Quote from: Brad;1123462How so..? I usually run my AD&D games super racist, so any elves/dwarves/halflings going into a human town are going to have a hard time not being ostracized. Also, good luck trying to convince anyone of anything if you look like you just stepped out of the dumpster.

I'd say appearance matters quite a bit in my games, as it should.

Well that's cool. I just think there are better tools for the job if one wants games where the social aspect matters.

Quote from: Itachi;1123518Well that's cool. I just think there are better tools for the job if one wants games where the social aspect matters.

In my experience, RPGs that have "better tools" for the social part end up being worse than ones that have nothing.

Quote from: Greentongue;1123447Should such a real world factor be included or would that alienate players?

Should is the wrong question. And yes, including it will alienate some players. And it will attract some other players.

I've played with systems that include Appearance or Comeliness as a stat (C&S, RQ, CoC, JB007,), with other systems, like D&D, that lump appearance into a somewhat vague catchall like Charisma, with other systems that treat unusual appearance as a boon or flaw (H+I, BoL), and with systems that have no rules for appearance (Star Wars D6, Boothill).

In my experience most players will just roll with whatever the system does or does not provide.

What does it mean to be a good looking gnome, halfling, or orc?  

How about for a creature that is difficult to identify the gender, like a lizardman (lizardperson?)?

Does talking about carefully filing down your teeth to sharp points help or hurt you when dealing with groups outside of your immediate cultural heritage?  

These types of questions are very complicated, and a universal rule creates weird results.  Do you want a lizard person with a Comeliness of 33 to cause riots in a human city as the men fight for the right to perform the mating dance with her?  If not, then setting those affects aside mechanically is usually for the best.  We don't worry about whether a character has a preference for blondes or brunettes unless it becomes important for the story.  If it's a PC, it's a choice thing, and the DM gets to decide whether to describe an NPC in a way that the player will respond to positively, or not.  If it's for an NPC it probably only matters if they do some research, and if they want to set a honeypot trap for the night guard it'll matter what type of woman they need to alter self to appear as.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1123538What does it mean to be a good looking gnome, halfling, or orc?  

How about for a creature that is difficult to identify the gender, like a lizardman (lizardperson?)?

Does talking about carefully filing down your teeth to sharp points help or hurt you when dealing with groups outside of your immediate cultural heritage?  

These types of questions are very complicated, and a universal rule creates weird results.  Do you want a lizard person with a Comeliness of 33 to cause riots in a human city as the men fight for the right to perform the mating dance with her?  If not, then setting those affects aside mechanically is usually for the best.  We don't worry about whether a character has a preference for blondes or brunettes unless it becomes important for the story.  If it's a PC, it's a choice thing, and the DM gets to decide whether to describe an NPC in a way that the player will respond to positively, or not.  If it's for an NPC it probably only matters if they do some research, and if they want to set a honeypot trap for the night guard it'll matter what type of woman they need to alter self to appear as.

A good point. I once played a draconic bloodline sorcerer in a PF campaign, where as he advanced, more 'draconic' aspects appeared (funny skin texture, slit-pupiled eyes, etc). Because his Charisma was stupidly high, I described him as having a strange, almost alien beauty... which meant he went around wrapped up in dun-colored robes to avoid attention.

It was pretty funny watching him try to avoid the elven rogue who had a predilection for 'anything that moves' if you know what I mean.

Quote from: Brad;1123524In my experience, RPGs that have "better tools" for the social part end up being worse than ones that have nothing.

We had distinct experiences then. My group sessions with Vampire and Monsterhearts were a blast.

What about symbols of wealth / power?
Do players respond well to them? Use them to influence others?
React when those are part of the NPC description?

It certainly influences people in "Real Life".

Quote from: Greentongue;1123559What about symbols of wealth / power?
Do players respond well to them? Use them to influence others?
React when those are part of the NPC description?

It certainly influences people in "Real Life".

I can imagine circumstance bonuses for this. A part of that could be used with a Disguise skill to pretend to be a foreign noble or wealthy merchant.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1123538What does it mean to be a good looking gnome, halfling, or orc?  

How about for a creature that is difficult to identify the gender, like a lizardman (lizardperson?)?

In systems where there was an Appearance stat for non-human humanoids, the stat seemed to be baselined to general human norms. So most non-humans had a lower average and maximum than did humans, while a few like elves had higher average and maximum. Alternatively one could use an unspecific stat and apply a cross species penalty (or bonus) to avoid the situation of the ridiculously comely lizard person while allowing the very attractive elfin prince or princess.

QuoteDoes talking about carefully filing down your teeth to sharp points help or hurt you when dealing with groups outside of your immediate cultural heritage?

Depends on whether or not you are smiling.

I'd treat that as something where a cultural bonus or penalty should apply. The same issue of different species or cultural norms would also apply to a stat like Charisma where what is considered inspiring or persuasive will vary somewhat, but for some reason more players are willing to give that a pass than will do so for Appearance.

Quote from: Greentongue;1123559What about symbols of wealth / power?
Do players respond well to them? Use them to influence others?
React when those are part of the NPC description?

It certainly influences people in "Real Life".

Some players do when their PC is trying to influence NPCs. (Usually the same players who pay attention to NPCs and setting details.) Few do when NPCs (or other players) might want to influence their PC.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1123547A good point. I once played a draconic bloodline sorcerer in a PF campaign, where as he advanced, more 'draconic' aspects appeared (funny skin texture, slit-pupiled eyes, etc). Because his Charisma was stupidly high, I described him as having a strange, almost alien beauty... which meant he went around wrapped up in dun-colored robes to avoid attention.

That is why Robin wears a mask, to hide his beauty.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4188[/ATTACH]

I assume a character with high Seduction skill (mini six rpg) is likely good looking, or at least can present as such. A 5e D&D PC with high Persuasion likely is as well. I don't see a need for an Appearance or Comeliness stat, I think it works best as a derived attribute of charisma/charm/seduction/persuasion/diplomacy etc, and largely up to the player or GM.

Do you think the appearance of the players in "Real Life" makes it an avoided topic?

Doesn't make sense that something that impacts daily life is glossed over so much.
On the other hand, going to the "bathroom" isn't talked about much either.

Quote from: Greentongue;1123618Do you think the appearance of the players in "Real Life" makes it an avoided topic?

I don't see why it would be. We're not talking about how attractive the players are IRL.

Quote from: Greentongue;1123618Do you think the appearance of the players in "Real Life" makes it an avoided topic?

I'd say for some folks that can be a factor.

QuoteOn the other hand, going to the "bathroom" isn't talked about much either.

No it's never been a major focus in any campaign I've ever seen. But it does, at times, get talked about e.g. characters in a bar at some point have to take a piss and this may be used to facilitate a side conversation or ambush. In Star Wars I often have separate facilities for non-humans to emphasize the Imperial New Order anti-alien bias. And bathing or showering is occasionally talked about. To be fair, food and drink is much less of a focus in RPGs than it is for most people in the real world. I suspect there are quite a few players who couldn't tell you what foods each of their PC likes and dislikes or what their favorite desert is.

Quote from: Greentongue;1123618Do you think the appearance of the players in "Real Life" makes it an avoided topic? Doesn't make sense that something that impacts daily life is glossed over so much.  On the other hand, going to the "bathroom" isn't talked about much either.

Not all games emphasize the same thing. I think it is quite relevant, but it may also be more relevant in games in which all characters and most NPCs are assumed to be of the same species.

It is funny that you mention toilets in dungeons. A 3d content business I have was designing dungeon content and I brought that up. So a bathroom was created. If a dungeon builder is going to go to all the trouble of putting in funky fountains and various tricks and the like, they should also take into account some vents and poop drops. Keeps the otyugh on level 20 happy.