There have been many studies that confirm people judge and respond based on a person's appearance.
Not just skin color and weight but dress as well.
This is a huge factor in initial contact between "Real People" and yet I hardly see it mentioned In Game.
Is this a blind spot or is it intentional?
Should such a real world factor be included or would that alienate players?
I rarely run a game where most people are as status conscious as they would be in a typical medieval setting (or many other settings, for that matter). Of course, some people are, and some of those are fairly extreme. When a character is status conscious, they can play it up as much as they want. When they meet an NPC that is (or pretends to be for some other reason), I'll do the same. Otherwise, it's reduced to things such as, "the local folk eye you warily," or whatever is appropriate to minimally convey the scene.
That's the thing. I'm mostly a minimalist when it comes to portraying any scene, and thus the way people react to appearance in my games is just another facet of that approach. Partly this is my natural instincts to run a game, and partly it is how I express drama--drama distinct from real life. I don't want to talk about everyone's eye color or hair color or skin color or dress--because when I do bring it up for a particular character, I want it to stand out without being over the top.
Depends on each game premise. In D&D it's usually useless. In more social ones like Vampire or Pendragon it's usually more useful. While in games like Monsterhearts it's crucial.
To use D&D 5e as an example, my players know that carrying heavy weapons and wearing heavy armor covered in the mud & blood spatters from adventuring is going to get them, at the least, disadvantage on many social rolls and likely turned away from many civilized areas.
Attractive gives +1 to reaction rolls, Beautiful gives +2 / +4 to the opposite sex, very beautiful +3/+6 but causes other problems.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1123453To use D&D 5e as an example, my players know that carrying heavy weapons and wearing heavy armor covered in the mud & blood spatters from adventuring is going to get them, at the least, disadvantage on many social rolls and likely turned away from many civilized areas.
A good reason to stop outside the city and get cleaned up first before presenting yourself to the gatekeepers.
Quote from: Itachi;1123449Depends on each game premise. In D&D it's usually useless. In more social ones like Vampire or Pendragon it's usually more useful. While in games like Monsterhearts it's crucial.
How so..? I usually run my AD&D games super racist, so any elves/dwarves/halflings going into a human town are going to have a hard time not being ostracized. Also, good luck trying to convince anyone of anything if you look like you just stepped out of the dumpster.
I'd say appearance matters quite a bit in my games, as it should.
Quote from: Brad;1123462How so..? I usually run my AD&D games super racist, so any elves/dwarves/halflings going into a human town are going to have a hard time not being ostracized. Also, good luck trying to convince anyone of anything if you look like you just stepped out of the dumpster.
I'd say appearance matters quite a bit in my games, as it should.
Question: do you use Charisma as an appearance analog? Or do you use the Comeliness attribute?
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1123464Question: do you use Charisma as an appearance analog? Or do you use the Comeliness attribute?
Charisma is associated with appearance In Real Life, so I go that route. I think Comeliness was a needless UA addition. Also, you can be the ugliest mofo ever, but if you're wearing royal apparel and act noble, people will treat you with at least feigned respect. The most beautiful slave girl is still treated like a slave.
For games that have an actual appearance attribute like BRP, GURPS, HERO, etc., I just use that, but tell the players whenever they're negatively/positively affecting the value.
Is fashion a thing?
Do people notice what the people in power wear and try to copy them or at least wear things that they hope those people will like?
Are manicures, pedicures, haircuts and maybe makeup of any importance?
Does loot get spent on them?
Quote from: Greentongue;1123474Is fashion a thing?
Do people notice what the people in power wear and try to copy them or at least wear things that they hope those people will like?
Are manicures, pedicures, haircuts and maybe makeup of any importance?
Does loot get spent on them?
Greetings!
Yes, in my campaigns things like appearance, fashion, cosmetics, beauty, professionalism, class and status are all very important. Just like in our own real world history, virtually everywhere in the ancient and medieval worlds, these things were also very important. They are important right now, to varying degrees.
I have actually experimented at my work in the past. When dressed casually, with say a decent shirt, jeans, and shoes on. People are typically range from indifferent to friendly. Put on a sharp suit, coat, tie, dress shoes, cologne--and the reaction is obviously very different, from both men and women. Work, restaurants, hotels, airports, shops, virtually everywhere, the response is much more positive, formal, and respectful.
In the campaign, all of these things matter in determining how people and businesses and services respond to you. Many refuse to serve rough looking people, poor, or otherwise foreigners or scum. Others give brief, minimal service. Dressing and looking appropriate gains far better reactions. The women are especially keen on pedicures, manicures, getting their hair done, perfume, stylish jewelry, fashionable clothing, and looking as good as possible. Likewise, the men gain benefits when looking dressed up and sharp, or even professionally in a simple, or rustic way. Appropriate dress, being clean and well-groomed, smelling good--these things go over well regardless of actual class, wealth, or status.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Depends on the setting.
In a Star Wars-style space fantasy or a general fantasy kitchen sink with numerous sapient species of different biologies and body plans appearance is generally lumped into a Presence or Charisma stat because its just one of many factors involved with interpersonal relations.
In a more mono-species (ex. human-only) setting allowing it to be a more distinct element with its only pluses and minuses is more worth doing, but it needn't be an actual stat.
In the Mutants & Masterminds campaign I play in most people are presumed to be "comic book average" (i.e. attractive by our standards, but unremarkable as drawn by genre artists) with extreme beauty or ugliness being a Complication (one PC had "Mega-Presence" as their power in that they could almost magically persuade others to do whatever they wanted and part of that was extreme beauty that basically made them the constant focus of attention by Paparazzi and the like).
Quote from: Greentongue;1123447Is this a blind spot or is it intentional? Should such a real world factor be included or would that alienate players?
I have been working on a game system in which attractiveness is purchased as an advantage. You could also certainly affect a roll based on other factors of presentation (how you dress, 'acting', etc).
Comeliness has come and gone in D&D, so for some in game it certainly factors in.
Quote from: Lynn;1123481I have been working on a game system in which attractiveness is purchased as an advantage.
As SHARK mentioned, attractiveness only goes so far if you are trying to be treated with respect.
Attractiveness can certainly be used for "Femme / Homme Fatale" type of characters not to mention other "Professions".
Quote from: Greentongue;1123502As SHARK mentioned, attractiveness only goes so far if you are trying to be treated with respect.
Attractiveness can certainly be used for "Femme / Homme Fatale" type of characters not to mention other "Professions".
But it can go far and farther in combination. Dressing right and having good manners can go hand in hand with attractiveness. And attractiveness itself can be a handful of different attributes, some of which you can take as sexual and others not.
Quote from: Brad;1123462How so..? I usually run my AD&D games super racist, so any elves/dwarves/halflings going into a human town are going to have a hard time not being ostracized. Also, good luck trying to convince anyone of anything if you look like you just stepped out of the dumpster.
I'd say appearance matters quite a bit in my games, as it should.
Well that's cool. I just think there are better tools for the job if one wants games where the social aspect matters.
Quote from: Itachi;1123518Well that's cool. I just think there are better tools for the job if one wants games where the social aspect matters.
In my experience, RPGs that have "better tools" for the social part end up being worse than ones that have nothing.
Quote from: Greentongue;1123447Should such a real world factor be included or would that alienate players?
Should is the wrong question. And yes, including it
will alienate some players. And it will attract some other players.
I've played with systems that include Appearance or Comeliness as a stat (C&S, RQ, CoC, JB007,), with other systems, like D&D, that lump appearance into a somewhat vague catchall like Charisma, with other systems that treat unusual appearance as a boon or flaw (H+I, BoL), and with systems that have no rules for appearance (Star Wars D6, Boothill).
In my experience most players will just roll with whatever the system does or does not provide.
What does it mean to be a good looking gnome, halfling, or orc?
How about for a creature that is difficult to identify the gender, like a lizardman (lizardperson?)?
Does talking about carefully filing down your teeth to sharp points (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_tooth_sharpening) help or hurt you when dealing with groups outside of your immediate cultural heritage?
These types of questions are very complicated, and a universal rule creates weird results. Do you want a lizard person with a Comeliness of 33 to cause riots in a human city as the men fight for the right to perform the mating dance with her? If not, then setting those affects aside mechanically is usually for the best. We don't worry about whether a character has a preference for blondes or brunettes unless it becomes important for the story. If it's a PC, it's a choice thing, and the DM gets to decide whether to describe an NPC in a way that the player will respond to positively, or not. If it's for an NPC it probably only matters if they do some research, and if they want to set a honeypot trap for the night guard it'll matter what type of woman they need to alter self to appear as.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1123538What does it mean to be a good looking gnome, halfling, or orc?
How about for a creature that is difficult to identify the gender, like a lizardman (lizardperson?)?
Does talking about carefully filing down your teeth to sharp points (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_tooth_sharpening) help or hurt you when dealing with groups outside of your immediate cultural heritage?
These types of questions are very complicated, and a universal rule creates weird results. Do you want a lizard person with a Comeliness of 33 to cause riots in a human city as the men fight for the right to perform the mating dance with her? If not, then setting those affects aside mechanically is usually for the best. We don't worry about whether a character has a preference for blondes or brunettes unless it becomes important for the story. If it's a PC, it's a choice thing, and the DM gets to decide whether to describe an NPC in a way that the player will respond to positively, or not. If it's for an NPC it probably only matters if they do some research, and if they want to set a honeypot trap for the night guard it'll matter what type of woman they need to alter self to appear as.
A good point. I once played a draconic bloodline sorcerer in a PF campaign, where as he advanced, more 'draconic' aspects appeared (funny skin texture, slit-pupiled eyes, etc). Because his Charisma was stupidly high, I described him as having a strange, almost alien beauty... which meant he went around wrapped up in dun-colored robes to avoid attention.
It was pretty funny watching him try to avoid the elven rogue who had a predilection for 'anything that moves' if you know what I mean. :D
Quote from: Brad;1123524In my experience, RPGs that have "better tools" for the social part end up being worse than ones that have nothing.
We had distinct experiences then. My group sessions with Vampire and Monsterhearts were a blast.
What about symbols of wealth / power?
Do players respond well to them? Use them to influence others?
React when those are part of the NPC description?
It certainly influences people in "Real Life".
Quote from: Greentongue;1123559What about symbols of wealth / power?
Do players respond well to them? Use them to influence others?
React when those are part of the NPC description?
It certainly influences people in "Real Life".
I can imagine circumstance bonuses for this. A part of that could be used with a Disguise skill to pretend to be a foreign noble or wealthy merchant.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1123538What does it mean to be a good looking gnome, halfling, or orc?
How about for a creature that is difficult to identify the gender, like a lizardman (lizardperson?)?
In systems where there was an Appearance stat for non-human humanoids, the stat seemed to be baselined to general human norms. So most non-humans had a lower average and maximum than did humans, while a few like elves had higher average and maximum. Alternatively one could use an unspecific stat and apply a cross species penalty (or bonus) to avoid the situation of the ridiculously comely lizard person while allowing the very attractive elfin prince or princess.
QuoteDoes talking about carefully filing down your teeth to sharp points (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_tooth_sharpening) help or hurt you when dealing with groups outside of your immediate cultural heritage?
Depends on whether or not you are smiling. :D
I'd treat that as something where a cultural bonus or penalty should apply. The same issue of different species or cultural norms would also apply to a stat like Charisma where what is considered inspiring or persuasive will vary somewhat, but for some reason more players are willing to give that a pass than will do so for Appearance.
Quote from: Greentongue;1123559What about symbols of wealth / power?
Do players respond well to them? Use them to influence others?
React when those are part of the NPC description?
It certainly influences people in "Real Life".
Some players do when their PC is trying to influence NPCs. (Usually the same players who pay attention to NPCs and setting details.) Few do when NPCs (or other players) might want to influence their PC.
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1123547A good point. I once played a draconic bloodline sorcerer in a PF campaign, where as he advanced, more 'draconic' aspects appeared (funny skin texture, slit-pupiled eyes, etc). Because his Charisma was stupidly high, I described him as having a strange, almost alien beauty... which meant he went around wrapped up in dun-colored robes to avoid attention.
That is why Robin wears a mask, to hide his beauty.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4188[/ATTACH]
I assume a character with high Seduction skill (mini six rpg) is likely good looking, or at least can present as such. A 5e D&D PC with high Persuasion likely is as well. I don't see a need for an Appearance or Comeliness stat, I think it works best as a derived attribute of charisma/charm/seduction/persuasion/diplomacy etc, and largely up to the player or GM.
Do you think the appearance of the players in "Real Life" makes it an avoided topic?
Doesn't make sense that something that impacts daily life is glossed over so much.
On the other hand, going to the "bathroom" isn't talked about much either.
Quote from: Greentongue;1123618Do you think the appearance of the players in "Real Life" makes it an avoided topic?
I don't see why it would be. We're not talking about how attractive the players are IRL.
Quote from: Greentongue;1123618Do you think the appearance of the players in "Real Life" makes it an avoided topic?
I'd say for some folks that can be a factor.
QuoteOn the other hand, going to the "bathroom" isn't talked about much either.
No it's never been a major focus in any campaign I've ever seen. But it does, at times, get talked about e.g. characters in a bar at some point have to take a piss and this may be used to facilitate a side conversation or ambush. In Star Wars I often have separate facilities for non-humans to emphasize the Imperial New Order anti-alien bias. And bathing or showering is occasionally talked about. To be fair, food and drink is much less of a focus in RPGs than it is for most people in the real world. I suspect there are quite a few players who couldn't tell you what foods each of their PC likes and dislikes or what their favorite desert is.
Quote from: Greentongue;1123618Do you think the appearance of the players in "Real Life" makes it an avoided topic? Doesn't make sense that something that impacts daily life is glossed over so much. On the other hand, going to the "bathroom" isn't talked about much either.
Not all games emphasize the same thing. I think it is quite relevant, but it may also be more relevant in games in which all characters and most NPCs are assumed to be of the same species.
It is funny that you mention toilets in dungeons. A 3d content business I have was designing dungeon content and I brought that up. So a bathroom was created. If a dungeon builder is going to go to all the trouble of putting in funky fountains and various tricks and the like, they should also take into account some vents and poop drops. Keeps the otyugh on level 20 happy.
We don't typically pay much attention to it in a D&D-style "adventurer fantasy" game set in frontier settings. D&D characters are generally weirdo outsiders in their society, but they are weirdo outsiders capable of blasting your crappy little kingdom into atoms, or solving its various monster problems, or both. Decorum and appearances matter less than a good sword hand or supernatural powers.
In our pseudo-historical game, appearances count much more. Indeed, you are how you look - without modern identification systems, if you can don an outfit and convincingly act the part, you are considered that person - a clergyman, a minor noble, a tavern wench, a lackey, or a landsknecht. If you don't make a major slip-up, people have no reason not to take you at face value - first. Appearances, presentation, and social conventions have a central role, and in a civilised society, they matter a lot.
Quote from: Melan;1123630We don't typically pay much attention to it in a D&D-style "adventurer fantasy" game set in frontier settings. D&D characters are generally weirdo outsiders in their society, but they are weirdo outsiders capable of blasting your crappy little kingdom into atoms, or solving its various monster problems, or both. Decorum and appearances matter less than a good sword hand or supernatural powers.
Beautiful description.
Quote from: Melan;1123630In our pseudo-historical game, appearances count much more. Indeed, you are how you look - without modern identification systems, if you can don an outfit and convincingly act the part, you are considered that person - a clergyman, a minor noble, a tavern wench, a lackey, or a landsknecht. If you don't make a major slip-up, people have no reason not to take you at face value - first. Appearances, presentation, and social conventions have a central role, and in a civilised society, they matter a lot.
While they may not have a reason not to take you at face value, your appearance doesn't give them any particular reason to trust you. Pre-modern society is even more about personal connections than is our own. So identification is frequently personal. Someone who is already known, and reputable, in the society you are entering vouches for you or you draw connections based on birth and marriage to someone who is connected to a known and reputable person.* You may be able to fake that connection, but to do that you can't just look the part, you also need specialized knowledge about the (presumably distant) family you are pretending to be a member of.
* And if you are unlucky you may inadvertently connect yourself to an enemy of the person you are trying to impress. When two strangers meet, figuring out whether they have familial or very strong friendship ties or enmities is a one reason epic heroes list out family relationships and personal accomplishments when they meet.
Appearance is important in most of my games.
The James Bond 007 game had a great idea that Beautiful and Ugly people drew attention and the more extreme, the more memorable.
Thus, in non-point buy games, I generally let players describe their PC's appearance. If they choose an extreme, then there are benefits and repercussions.
Bren: There is certainly a difference between a cursory glance and close scrutiny. I am a fan of 17th-18th century picaresque novels, and they are full of situations where someone (mostly the unlucky protagonist) pretends to be Sir So-and-So or Abbé Such-and-Such, gets accepted, only to have the disguise collapse in a hilarious and horrible way when he meets someone who has in-depth knowledge he does not. I am referring to that level of subterfuge - a set of clothes may let you bypass a guard or even commandeer a squad of soldiers, but you need to stay on your feet to keep the charade going. Which is the effect I desire in the game, really.
Quote from: Melan;1123672Bren: There is certainly a difference between a cursory glance and close scrutiny. I am a fan of 17th-18th century picaresque novels, and they are full of situations where someone (mostly the unlucky protagonist) pretends to be Sir So-and-So or Abbé Such-and-Such, gets accepted, only to have the disguise collapse in a hilarious and horrible way when he meets someone who has in-depth knowledge he does not. I am referring to that level of subterfuge - a set of clothes may let you bypass a guard or even commandeer a squad of soldiers, but you need to stay on your feet to keep the charade going. Which is the effect I desire in the game, really.
Agreed. Being armored like a knight and mounted on a warhorse (assuming you can ride fairly well) would let you pass as a knight at least up until the point where you have to walk and talk like a knight. And what acting like a knight requires will vary depending on what knightly behavior entails in that particular place and time. If an example of the possible difficulties is needed, see
My Fair Lady or
Pygmalion. (I just happened to rewatch the former recently.)
That's one reason that the outlier character in a group may take on the role of someone from very far away to provide an excuse for any unusual behavior or appearance.
Like Kirk's attempt to explain Spock's ears to a policeman from earth in the 1930s
Kirk: My friend... is obviously Chinese... I see you've noticed the ears; they're actually easy to explain... [looks to Spock helplessly]
Spock: Perhaps the unfortunate accident I had as a child...
Kirk: The unfortunate accident he had as a child. He caught his head in a mechanical...rice picker... But fortunately, there was an American...missionary living close by who was actually a, uh, skilled, uh, plastic surgeon in civilian life--
Quote from: Bren;1123791Agreed. Being armored like a knight and mounted on a warhorse (assuming you can ride fairly well) would let you pass as a knight at least up until the point where you have to walk and talk like a knight. And what acting like a knight requires will vary depending on what knightly behavior entails in that particular place and time. If an example of the possible difficulties is needed, see My Fair Lady or Pygmalion. (I just happened to rewatch the former recently.)
That's one reason that the outlier character in a group may take on the role of someone from very far away to provide an excuse for any unusual behavior or appearance.
Like Kirk's attempt to explain Spock's ears to a policeman from earth in the 1930s
Kirk: My friend... is obviously Chinese... I see you've noticed the ears; they're actually easy to explain... [looks to Spock helplessly]
Spock: Perhaps the unfortunate accident I had as a child...
Kirk: The unfortunate accident he had as a child. He caught his head in a mechanical...rice picker... But fortunately, there was an American...missionary living close by who was actually a, uh, skilled, uh, plastic surgeon in civilian life--
And that is how you depict a high charisma character
completely blowing the bluff check :D
Fashion and its contextual rules is very much a thing in most of my games. It is a form of treasure and distinction, along with cultural and status designation -- even symbolism for more obscure meaning. Same goes for other aspects of presentation, like language. How you present yourself, and to whom, matters deeply in the majority of my campaigns. It is a soft form of setting contextual control, versus the typical hard form of rules mechanical control. :)
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1123802And that is how you depict a high charisma character completely blowing the bluff check :D
This is the one I think of as classic.
Spoiler
Han Solo: Uh, everything's under control. Situation normal.
Comm Voice: What happened?
Han Solo: Uh, we had a slight weapons malfunction, but uh... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?
[winces]
Comm Voice: We're sending a squad up.
Han Solo: Uh, negative, negative. We have, uh, a reactor leak here, uh, now. Give us a few minutes to lock it down. Uh, large leak, very dangerous.
Comm Voice: Who is this? What's your operating number?
Han Solo: Uh...
[ZAP!]
Boring conversation anyway. Luke, we're going to have company!
Quote from: Bren;1123791Agreed. Being armored like a knight and mounted on a warhorse (assuming you can ride fairly well) would let you pass as a knight at least up until the point where you have to walk and talk like a knight. And what acting like a knight requires will vary depending on what knightly behavior entails in that particular place and time. If an example of the possible difficulties is needed, see My Fair Lady or Pygmalion. (I just happened to rewatch the former recently.)
That's one reason that the outlier character in a group may take on the role of someone from very far away to provide an excuse for any unusual behavior or appearance.
Like Kirk's attempt to explain Spock's ears to a policeman from earth in the 1930s
Kirk: My friend... is obviously Chinese... I see you've noticed the ears; they're actually easy to explain... [looks to Spock helplessly]
Spock: Perhaps the unfortunate accident I had as a child...
Kirk: The unfortunate accident he had as a child. He caught his head in a mechanical...rice picker... But fortunately, there was an American...missionary living close by who was actually a, uh, skilled, uh, plastic surgeon in civilian life--
Kirk's explanation was as plausible in that universe as any of the tech explanations.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1123818Kirk's explanation was as plausible in that universe as any of the tech explanations.
You have a point. :D It ain't called technobabble for no reason.