legions of fans drink Miller Lite and like McDonalds. That hardly makes them good. So if you like generic, super-sized fantasy, by all means enjoy your Brandon Sanderson.
*Laughing* So true, huh, my friend? Yeah, I'm definitely not a fan of Miller Lite or McDonalds. Generic, super-sized fantasy! *Laughing* I don't know much about Brandon Sanderson. I imagine though there are many of the more recent authors that I am clueless about.
Your commentary about many of the Appendix N authors being mediocre--that kind of reminded me, I remember reading Moorcock as an adolescent, and I then thought that Moorcock was awesome and brilliant!
However, as an adult, coming back to Moorcock many years later, I was relatively unimpressed.
In contrast, I have to say, Tolkien has maintained the stronghold of brilliance, wondrous joy, and inspiration. I first read The Hobbit, when I was in the 5th Grade, and soon followed by reading the Lord of the Rings, and then, the Silmarillion. In all the years since, Tolkien has endured as an inspiration!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I'm partly with you on Moorcock. As a teen he was the shit! Now that I've passed 50 I don't like him nearly as well. I find the first Corum trilogy has held up, but the rest has all dropped from my teenage impression. Hawkmoon is almost unreadable drek. I'm saddened, but it is what it is.
Tolkien is much better now that I'm older. As a teen he plodded along, but now I really see his shine. Maybe as a teen he was too challenging for my reading level. Don't know for sure.
I recently went back to reading what did it for me as a teenager, alas, not many tales hold up.
Yes, this is definitely a thing and I think it speaks to one's intellectual growth, changing tastes, and simple exposure to more things over time. A lot of books I loved as a teen I can't even read now. And back then (the 80s) fantasy was exploding, but it was still kind of niche so I was reading all kinds of stuff and liked most of it, in part because I think I related it to D&D, which some of it (i.e. Dragonlance), of course was. Hell, I even wrote my own novelized versions of our D&D campaigns BEFORE Dragonlance was published, as I suspect many of us older folks did in those heady pre-social media days when we made our own entertainment.
Now, when I go back to these books, I tend to be more critical about writing, plot, character development, etc. I still love Tolkien in part because I appreciate the depth of the history and lore and the erudition of the author, being an academic myself. I later realized that it was actually Tolkien who sparked my love of history. I started college as an English major with hopes of becoming a novelist, but soon realized I liked history more and it was that aspect of LOTR, etc. that had so grabbed me. For me, no one else really comes close to him in this respect. I mean you can read the Harry Potter books and there's really no comparison in the depth & texture of the writing, even if you're just talking about
The Hobbit. But I still like to try new authors, including Appendix N folks I haven't read before, because you never know until you read them yourself.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 24, 2023, 09:19:19 AM
I feel like I need to correct myself on Eddings I read only one book, Diamond Throne, and found it one of the worst fantasy books I've ever read. Feels like a 12yo writing and I think he went more or less public saying he started writing because he found a business opportunity.
He might have other great books that I haven't read, so I shouldn't generalize.
Same for Abercrombie, although his first book is miles ahead of Eddings. He has a big fanbase and I bet his other books are better than his first.
Moorcock, I've read multiple times, I still enjoy it. People are still making a huge success with Elric knockoffs to this day with Witcher and House of the Dragon. Same for Tolkien, although his series is a failure for different reasons.
Many of the best authors survive the test of time, but some do not. Algernon Blackwoods, for example, seems to be partly forgotten.
Funny thing about Abercrombie. I've read the awful book
The Blade Itself three fucking times based on recommendations from others because I kept forgetting I had read it. Then I moved and found all these copies in various boxes of books. So I donated them all to a local free library:) :)
Quote from: Persimmon on April 24, 2023, 09:26:15 AM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 24, 2023, 09:19:19 AM
I feel like I need to correct myself on Eddings I read only one book, Diamond Throne, and found it one of the worst fantasy books I've ever read. Feels like a 12yo writing and I think he went more or less public saying he started writing because he found a business opportunity.
He might have other great books that I haven't read, so I shouldn't generalize.
Same for Abercrombie, although his first book is miles ahead of Eddings. He has a big fanbase and I bet his other books are better than his first.
Moorcock, I've read multiple times, I still enjoy it. People are still making a huge success with Elric knockoffs to this day with Witcher and House of the Dragon. Same for Tolkien, although his series is a failure for different reasons.
Many of the best authors survive the test of time, but some do not. Algernon Blackwoods, for example, seems to be partly forgotten.
Funny thing about Abercrombie. I've read the awful book The Blade Itself three fucking times based on recommendations from others because I kept forgetting I had read it. Then I moved and found all these copies in various boxes of books. So I donated them all to a local free library:) :)
You must hate the local library. ;D
Quote from: Mishihari on April 24, 2023, 01:17:04 AM
Quote from: Baron on April 23, 2023, 07:02:05 PM
Cathal, I'll just add that I like Eddings' Belgariad a lot. Back when it first came out, and still during my most-recent re-read last year. It may not have "monsters" for game inspiration, but it can give you a heck of a lot of inspiration at world-building!
I'll agree that Eddings is great. He's enormously fun to read, and makes very entertaining characters and dialogue. One of my favorite authors. I don't think I'd consider him to be Appendix N type material though. The setting, tone, and action don't really fit what you can do with D&D rules.
Pretty much the only reason to read Eddings is the dialogue and the characters. I say this as someone that has read and enjoyed his 4 major series multiple times. As a story teller, there isn't any there, there. Don't bother with his last series. It's the basics of his same story, stripped of interesting dialogue and any interesting character, like someone was writing bad fan fiction of his own works.
Most fantasy fiction isn't great literature. Sometimes, I just want an easy read. In fact, the last time I reread the Belgariad was when I was recovering from Covid. If I drifted off to sleep and missed a section, it didn't really matter. I know how it goes. I'm just enjoying Silk being Silk, and so on. I get that television serves that role for some people, but I'd usually rather read.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 24, 2023, 09:56:52 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on April 24, 2023, 01:17:04 AM
Quote from: Baron on April 23, 2023, 07:02:05 PM
Cathal, I'll just add that I like Eddings' Belgariad a lot. Back when it first came out, and still during my most-recent re-read last year. It may not have "monsters" for game inspiration, but it can give you a heck of a lot of inspiration at world-building!
I'll agree that Eddings is great. He's enormously fun to read, and makes very entertaining characters and dialogue. One of my favorite authors. I don't think I'd consider him to be Appendix N type material though. The setting, tone, and action don't really fit what you can do with D&D rules.
Pretty much the only reason to read Eddings is the dialogue and the characters. I say this as someone that has read and enjoyed his 4 major series multiple times. As a story teller, there isn't any there, there. Don't bother with his last series. It's the basics of his same story, stripped of interesting dialogue and any interesting character, like someone was writing bad fan fiction of his own works.
Most fantasy fiction isn't great literature. Sometimes, I just want an easy read. In fact, the last time I reread the Belgariad was when I was recovering from Covid. If I drifted off to sleep and missed a section, it didn't really matter. I know how it goes. I'm just enjoying Silk being Silk, and so on. I get that television serves that role for some people, but I'd usually rather read.
Eddings has been a weird case for me. I read the Belgeriad when it came out an loved it. I was in HS.
In the 90s, ie mid-to-late 20s I read it again and wondered why I loved it.
Then I read it again around 40, enjoyed it, and saw a lot in it.
I wonder how I'd react if I read it again in my 50s.
Quote from: PulpHerb on April 24, 2023, 11:17:08 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 24, 2023, 09:56:52 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on April 24, 2023, 01:17:04 AM
Quote from: Baron on April 23, 2023, 07:02:05 PM
Cathal, I'll just add that I like Eddings' Belgariad a lot. Back when it first came out, and still during my most-recent re-read last year. It may not have "monsters" for game inspiration, but it can give you a heck of a lot of inspiration at world-building!
I'll agree that Eddings is great. He's enormously fun to read, and makes very entertaining characters and dialogue. One of my favorite authors. I don't think I'd consider him to be Appendix N type material though. The setting, tone, and action don't really fit what you can do with D&D rules.
Pretty much the only reason to read Eddings is the dialogue and the characters. I say this as someone that has read and enjoyed his 4 major series multiple times. As a story teller, there isn't any there, there. Don't bother with his last series. It's the basics of his same story, stripped of interesting dialogue and any interesting character, like someone was writing bad fan fiction of his own works.
Most fantasy fiction isn't great literature. Sometimes, I just want an easy read. In fact, the last time I reread the Belgariad was when I was recovering from Covid. If I drifted off to sleep and missed a section, it didn't really matter. I know how it goes. I'm just enjoying Silk being Silk, and so on. I get that television serves that role for some people, but I'd usually rather read.
Eddings has been a weird case for me. I read the Belgeriad when it came out an loved it. I was in HS.
In the 90s, ie mid-to-late 20s I read it again and wondered why I loved it.
Then I read it again around 40, enjoyed it, and saw a lot in it.
I wonder how I'd react if I read it again in my 50s.
I'm currently reading it again, this time to my 12 year old daughter as her bedtime book, a chapter at a time. Her reactions to the Shakespeare-esque romances have been a lot of fun to watch. "Oh, that's so cringy!" "I can skip it if you like." "NOOO!"
I'll echo the others here:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514oumoSktL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
The Broken Sword has a real grasp on the Norse and other legends that are really inspirational. It's very tragic though.
For something much lighter, read the Hobbit :)
Moorcock definitely needs to be read as a teenager. Preferably disaffected and convinced of one's own importance.
Quote from: S'mon on April 24, 2023, 02:55:36 PM
Moorcock definitely needs to be read as a teenager. Preferably disaffected and convinced of one's own importance.
Greetings!
Strange how Moorcock has such a profound effect upon adolescent readers--and yet, adult readers have generally reacted to Moorcock as being...distinctly uninspiring and mediocre. *Laughing*
I also fondly remember Eddings, and the Belgariad series. I enjoyed it immensely. However, as the years went on, and he came out with new series, I found his writing to be...shallow and uninteresting. Not to be too harsh, as I was hugely inspired by his characters, dialogue, and storytelling in the first series, but afterwards, the Diamond Throne thingy, yeah. Just "Heh".
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I just read Poul Anderson's "Three Hearts and Three Lions" for the first time, and I thought it was very illuminating about D&D's roots - moreso than most of the others.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 23, 2023, 06:53:13 PM
Poul Anderson is another example. I find "the broken sword" much better than "three hearts and three Lions", but 3H3L has more D&D stuff.
Quote from: ForgottenF on April 22, 2023, 03:38:53 PM
Anderson's most famous fantasy novel is "Three Hearts and Three Lions", from which D&D derives the Paladin class and probably its alignment system. If you're only going to read one, though, I recommend "The Broken Sword", which is IMO his finest work, and will change the way you think about elves and trolls forever. If you want sci fi, Anderson's "Flandry of Terra" series, which starts with "Ensign Flandry" is tons of fun, too. Basically James Bond in space.
Quote from: Brad on April 22, 2023, 03:47:19 PM
Anderson, you must read the three books in the appendix. Three Hearts and Three Lions is where Gygax got trolls and paladins and swanmays and a bunch of other stuff, The High Crusade is great because it's EXACTLY how I'd envision an alien landing taking place, and The Broken Sword is just badass. It's his version of creating a new myth using old ones, and fantastic for understanding how the fae are supposed to operate in D&D (including elves).
Things that struck me about
Three Hearts and Three Lions was especially how Anderson approached myth from a scientific viewpoint - with comments about the energy needed for magic, genetics of lycanthropy, and thermodynamics of dragons. AD&D doesn't use most of these specifics - but it has a lot of that mindset, like having "infravision" for seeing in the dark as seeing in infrared, psionics, and discussion of the energy of magic.
Also, I think Anderson's version of Law vs Chaos is the closest I've seen to D&D's early alignment systems. Law vs Chaos was a common trope of 1970s fantasy like in Moorcock's Elric and Roger Zelazny's Amber series. However, both of these seemed very different from OD&D's version. Anderson's version seems much closer, linking into Christian myth. Anderson curiously has a pseudo-Europe that had Charlemagne in the past - but Muslims are defined as a part of Law, while Chaos is a giant empire of fey in the East repelled by iron and Christianity. D&D doesn't adapt this directly, but it seems most similar in feel.
Especially, AD&D elevates a distinctly Carolingian paladin as its most iconic symbol of good - which is taken quite directly from Three Hearts and Three Lions. It drops the stuff about fey, and substitutes demons and devils, but I think the ethos is similar.
Quote from: SHARK on April 24, 2023, 03:07:41 PM
Quote from: S'mon on April 24, 2023, 02:55:36 PM
Moorcock definitely needs to be read as a teenager. Preferably disaffected and convinced of one's own importance.
[...]
I also fondly remember Eddings, and the Belgariad series. I enjoyed it immensely. However, as the years went on, and he came out with new series, I found his writing to be...shallow and uninteresting. Not to be too harsh, as I was hugely inspired by his characters, dialogue, and storytelling in the first series, but afterwards, the Diamond Throne thingy, yeah. Just "Heh".
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
He basically reused the plot and characters for his initial series for the three other major series he wrote. And starting with the third one, he tried to get edgy and mature, which lasted for about the first 3 chapters of the first book. Still fun to read, but I got a very been-there/done-that feeling about the whole thing. Some of his other works were more original, but not all of them. I'm reminded of an author who said that each writer has a limited cast of characters in his mind, which he reuses for all of his stories, dressed in different costume.
Sounds like I need to read some of Anderson's fantasy. I'm a huge fan of his SF work, but the only fantasy book I read by him was Operation Chaos, which is definitely not D&D.
About Anderson, Moorcock, and alignment, this might be useful, as it explains most of the confusion:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2015/03/on-alignment-part-i-alignment-origins.html
Quote from: jhkim on April 24, 2023, 03:27:13 PM
Anderson curiously has a pseudo-Europe that had Charlemagne in the past - but Muslims are defined as a part of Law
Likewise Gygax has Dervishes in the 1e MM as Lawful Good, whereas the Master of the Desert Nomads has the Iran-ish Desert Nomads as Chaotic. Emirates of Ylaruam has the Sunni-ish Preceptors as Lawful and the Shia-ish Kin faction as Chaotic, reflecting the US alliance with Sunni-dominated Saudi Arabia. From my own reading, in Islam the universe is upheld at every moment solely through the Will of Allah, with no notion of Natural (scientific) Law, making it much more Chaotic (& rather akin to Nietzsche & Rousseau's emphasis on Will) than Christianity with its typical emphasis on Natural Law; God creating laws to guide the universe, and only occasionally intervening.
Hmm......
The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Sword and the Sorcerer, Dreams in the Witch House, and Conan the Barbarian.
Quote from: jhkim on April 24, 2023, 03:27:13 PM
I just read Poul Anderson's "Three Hearts and Three Lions" for the first time, and I thought it was very illuminating about D&D's roots - moreso than most of the others.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 23, 2023, 06:53:13 PM
Poul Anderson is another example. I find "the broken sword" much better than "three hearts and three Lions", but 3H3L has more D&D stuff.
Quote from: ForgottenF on April 22, 2023, 03:38:53 PM
Anderson's most famous fantasy novel is "Three Hearts and Three Lions", from which D&D derives the Paladin class and probably its alignment system. If you're only going to read one, though, I recommend "The Broken Sword", which is IMO his finest work, and will change the way you think about elves and trolls forever. If you want sci fi, Anderson's "Flandry of Terra" series, which starts with "Ensign Flandry" is tons of fun, too. Basically James Bond in space.
Quote from: Brad on April 22, 2023, 03:47:19 PM
Anderson, you must read the three books in the appendix. Three Hearts and Three Lions is where Gygax got trolls and paladins and swanmays and a bunch of other stuff, The High Crusade is great because it's EXACTLY how I'd envision an alien landing taking place, and The Broken Sword is just badass. It's his version of creating a new myth using old ones, and fantastic for understanding how the fae are supposed to operate in D&D (including elves).
Things that struck me about Three Hearts and Three Lions was especially how Anderson approached myth from a scientific viewpoint - with comments about the energy needed for magic, genetics of lycanthropy, and thermodynamics of dragons. AD&D doesn't use most of these specifics - but it has a lot of that mindset, like having "infravision" for seeing in the dark as seeing in infrared, psionics, and discussion of the energy of magic.
Also, I think Anderson's version of Law vs Chaos is the closest I've seen to D&D's early alignment systems. Law vs Chaos was a common trope of 1970s fantasy like in Moorcock's Elric and Roger Zelazny's Amber series. However, both of these seemed very different from OD&D's version. Anderson's version seems much closer, linking into Christian myth. Anderson curiously has a pseudo-Europe that had Charlemagne in the past - but Muslims are defined as a part of Law, while Chaos is a giant empire of fey in the East repelled by iron and Christianity. D&D doesn't adapt this directly, but it seems most similar in feel.
Especially, AD&D elevates a distinctly Carolingian paladin as its most iconic symbol of good - which is taken quite directly from Three Hearts and Three Lions. It drops the stuff about fey, and substitutes demons and devils, but I think the ethos is similar.
Three Hearts and Three Lions really helped me understand D&D's assumptions more than many other books
Quote from: S'mon on April 24, 2023, 04:06:26 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 24, 2023, 03:27:13 PM
Anderson curiously has a pseudo-Europe that had Charlemagne in the past - but Muslims are defined as a part of Law
Likewise Gygax has Dervishes in the 1e MM as Lawful Good, whereas the Master of the Desert Nomads has the Iran-ish Desert Nomads as Chaotic. Emirates of Ylaruam has the Sunni-ish Preceptors as Lawful and the Shia-ish Kin faction as Chaotic, reflecting the US alliance with Sunni-dominated Saudi Arabia. From my own reading, in Islam the universe is upheld at every moment solely through the Will of Allah, with no notion of Natural (scientific) Law, making it much more Chaotic (& rather akin to Nietzsche & Rousseau's emphasis on Will) than Christianity with its typical emphasis on Natural Law; God creating laws to guide the universe, and only occasionally intervening.
Regarding US alliance with Saudi Arabia -- yeah, it makes sense as a modernist take. From a historical perspective, it's weird to have a Christian Carolingian knight as the hero with lots of medieval references - but then have Muslims be on the same side. The book suggests that one of Chaos' strategies is to get Law to fight itself.
And this is a key point in the book since the protagonist's partner in the second half is a Saracen knight, though he is a Christian convert.
As the modernist interpretation, I suppose the evil anti-Christian fey empire in the east would be a metaphor for the Soviets. The details aren't strongly parallel, but it is pretty clear that they're in the region of Germany - and fighting the godless creatures to the east.
Quote from: Poul AndersonWell, you see, the world of Law– of man– is hemmed in with strangeness, like an island in the sea of the Middle World. Northward live the giants, southward the dragons. Here in Tarnberg we are close to the eastern edge of human settlement and know a trifle about such kingdoms as Faerie and Trollheim. But news travels slowly and gets dissipated in the process. So we have only vague distorted rumors of the western realms– not merely the Middle World domains out in the western ocean, like Avalon, Lyonesse, and Huy Braseal, but even the human countries like France and Spain.
Quote from: Poul AndersonWell, you see, the world of Law– of man– is hemmed in with strangeness, like an island in the sea of the Middle World. Northward live the giants, southward the dragons. Here in Tarnberg we are close to the eastern edge of human settlement and know a trifle about such kingdoms as Faerie and Trollheim. But news travels slowly and gets dissipated in the process. So we have only vague distorted rumors of the western realms– not merely the Middle World domains out in the western ocean, like Avalon, Lyonesse, and Huy Braseal, but even the human countries like France and Spain.
I see where B2's "The Realm of Man is Narrow and Constrained" came from!
Quote from: jhkim on April 24, 2023, 03:27:13 PM
I just read Poul Anderson's "Three Hearts and Three Lions" for the first time, and I thought it was very illuminating about D&D's roots - moreso than most of the others.
Things that struck me about Three Hearts and Three Lions was especially how Anderson approached myth from a scientific viewpoint - with comments about the energy needed for magic, genetics of lycanthropy, and thermodynamics of dragons. AD&D doesn't use most of these specifics - but it has a lot of that mindset, like having "infravision" for seeing in the dark as seeing in infrared, psionics, and discussion of the energy of magic.
Especially, AD&D elevates a distinctly Carolingian paladin as its most iconic symbol of good - which is taken quite directly from Three Hearts and Three Lions. It drops the stuff about fey, and substitutes demons and devils, but I think the ethos is similar.
I have a pet theory about fantasy as a genre. I usually describe it to neophytes as a composite genre, with the chief ingredients being science fiction, historical fiction, and folklore/mythology. Most of the great authors use all three, but they can be classed according to which of the three ingredients they most emphasize. Personally, I find this to be a more useful method of categorization than nebulous terms like "epic fantasy" or "dark fantasy".
Tolkien, Lewis and Alexander I would say are folklorists first. Howard and Martin clearly emphasize the historical element. Leiber, Vance and Moorcock take a more science fiction based approach. Under that schema, Poul Anderson is a bit of a strange case. Depending on the book, he mixes all three elements pretty evenly. 3H3L is roughly an even split between science fiction and folklore. The Broken Sword is almost purely in the myth/folklore camp, while Mother of Kings is much heavier on the historical fiction angle. Terry Pratchett is that way too, where he shifts up the proportions from book to book.
Quote from: ForgottenF on April 24, 2023, 08:20:02 AM
On the subject of "good, but not really Appendix N", I'd throw in Lloyd Alexander's "Chronicles of Prydain". They're more in the Tolkien/Lewis vein of fantasy than the Howard/Leiber one, and they're targeted at a younger audience (much in the same way that the Narnia books are), but I recommend them highly nevertheless. Great inspiration material if you want to incorporate a more authentic Anglo-Celtic tone into your D&D.
I have vivid memories of watching The Black Cauldron, and being very pleased that my school library had The Book of Three.
Hell a couple of years ago I bought a copy of the very same printing, just so I'd have it.
Quote from: S'mon on April 24, 2023, 02:55:36 PM
Moorcock definitely needs to be read as a teenager. Preferably disaffected and convinced of one's own importance.
I'm still enjoying him, but I'll admit as an adult there is a bit of irony in my enjoyment compared to the earnestness of my youth.
Also, the rankings of Moorcock I read are varying. I enjoy early Elric more than middle and later today compared to then (writing chronology, not internal) and the proto-Steampunk appeals much more than back then.
Quote from: SHARK on April 24, 2023, 03:07:41 PM
Quote from: S'mon on April 24, 2023, 02:55:36 PM
Moorcock definitely needs to be read as a teenager. Preferably disaffected and convinced of one's own importance.
Greetings!
Strange how Moorcock has such a profound effect upon adolescent readers--and yet, adult readers have generally reacted to Moorcock as being...distinctly uninspiring and mediocre. *Laughing*
I also fondly remember Eddings, and the Belgariad series. I enjoyed it immensely. However, as the years went on, and he came out with new series, I found his writing to be...shallow and uninteresting. Not to be too harsh, as I was hugely inspired by his characters, dialogue, and storytelling in the first series, but afterwards, the Diamond Throne thingy, yeah. Just "Heh".
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Eddings wrote his two main theories twice, longer and less fun the second time both times. I didn't read the standalone Polegra or Belgarath books. I did like the Riven Codex but it was like a poor man's Silmarillian in some ways.
Quote from: jhkim on April 24, 2023, 03:27:13 PM
I just read Poul Anderson's "Three Hearts and Three Lions" for the first time, and I thought it was very illuminating about D&D's roots - moreso than most of the others.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 23, 2023, 06:53:13 PM
Poul Anderson is another example. I find "the broken sword" much better than "three hearts and three Lions", but 3H3L has more D&D stuff.
Quote from: ForgottenF on April 22, 2023, 03:38:53 PM
Anderson's most famous fantasy novel is "Three Hearts and Three Lions", from which D&D derives the Paladin class and probably its alignment system. If you're only going to read one, though, I recommend "The Broken Sword", which is IMO his finest work, and will change the way you think about elves and trolls forever. If you want sci fi, Anderson's "Flandry of Terra" series, which starts with "Ensign Flandry" is tons of fun, too. Basically James Bond in space.
Quote from: Brad on April 22, 2023, 03:47:19 PM
Anderson, you must read the three books in the appendix. Three Hearts and Three Lions is where Gygax got trolls and paladins and swanmays and a bunch of other stuff, The High Crusade is great because it's EXACTLY how I'd envision an alien landing taking place, and The Broken Sword is just badass. It's his version of creating a new myth using old ones, and fantastic for understanding how the fae are supposed to operate in D&D (including elves).
Things that struck me about Three Hearts and Three Lions was especially how Anderson approached myth from a scientific viewpoint - with comments about the energy needed for magic, genetics of lycanthropy, and thermodynamics of dragons. AD&D doesn't use most of these specifics - but it has a lot of that mindset, like having "infravision" for seeing in the dark as seeing in infrared, psionics, and discussion of the energy of magic.
Also, I think Anderson's version of Law vs Chaos is the closest I've seen to D&D's early alignment systems. Law vs Chaos was a common trope of 1970s fantasy like in Moorcock's Elric and Roger Zelazny's Amber series. However, both of these seemed very different from OD&D's version. Anderson's version seems much closer, linking into Christian myth. Anderson curiously has a pseudo-Europe that had Charlemagne in the past - but Muslims are defined as a part of Law, while Chaos is a giant empire of fey in the East repelled by iron and Christianity. D&D doesn't adapt this directly, but it seems most similar in feel.
Especially, AD&D elevates a distinctly Carolingian paladin as its most iconic symbol of good - which is taken quite directly from Three Hearts and Three Lions. It drops the stuff about fey, and substitutes demons and devils, but I think the ethos is similar.
I don't think it's an accident that of the three versions of Law & Chaos you cited Anderson is the closest to AD&D.
Major reason: Gygax's faith and its strong influence on D&D via cleric spells initially and some magic items and later the paladin.
Minor reason: It's the oldest of the three so probably what Gygax read first.
Quote from: ForgottenF on April 24, 2023, 10:05:16 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 24, 2023, 03:27:13 PM
I just read Poul Anderson's "Three Hearts and Three Lions" for the first time, and I thought it was very illuminating about D&D's roots - moreso than most of the others.
Things that struck me about Three Hearts and Three Lions was especially how Anderson approached myth from a scientific viewpoint - with comments about the energy needed for magic, genetics of lycanthropy, and thermodynamics of dragons. AD&D doesn't use most of these specifics - but it has a lot of that mindset, like having "infravision" for seeing in the dark as seeing in infrared, psionics, and discussion of the energy of magic.
Especially, AD&D elevates a distinctly Carolingian paladin as its most iconic symbol of good - which is taken quite directly from Three Hearts and Three Lions. It drops the stuff about fey, and substitutes demons and devils, but I think the ethos is similar.
I have a pet theory about fantasy as a genre. I usually describe it to neophytes as a composite genre, with the chief ingredients being science fiction, historical fiction, and folklore/mythology. Most of the great authors use all three, but they can be classed according to which of the three ingredients they most emphasize. Personally, I find this to be a more useful method of categorization than nebulous terms like "epic fantasy" or "dark fantasy".
Tolkien, Lewis and Alexander I would say are folklorists first. Howard and Martin clearly emphasize the historical element. Leiber, Vance and Moorcock take a more science fiction based approach. Under that schema, Poul Anderson is a bit of a strange case. Depending on the book, he mixes all three elements pretty evenly. 3H3L is roughly an even split between science fiction and folklore. The Broken Sword is almost purely in the myth/folklore camp, while Mother of Kings is much heavier on the historical fiction angle. Terry Pratchett is that way too, where he shifts up the proportions from book to book.
This is an interesting idea, especially given the emergence of fantasy as a commercial genre label, separating it out from other fantastic fiction.
I need to think about this one a bit, especially if it works for older authors like Dunsany, Morris, etc.
For the Conan stories, I recommend the unadulterated Howard stories. Something like this series: https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Conan-Cimmerian-Original-Adventures/dp/0345461517/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3N7ZB7NQ2TL6P&keywords=conan+howard&qid=1682460339&s=books&sprefix=conan+howard%2Cstripbooks-intl-ship%2C144&sr=1-1
It's expensive, but you can get them free (and legally) online: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Author:Robert_Ervin_Howard#Conan_the_Barbarian
As to the others in Appendix N, as you've probably realised, there is no agreement. At the risk of being burned at the stake, I'm not that keen on LOTR, CAS or HPL. Even within an author's work, it can be variable; I wasn't a fan of some of Vance's work, but loved the Cugel saga. Every book belongs on Appendix N because some people love it, though your mileage may vary.
I've started reading the holes in Appendix N myself recently. My favourite so far was The High Crusade, which is a very tongue-in-cheek story about a small medieval English army taking on a vast space empire.
Quote from: ForgottenF on April 24, 2023, 10:05:16 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 24, 2023, 03:27:13 PM
I just read Poul Anderson's "Three Hearts and Three Lions" for the first time, and I thought it was very illuminating about D&D's roots - moreso than most of the others.
Things that struck me about Three Hearts and Three Lions was especially how Anderson approached myth from a scientific viewpoint - with comments about the energy needed for magic, genetics of lycanthropy, and thermodynamics of dragons. AD&D doesn't use most of these specifics - but it has a lot of that mindset, like having "infravision" for seeing in the dark as seeing in infrared, psionics, and discussion of the energy of magic.
Especially, AD&D elevates a distinctly Carolingian paladin as its most iconic symbol of good - which is taken quite directly from Three Hearts and Three Lions. It drops the stuff about fey, and substitutes demons and devils, but I think the ethos is similar.
I have a pet theory about fantasy as a genre. I usually describe it to neophytes as a composite genre, with the chief ingredients being science fiction, historical fiction, and folklore/mythology. Most of the great authors use all three, but they can be classed according to which of the three ingredients they most emphasize. Personally, I find this to be a more useful method of categorization than nebulous terms like "epic fantasy" or "dark fantasy".
Tolkien, Lewis and Alexander I would say are folklorists first. Howard and Martin clearly emphasize the historical element. Leiber, Vance and Moorcock take a more science fiction based approach. Under that schema, Poul Anderson is a bit of a strange case. Depending on the book, he mixes all three elements pretty evenly. 3H3L is roughly an even split between science fiction and folklore. The Broken Sword is almost purely in the myth/folklore camp, while Mother of Kings is much heavier on the historical fiction angle. Terry Pratchett is that way too, where he shifts up the proportions from book to book.
Interesting stuff! I was discussing if "The Winter King" could be classified as fantasy since it contained a little magic in it. Your perspective clarifies things I bit.
I tried my hand at classification a while ago, but didn't get too far.
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/03/my-weird-dark-twisted-fantasy.html
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-h3OVQe9YLFk/YFYMbTif-AI/AAAAAAAADU4/K6-Po7HZsdMqcnrheLjKQ75CifENqSV4ACLcBGAsYHQ/s571/fantasy.png)
Henry Kuttner's Elak of Atlantis stories are also very much D&Dish in style.
Looking for Anthologies I found an anthology Flashing Swords, and it has a recent release "Flashing Swords #6" (2021). I don't understand the situation with some negative comments it seems some American are too sensible. In any case reading the positive comments is a great collection, the book is here:
https://www.amazon.com/Lin-Carters-Flashing-Swords-Anthology/dp/9187611384
Quote from: Cathal on April 26, 2023, 04:14:41 PM
Looking for Anthologies I found an anthology Flashing Swords, and it has a recent release "Flashing Swords #6" (2021). I don't understand the situation with some negative comments it seems some American are too sensible. In any case reading the positive comments is a great collection, the book is here:
https://www.amazon.com/Lin-Carters-Flashing-Swords-Anthology/dp/9187611384
I used to read those (and other anthologies), and liked them a lot. Lin Carter was a great guy too. Yeah, apparently Sword and Sorcery has aspects that get some folks all bent out of shape. I only learned that a few months ago, from reading some blogs. Go figure. IMO it's a classic genre that I enjoy.
Quote from: Baron on April 26, 2023, 04:19:13 PM
Quote from: Cathal on April 26, 2023, 04:14:41 PM
Looking for Anthologies I found an anthology Flashing Swords, and it has a recent release "Flashing Swords #6" (2021). I don't understand the situation with some negative comments it seems some American are too sensible. In any case reading the positive comments is a great collection, the book is here:
https://www.amazon.com/Lin-Carters-Flashing-Swords-Anthology/dp/9187611384
I used to read those (and other anthologies), and liked them a lot. Lin Carter was a great guy too. Yeah, apparently Sword and Sorcery has aspects that get some folks all bent out of shape. I only learned that a few months ago, from reading some blogs. Go figure. IMO it's a classic genre that I enjoy.
My main issue with S&S anthologies is that the quality of the writing tends to vary widely. I have no problem with the content; the more gratuitous sex and violence, the better. I'm not reading this stuff because I like or expect Jane Austen.
Quote from: Baron on April 26, 2023, 04:19:13 PM
Quote from: Cathal on April 26, 2023, 04:14:41 PM
Looking for Anthologies I found an anthology Flashing Swords, and it has a recent release "Flashing Swords #6" (2021). I don't understand the situation with some negative comments it seems some American are too sensible. In any case reading the positive comments is a great collection, the book is here:
https://www.amazon.com/Lin-Carters-Flashing-Swords-Anthology/dp/9187611384
I used to read those (and other anthologies), and liked them a lot. Lin Carter was a great guy too. Yeah, apparently Sword and Sorcery has aspects that get some folks all bent out of shape. I only learned that a few months ago, from reading some blogs. Go figure. IMO it's a classic genre that I enjoy.
I'm searching over the internet and unfortunately what I found Swords and Sorcery is shifting, maybe in the future the Swords and Sorcery we all know will be lost, for something completely different named Sword & Sorcery.
Quote from: Persimmon on April 26, 2023, 05:19:54 PM
My main issue with S&S anthologies is that the quality of the writing tends to vary widely. I have no problem with the content; the more gratuitous sex and violence, the better. I'm not reading this stuff because I like or expect Jane Austen.
For the moment I'm focusing my reading in the book bought and in the classics if is possible. The classics seems to be free.
It probably goes without saying but La Morte De Arthur, The Illiad, The Oddessy, Gilgamesh, and Beowulf.
Quote from: David Johansen on April 26, 2023, 07:27:59 PM
It probably goes without saying but La Morte De Arthur, The Illiad, The Oddessy, Gilgamesh, and Beowulf.
Interesting selection David ;) Thank you for sharing.
One thing I've been wondering for a while is whether there's a decent English translation or compilation of The Matter or France or the legends of Charlemange? I've got Bullfinch's Mythology but it's tedious and dull. I'd also like a good version of the Ulster Cycle.
Any suggestions?
Quote from: Rhymer88 on April 26, 2023, 10:00:08 AM
Henry Kuttner's Elak of Atlantis stories are also very much D&Dish in style.
Adrian Cole has continued Elak's stories. Not as good as the Kuttner stuff, but worth reading.
Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2023, 08:44:05 PM
One thing I've been wondering for a while is whether there's a decent English translation or compilation of The Matter or France or the legends of Charlemange? I've got Bullfinch's Mythology but it's tedious and dull. I'd also like a good version of the Ulster Cycle.
Any suggestions?
I don't know of any compilations, but there are English translations of the Chanson de Roland and Huon de Bordeaux. The main Italian epics (Orlando Furioso and Orlando Innamorato) are also available in English.
I found this book Flame and Crimson: A History of Sword-and-Sorcery
https://www.amazon.com/Flame-Crimson-History-Sword-Sorcery/dp/1683902440
Review
- https://rogue-blades.com/2021/05/14/flame-and-crimson-linking-sword-and-sorcery-to-todays-world/
- https://jwwrightauthor.wordpress.com/2021/02/11/review-of-flame-and-crimson-a-history-of-sword-and-sorcery-by-brian-murphy/
Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2023, 08:44:05 PM
One thing I've been wondering for a while is whether there's a decent English translation or compilation of The Matter or France or the legends of Charlemange? I've got Bullfinch's Mythology but it's tedious and dull. I'd also like a good version of the Ulster Cycle.
Any suggestions?
Define decent.
I have an academic translation somewhere. It's readable but was expensive 40 years ago and might not be in print.
Decent would be readable, entertaining, and cheaply available I guess.
I got a fair ways into Bulfinch on the matter of France.
Really, Penguin Classics level decent I guess.