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I've seen room temperature IQ takes before, but this one just absolutely stood out to me on Twitter. A Vtuber by the name of Pipkin Pippa shared a tweet of a list of rules a DM had for disruptive players. Some of them were honestly common sense: don't drink shit next to the DM's stuff because if you damage the DM's books, then you really need to buy them a replacement copy. Others were of a more humorous and old school variety like 'insta-death traps'. That's honestly something that shouldn't be all that common (no need to turn every adventure into The Tomb of Horrors), but 5E D&D has shown its got the opposite problem: killing characters has become too infrequent because of 'Death Saves'. Part of that is, honestly, because of the asinine overinflation of powers by monsters to offset the ridiculous power curve expansion of even decently made characters (not to mention the kind of characters that are min/maxed).

So, naturally, some idiots are pissing and moaning because a DM dared suggest bringing back danger into the game. This, to me, is what is among the core problems with 5E as a game. What SHOULD have been done, to make a modular game, was break characters down into neat and tidy roles, where each type stood out and had a defined job within the party structure, instead of creating a free-for-all where every class damn near got abilities that mimicked other classes abilities (Second Wind, etc). And, of course, as time went on, the game became bloated with shitty broken concepts that just encouraged the kind of players that this type breeds. Cause if it takes hours to make D&D a character, you are a min-maxer and/or a theater retard who has to create a fucking 9-page backstory detailing everything your 'super-awesome-totally standout-hero' did, including shitting, before becoming an adventurer.

What's ironic about this exchange is I've been accused of playing 'sub-optimal' characters because I decided to build an old school-style Illusionist for a 5E campaign and refused to take any of the standard Invocation spells like Fireball, Lightning Bolt of the like because, for me, it broke the character concept. Yet I'm the min-maxer cause I say 'character creation should be relatively easy and straightforward, taking only a few minutes, for D&D'. Anything over 15 minutes and you should be looking to play something not D&D, honestly. 

I guess that once the Totally-Not-6e is out you'll see a schism between their player base, where some/many will choose to stay behind if they don't use WotC's websites and the ones that have to have the new shiny will go to the walled garden.

Of those who stay behind I think some will drift away with time to other games, either older D&D/retroclones/Pathfinder or different rulesets.

I imagine the blurring of the lines between classes is partly why you find so many guides: "How to build a [insert class here]".

Greetings!

Oh yeah, Insane Nerd Ramblings! Very true! 5E D&D certainly has some design dynamics that can be a problem. I think some of them are obvious, though I think others are someone concealed within the foliage of the game system, and hidden from a casual pass through. These deeper potential problems do not become apparent until much later in the campaign, say when the Player Characters start getting above 8th level.

Though to be fair--there are optional rules within the DMG that can serve to resist the Uber-superhero Player Character dynamic.

Unfortunately, however, the tide is against anyone that does not want to fully embrace the Player Charaacter Superhero dynamic. I admit, it can get frustrating and tiring "fighting" the system, the Player's expectations, the expectations of the game club at the local game store, and so on. And then, in the later, more recent years, we have the official WOTC sucking the Woke ass, and pumping the game full of Woke, Commie BS.

That is what ultimately led to my own decision to resist WOTC, and just play D&D in earlier forms, or different, new forms. That is one reason why I enjoy Shadowdark. I agree, 15 minutes for Character Creation. It shouldn't take longer than that. I hate the whole "Superhero" dynamic. I much prefer a grim, brutal environment where life is cheap and easily crushed, like a fucking cockroach. Gradually, Players can fight, and struggle, and FORGE themselves into a powerful hero. That's possibly down the line, though, if your character survives. Characters starting out at level 1 shouldn't be fucking superheroes, you know? Fuck that! They need to struggle and fight!

I also see connections philosophically between new trends in WOTC D&D and the whole "participation trophy" generation of gamers. Everyone thinks they are some unique and special superhero, and they are entitled to constant attention and glory, and should never really have to struggle. It seems that that generation would hate Old School dynamics. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK 

Sounds like when I first started playing D&D 3rd edition and was told I wasn't "doing it right" because I took sub-optimal feats (like quickdraw). Also, "Why did your bard spend so many skill points in languages? He can just buy a scroll of Comprehend Languages. IDIOT!" Turns out quickdraw allowed me to do stuff like pull out magic items as a free action, and that pissed off the DM quite a bit because it was an egregious error in the rules to allow such nonsense, even though he was a rules-lawyer. Whatever. And also all those languages made it impossible for his OP NPCs to have private conversations in front of the party. I am sure he hated that even more.

That said I never min-maxed 3rd and yet I always had the most powerful characters in the campaigns I played in by virtue of actually utilizing all the abilities listed. Sure you can spam fucking fireballs all day long, but charming the captain of the town guard is infinitely more effective than fighting hordes of soldiers. People are just stupid for the most part.

The individual you were replying to there isn't being clear about whether they mean the time it takes to make a character mechanically, or the time they pour into developing the character's bio and personality.

If they mean mechanically, then I actually kinda sympathize. I don't think it should take over an hour to make a 5e character, but if it's higher level or you're multi classing then maybe. At any rate there certainly are games that take that long. Putting all that work in, only to die to something stupid in the first session, probably would be quite annoying.

If this person means the time it takes to develop a character concept, then yeah it's some combination of a skill issue and a conceptual one. If you're an imaginative and/or well read person, and a moderately experienced role player, it shouldn't take more than a few minutes to come up with enough about a character to be able to roleplay them.

It's telling to me that this person automatically ascribes character death to a power-tripping DM. Firstly, it's yet more evidence for my pet theory that most of 5e player culture is driven by bad DMing. More importantly, it illustrates one of the less talked about issues with the "auteur DM" concept.

If the expectation is that the DM is manipulating in-game events to advance a story, then you actually have every right to be pissed off if your character gets killed, because now it's not an accident of the dice, or a consequence of your actions. It's something the DM actively did to you.

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 27, 2024, 06:56:35 PMThe individual you were replying to there isn't being clear about whether they mean the time it takes to make a character mechanically, or the time they pour into developing the character's bio and personality.

If they mean mechanically, then I actually kinda sympathize. I don't think it should take over an hour to make a 5e character, but if it's higher level or you're multi classing then maybe. At any rate there certainly are games that take that long. Putting all that work in, only to die to something stupid in the first session, probably would be quite annoying.

If this person means the time it takes to develop a character concept, then yeah it's some combination of a skill issue and a conceptual one. If you're an imaginative and/or well read person, and a moderately experienced role player, it shouldn't take more than a few minutes to come up with enough about a character to be able to roleplay them.

It's telling to me that this person automatically ascribes character death to a power-tripping DM. Firstly, it's yet more evidence for my pet theory that most of 5e player culture is driven by bad DMing. More importantly, it illustrates one of the less talked about issues with the "auteur DM" concept.

If the expectation is that the DM is manipulating in-game events to advance a story, then you actually have every right to be pissed off if your character gets killed, because now it's not an accident of the dice, or a consequence of your actions. It's something the DM actively did to you.

Yeah.  It's one thing if the DM creates a scenario, gives you no way out, and the outcome of the scenario can only be certain death.  But usually even bad DMs don't do that.  What makes them bad DMs is that they think they are signaling the seriousness of the situation and your possible options, when they really aren't (or at least not well).  Of course, some of it is probably also terrible players, too.

Honestly, responsibility has become such a forgotten concept, it's no surprise that most players have no idea that their actions have consequences, especially those that lead to a character's death.  Mommy/Daddy/Government has always been there to bail me out before... why aren't you now?

OD&D is faster than Tunnels and Trolls where you have to dig around to find a weapon you can use.

1st edition and second took about an hour if you copied out all your attribute bonuses, totalled your encumbrance, and worked out stuff like weapon speeds and weapon verses armour tables.

3rd edition and 5th edition both suffer from the increasing complexity of higher level characters and a tenth level character can take an hour but a first level character should take less than 15 minutes unless the player decides to preplan their next ten levels at first level in which case you're back to an hour.

4th edition's about 30 minutes for any character.

There's a minimum amount of time for any game--assuming that the player has a decent idea of what kind of character they want to play and some moderate understanding of the game system.  For a 1st level Basic D&D character, the minimum is about 5 minutes given those qualifiers.  However, for every person that can make that character in 5 minutes, there's another that will take 20+, because of inability to make up his mind about anything.

Same things happens with Fantasy Hero, except the minimum is about 40 minutes (20 for an expert), and the the guy with analysis paralysis won't ever really finish.  Eventually, the game will start, and he will have to play whatever he has.

Most players that have done nothing but D&D 3E, 4E, or 5E have to be broken of a worry habit when making characters in other systems.  The whole "some parts of the character build are a trap" thing they think is inherent in RPGs.  In fairness, a lot of video game RPGs lately also reinforce that thought.

This is why I really disliked 3.5 D&D and think it was the worst edition, it infected mainstream D&D with this munchkin power build thinking about building characters rather than playing games kind of mentality.

4th edition was garbage but you could safely say it wasn't D&D and move on.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 27, 2024, 10:42:48 PMThere's a minimum amount of time for any game--assuming that the player has a decent idea of what kind of character they want to play and some moderate understanding of the game system.  For a 1st level Basic D&D character, the minimum is about 5 minutes given those qualifiers.  However, for every person that can make that character in 5 minutes, there's another that will take 20+, because of inability to make up his mind about anything.

Same things happens with Fantasy Hero, except the minimum is about 40 minutes (20 for an expert), and the the guy with analysis paralysis won't ever really finish.  Eventually, the game will start, and he will have to play whatever he has.

Most players that have done nothing but D&D 3E, 4E, or 5E have to be broken of a worry habit when making characters in other systems.  The whole "some parts of the character build are a trap" thing they think is inherent in RPGs.  In fairness, a lot of video game RPGs lately also reinforce that thought.

Greetings!

Hello, Steven! I hope you are doing good today! You know, I was thinking about this commentary you made here. I played 3E, for years, and lived the system. It certainly had a few problems, most of which were kind of buried deeper within the system dynamic before they became noticeable. However, one of them that was somewhat more readily visible--kind of--was precisely what you point out here--"Some parts of the Charaacter Build are a trap!" Yeah, like how some feats, yechnically and rules-wise, provided Character A with a large boost in ability--and yet, in the same section, say particularly with numerous Feats, there may have been one or several Feats that, by their name, flavour text, and presented ability modifier, you would think, "Well, these here are awesome! These abilities perfectly reflect the background or training of my Character!" NOPE. Well, that all may very well be true, but *mechanically* it can be shown that such selections are sub-par when compared to the juice-flavoured Gummy bear that the Barbarian Throgg chose to take at 4th level. You could have selected the same uber-powerful Gummy Bear of Barbarian Might, but NO. You chose Skilled Outdoorsman instead. (Which, when you wade through the awesome sounding text description, the actual benefit is only a +2 Bonus to Fur Skinning while working with such materials at or around the hour of sunrise.

Stupid, lame stuff like that. But you know, I have always favoured theme, the Campaign, and particularly my Character and his particular background, talents, and experiences above whatever considerations of being a Min-Maxing "Powergamer". We used to also call such people "Munchkins!"

I think the Campaign, the Campaign Theme, and being faithful to your individual Character are far more important and worthwhile than the efforts at powergaming.

It is frustrating to see the official game company actually promote and reward powergaming, while seemingly carefully setting up numerous *traps* within the Character Build, Spell Selection, Feats, and so on. I remember the first time I caught wind of this problem, when a Player was discussing options and selections with me, and carefully going through the details, this disparity popped out at me. Then, I noticed these annoying dynamics for several examples.

AAARRRGGHHHH!!!! Right? *Laughing*

But you know what? I actually institute actual rewards within the game with Characters that make extended efforts at creating dynamic, faithful Characters, while not being afraid to ignore the powergaming elements. I also think that if one embraces the whole powergaming stuffed animal, then over time, yeah, every character of whatever class with that is going to look and perform the same, and then that brings in boredom and crying. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on May 27, 2024, 05:10:06 PMCharacters starting out at level 1 shouldn't be fucking superheroes, you know?

Several 5e players have told me that they start characters at third level because first-level characters are "too weak."

Third level is where the odds of a 5e character actually dying start to drop like a rock.  It's also the level where all of the classes have gotten their subclasses which is a big power boost.

Making a 5e character doesn't take hours.  Who the hell has to spend hours making a 5 character?  What are they even doing for that long? 

Quote from: Rhymer88 on May 28, 2024, 06:28:43 AM

Quote from: SHARK on May 27, 2024, 05:10:06 PMCharacters starting out at level 1 shouldn't be fucking superheroes, you know?

Several 5e players have told me that they start characters at third level because first-level characters are "too weak."

As far as I know, that's been common in every edition. Supposedly, even Gary Gygax started his players at level 3.

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 28, 2024, 07:40:37 AMMaking a 5e character doesn't take hours.  Who the hell has to spend hours making a 5 character?  What are they even doing for that long?

They likely are crafting the 'ultimate backstory', so a 2000 word essay on how awesome their character is and whatnot.

Quote from: SHARK on May 28, 2024, 03:13:10 AMBut you know what? I actually institute actual rewards within the game with Characters that make extended efforts at creating dynamic, faithful Characters, while not being afraid to ignore the powergaming elements. I also think that if one embraces the whole powergaming stuffed animal, then over time, yeah, every character of whatever class with that is going to look and perform the same, and then that brings in boredom and crying. *Laughing*

I don't disagree on your outcome and approach here at all.  That's the way I approached 3E, for example.  However, I think it's horrible game design.  I'd argue this way:

- The only way to get perfect balance is to make everything symmetric (e.g. chess, or if carried even further, checkers).

- RPGs, as well as most games that are models of something instead of solely focused on competitive games, need asymmetry, because models of real things, however constituted, are about messy things. That means a certain degree of imbalance is baked into the requirements.  RPGs in particular need the kind of asymmetry that is difficult if not impossible to test fully.

- RPGs have the additional requirement that even a relatively narrow one will have groups with different priorities on exactly how they want the game to go, which means that X's power-gaming element is balanced in Y's game and maybe even irrelevant in Z's game.

- Therefore, since an interesting, well-designed RPG is an asymmetric model, and already will naturally produce imbalance out of that, it's really stupid to put in traps on purpose.  You'll get plenty of traps just fine trying your best just to make a good game.

Games where you play a character that grows slowly over time should not make choices you made at level 1 cripple you at level 5 or 10 or 15.  Or at least should call them out as things to avoid until you know what you are doing. Of course there will be stuff around the edges.  The GM will need to address it somehow.  I made a point in 3E and 5E of seeing to it that players that made interesting characters in the world instead of "builds" got more flavorful magic items targeted to them.  It tended to even out the power balance, making power-gaming unrewarding, and was something those players appreciated in its own right. 

The other side of this is that games with traps are just plain annoying to many enjoyable/fun players and a magnet to players you'd like to discourage.  I'm not talking about plain stupid things, where the player ought to know something wouldn't work merely with the labels, never mind the mechanics.  No, if you try to play a pacifistic, gullible wizard with poor health in our heavy adventure game, you are probably going to be disappointed, and the GM isn't willing to bail out that character in this game.  (I've actually had to tell a player "No" on that kind of character, and after trying to explain it for 10 minutes, patiently, ended with, "The character isn't going to work the way you expect, and I don't want to deal with the hassle of trying to make it work." :)

For me, for the copper coin it's not worth, nothing bugs me more than lengthy character creation time in a game I don't know. Hand me a pregen and we'll call it a day.

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 28, 2024, 07:47:56 AM

Quote from: Rhymer88 on May 28, 2024, 06:28:43 AM

Quote from: SHARK on May 27, 2024, 05:10:06 PMCharacters starting out at level 1 shouldn't be fucking superheroes, you know?

Several 5e players have told me that they start characters at third level because first-level characters are "too weak."

As far as I know, that's been common in every edition. Supposedly, even Gary Gygax started his players at level 3.

   And if I correctly recall the discussion at 5E's launch, this was intended to be common for more experienced players--Levels 1 and 2 were meant as 'training levels' for players new to the system, and to go by very quickly.

We started our 5E campaigns back in 2014 at first level. We were new to the system and it took players a while to create characters because they were reading through the classes for the first time. These days we start at 3rd level and can get characters cranked out pretty quick. Character creation time depends on how well you know the system. Maybe it takes longer if someone using the slow ass D&D Beyond interface? Using a blank character sheet and pencil I can have one ready to go real fast.

Character creation generally takes more time the more options available.  Especially if you have a player who has to read every option and list it and weigh it before deciding.  There's always that one guy.  Though that's only a system issue in the sense that the more stuff there is in the game the more time he'll take.

I have only played a total of 1 5e game and that was years ago, so can't way in on how long it does/could take

Quote from: Jason Coplen on May 28, 2024, 08:42:13 AMFor me, for the copper coin it's not worth, nothing bugs me more than lengthy character creation time in a game I don't know. Hand me a pregen and we'll call it a day.

& that is why for my girls' face to face game, every system we have played over the last 4+ years, I've started them with a group of pregens to chose from and ran them through an adventure or 2. Then we have a 'session 0' for them to make their own character and start the real campaign.

Quote from: David Johansen on May 28, 2024, 10:20:02 AMCharacter creation generally takes more time the more options available.  Especially if you have a player who has to read every option and list it and weigh it before deciding.  There's always that one guy.  Though that's only a system issue in the sense that the more stuff there is in the game the more time he'll take.

After a home brew Castle & Crusade adventure arc, my girls' group played Call of Cthulhu/ Delta Green, and then Traveller. Unfortunately, my older daughter and her best friend that games with us are both "those guys". That, plus all the choices in CoC/DG and then even worse for Traveller, made the session 0 take WAY TO LONG. It was fun to watch them in Traveller go through the life path process and grow their character, but each choice was 'what is the right/best choice ? Should I stay in this career, should I change careers, if so then what career ....

Now that said. There is no way a D&D based character should take that long to make. Of course the great back story that has to go with the character can/should take weeks, ;-)

Quote from: Lurker on May 28, 2024, 12:23:07 PMI have only played a total of 1 5e game and that was years ago, so can't way in on how long it does/could take

Quote from: Jason Coplen on May 28, 2024, 08:42:13 AMFor me, for the copper coin it's not worth, nothing bugs me more than lengthy character creation time in a game I don't know. Hand me a pregen and we'll call it a day.

& that is why for my girls' face to face game, every system we have played over the last 4+ years, I've started them with a group of pregens to chose from and ran them through an adventure or 2. Then we have a 'session 0' for them to make their own character and start the real campaign.

Quote from: David Johansen on May 28, 2024, 10:20:02 AMCharacter creation generally takes more time the more options available.  Especially if you have a player who has to read every option and list it and weigh it before deciding.  There's always that one guy.  Though that's only a system issue in the sense that the more stuff there is in the game the more time he'll take.

That's a good idea. I have never even considered it before. Thanks!

I screwed up quoting. The quote from Dave shouldn't be there.

I hope people who spend an hour just creating a character's backstory get wasted in 5 minutes of game play.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on May 28, 2024, 06:49:21 PMI hope people who spend an hour just creating a character's backstory get wasted in 5 minutes of game play.

Now that is just hurtful .... it cuts me to my soul ;-)

I do tend to make in-depth backstories, but the campaigns I play in fit it. Plus, I'm lucky that the DMs that run them tend to let me create the micro story for my background (in their proscribed framework of setting etc) With that, my backstories always give the DM at least 4-6 (or more) hooks for future adventures, and they flesh out a location for the DM (give the DM 3 or 4 family names and general history of important families in a city and their political machinations in the city). It also give exactly why my character has taken up the life of the adventurer and what my goals are.

One thing it NEVER does is make my lowly 1 level character sound like a 8th or 9th level hero. That has always annoyed me.

Of course, that is like I said for a campaign that it fits. If the game is going to be straight "go kill the monster, loot the bodies, clear the crypt" and has minimal to no background political etc elements, then by all means I'll have a character finished minutes after the last dice rolls.

I think "backstory" has a lot to do with the power of the character. 1st level D&D characters' backstory should be nothing more than, "Some goblins raided my farm and killed my family so I am going to loot some old ruins and gain power so I can wipe them out." If it's a 20th level paladin, then obviously a page or two of information is probably okay, and helpful for the DM. If you run Peter Parker a few days after getting bitten by a radioactive spider, you're doing a massive fucking disservice to the character by not allowing what happens to play out in real-time instead of just writing it down. Spider-Man's development into a hero is nothing to gloss over with exposition; that needs to done at the table. If you're playing Batman after he becomes friends with Commission Gordon, then again, you can have a page or two of info.

I think the issue here is most players (i.e. modern non-roleplaying junior thespian wannabes) think they can't adequately play a PC unless they have their entire life mapped out. Where's the fun in that? What if Uncle Ben had never been killed? Would Spider-Man even exist? Would he instead be a petty criminal?

Quote from: Jason Coplen on May 28, 2024, 03:54:27 PMI screwed up quoting. The quote from Dave shouldn't be there.

I was never here...(waves hand)...you have never seen me...

Quote from: Brad on May 28, 2024, 09:22:44 PM1st level D&D characters' backstory should be nothing more than, "Some goblins raided my farm and killed my family so I am going to loot some old ruins and gain power so I can wipe them out." If it's a 20th level paladin, then obviously a page or two of information is probably okay, and helpful for the DM.

Exactly. I had to make a 6th lvl Illusionist for a 5E game and this was what I came up with in less than 10 minutes of typing:

QuoteBorn the third child of a merchant in the Foreign Quarter of The Free City of Greyhawk, Ahnwen proved a quick wit and a creative mind. His aptitude for entertaining others was evident from an early age. He began his career as a Street Magician by the age of 10. As he grew, he began to yearn for real magic and soon found himself apprenticed to a Master Illusionist at the age of 20. Years of intense study, punctuated by travel, entertaining crowds and occasional adventures with his master followed before Ahnwen's teacher declared him ready. 

Setting out from Greyhawk with not but the clothes on his back, an entertainer's pack, a lute and his spellbook, Ahnwen traveled the length and breadth of The Wild Coast and back, into the Grand Duchy of Urnst before coming back to Greyhawk. He had with him a modest amount of treasure that he had garnered along the way. Two years had passed and he was ready to settle down for a period of time. While living the more quiet and less adventurous life for several months, entertaining crowds and performing at various Inns like The Green Dragon, he was contacted by his old mentor about a new adventure to recover an artifact for him from Castle Greyhawk. While it took a little bit of convincing, he eventually agreed to go.   

Unfortunately, the mission turned into a nightmare. Most of the adventuring party he was with were killed and he was separated from the few survivors when a trap door and slide dropped him to an unexplored level far below. Soon he was running for his life as monsters pursued him. It was either divine intervention or random luck that he came across the magickal gateway at one dead end hallway. Without looking back, he stepped through the misty portal before emerging again into what he thought was the world above, but was in fact the outskirts of The City of Waterdeep upon Toril.

This basically covers his adventures from Level 0 to Level 6. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.

Quote from: David Johansen on May 28, 2024, 10:20:00 PM

Quote from: Jason Coplen on May 28, 2024, 03:54:27 PMI screwed up quoting. The quote from Dave shouldn't be there.

I was never here...(waves hand)...you have never seen me...

(stares blankly totally under your force power) Daves' not here... ;)

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on May 29, 2024, 02:51:54 AM

Quote from: Brad on May 28, 2024, 09:22:44 PM1st level D&D characters' backstory should be nothing more than, "Some goblins raided my farm and killed my family so I am going to loot some old ruins and gain power so I can wipe them out." If it's a 20th level paladin, then obviously a page or two of information is probably okay, and helpful for the DM.

Exactly. I had to make a 6th lvl Illusionist for a 5E game and this was what I came up with in less than 10 minutes of typing:

QuoteBorn the third child of a merchant in the Foreign Quarter of The Free City of Greyhawk, Ahnwen proved a quick wit and a creative mind. His aptitude for entertaining others was evident from an early age. He began his career as a Street Magician by the age of 10. As he grew, he began to yearn for real magic and soon found himself apprenticed to a Master Illusionist at the age of 20. Years of intense study, punctuated by travel, entertaining crowds and occasional adventures with his master followed before Ahnwen's teacher declared him ready. 

Setting out from Greyhawk with not but the clothes on his back, an entertainer's pack, a lute and his spellbook, Ahnwen traveled the length and breadth of The Wild Coast and back, into the Grand Duchy of Urnst before coming back to Greyhawk. He had with him a modest amount of treasure that he had garnered along the way. Two years had passed and he was ready to settle down for a period of time. While living the more quiet and less adventurous life for several months, entertaining crowds and performing at various Inns like The Green Dragon, he was contacted by his old mentor about a new adventure to recover an artifact for him from Castle Greyhawk. While it took a little bit of convincing, he eventually agreed to go.   

Unfortunately, the mission turned into a nightmare. Most of the adventuring party he was with were killed and he was separated from the few survivors when a trap door and slide dropped him to an unexplored level far below. Soon he was running for his life as monsters pursued him. It was either divine intervention or random luck that he came across the magickal gateway at one dead end hallway. Without looking back, he stepped through the misty portal before emerging again into what he thought was the world above, but was in fact the outskirts of The City of Waterdeep upon Toril.

This basically covers his adventures from Level 0 to Level 6. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.

I'm also pretty good at coming up with character backgrounds on the fly, but then, I also am very quick at making characters mechanically. I suspect we're both regularly GMs.

In my experience, though, a lot of players need more time to make choices. It's not about typing speed or that they have no imagination, but they need a lot of time to decide on what they want.

Even with pregenerated characters, deciding on who plays what character can take time. In the Savage Worlds game I ran at KublaCon this past weekend, I had 12 pregenerated characters for 6 players, and it took more than fifteen minutes for the players to go over who all the characters were and which one they wanted.

When it is wide-open choices like backstory, then some people can take a longer time. And especially if this is a character they'll be playing for a long campaign, I can understand that. It rarely happens now, but I can remember hours of going through books and considering options for a new campaign character - back when we did character creation out-of-session.

Quote from: jhkim on May 29, 2024, 02:21:25 PM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on May 29, 2024, 02:51:54 AM

Quote from: Brad on May 28, 2024, 09:22:44 PM1st level D&D characters' backstory should be nothing more than, "Some goblins raided my farm and killed my family so I am going to loot some old ruins and gain power so I can wipe them out." If it's a 20th level paladin, then obviously a page or two of information is probably okay, and helpful for the DM.

Exactly. I had to make a 6th lvl Illusionist for a 5E game and this was what I came up with in less than 10 minutes of typing:

QuoteBorn the third child of a merchant in the Foreign Quarter of The Free City of Greyhawk, Ahnwen proved a quick wit and a creative mind. His aptitude for entertaining others was evident from an early age. He began his career as a Street Magician by the age of 10. As he grew, he began to yearn for real magic and soon found himself apprenticed to a Master Illusionist at the age of 20. Years of intense study, punctuated by travel, entertaining crowds and occasional adventures with his master followed before Ahnwen's teacher declared him ready. 

Setting out from Greyhawk with not but the clothes on his back, an entertainer's pack, a lute and his spellbook, Ahnwen traveled the length and breadth of The Wild Coast and back, into the Grand Duchy of Urnst before coming back to Greyhawk. He had with him a modest amount of treasure that he had garnered along the way. Two years had passed and he was ready to settle down for a period of time. While living the more quiet and less adventurous life for several months, entertaining crowds and performing at various Inns like The Green Dragon, he was contacted by his old mentor about a new adventure to recover an artifact for him from Castle Greyhawk. While it took a little bit of convincing, he eventually agreed to go.   

Unfortunately, the mission turned into a nightmare. Most of the adventuring party he was with were killed and he was separated from the few survivors when a trap door and slide dropped him to an unexplored level far below. Soon he was running for his life as monsters pursued him. It was either divine intervention or random luck that he came across the magickal gateway at one dead end hallway. Without looking back, he stepped through the misty portal before emerging again into what he thought was the world above, but was in fact the outskirts of The City of Waterdeep upon Toril.

This basically covers his adventures from Level 0 to Level 6. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.

I'm also pretty good at coming up with character backgrounds on the fly, but then, I also am very quick at making characters mechanically. I suspect we're both regularly GMs.

In my experience, though, a lot of players need more time to make choices. It's not about typing speed or that they have no imagination, but they need a lot of time to decide on what they want.

Even with pregenerated characters, deciding on who plays what character can take time. In the Savage Worlds game I ran at KublaCon this past weekend, I had 12 pregenerated characters for 6 players, and it took more than fifteen minutes for the players to go over who all the characters were and which one they wanted.

When it is wide-open choices like backstory, then some people can take a longer time. And especially if this is a character they'll be playing for a long campaign, I can understand that. It rarely happens now, but I can remember hours of going through books and considering options for a new campaign character - back when we did character creation out-of-session.

That is the camp I fall into for longer back stories. If it is like I said just a simple adventure to adventure then no need for something in depth. But if the campaign is going to have important social and political elements, I spend more time. Even then, most of it is looking into historical and literary examples to use as reference. If the setting , or location my character is from, is based on Venice Italy, then I brush up on medieval Venice, read through highlights of some Shakespear Othello, look at important historical Venetians for names etc. Then I write up my family's info history, who they are aligned with and who they have a vendetta with where they fit in the city's framework, and give a list of possibly important key NPC's names. That way it is A LOT easier for the DM to pull things into the campaign without having to do a ton of research on their own (and we all know how much time and effort it takes to run a campaign)

Now and like I said before it NEVER includes my character's historic heroic acts. At first level there should be no heroic act already accomplished. There will be a reason or 2 for the character to become an adventurer. Possibly having dueled a rival family's son and injuring him, or possibly accidently insulting a politically powerful person and bringing their wrath down on the character or his family etc. Regardless it is no great "I was the hero of this earth shattering battle" but it is a reason for the character to give up the life of a normal person and join the dangerous life of being an adventurer

 

Quote from: Brad on May 28, 2024, 09:22:44 PMI think "backstory" has a lot to do with the power of the character. 1st level D&D characters' backstory should be nothing more than, "Some goblins raided my farm and killed my family so I am going to loot some old ruins and gain power so I can wipe them out." If it's a 20th level paladin, then obviously a page or two of information is probably okay, and helpful for the DM. If you run Peter Parker a few days after getting bitten by a radioactive spider, you're doing a massive fucking disservice to the character by not allowing what happens to play out in real-time instead of just writing it down. Spider-Man's development into a hero is nothing to gloss over with exposition; that needs to done at the table. If you're playing Batman after he becomes friends with Commission Gordon, then again, you can have a page or two of info.

I think the issue here is most players (i.e. modern non-roleplaying junior thespian wannabes) think they can't adequately play a PC unless they have their entire life mapped out. Where's the fun in that? What if Uncle Ben had never been killed? Would Spider-Man even exist? Would he instead be a petty criminal?

On the surface, we may be on opposite sides of this, but I completely agree with you on that. I might give a good background / family history, but it never is a map to the future. The background is a starting point, but "the future is wide open" (and governed by choices and dice rolls)

I have even had a DM take someone from my history that I assumed would be friend and over time make them a key enemy NPC. It made me hate that NPC even more than if it would have been a standard generic bad guy NPC. I would have adventured against them as part of the campaign if they were generic evil NPC, but since they betrayed me from my history, I had a vendetta against them and HAD to defeat and humiliate them .

Quote from: jhkim on May 29, 2024, 02:21:25 PMI'm also pretty good at coming up with character backgrounds on the fly, but then, I also am very quick at making characters mechanically. I suspect we're both regularly GMs.

In my experience, though, a lot of players need more time to make choices. It's not about typing speed or that they have no imagination, but they need a lot of time to decide on what they want.

Even with pregenerated characters, deciding on who plays what character can take time. In the Savage Worlds game I ran at KublaCon this past weekend, I had 12 pregenerated characters for 6 players, and it took more than fifteen minutes for the players to go over who all the characters were and which one they wanted.

When it is wide-open choices like backstory, then some people can take a longer time. And especially if this is a character they'll be playing for a long campaign, I can understand that. It rarely happens now, but I can remember hours of going through books and considering options for a new campaign character - back when we did character creation out-of-session.

Several years ago, some family friends wanted to try their hand at D&D, and after I ran them through several sessions of B4 with Labyrinth Lord, one wanted to try DMing 5e. Knowing my friend, I got ready for the long haul because even if he sucked, he would work at it until he got good (long story short, he was fine if a bit railroady).

After a while of thinking about a concept and putzing around with the online character builder, I came up with the idea of trying to build (keyword here) a monk who was a follower of Wee Jas and chose an off-the-wall feat to give him some versatility. Eventually I made two different and complete characters. The first was a Monk with the Hermetic Order background and Magic Initiate feat. He had Fire Bolt, Minor Illusion, and Witch Bolt as his spells, and I thought I would be able to use the Minor Illusion to great effect. I was happy with this but wanted to see what else I could do, so I made another character.

This time I made a Monk with the Acolyte background and Magic Initiate feat. He had Sacred Flame, Thaumaturgy, and Inflict Wounds as his spells. After reading the description for Thaumaturgy I KNEW I could use this to very great effect.

Now both characters were pretty competent (at least interesting to me) in melee but also had some magical ju-ju that I could use to roll over this new DM. Both also had at least one ranged attack. But that was the problem that I had. Both characters matched my concept but did it in very different ways.

The Magic-User base would be vicious with his ranged attacks (Firebolt, cantrip, 1d10 fire damage; and Witchbolt, 1st-level, 1d12 lightning damage per round for up to a minute), but I was worried about how the new DM would deal with all the illusions I'd be dropping.

The Divine base would be just as vicious with a generally auto-kill melee attack (Inflict Wounds, 1st-level, 3d10 necrotic damage) and a decent ranged attack (Sacred Flame, cantrip, 1d8 radiant damage), but I figured the Thaumaturgy cantrip would actually do stuff which I could argue couldn't be disbelieved or anything.

So not counting the hours it took me pouring over the PH looking at all the options and spells I could take, I sat for days--literally days--trying to figure out which character I wanted to play. Even in my days of 3e, I never spent that much time building a concept. But here I had so many options that seemed viable that I was paralyzed. I eventually went with the Divine base because of the reality of the Thaumaturgy spell.

So at session 1, Bruce Leeroy Jenkins was a Follower of Wee Jas who during his arcane studies learned how to harness the power of the Negative Material Plane (Inflict Wounds), the Positive Material Plane (Sacred Flame), and bend the fabric of reality to his will (Thaumaturgy). During his temple training, he learned how to harness his inner Ki strength to become one of the most devastating whirlwinds in the area. He spent his time learning how to harness the power of the planes to augment his inner powers. He also spent his down time composing Haiku and drawing to create magnificent Haiga.

By the time my wife and I bowed out--Covid had hit and playing on Zoom was awful--Leeroy had attained 5th-level and was just fucking vicious. He always had an answer and legit combat option. He never outshined anyone in damage, but he controlled the battlefield. Nothing like bringing down some Radiance, charging in and stunning, and then punching the big bad for Necrotic damage. And then then a choice of 3 attacks or an attack and Disengage/Dash/Push/non-action?! There was no answer for Bruce Leeroy in combat.

But I wasn't a jerk player with this character. The campaign was plenty challenging mentally for the we the players, but combat was exciting for me. Just took hours into days to create a character that I could have fun and excel with.

It doesn't matter to me how much time someone wants to take futzing with a character as long as they don't hold up the start of the game or waste other people's time with it.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 28, 2024, 08:47:22 AMAnd if I correctly recall the discussion at 5E's launch, this was intended to be common for more experienced players--Levels 1 and 2 were meant as 'training levels' for players new to the system, and to go by very quickly.

Yeah. 5e basically "starts" at 3rd level. It's one of 5e's design issues. The game doesn't do well for high level play(not a problem limited to 5e) and then they killed the starter levels. So you have this very narrow band of the game, levels 3-7 or so where the game actually functions well.

Quote from: Dracones on May 30, 2024, 09:42:50 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 28, 2024, 08:47:22 AMAnd if I correctly recall the discussion at 5E's launch, this was intended to be common for more experienced players--Levels 1 and 2 were meant as 'training levels' for players new to the system, and to go by very quickly.

Yeah. 5e basically "starts" at 3rd level. It's one of 5e's design issues. The game doesn't do well for high level play(not a problem limited to 5e) and then they killed the starter levels. So you have this very narrow band of the game, levels 3-7 or so where the game actually functions well.

That was close to my experience with 5e too. We blazed through levels 1-2 with barely a pause. I then enjoyed running the game from levels 3-9, but by 10-11 it was nowhere near as much fun, and we stopped just after hitting level 12.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 30, 2024, 03:05:44 PM

Quote from: Dracones on May 30, 2024, 09:42:50 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 28, 2024, 08:47:22 AMAnd if I correctly recall the discussion at 5E's launch, this was intended to be common for more experienced players--Levels 1 and 2 were meant as 'training levels' for players new to the system, and to go by very quickly.

Yeah. 5e basically "starts" at 3rd level. It's one of 5e's design issues. The game doesn't do well for high level play(not a problem limited to 5e) and then they killed the starter levels. So you have this very narrow band of the game, levels 3-7 or so where the game actually functions well.

That was close to my experience with 5e too. We blazed through levels 1-2 with barely a pause. I then enjoyed running the game from levels 3-9, but by 10-11 it was nowhere near as much fun, and we stopped just after hitting level 12.

That was also my experience. I recently ended my 5E campaign at level 9.

On the other hand, it was similar for me with AD&D decades ago. Characters felt unwieldy to me at the upper levels. There were less special abilities in the AD&D rules, but by then each character would have a dozen or more magic items - and spellcasters were juggling dozens of spells. One of the things I liked about 5E was toning down the extent of magic items.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 04:03:17 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 30, 2024, 03:05:44 PM

Quote from: Dracones on May 30, 2024, 09:42:50 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 28, 2024, 08:47:22 AMAnd if I correctly recall the discussion at 5E's launch, this was intended to be common for more experienced players--Levels 1 and 2 were meant as 'training levels' for players new to the system, and to go by very quickly.

Yeah. 5e basically "starts" at 3rd level. It's one of 5e's design issues. The game doesn't do well for high level play(not a problem limited to 5e) and then they killed the starter levels. So you have this very narrow band of the game, levels 3-7 or so where the game actually functions well.

That was close to my experience with 5e too. We blazed through levels 1-2 with barely a pause. I then enjoyed running the game from levels 3-9, but by 10-11 it was nowhere near as much fun, and we stopped just after hitting level 12.

That was also my experience. I recently ended my 5E campaign at level 9.

On the other hand, it was similar for me with AD&D decades ago. Characters felt unwieldy to me at the upper levels. There were less special abilities in the AD&D rules, but by then each character would have a dozen or more magic items - and spellcasters were juggling dozens of spells. One of the things I liked about 5E was toning down the extent of magic items.

Funny, I've got 3+ years playing AD&D2e disregarding stuff like perpetual light/darkness stones (which we can easily craft) we have about 3 magical items each.

Which makes me think your experience with it is more of a GM problem than a game problem. Meaning the GM was handing out way too much magic items to the players. Something a GM can also do in 5e.

As for the spells, not having played 5e but from what I've seen casters will have about the same number of spells to "juggle".

But in AD&D2e there's no power creep by way of feats and other shit that 5e has.

Don't get me wrong I dislike the magic system of D&D in general, it makes no sense to me that you have to re-memorize a spell, it should work more like Harry Potter, once you know the spell you know it and can spam it, which creates a different problem for "balance" reasons. There have been different attempts at solving this, magic points, random roll to se if you cast successfully, etc.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 04:40:29 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 04:03:17 PMThat was also my experience. I recently ended my 5E campaign at level 9.

On the other hand, it was similar for me with AD&D decades ago. Characters felt unwieldy to me at the upper levels. There were less special abilities in the AD&D rules, but by then each character would have a dozen or more magic items - and spellcasters were juggling dozens of spells. One of the things I liked about 5E was toning down the extent of magic items.

Funny, I've got 3+ years playing AD&D2e disregarding stuff like perpetual light/darkness stones (which we can easily craft) we have about 3 magical items each.

Which makes me think your experience with it is more of a GM problem than a game problem. Meaning the GM was handing out way too much magic items to the players. Something a GM can also do in 5e.

It's possible in 5E, which doesn't specify treasure rewards, but in AD&D1, the treasure that you give to players is part of the rules. Each monster has a treasure type with an associated chance of magic items. That, and the official AD&D modules have a similar frequency of magic items to the treasure rules.

Obviously, the DM could ignore the rules and give out fewer magic items, but they could change other rules, too.

Played by the book AD&D 1E requires saving throws for magic items in all kinds of scenarios.  There's a lot of magic going in, but there's a lot going out, too.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 30, 2024, 05:31:23 PMPlayed by the book AD&D 1E requires saving throws for magic items in all kinds of scenarios.  There's a lot of magic going in, but there's a lot going out, too.

jhkim never actually played AD&D BtB. Not that hardly any of us did, but he assuredly did not. Claiming it's "in the rules" for tons of magic items then ignoring other parts of the rules that mitigate this potential problem is typical for the anti-AD&D arguments. But as already stated, this is mostly a DM problem anyway. Gygax has a whole section in the DMG that directly addresses this issue, which I am sure a lot of young players (like myself) glossed over and then had the PCs flying around in X-wing fighters. Such is life.

Quote from: Brad on May 30, 2024, 05:36:37 PMjhkim never actually played AD&D BtB. Not that hardly any of us did, but he assuredly did not. Claiming it's "in the rules" for tons of magic items then ignoring other parts of the rules that mitigate this potential problem is typical for the anti-AD&D arguments. But as already stated, this is mostly a DM problem anyway. Gygax has a whole section in the DMG that directly addresses this issue, which I am sure a lot of young players (like myself) glossed over and then had the PCs flying around in X-wing fighters. Such is life.

I'm not claiming that I played AD&D entirely by the book. Like almost everyone else, I ignored weapon-vs-armor and the grappling rules and psionics and plenty of other stuff.

But yes, I did pay attention to treasure types and the intended frequency of magic items. I remember doing some statistics on the different treasure types back in middle school.

The point being that the frequency of magic items isn't a pure DM issue unrelated to the rules.

Quote from: Brad on May 30, 2024, 05:36:37 PMjhkim never actually played AD&D BtB. Not that hardly any of us did, but he assuredly did not. Claiming it's "in the rules" for tons of magic items then ignoring other parts of the rules that mitigate this potential problem is typical for the anti-AD&D arguments. But as already stated, this is mostly a DM problem anyway. Gygax has a whole section in the DMG that directly addresses this issue, which I am sure a lot of young players (like myself) glossed over and then had the PCs flying around in X-wing fighters. Such is life.

I think part of the problem was that (at least in my experience) Monty Haul games weren't really a thing most times back in the day. I'm not saying magic items were necessarily hard to come by, but you usually didn't have a chest full of them until 11th or 12th lvl (or higher). Having magic items make saving throws vs Dragon's Breath (for example) would be useful in Monty Haul games where 'you win some, you lose some'. On the other hand, if you're 6th lvl and all you have is a Potion and a Scroll you've been holding for 2-3 levels, that seems slightly unfair.

5E suffers from the exact same problem as the 'non-Monty Haul' campaign with the inane 'Attunement' mechanic and making treasure nigh impossible to come by (thus defeating the very reason someone would become an Adventurer). Having 'super powers' in D&D, ala 5th Edition, isn't a fix. It's a lateral step into something that shouldn't exist whereby you're mixing genres, making it feel like an MMORPG instead of a traditional fantasy tabletop game. Or a Superheroes RPG.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on May 30, 2024, 11:26:17 PM5E suffers from the exact same problem as the 'non-Monty Haul' campaign with the inane 'Attunement' mechanic and making treasure nigh impossible to come by (thus defeating the very reason someone would become an Adventurer). Having 'super powers' in D&D, ala 5th Edition, isn't a fix. It's a lateral step into something that shouldn't exist whereby you're mixing genres, making it feel like an MMORPG instead of a traditional fantasy tabletop game. Or a Superheroes RPG.

I don't think 5e's design ever seriously considered the use of it for a "Hack the orcs, loot the tomb, and take the land" style of campaign. (Honestly, that phrasing would make a great name for a game!)

As far back as at least 3rd edition (I would say 2nd), D&D has been marketing itself more on the idea of the LOTR/Dragonlance/Baldur's Gate/R.A. Salvatore model of a band of accidental heroes coming together to save the day from the forces of evil. Going from personal experience, that was already the more common style by at least the late 90s/early 00s.

If that's what you expect your players to want to use the system for, then it makes a measure of sense to ditch the treasure tables and XP-for-gold. As far as the powers in 5e go, a lot of digital ink has been spilled on it, but I've never quite liked the idea of calling it a "superhero" game. That tends to imply that it takes influence from American cape comics, which is the one thing I don't really see evidence of in the system. The more likely influences are (definitely) videogames, and (I suspect) Shonen anime.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 06:01:45 PMI'm not claiming that I played AD&D entirely by the book. Like almost everyone else, I ignored weapon-vs-armor and the grappling rules and psionics and plenty of other stuff.

But yes, I did pay attention to treasure types and the intended frequency of magic items. I remember doing some statistics on the different treasure types back in middle school.

The point being that the frequency of magic items isn't a pure DM issue unrelated to the rules.

People are talking about the rules that are actually relevant to the number of magic items a PC is expected to have at a given level.  None of the rules you mention there is at all relevant to the actual topic.

You paid attention to the rules that would tend to add items.  Apparently, you did not pay attention to the rules that would tend to remove them like item saving throws.  Choosing to pay attention to one set of rules while ignoring the other is entirely a DM issue. 

You really are just incapable of discussing the actual issue at hand in good faith.